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  • Now that this storyline is over, we need to formally address the Madame Leota issue. The page is currently heavily speculative at the moment and we need to discuss how to handle it.

    Okay, here are the questions we need to ask:

    1. Was Madame Leota a member of the Coven?
    2. If so, was Madame Leota a part of the witches seen in The Eighth Witch?
    3. If so, that means Madame Leota was indeed a part of the witches seen in 7x19 and 7x20. We were only told that two witches died and that all of the witches were in HH.

    If we are going to say that Leota was one of the witches seen in 7x10, then yes she was present in 7x19 and 7x20 as far as we know. I originally had my doubts on this, but we were given no indication of her death or departure.

    So what does everyone else think?

      Preparing Editor Spell
    • Going by interviews, she was a member of the coven and was in The Eighth Witch. However, I think it is speculative to say she was in 719 and 720, when we see the women there, and her actress is not one of them. We don't know how the curse would have effected Leota anyway. I personally speculate Leota is the dead woman that was sent a chocolate box. It all fits, the woman is dead (because Leota is a ghost), the woman ran a flower shop (because flowers are commonly used in funerals and wakes), and the woman's last name was the name of the funeral parlor on Lost (because, again, Leota is a ghost).

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    • No discussion here. Leota was a member of the Coven, A&E confirmed it.

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    • Where do they confirm it?

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    • Shadowlord4001 wrote: Where do they confirm it?

      When they say that one of the new witches from the Coven comes from fairytales or the Disney lore.

      Luckily for us, only Leota comes from the Disney lore.

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    • I feel like that was only in reference to the episode in which she appeared. And because zelena took the pendant the ressurection failed and gothel had to find someone else. 

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    • That's not even a discutable point.

      "Will we be able to recognize any of these new witches?
      Kitsis: We'll definitely recognize a few of their names, absolutely. These are witches from iconic fairytales or Disney lore."

      source: http://www.tvguide.com/news/once-upon-a-time-bosses-lesbian-alice-robin-anastasia/

      The answer is straight and absolutely clear. Adding the series and the other interview... Leota is absolutely and positively a member of the Coven by 710. Aka she was sent to Seattle.

      Whatever happened next is the debatable point ^^

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    • Well we saw in Alices house when she was framed for murdering the witches that nick had drawn the covern symbol and only crossed out two out of the eight. so he only killed sage and the blind witch. We later saw ALL of the new coven members in the latest episode and NONE of them were leota. so personally i dont think leota was ressurected as zelena made to point to HIDE the amulet so gothel could not get it. That was the whole point of that episode. The showrunners made that interview in december and plus they have never fully been on board with their own continuity so i dont think that comment proves that leota was in the coven. The fact of the matter is we know for a fact that Nick did not kill and and her face was no among the new witches soooooooo.......

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    • Season Eight started out with so much promise, but it quickly fell apart when they tried to juggle three villains with three different motivations. It could have worked, but the way they went about it was poorly done, and what’s worse is that it would only have taken a few minutes to fix the problems.

      Somehow, have Weaver mention that Sage was a hedge witch and that they will never know who she really was. The big one is Leota though, and again, a very easy fix: Have the actress that plays Leota appear or have Gothel address a mysterious hooded figure as her. Honestly, the whole thing with Leota was really pointless. Gothel could have attempted to use Robin’s magic for something else. Actually, did we ever see what she used Victoria’s magic or life energy for? Leota seemed to just be fanservice or an attempt to cram in a character from a Disneyland Attraction.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote: Going by interviews, she was a member of the coven and was in The Eighth Witch. However, I think it is speculative to say she was in 719 and 720, when we see the women there, and her actress is not one of them. We don't know how the curse would have effected Leota anyway. I personally speculate Leota is the dead woman that was sent a chocolate box. It all fits, the woman is dead (because Leota is a ghost), the woman ran a flower show (because flowers are commonly used in funerals and wakes), and the woman's last name was the name of the funeral parlor on Lost (because, again, Leota is a ghost).

      This.

      Not the theory (which I do like if I say so myself), but. We can’t keep staying that one of the stunt women is Leota when none are Suzy Joachim (the actress?) and Nick was killing witches left and right. We keep listing her as present when the burden of proof is to prove that she’s in the episode. If things need a source on the wiki, then where is the source that one of them was Leota?

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    • Well the only thing I say is if we’re counting her for 7x10, we need to count her for those two until proven otherwise. I have to agree with Lady, nothing suggests she died or left the Coven. Now if we count her as a coven member but not necessarily as one in 7x10 that’s different.

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    • RedCoatOfficial wrote: Well the only thing I say is if we’re counting her for 7x10, we need to count her for those two until proven otherwise. I have to agree with Lady, nothing suggests she died or left the Coven. Now if we count her as a coven member but not necessarily as one in 7x10 that’s different.

      I would rather Leota be given an asterisk or a trivia note or something because it isn’t sourced and it being presented as fact unwavering. If it was, we wouldn’t have any disagreement.

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    • RedCoatOfficial wrote:
      Well the only thing I say is if we’re counting her for 7x10, we need to count her for those two until proven otherwise. I have to agree with Lady, nothing suggests she died or left the Coven. Now if we count her as a coven member but not necessarily as one in 7x10 that’s different.

      Going to the LWM could have wound up "killing" Leota, we don't know what sort of magic they may have used to revive her, but it may have not translated to the LWM with her staying alive. Thus my theory about the dead woman. Gothel obviously didn't care, as she somehow had replacement witches, for at least Sage, Hilda, and Drizella, so having one for Leota isn't that much of a stretch.

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    • I originally agreed with you guys. There was no direct proof that Leota was there. Butttt... after last night the Coven storyline ended and we were given no indication of Leota’s whereabouts. So if we believe she was with the witches in 7x10, then she was transported to HH and took on cursed persona. I wish we could get confirmation on all of this from the writers.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Going by interviews, she was a member of the coven and was in The Eighth Witch. However, I think it is speculative to say she was in 719 and 720, when we see the women there, and her actress is not one of them. We don't know how the curse would have effected Leota anyway. I personally speculate Leota is the dead woman that was sent a chocolate box. It all fits, the woman is dead (because Leota is a ghost), the woman ran a flower show (because flowers are commonly used in funerals and wakes), and the woman's last name was the name of the funeral parlor on Lost (because, again, Leota is a ghost).

      Exactly!!

      We can say that the dead woman who was sent a chocolate box was just the Dark Curse-explanation of Leota's whereabouts.

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    • CadoDoan wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Going by interviews, she was a member of the coven and was in The Eighth Witch. However, I think it is speculative to say she was in 719 and 720, when we see the women there, and her actress is not one of them. We don't know how the curse would have effected Leota anyway. I personally speculate Leota is the dead woman that was sent a chocolate box. It all fits, the woman is dead (because Leota is a ghost), the woman ran a flower show (because flowers are commonly used in funerals and wakes), and the woman's last name was the name of the funeral parlor on Lost (because, again, Leota is a ghost).

      Exactly!!

      We can say that the dead woman who was sent a chocolate box was just the Dark Curse-explanation of Leota's whereabouts.

      That makes sense. I agree on that.

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    • Who was this dead woman again and what happened? I only vaguely recall

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    • I think until we get direct word from the writers we can't say one way or another. Did resurrecting Leota give her a new vessel? She doesn't necessarily have to look the same as she did in the crystal, does she? We also never even saw or heard it confirmed she was resuurected. Maybe it was too much trouble.

      The fact that Jack didn't have her on his list would make me think she wasn't killed by him, for sure. Which would mean if she was in HH she would be one of the stunt actresses. But then that leaves it open as to who the dead woman was. Since she was selling flowers, it makes me think she was definitely someone close to Gothel. (Also, Seraphina didn't have any major part to play...what was that about?)

      This whole second half of season 7 has made me feel like I'm only seeing fragments of the story...I've felt kind of dazed by it. Seasons 5-6 were like this too, but at least I had a pretty good idea what was going on. I've enjoyed it an all, it's just...what the heck?!

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    • Saintfighteraqua wrote: I think until we get direct word from the writers we can't say one way or another. Did resurrecting Leota give her a new vessel? She doesn't necessarily have to look the same as she did in the crystal, does she? We also never even saw or heard it confirmed she was resuurected. Maybe it was too much trouble.

      The fact that Jack didn't have her on his list would make me think she wasn't killed by him, for sure. Which would mean if she was in HH she would be one of the stunt actresses. But then that leaves it open as to who the dead woman was. Since she was selling flowers, it makes me think she was definitely someone close to Gothel. (Also, Seraphina didn't have any major part to play...what was that about?)

      Nick probably had all the witches in HH on his list but he was stopped before he could finish them.

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    • Well Leota was in the coven but got trapped in the ball. I'm assuming that when Gothel stopped the procedure, Leota remained in the ball. Gothel replaced her so technically only Sage and Hilda died from the coven. Leota was replaced. 

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    • CadoDoan wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Going by interviews, she was a member of the coven and was in The Eighth Witch. However, I think it is speculative to say she was in 719 and 720, when we see the women there, and her actress is not one of them. We don't know how the curse would have effected Leota anyway. I personally speculate Leota is the dead woman that was sent a chocolate box. It all fits, the woman is dead (because Leota is a ghost), the woman ran a flower show (because flowers are commonly used in funerals and wakes), and the woman's last name was the name of the funeral parlor on Lost (because, again, Leota is a ghost).

      Exactly!!

      We can say that the dead woman who was sent a chocolate box was just the Dark Curse-explanation of Leota's whereabouts.

      Unofficially, yes, that's a good theory. Officially though, nothing in the show supports that enough so we can't use it :/

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    • RedCoatOfficial wrote:

      CadoDoan wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Going by interviews, she was a member of the coven and was in The Eighth Witch. However, I think it is speculative to say she was in 719 and 720, when we see the women there, and her actress is not one of them. We don't know how the curse would have effected Leota anyway. I personally speculate Leota is the dead woman that was sent a chocolate box. It all fits, the woman is dead (because Leota is a ghost), the woman ran a flower show (because flowers are commonly used in funerals and wakes), and the woman's last name was the name of the funeral parlor on Lost (because, again, Leota is a ghost).

      Exactly!!

      We can say that the dead woman who was sent a chocolate box was just the Dark Curse-explanation of Leota's whereabouts.

      Unofficially, yes, that's a good theory. Officially though, nothing in the show supports that enough so we can't use it :/

      What we need is it to be comfirmed.

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    • Anyways, so... From most of what I read...

      Leota was cursed and sent to Seattle in 710, like the rest of the Coven. However, as we do not know what happened to her during her cursed time, we don't consider her as present in the events of 719/720.

      Best way to please everyone, until confirmation by a writer, I think. So, let's go with that.

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    • I’m really thinking the show has begun to have more evidence against the writers than towards it in the case of Leota.

      What we know:

      1. Leota wasn’t resurected via Ressurection Amulet.

      Zelena has kept the Amulet the entire time, even with her during early on in the Curse. The likelihood of her being ressurected another way is speculative at best.

      2. Leota was recruited after Drizella.

      The specific wording and the timeline in recruiting Drizella and recruiting Leota gives the impression that Leota was recruited afterwards and unless we add speculation that a Coven witch dropped dead and Gothel didn’t want to raise her, then its possible that Leota logically would have been the Eighth Witch. And seeing that the Eight Witch was never recruited until Regina, I think it’s really hard to keep Leota around.

      Not saying the decision settled upon will change, just saying writer confirmation is really necessary.

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    • Eskaver wrote: I’m really thinking the show has begun to have more evidence against the writers than towards it in the case of Leota.

      What we know:

      1. Leota wasn’t resurected via Ressurection Amulet.

      Zelena has kept the Amulet the entire time, even with her during early on in the Curse. The likelihood of her being ressurected another way is speculative at best.

      2. Leota was recruited after Drizella.

      The specific wording and the timeline in recruiting Drizella and recruiting Leota gives the impression that Leota was recruited afterwards and unless we add speculation that a Coven witch dropped dead and Gothel didn’t want to raise her, then its possible that Leota logically would have been the Eighth Witch. And seeing that the Eight Witch was never recruited until Regina, I think it’s really hard to keep Leota around.

      Not saying the decision settled upon will change, just saying writer confirmation is really necessary.

      We have a writer confirmation (Kitsis, more importantly) about Leota being in the Coven.

      The answer to this interview is clear and very straightforward.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Lady Junky wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: I’m really thinking the show has begun to have more evidence against the writers than towards it in the case of Leota.

      What we know:

      1. Leota wasn’t resurected via Ressurection Amulet.

      Zelena has kept the Amulet the entire time, even with her during early on in the Curse. The likelihood of her being ressurected another way is speculative at best.

      2. Leota was recruited after Drizella.

      The specific wording and the timeline in recruiting Drizella and recruiting Leota gives the impression that Leota was recruited afterwards and unless we add speculation that a Coven witch dropped dead and Gothel didn’t want to raise her, then its possible that Leota logically would have been the Eighth Witch. And seeing that the Eight Witch was never recruited until Regina, I think it’s really hard to keep Leota around.

      Not saying the decision settled upon will change, just saying writer confirmation is really necessary.

      We have a writer confirmation (Kitsis, more importantly) about Leota being in the Coven.

      The answer to this interview is clear and very straightforward.

      Not really.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: I’m really thinking the show has begun to have more evidence against the writers than towards it in the case of Leota.

      What we know:

      1. Leota wasn’t resurected via Ressurection Amulet.

      Zelena has kept the Amulet the entire time, even with her during early on in the Curse. The likelihood of her being ressurected another way is speculative at best.

      2. Leota was recruited after Drizella.

      The specific wording and the timeline in recruiting Drizella and recruiting Leota gives the impression that Leota was recruited afterwards and unless we add speculation that a Coven witch dropped dead and Gothel didn’t want to raise her, then its possible that Leota logically would have been the Eighth Witch. And seeing that the Eight Witch was never recruited until Regina, I think it’s really hard to keep Leota around.

      Not saying the decision settled upon will change, just saying writer confirmation is really necessary.

      We have a writer confirmation (Kitsis, more importantly) about Leota being in the Coven.

      The answer to this interview is clear and very straightforward.

      Not really.

      "Will we be able to recognize any of these new witches?
      Kitsis: We'll definitely recognize a few of their names, absolutely. These are witches from iconic fairytales or Disney lore."

      source: http://www.tvguide.com/news/once-upon-a-time-bosses-lesbian-alice-robin-anastasia/

      "We'll definitely" + "absolutely".

      So yeah, I really don't see how this answer is not absolutely clear and straightforward.

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    • Absolutely clear is “Leota”. Recognizing Leota as Sisney doesn’t mean that she joined the Coven/ was ressurected.

      Every Coven witch we have seen in HH in any capacit6 and/or with the tattoo. Plus in-show confirmation for Hilda and Andrea. Even with Seraphina.

      But Leota is the only one (barring Luanne Hoofs Drawlar being her) that hasn’t been mentioned or seen past her recruitment and failed resurrection.

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    • Eskaver wrote: Absolutely clear is “Leota”. Recognizing Leota as Sisney doesn’t mean that she joined the Coven/ was ressurected.

      Every Coven witch we have seen in HH in any capacit6 and/or with the tattoo. Plus in-show confirmation for Hilda and Andrea. Even with Seraphina.

      But Leota is the only one (barring Luanne Hoofs Drawlar being her) that hasn’t been mentioned or seen past her recruitment and failed resurrection.

      Which mean that something happened to her (or not) in Seattle.

      Does not change that they said pretty clearly that she was among the "new witches" of Coven, aka the ones we see in 710.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: I’m really thinking the show has begun to have more evidence against the writers than towards it in the case of Leota.

      What we know:

      1. Leota wasn’t resurected via Ressurection Amulet.

      Zelena has kept the Amulet the entire time, even with her during early on in the Curse. The likelihood of her being ressurected another way is speculative at best.

      2. Leota was recruited after Drizella.

      The specific wording and the timeline in recruiting Drizella and recruiting Leota gives the impression that Leota was recruited afterwards and unless we add speculation that a Coven witch dropped dead and Gothel didn’t want to raise her, then its possible that Leota logically would have been the Eighth Witch. And seeing that the Eight Witch was never recruited until Regina, I think it’s really hard to keep Leota around.

      Not saying the decision settled upon will change, just saying writer confirmation is really necessary.

      We have a writer confirmation (Kitsis, more importantly) about Leota being in the Coven.

      The answer to this interview is clear and very straightforward.

      Not really.
      "Will we be able to recognize any of these new witches?

      Kitsis: We'll definitely recognize a few of their names, absolutely. These are witches from iconic fairytales or Disney lore."

      source: http://www.tvguide.com/news/once-upon-a-time-bosses-lesbian-alice-robin-anastasia/

      "We'll definitely" + "absolutely".

      So yeah, I really don't see how this answer is not absolutely clear and straightforward.

      I agree that Leota is a member of the Coven, but to play devil's advocate and use your own "exactly what they said" argument against you, Lady, Kitsis said "iconic fairytales or Disney lore". Meaning those two options don't necessarily co-exist; one, the other, or both may occur. We already have Hilda as an iconic fairytale witch, so this doesn't necessarily confirm Leota.

      That said, we aren't going to get a straight answer probably ever (at least not in the foreseeable future). The writers are particularly stepping up their "dodging questions"/"half-answers" game on Twitter this season, so even the chances of getting an out-of-universe confirmation are slim to none. They heavily indicated Leota is a Coven member, we don't have any particular evidence that she isn't (just lack of strong evidence that she is), we should just go with it. It might not be perfectly encyclopedic, but the show isn't giving us much to work with anymore. There are a lot of things this season left to the fans' interpretation; we are fans, we should interpret.

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    • DatNuttyKid wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: I’m really thinking the show has begun to have more evidence against the writers than towards it in the case of Leota.

      What we know:

      1. Leota wasn’t resurected via Ressurection Amulet.

      Zelena has kept the Amulet the entire time, even with her during early on in the Curse. The likelihood of her being ressurected another way is speculative at best.

      2. Leota was recruited after Drizella.

      The specific wording and the timeline in recruiting Drizella and recruiting Leota gives the impression that Leota was recruited afterwards and unless we add speculation that a Coven witch dropped dead and Gothel didn’t want to raise her, then its possible that Leota logically would have been the Eighth Witch. And seeing that the Eight Witch was never recruited until Regina, I think it’s really hard to keep Leota around.

      Not saying the decision settled upon will change, just saying writer confirmation is really necessary.

      We have a writer confirmation (Kitsis, more importantly) about Leota being in the Coven.

      The answer to this interview is clear and very straightforward.

      Not really.
      "Will we be able to recognize any of these new witches?

      Kitsis: We'll definitely recognize a few of their names, absolutely. These are witches from iconic fairytales or Disney lore."

      source: http://www.tvguide.com/news/once-upon-a-time-bosses-lesbian-alice-robin-anastasia/

      "We'll definitely" + "absolutely".

      So yeah, I really don't see how this answer is not absolutely clear and straightforward.

      I agree that Leota is a member of the Coven, but to play devil's advocate and use your own "exactly what they said" argument against you, Lady, Kitsis said "iconic fairytales or Disney lore". Meaning those two options don't necessarily co-exist; one, the other, or both may occur. We already have Hilda as an iconic fairytale witch, so this doesn't necessarily confirm Leota.

      That said, we aren't going to get a straight answer probably ever (at least not in the foreseeable future). The writers are particularly stepping up their "dodging questions"/"half-answers" game on Twitter this season, so even the chances of getting an out-of-universe confirmation are slim to none. They heavily indicated Leota is a Coven member, we don't have any particular evidence that she isn't (just lack of strong evidence that she is), we should just go with it. It might not be perfectly encyclopedic, but the show isn't giving us much to work with anymore. There are a lot of things this season left to the fans' interpretation; we are fans, we should interpret.

      Oh please.

      There is no need to try to play on one word here. In the context of that sentence, it obviously meant that some were coming from iconic fairytales and some from the Disney-lore.

      We all know it, so let's not even try to argue over that.

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    • Well I think she was in the Coven too. But... it's no coincidence that she's the only witch anyone really debates about. No one questions Hilda and Sage or Seraphina's involvement. It's only Leota.

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    • RedCoatOfficial wrote: Well I think she was in the Coven too. But... it's no coincidence that she's the only witch anyone really debates about. No one questions Hilda and Sage or Seraphina's involvement. It's only Leota.

      Of course, it is not. Their writing is full of flaws - like always - and they confirmed half of stuff with post-interviews.

      But that's not like they never did it before, so :/

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    • So last night during my catch-up marathon I saw secret Garden and I have to bring up a point Edkaver already brought up. After Leota and Gothel fled, Zelena kept the amulet. So how can we be sure she regained he corporeal form?

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    • RedCoatOfficial wrote: So last night during my catch-up marathon I saw secret Garden and I have to bring up a point Edkaver already brought up. After Leota and Gothel fled, Zelena kept the amulet. So how can we be sure she regained he corporeal form?

      Because we have an interview proving it. And it comes from Kitsis.

      As far as we know, the show never said this amulet was the only way for her to regain a body; and they never said that she never got back one. Also, they had 7 years between 711 and 710 to get her back a body. Never said it was impossible without the amulet, and we have a source backing up her presence in 710.

      So, can we just consider this part of the discussion "over"?

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    • RedCoatOfficial wrote: So last night during my catch-up marathon I saw secret Garden and I have to bring up a point Eskaver already brought up. After Leota and Gothel fled, Zelena kept the amulet. So how can we be sure she regained he corporeal form?

      We can’t. Clearly she was a ball in a Hood (Kidding, but it’s unknown if and how she regained corporeal form.).

      That is why I pose the question about her membership as the writers literally just said “Hey, this is Leota. We need to resurrect her into the Coven” and didn’t follow up on that.

      However, it doesn’t change much on the wiki just the corporeal form part.

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    • I forgot about this thread but we never really reached a conclusion. A lot of people seem to agree on counting her as a coven member but a lot of people think it's too presumptuous to say that she was revived and among the witches seen in 7x10 and/or 7x19/20. And this isn't really that big of a problem until we can get some confirmation (hopefully) in the future. I mean we count Anastasia as a member and she left before they actually did the ceremony and hood stuff.

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    • Any more opinions?

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    • RedCoatOfficial wrote:
      Any more opinions?

      I stand by my opinons from before.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:

      RedCoatOfficial wrote:
      Any more opinions?

      I stand by my opinons from before.

      I’m thinking maybe call her likely in the coven, we can’t be sure but there is some evidence for her, we can’t be sure that she wasn’t a ball in a hood though, maybe say Leota likely joined the coven and was sent to Hiperion Heights where it is unknown what happened to her.

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    • I feel like she would be smart enough not to go along with Gothel's plan once she found out what it was. But maybe being a tree is preferable to being a ghost in a ball. 

      So the main issues seems to be:


      a. Was she ever revived


      b. If so, did she travel to TLWM


      c. If yes to above, what happened to her, since she didn't seem to be among the women in the Coven towards the end.


      I think Zelena and Robin stealing the amulet away was a hint towards her not being revived. But the people over the show seemed to confirm she was in one of the hoods, so... Does anything actually official say she was revived or are we going purely on what writer's have said outside of the show, press notes etc?

      If she somehow got a new body, she could have been among the final group. 

      I'm still so bitter at how awesome the coven started and how fast it went downhill.

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    • Saintfighteraqua wrote: Does anything actually official say she was revived or are we going purely on what writer's have said outside of the show, press notes etc?

      If she somehow got a new body, she could have been among the final group. 

      1. We're going purely by the hints from writers that she's in the coven, which weren't even clear themselves.
      2. There is one actress who looks similar enough to be a recast of Suzy Joachim, plus we only ever saw her in a ball so. But that's completely theoretical.
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    • Did we ever reach a consensus on this?

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    • Eh, the votes are 7-4 that she’s in the Coven, it’s been months so I’d say yes.

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
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