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  • So back last year, Adam confirmed that Anastasia the Red Queen was indeed not Cinderella's stepsister in canon. However, it was revealed in Season 7 that there are actually multiple storybooks out there, with different versions of characters. And with a new Anastasia now coming to Once, I can't help but think about the old one, because the similarities are just too much.

    • Both have the name Anastasia.
    • Both have cruel mothers.
    • Both wear a pink dress.
    • Both had a stepsister.
    • A stepsister whom the Prince chose over her.
    • They also have a biological sister (her mother said something like "At least I still have your sisters."
    • Both of them fall in love with a man who their mother doesn't approve of.

    I mean she literally is Anastasia Tremaine! XD

    So my question for everyone is... do you think it might still somehow happen? I mean we have no clue how she ended up in the Enchanted Forest. Which heck, was it even actually stated which EF she was in during her scenes?

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    • This thread should be closed as we know for a fact that it is not the case. No real need to discuss on that ^^

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    • Anastasia lived in Sherwood Forest that had Robin (that we know) and Maleficent down the road.

      Anastasia left EF several years before the Dark Curse with Will Scarlet, etc, etc.

      NEF: Let's say 1 month = 7 years or so.

      Henry was born before Ella's great, great, great, great, great, great, etc grandmother was born. 

      Tremaine's daughter is not blonde, 14 years old, and in stasis several years after Henry's birth.

      But even if she's from NEF5000, she's not related to any Tremaine and it's just wishful thinking. Having sisters and stepsisters is common, having a social-climbing mother is common.

      Long story short, it's not possible. As I said elsewhere, people do just share the same first name. Happens all the time.

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    • Eskaver wrote: Anastasia lived in Sherwood Forest that had Robin (that we know) and Maleficent down the road.

      Anastasia left EF several years before the Dark Curse with Will Scarlet, etc, etc.

      NEF: Let's say 1 month = 7 years or so.

      Henry was born before Ella's great, great, great, great, great, great, etc grandmother was born. 

      Tremaine's daughter is not blonde, 14 years old, and in stasis several years after Henry's birth.

      Long story short, it's not possible. As I said elsewhere, people do just share the same first name. Happens all the time.

      Like I stated on the other thread, I understand that people share names. However, names and entire backstories and stuff is not just an every day thing. That's one thing that annoys me when Adam and Eddy are confronted about this. They act like fans are crazy for bringing it up, but as I stated above, there are waaay too many similarities between the two.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: Anastasia lived in Sherwood Forest that had Robin (that we know) and Maleficent down the road.

      Anastasia left EF several years before the Dark Curse with Will Scarlet, etc, etc.

      NEF: Let's say 1 month = 7 years or so.

      Henry was born before Ella's great, great, great, great, great, great, etc grandmother was born. 

      Tremaine's daughter is not blonde, 14 years old, and in stasis several years after Henry's birth.

      Long story short, it's not possible. As I said elsewhere, people do just share the same first name. Happens all the time.

      Like I stated on the other thread, I understand that people share names. However, names and entire backstories and stuff is not just an every day thing. That's one thing that annoys me when Adam and Eddy are confronted about this. They act like fans are crazy for bringing it up, but as I stated above, there are waaay too many similarities between the two.

      It's because....Anastasia isn't related to Cinderella. Simply, just that. They think it's odd because they know she isn't and that they have said so numerous times.

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    • The similarities are because they are both based on Anastasia Tremaine. Just as Jessy's Cinderella and Dania's Cinderella are both based on Cinderella. It doesn't make them connected other than the fact that they are based on Disney's Anastasia, in other words.

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    • Adam and Eddy's quote from the podcast Lady sent me: "No Wonderland the spin-off remains canon and remains all existing in the OUAT universe, but we're-just like our Cinderella in this is coming from this sort of new realm, when we reveal our Anastasia, who she is, what happened to her, what her story is, it's tied to this Cinderella, whereas the Emma Rigby one would've been tied more to the Jessy Schram." So they basically seem to be admitting that she is indeed based on Anastasia from Cinderella in someway. I don't know exactly how, and they confirmed in the past she wasn't but they are definitely acknowledging here that she's got many similarities with Cinderella!Anastasia.

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    • They were saying that Emma's Ana would be tied to Jessy's Ella (if Ana was Ella's stepsister), not Dania's as Emma's and Jessy's character are from the same EF. They aren't saying that they are connected.

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    • Let's put it this way because I think everyone is talking about different things:

      Anastasia is very likely to be a Cinderella's stepsister. It is possible she is from a different realm or maybe even the same realm like how Briar Rose and Aurora were both Sleeping Beauty, but the implication is definitely that she is somehow involved in a story similar to Cinderella's.

      However, she is definitely not Ashleyrella or Jacinderella's stepsister. The former has Clorinda while the latter has a new Anastasia and the timeline does not line up for either. Furthermore, both Lady Tremaines are played by actresses who look nothing like Anastasia's mother.

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    • Yeah, which is why my comment about NEF5000 is there.

      A & E said that (if she was the Wicked Stepsister) she would be tied to Jessy's Cinderella because Emma's Ana is literally from the same EF as Jessy's Cinderella. So, A & E squash Emma's Ana from being related to any Cinderella.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Yeah, which is why my comment about NEF5000 is there.

      A & E said that (if she was the Wicked Stepsister) she would be tied to Jessy's Cinderella because Emma's Ana is literally from the same EF as Jessy's Cinderella. So, A & E squash Emma's Ana from being related to any Cinderella.

      But she is related to a Cinderella or Cinderella-like story, just not Jessy's or Dania's Cinderella.

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    • DatNuttyKid wrote:
      Let's put it this way because I think everyone is talking about different things:

      Anastasia is very likely to be a Cinderella's stepsister. It is possible she is from a different realm or maybe even the same realm like how Briar Rose and Aurora were both Sleeping Beauty, but the implication is definitely that she is somehow involved in a story similar to Cinderella's.

      However, she is definitely not Ashleyrella or Jacinderella's stepsister. The former has Clorinda while the latter has a new Anastasia and the timeline does not line up for either. Furthermore, both Lady Tremaines are played by actresses who look nothing like Anastasia's mother.

      100% agree with all of this.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Yeah, which is why my comment about NEF5000 is there.

      A & E said that (if she was the Wicked Stepsister) she would be tied to Jessy's Cinderella because Emma's Ana is literally from the same EF as Jessy's Cinderella. So, A & E squash Emma's Ana from being related to any Cinderella.

      But she is related to a Cinderella or Cinderella-like story, just not Jessy's or Dania's Cinderella.

      Cinderella like story (not the first).

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Yeah, which is why my comment about NEF5000 is there.

      A & E said that (if she was the Wicked Stepsister) she would be tied to Jessy's Cinderella because Emma's Ana is literally from the same EF as Jessy's Cinderella. So, A & E squash Emma's Ana from being related to any Cinderella.

      But she is related to a Cinderella or Cinderella-like story, just not Jessy's or Dania's Cinderella.
      Cinderella like story (not the first).

      It could be another Cinderella story, her stepsister could be named Ashfool (I believe that's the translation of the Grimm Brother's name for the story). So Ashfool has stepsisters Anastasia and Drizella in EF, while Cinderella has stepsisters Clorinda and Tisbe in EF. Meanwhile, Cinderella has stepsisters Anastasia and Drizella in NEF.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Yeah, which is why my comment about NEF5000 is there.

      A & E said that (if she was the Wicked Stepsister) she would be tied to Jessy's Cinderella because Emma's Ana is literally from the same EF as Jessy's Cinderella. So, A & E squash Emma's Ana from being related to any Cinderella.

      But she is related to a Cinderella or Cinderella-like story, just not Jessy's or Dania's Cinderella.
      Cinderella like story (not the first).
      It could be another Cinderella story, her stepsister could be named Ashfool (I believe that's the translation of the Grimm Brother's name for the story). So Ashfool has stepsisters Anastasia and Drizella in EF, while Cinderella has stepsisters Clorinda and Tisbe in EF. Meanwhile, Cinderella has stepsisters Anastasia and Drizella in NEF.

      Could be. Though Emma's Anastasia has more than one sister as her mother says "Sisters" (likely not including her stepsister).

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    • I would honestly be fine with her being Anastasia Tremaine but not like related to Cinderella specifically, if that makes sense. Like how Regina was Ursula, but reversed, in that she actually is the character but isn't in the story.

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    • It has now been confirmed that she is indeed Anastasia Tremaine from Cinderella. I'm assuming she is just an adaption of the character but isn't Cinderella's stepsister. But I guess we need to get an official clarification.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      It has now been confirmed that she is indeed Anastasia Tremaine from Cinderella. I'm assuming she is just an adaption of the character but isn't Cinderella's stepsister. But I guess we need to get an official clarification.

      Adapted from the same fairy tale. So, She's not necessarily Anastasia Tremaine. Technicalities.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:
      It has now been confirmed that she is indeed Anastasia Tremaine from Cinderella. I'm assuming she is just an adaption of the character but isn't Cinderella's stepsister. But I guess we need to get an official clarification.
      Adapted from the same fairy tale. So, She's not necessarily Anastasia Tremaine. Technicalities.


      Yep, so technically we should not count her for the Disney version.

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    • How I see it...

      Both Anas are adaptations of the Wicked Stepsister, but only one is Anastasia Tremaine. 

      Anastasia (Once) is adapted from the Wicked Stepsister and most certainly based on Anatasia Tremaine, being the daughter to Lady Tremaine and sister to Drizella and stepsister to Cinderella.

      Anastasia (Wonderland) is adapted from the Wicked Stepsister and possibly based on Anastasia Tremaine. But that's about it. She isn't Lady Tremaine's daughter, Cinderella's stepsister, and there's no known Drizella in EF.

      The writers could even come out to directly say "from the Disney movie", but even as a higher authority, the only similar thing to the Disney movie is the first name.

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    • I don't think this is even really a discussion. Her name is literally Anastasia and most of her similarities come from Disney. This is just the same case as Ursula, in that she isn't connected to Cinderella, like Ursula (the main enemy of Ariel in Disney) never even meets Ariel.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      How I see it...

      Both Anas are adaptations of the Wicked Stepsister, but only one is Anastasia Tremaine. 

      Anastasia (Once) is adapted from the Wicked Stepsister and most certainly based on Anatasia Tremaine, being the daughter to Lady Tremaine and sister to Drizella and stepsister to Cinderella.

      Anastasia (Wonderland) is adapted from the Wicked Stepsister and possibly based on Anastasia Tremaine. But that's about it. She isn't Lady Tremaine's daughter, Cinderella's stepsister, and there's no known Drizella in EF.

      The writers could even come out to directly say "from the Disney movie", but even as a higher authority, the only similar thing to the Disney movie is the first name.


      And we're back to what we were saying with Clorinda and Tisbe. They never said they have based her on the Disney version. Similar case here.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:
      How I see it...

      Both Anas are adaptations of the Wicked Stepsister, but only one is Anastasia Tremaine. 

      Anastasia (Once) is adapted from the Wicked Stepsister and most certainly based on Anatasia Tremaine, being the daughter to Lady Tremaine and sister to Drizella and stepsister to Cinderella.

      Anastasia (Wonderland) is adapted from the Wicked Stepsister and possibly based on Anastasia Tremaine. But that's about it. She isn't Lady Tremaine's daughter, Cinderella's stepsister, and there's no known Drizella in EF.

      The writers could even come out to directly say "from the Disney movie", but even as a higher authority, the only similar thing to the Disney movie is the first name.


      And we're back to what we were saying with Clorinda and Tisbe. They never said they have based her on the Disney version. Similar case here.

      This is a 110% different case that makes 0 sense. This would be like arguing that Drizella isn't based on the Disney character but just the book. Her name is Anastasia. That alone is enough to mean she is based on Disney. There was no Anastasia in the original fairytale.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:
      How I see it...

      Both Anas are adaptations of the Wicked Stepsister, but only one is Anastasia Tremaine. 

      Anastasia (Once) is adapted from the Wicked Stepsister and most certainly based on Anatasia Tremaine, being the daughter to Lady Tremaine and sister to Drizella and stepsister to Cinderella.

      Anastasia (Wonderland) is adapted from the Wicked Stepsister and possibly based on Anastasia Tremaine. But that's about it. She isn't Lady Tremaine's daughter, Cinderella's stepsister, and there's no known Drizella in EF.

      The writers could even come out to directly say "from the Disney movie", but even as a higher authority, the only similar thing to the Disney movie is the first name.


      And we're back to what we were saying with Clorinda and Tisbe. They never said they have based her on the Disney version. Similar case here.

      This is a 110% different case that makes 0 sense. This would be like arguing that Drizella isn't based on the Disney character but just the book. Her name is Anastasia. That alone is enough to mean she is based on Disney. There was no Anastasia in the original fairytale.


      And so? Her name could just be a nod to the Disney film. Nothing more. Would not be the first time.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      I don't think this is even really a discussion. Her name is literally Anastasia and most of her similarities come from Disney. This is just the same case as Ursula, in that she isn't connected to Cinderella, like Ursula (the main enemy of Ariel in Disney) never even meets Ariel.

      Let's break it down for Red Queen.

      What is in the fairytale? Two unnnamed stepsisters. Cinderella story. Unnamed Stepmother. 

      What's in the Disney film? Name: Anastasia and sister Drizella. Cinderella story. Lady Tremaine.

      What is in Once? Name: Anastasia, 2+ unnamed sisters. Cinderella story (assumed). unnamed Stepmother.

      I guess it's up to personal opinion. The writers could have easily said "movie" and we'd be done with this, lol.

      The name was probably a nod. (The writers could have easily made Ana a stepsister as this was back in season 3, before Ashley's reappearance.)

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Tysonjackson wrote:
      I don't think this is even really a discussion. Her name is literally Anastasia and most of her similarities come from Disney. This is just the same case as Ursula, in that she isn't connected to Cinderella, like Ursula (the main enemy of Ariel in Disney) never even meets Ariel.

      Let's break it down for Red Queen.

      What is in the fairytale? Two unnnamed stepsisters. Cinderella story. Unnamed Stepmother. 

      What's in the Disney film? Name: Anastasia and sister Drizella. Cinderella story. Lady Tremaine.

      What is in Once? Name: Anastasia, 2+ unnamed sisters. Cinderella story. unnamed Stepmother.

      I guess it's up to personal opinion. The writers could have easily said "movie" and we'd be done with this, lol.

      The name was probably a nod. (The writers could have easily made Ana a stepsister as this was back in season 3, before Ashley's reappearance.)

      I just don't really see where we need to argue this though. In the book there were just stepsisters. All of the characterization placed into Anastasia comes from the Disney film. The pink dress, her name, her relationship with Will/Baker, etc.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:
      I don't think this is even really a discussion. Her name is literally Anastasia and most of her similarities come from Disney. This is just the same case as Ursula, in that she isn't connected to Cinderella, like Ursula (the main enemy of Ariel in Disney) never even meets Ariel.
      Let's break it down for Red Queen.

      What is in the fairytale? Two unnnamed stepsisters. Cinderella story. Unnamed Stepmother. 

      What's in the Disney film? Name: Anastasia and sister Drizella. Cinderella story. Lady Tremaine.

      What is in Once? Name: Anastasia, 2+ unnamed sisters. Cinderella story (assumed). unnamed Stepmother.

      I guess it's up to personal opinion. The writers could have easily said "movie" and we'd be done with this, lol.

      The name was probably a nod. (The writers could have easily made Ana a stepsister as this was back in season 3, before Ashley's reappearance.)


      And the only real point from the Disney film is her name being Anastasia. Could be a nod. Her mother is not Lady Tremaine, her sisters are not Cinderella or Drizella. Etc...

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      Tysonjackson wrote:
      I don't think this is even really a discussion. Her name is literally Anastasia and most of her similarities come from Disney. This is just the same case as Ursula, in that she isn't connected to Cinderella, like Ursula (the main enemy of Ariel in Disney) never even meets Ariel.
      Let's break it down for Red Queen.

      What is in the fairytale? Two unnnamed stepsisters. Cinderella story. Unnamed Stepmother. 

      What's in the Disney film? Name: Anastasia and sister Drizella. Cinderella story. Lady Tremaine.

      What is in Once? Name: Anastasia, 2+ unnamed sisters. Cinderella story. unnamed Stepmother.

      I guess it's up to personal opinion. The writers could have easily said "movie" and we'd be done with this, lol.

      The name was probably a nod. (The writers could have easily made Ana a stepsister as this was back in season 3, before Ashley's reappearance.)

      I just don't really see where we need to argue this though. In the book there were just stepsisters. All of the characterization placed into Anastasia comes from the Disney film. The pink dress, her name, her relationship with Will/Baker, etc.


      Her relationship with her Will/Baker has zero importance here. As we pointed it out during Clorinda/Tisbe discussion, it is not directly an adaptation. If the argument is not enough on one discussion, it can't be enough for this one - with even less arguments in favor of the Red Queen.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:
      I don't think this is even really a discussion. Her name is literally Anastasia and most of her similarities come from Disney. This is just the same case as Ursula, in that she isn't connected to Cinderella, like Ursula (the main enemy of Ariel in Disney) never even meets Ariel.
      Let's break it down for Red Queen.

      What is in the fairytale? Two unnnamed stepsisters. Cinderella story. Unnamed Stepmother. 

      What's in the Disney film? Name: Anastasia and sister Drizella. Cinderella story. Lady Tremaine.

      What is in Once? Name: Anastasia, 2+ unnamed sisters. Cinderella story (assumed). unnamed Stepmother.

      I guess it's up to personal opinion. The writers could have easily said "movie" and we'd be done with this, lol.

      The name was probably a nod. (The writers could have easily made Ana a stepsister as this was back in season 3, before Ashley's reappearance.)


      And the only real point from the Disney film is her name being Anastasia. Could be a nod. Her mother is not Lady Tremaine, her sisters are not Cinderella or Drizella. Etc...

      We don't know their names. For all we know there were two Cinderellas lol. But we do know there was no Drizella in the OG EF so how do we know her sister wasn't Drizella?

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:
      I don't think this is even really a discussion. Her name is literally Anastasia and most of her similarities come from Disney. This is just the same case as Ursula, in that she isn't connected to Cinderella, like Ursula (the main enemy of Ariel in Disney) never even meets Ariel.
      Let's break it down for Red Queen.

      What is in the fairytale? Two unnnamed stepsisters. Cinderella story. Unnamed Stepmother. 

      What's in the Disney film? Name: Anastasia and sister Drizella. Cinderella story. Lady Tremaine.

      What is in Once? Name: Anastasia, 2+ unnamed sisters. Cinderella story (assumed). unnamed Stepmother.

      I guess it's up to personal opinion. The writers could have easily said "movie" and we'd be done with this, lol.

      The name was probably a nod. (The writers could have easily made Ana a stepsister as this was back in season 3, before Ashley's reappearance.)


      And the only real point from the Disney film is her name being Anastasia. Could be a nod. Her mother is not Lady Tremaine, her sisters are not Cinderella or Drizella. Etc...

      We don't know their names. For all we know there were two Cinderellas lol. But we do know there was no Drizella in the OG EF so how do we know her sister wasn't Drizella?


      The question is not to prove that her sister was not Drizella, but to prove that she is Drizella. That's how proof work ^^

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    • She said both Anastasia's. There wasn't an Anastasia in the fairytale. That's from Disney. I mean, isn't that enough proof alone? You don't always have to argue everything you don't agree with, Lady.

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    • So to keep this simple

      • It's Anastasia - Tyson, Cado and seemingly Lily but not certain.
      • It's just a stepsister - Lady and Eskaver.
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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      She said both Anastasia's. There wasn't an Anastasia in the fairytale. That's from Disney. I mean, isn't that enough proof alone? You don't always have to argue everything you don't agree with, Lady.


      Stop with your false accusation, it won't help you getting anywhere, and it is childish. I'm agreeing with Eskaver who pointed out a fact: we have no source to back up "Ana -> Disney film". If you refuse to see that point, not my fault.

      And when she said "both Ana" she was obviously talking of OUATIW's Ana and OUAT's Ana. They're both based from the fairytales, but so far, only one is clearly based from the Disney film.

      The rest is speculation, until proven otherwise. If it was enough, then the discussion for Clorinda/Tisbe would have zero purpose.

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    • I looked at the Twitter stuff.

      Question: Is the Red Queen an adaptation of Anastasia from Cinderella but not directly related to Cinderella?

      Answer: Yes. Both Anastasias are adapted from the same fairy tale. Thx!

      Lol, she answered pretty weirdly.

      Both Ana (OUAT) and Ana (WL) are based on the Wicked Stepsister from the fairy tale. Simple as that. Ana (OUAT) is based on Anastasia from the Disney Movie (due to overwhelming factors).

      It's not like I am vehemently oposed to Ana (WL) being based on the Disney movie, but it's not about feelings, just what's given. Given how much the writers avoid direct statements about Ana (WL) being based on the Disney movie, this is the reason for pause.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      It's not like I am vehemently oposed to Ana (WL) being based on the Disney movie, but it's not about feelings, just what's given. Given how much the writers avoid direct statements about Ana (WL) being based on the Disney movie, this is the reason for pause.

      This. The whole stepsisters thing is confusing as hell, and I'm not really sure they're even clear about it with themselves. Which is why we worked out these situations with sources. And unfortunately, we have nothing for OUATIW's Ana and the Disney film :/

      Personally, if it was only about me, I'd say let's go adding the fairytale and the Disney film for all stepsisters. But, not everyone agree with that; we seem to have a lot of different opinions about this topic. Which is why we need sources.

      The easiest way would be to get an answer from Jane. Again x)

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    • Tysonjackson wrote: So to keep this simple

      • It's Anastasia - Tyson, Cado and seemingly Lily but not certain.
      • It's just a stepsister - Lady and Eskaver.

      Definitely Lily as well.

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    • Nightlily wrote:

      Tysonjackson wrote: So to keep this simple

      • It's Anastasia - Tyson, Cado and seemingly Lily but not certain.
      • It's just a stepsister - Lady and Eskaver.

      Definitely Lily as well.

      Okay, so:

      • It's Anastasia from Disney - Tyson, Cado and Lily.
      • It's just a stepsister - Lady and Eskaver.
      )
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    • The fact that a stepsister from a Cinderella-esque story is named Anastasia and is known for wearing pink (and then red, followed by white, so again pink) was not accidental. They definitly knew they were at the very least alluding to Disney's Anastasia. As I've said before, Red Queen Ana is much more similar to Disney's Ana than Clorinda and Tisbe are, for those reasons.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      The fact that a stepsister from a Cinderella-esque story is named Anastasia and is known for wearing pink (and then red, followed by white, so again pink) was not accidental. They definitly knew they were at the very least alluding to Disney's Anastasia. As I've said before, Red Queen Ana is much more similar to Disney's Ana than Clorinda and Tisbe are, for those reasons.

      Ana (WL) wore mostly Red, I'm pretty sure that's because she was...the Red Queen. She wore White as she was the....White Queen.

      I'd say compare Ana (WL) to Ana (OUAT) and you can see one that's clearly based off of the Disney one versus one that's less so.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      The fact that a stepsister from a Cinderella-esque story is named Anastasia and is known for wearing pink (and then red, followed by white, so again pink) was not accidental. They definitly knew they were at the very least alluding to Disney's Anastasia. As I've said before, Red Queen Ana is much more similar to Disney's Ana than Clorinda and Tisbe are, for those reasons.
      Ana (WL) wore mostly Red, I'm pretty sure that's because she was...the Red Queen. She wore White as she was the....White Queen.

      I'd say compare Ana (WL) to Ana (OUAT) and you can see one that's clearly based off of the Disney one versus one that's less so.

      Well, yes, Ana is based off of Anastasia (the ugly stepsister from Cinderella), as well as the Red Queen (from Alice Through the Looking Glass) and the White Queen (from Alice Through the Looking Glass). Just like Will was based on the Knave of Hearts (from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland), Will Scarlet (from Robin Hood lore), and the White King (from Alice Through the Looking Glass). So naturally, they take aspects from all the characters they represent. Also, just because NEF Ana may wind up sharing more with Disney's Ana, doesn't change the fact they both pull from the Disney movie. We aren't arguing over which Cinderella or which Lady Tremaine is the Disney one and which one isn't, I'm honestly not sure why we are arguing over which Ana is the Disney one.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
       Also, just because NEF Ana may wind up sharing more with Disney's Ana, doesn't change the fact they both pull from the Disney movie. We aren't arguing over which Cinderella or which Lady Tremaine is the Disney one and which one isn't, I'm honestly not sure why we are arguing over which Ana is the Disney one.

      It's less about "Only one can be the true Ana!" Just applying some standard to the decision.

      Ana (OUAT) is the sister of Drizella, daughter of' 'Lady Tremaine, stepsister of Cinderella.

      Ana (WL) is the sister of unnamed sisters, daughter of unnamed woman, stepsister of a person with a story similar enough to Cinderella.

      Jane's wording says fairytale specifically (if she just said "Cinderella", then that can easily mean both fairytale and film), so they are both based on the fairytale. Can't put words in the writers' mouths. But one has a very strong connection to the first Disney film.

      We did something similar to Clorinda, (sister of Tisbe, daughter of Lady Tremaine, stepsister of Cinderella.) (In these criteria, even Clorinda would be closer than Ana (WL) and she's not based on Anastasia Tremaine from the Disney film).

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
       Also, just because NEF Ana may wind up sharing more with Disney's Ana, doesn't change the fact they both pull from the Disney movie. We aren't arguing over which Cinderella or which Lady Tremaine is the Disney one and which one isn't, I'm honestly not sure why we are arguing over which Ana is the Disney one.
      It's less about "Only one can be the true Ana!" Just applying some standard to the decision.

      Ana (OUAT) is the sister of Drizella, daughter of' 'Lady Tremaine, stepsister of Cinderella.

      Ana (WL) is the sister of unnamed sisters, daughter of unnamed woman, stepsister of a person with a story similar enough to Cinderella.

      Jane's wording says fairytale specifically (if she just said "Cinderella", then that can easily mean both fairytale and film), so they are both based on the fairytale. Can't put words in the writers' mouths. But one has a very strong connection to the first Disney film.

      We did something similar to Clorinda, (sister of Tisbe, daughter of Lady Tremaine, stepsister of Cinderella.) (In these criteria, even Clorinda would be closer than Ana (WL) and she's not based on Anastasia Tremaine from the Disney film).

      The point is that everyone else was unnamed, so we can't assume one way or the other what Red Queen Ana's sister, mother, or stepsister are named. Like if Jane says she has a sister named Drizella, her mother is named Donna, and her stepsister is named Angelina, does that make her the Disney character or not? The sisters names are from Disney, but the mother and stepsister are from the opera. (Basically the opposite of Season 1's Cinderella's name sceme.) This is the problem with this whole thing. Technically, all the characters are based off the Disney versions, because the Disney versions are based off the fairy tale versions.

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    • So Al, you are in agreement in that she Is Anastasia from Disney?

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    • Eskaver
      Eskaver removed this reply because:
      Not useful in the discussion
      13:40, October 30, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • CoolDudeAl wrote: This is the problem with this whole thing. Technically, all the characters are based off the Disney versions, because the Disney versions are based off the fairy tale versions.

      That just isn't true.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      So Al, you are in agreement in that she Is Anastasia from Disney?

      They were definitly aware that they were naming a character, putting her in the same color, and giving her a similar backstory as the equivilant Disney character. I don't know if I'd say she is the Disney character, but she definitly purposly alludes to the Disney character.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:

      Tysonjackson wrote:
      So Al, you are in agreement in that she Is Anastasia from Disney?

      They were definitly aware that they were naming a character, putting her in the same color, and giving her a similar backstory as the equivilant Disney character. I don't know if I'd say she is the Disney character, but she definitly purposly alludes to the Disney character.

      I'm saying which side do you fit on? That side that says she is adapted from both Disney and the fairy tale or the side that just believes she is the fairy tale?

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:
      So Al, you are in agreement in that she Is Anastasia from Disney?
      They were definitly aware that they were naming a character, putting her in the same color, and giving her a similar backstory as the equivilant Disney character. I don't know if I'd say she is the Disney character, but she definitly purposly alludes to the Disney character.


      If we go that way, then we consider as an allusion.

      In all cases, she can't fully based on the Disney version as she is not Cinderella's stepsis. That simple fact plays against her.

      Saying she is an allusion may be the best compromise between the two pov: not saying she is fully based on her, but not ignoring some evidences too. And the thing, without speculating on what Jane did not say.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:
      So Al, you are in agreement in that she Is Anastasia from Disney?
      They were definitly aware that they were naming a character, putting her in the same color, and giving her a similar backstory as the equivilant Disney character. I don't know if I'd say she is the Disney character, but she definitly purposly alludes to the Disney character.


      If we go that way, then we consider as an allusion.

      In all cases, she can't fully based on the Disney version as she is not Cinderella's stepsis.

      This is honestly annoying lol. How do we consider a character confirmed to be based on the stepsisters named Anastasia and wearing a pink dress an "allusion"? But yet again you were quick to add Belle and Gold as Ellie and Carl because of a reference in the directing and music. It just doesn't even make sense why we are arguing this one. I mean I could halfway understand Clorinda and Tisbe but this? Are we gonna argue every character now?

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    • Lady Junky wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:
      So Al, you are in agreement in that she Is Anastasia from Disney?
      They were definitly aware that they were naming a character, putting her in the same color, and giving her a similar backstory as the equivilant Disney character. I don't know if I'd say she is the Disney character, but she definitly purposly alludes to the Disney character.


      Saying she is an allusion may be the best compromise between the two pov:

      Also, while I respect your opinions, everyone except you and Eskaver seem to be in agreement that she is based on Anastasia Tremaine. We didn't compromise with Clorinda and Tisbe, we went with the larger vote from the community.

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    • As I said in my other posts, I agree that she is based on Disney's Cinderella.

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    • I agree that Anastasia is an allusion to the Disney character, but like Tyson brought up, if Ana is an allusion to the Disney character, Gold and Belle have to be allusions to Up. I personally agree with this, but I do know this is not the place to discuss that.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:
      So Al, you are in agreement in that she Is Anastasia from Disney?
      They were definitly aware that they were naming a character, putting her in the same color, and giving her a similar backstory as the equivilant Disney character. I don't know if I'd say she is the Disney character, but she definitly purposly alludes to the Disney character.

      If we go that way, then we consider as an allusion.

      In all cases, she can't fully based on the Disney version as she is not Cinderella's stepsis.

      This is honestly annoying lol. How do we consider a character confirmed to be based on the stepsisters named Anastasia and wearing a pink dress an "allusion"? But yet again you were quick to add Belle and Gold as Ellie and Carl because of a reference in the directing and music. It just doesn't even make sense why we are arguing this one. I mean I could halfway understand Clorinda and Tisbe but this? Are we gonna argue every character now?


      You're the one who feel the urgent need to discuss this whole stepsis stuff again and again. And to continously ask Jane the same questions about that. Not me who has apparently a serious need to add all the stepsis as Disney characters.

      "How do we consider a character confirmed to be based on the stepsisters named Anastasia and wearing a pink dress an "allusion"?"

      For the same reasons that she is NOT Cinderella's step sis, she is NOT Lady Tremaine's daughter and NOT Drizella's sis. The very basic points of Disney's Anastasia are not there. As Eskaver pointed it out, the color can be easily explained by the fact she is the Red Queen (pink/red is the same tone of colors, that she had before being even named Ana on-screen) and the name being a nod to the Disney film. The rest is the fairytale.

      And no need to even try to mix situations which have nothing to do with the other. Since Friday night, we have multiple sources from crew and cast confirming the Up stuff. Since Friday. This is literally the first time since OUATIW that we have a kind of source about Ana and the Cinderella stuff. That's something they refused to address for YEARS.

      And it is not going to change the very fact that we don't have a source for the Disney stuff. The info we got is for the fairytale, meaning if Jane ever address the Disney stuff and say no, the entire discussion would have zero point.

      Plus, if we go this way, Ana is not even closer to Disney's Ana than Clorinda/Tisbe. The only thing these girls do not have is the name. The rest is closer to Disney than OUATIW's Ana. That would not make sense to refuse to consider Clorinda/Tisbe as the stepsis from Disney, but yeah to OUATIW's Ana just cos of a name. A reference is more than just a name.

      That's why allusion may be the best solution as for now. At least, until we get the clear word of someone.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:

      Tysonjackson wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:
      So Al, you are in agreement in that she Is Anastasia from Disney?
      They were definitly aware that they were naming a character, putting her in the same color, and giving her a similar backstory as the equivilant Disney character. I don't know if I'd say she is the Disney character, but she definitly purposly alludes to the Disney character.

      If we go that way, then we consider as an allusion.

      In all cases, she can't fully based on the Disney version as she is not Cinderella's stepsis.

      This is honestly annoying lol. How do we consider a character confirmed to be based on the stepsisters named Anastasia and wearing a pink dress an "allusion"? But yet again you were quick to add Belle and Gold as Ellie and Carl because of a reference in the directing and music. It just doesn't even make sense why we are arguing this one. I mean I could halfway understand Clorinda and Tisbe but this? Are we gonna argue every character now?


      You're the one who feel the urgent need to discuss this whole stepsis stuff again and again. And to continously ask Jane the same questions about that. Not me who has apparently a serious need to add all the stepsis as Disney characters.

      "How do we consider a character confirmed to be based on the stepsisters named Anastasia and wearing a pink dress an "allusion"?"

      For the same reasons that she is NOT Cinderella's step sis, she is NOT Lady Tremaine's daughter and NOT Drizella's sis. The very basic points of Disney's Anastasia are not there. As Eskaver pointed it out, the color can be easily explained by the fact she is the Red Queen (pink/red is the same tone of colors, that she had before being even named Ana on-screen) and the name being a nod to the Disney film. The rest is the fairytale.

      And no need to even try to mix situations which have nothing to do with the other. Since Friday night, we have multiple sources from crew and cast confirming the Up stuff. Since Friday. This is literally the first time since OUATIW that we have a kind of source about Ana and the Cinderella stuff. That's something they refused to address for YEARS.

      And it is not going to change the very fact that we don't have a source for the Disney stuff. The info we got is for the fairytale, meaning if Jane ever address the Disney stuff and say no, the entire discussion would have zero point.

      Plus, if we go this way, Ana is not even closer to Disney's Ana than Clorinda/Tisbe. The only thing these girls do not have is the name. The rest is closer to Disney than OUATIW's Ana. That would not make sense to refuse to consider Clorinda/Tisbe as the stepsis from Disney, but yeah to OUATIW's Ana just cos of a name. A reference is more than just a name.

      That's why allusion may be the best solution as for now. At least, until we get the clear word of someone.

      Tell me how she is not Anastasia from the Disney film but just based on the stepsisters in general? For starters, as you said she is not Cinderella's stepsister. Well the stepsisters in the original fairytale weren't really fleshed out much other than being a stepsister. Most of the separate characterization came from Disney and other adaptations when they gave them names... Anastasia and Drizella. All of Ana's similarities come from the Disney film. But even disregarding that, her name being Anastasia is enough to consider her based on the Disney film, if even in name. Like I said about Ursula, how are any of the Ursula's specifically based on Disney? They aren't but she takes her name from Disney so that counts her as a Disney adaptation.

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    • I agree with "Allusion to Anastasia from the Disney Film, "Cinderella"" or however it is put.

      Based on is pretty strong. Allusion to fills in the middle road, Some similarities to is the weakest and usually has stuffed placed in trivia.

      Ex. In regards to the Disney films.

      Ana (OUAT) is based on. She's practically ripped from the Disney film.

      Ana (WL) is an allusion to.  She is less so, but have major similarities.

      Clorinda/Tisbe have similarities to. They were debated with stuff with writer confirmation.

      All though are based on the Evil Stepsister(s) from the Fairytale.

      As Lady puts it, Ana (WL) only has name similarities over Clorinda and Tisbe, while they have characters from the movie.

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    • 4 for based on Anastasia

      3 for allusion/stepsisters

      So it's still ongoing.

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    • It's just like how Ariel and Ursula are both based on Disney's Little Mermaid, with Ariel being half of the Disney character (love for Eric, desire to be human) and Ursula being the other half (love of singing, strained relationship with her father).

      Anastasia is the stepsister of a Cinderella, and is even mentioned in her casting call to love both Ella and Drizella equally (which would match up to redeemed Anastasia's actions in the later Cinderella sequels).

      Red Queen Anastasia has a stepsister who married a prince, is in love with a man of low status her mother doesn't approve of, and has a mother obsessed with status and who doesn't love her. This also matches up with Disney's Anastasia in the sequels.

      Clorinda also has her storyline practically ripped from Disney's Anastasia as well, also falling in love with a man from low status, and through Cinderella's help, manages to stand up to her mother and be with him.

      Though I find it funny how none of the "Anastasia" characters have actually been evil. Red Queen was for a while, but she seemed more callous and bored than outright malicious. Until she teamed up with Jafar, that is.

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    • I don't see a big difference between saying she is an allusion VS based on. An allusion is still admitting that character similarities are there. I wouldn't count me as the same as just saying she is an ugly stepsister, she very clearly alludes to Disney's Anastasia, and should be noted as such. And I'm using alludes mostly because it is a good middle ground, since we don't actually know the full backstory with her sisters and stepsister and such.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      I don't see a big difference between saying she is an allusion VS based on. An allusion is still admitting that character similarities are there. I wouldn't count me as the same as just saying she is an ugly stepsister, she very clearly alludes to Disney's Anastasia, and should be noted as such. And I'm using alludes mostly because it is a good middle ground, since we don't actually know the full backstory with her sisters and stepsister and such.


      Based on is more definitive than Allusion ^^

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    • Based on = Tyson, CadoDoan, Lily

      Allusion to = Eskaver, OUAT the Darkness, CDA, Me

      Unless I forgot someone?

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    • Allusion

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    • Still no consensus. 5-3 isn't that big of a gap. Anyone else care to chime in?

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    • I would say an allusion, because it isn’t canon despite all of the similarities.

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    • TheRose123 wrote: I would say an allusion, because it isn’t canon despite all of the similarities.

      They've actually confirmed that she is indeed based from the fairytale Cinderella. So her name being Anastasia would also make her an adaption of Anastasia from Cinderella, but some are arguing that she is only from the fairytale and not the movie.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:

      TheRose123 wrote: I would say an allusion, because it isn’t canon despite all of the similarities.

      They've actually confirmed that she is indeed based from the fairytale Cinderella. So her name being Anastasia would also make her an adaption of Anastasia from Cinderella, but some are arguing that she is only from the fairytale and not the movie.

      Then I’d say it’s from the Disney film.

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    • This debate is making my head spin a little lol. o.O After reading everything, I vote for adding her in as "based on".

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    • Wonderland Anastasia could be the stepsister of another version of Cinderella, different from Ashley and Jacinda

      It could be very easy to do since in the show her backstory seems to be a perfect match

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    • For anyone late to the party, since the thread above and the argument now aren't necessarily the same, it has long been suspected that the Red Queen was Anastasia "Tremaine" from Cinderella, due to their multiple similarities. Eventually the writers confirmed she was indeed not Cinderella's stepsister, however, recently they implied that she was intended to be some version of her in a podcast interview, so I asked Jane Espenson on Twitter and she confirmed that they were indeed based on the same character. However, Jane specifically said "from the same fairytale". I didn't take this as meaning much, but some are saying that she meant it as Anastasia was only based on the fairytale and everything else was just a coincidence/allusion to Anastasia Tremaine. I don't agree with this, as most of the similarities (namely her name) come from the Disney film. So thus we are all divided on what the article should say. So state what you think.

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    • I originally went with it being an allusion before I had the whole story. But now my vote goes to it being based on the movie because the similarities in plot and in the character’s name are strong.

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    • TheRose123 wrote: I originally went with it being an allusion before I had the whole story. But now my vote goes to it being based on the movie because the similarities in plot and in the character’s name are strong.

      You should read the arguments for "allusion" in that case ^^ Because Clorinda/Tisbe have the same plot as OUATIW's Ana and, despite not being named Anastasia, they DO have a mother named Lady Tremaine and a stepsis named Cinderella. Which is not the case of OUATIW's Ana, and not possible as Ana is confirmed to not have a stepsis named Cinderella.

      And not a long time ago, we decided to not count Clorinda/Tisbe as allusion of Ana. As both cases are quite similar, I think it is a good deal to have OUATIW's Ana as allusion ^^ Because if you take away her name, she has nothing from Disney's Ana for herself ^^

      That's only a part of the arguments ^^

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    • Lady Junky wrote:

      TheRose123 wrote: I originally went with it being an allusion before I had the whole story. But now my vote goes to it being based on the movie because the similarities in plot and in the character’s name are strong.

      Because if you take away her name, she has nothing from Disney's Ana for herself ^^

      Even though literally all of the similarities came from Anastasia from Disney. The name, the pink dress, her loving a man her mother did not approve of and then disobeying her mother to be with him, her redemption arc, her being an actual character instead of just a stepsister, etc. But whatever you say lol

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote:


      TheRose123 wrote: I originally went with it being an allusion before I had the whole story. But now my vote goes to it being based on the movie because the similarities in plot and in the character’s name are strong.

      Because if you take away her name, she has nothing from Disney's Ana for herself ^^
      Even though literally all of the similarities came from Anastasia from Disney. The name, the pink dress, her loving a man her mother did not approve of and then disobeying her mother to be with him, her redemption arc, her being an actual character instead of just a stepsister, etc. But whatever you say lol


      You know. You could be mature for once, and stop mocking our opinion because we disagree. Not the first time in this thread, that you do that. Between fake accusation and that, that's really tiring.

      Between the fact that we're "really annoying" or your little repetitive lols. Like really?

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    • RedCoatOfficial
      RedCoatOfficial removed this reply because:
      Not worth it.
      17:37, November 2, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • (MOD): Let's not have aggressive and inflammatory behavior in the expression of opinions on this topic. Let's keep it on the issue at hand: Ana being an allusion or based on.

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    • Eskaver wrote: (MOD): Let's not have aggressive and inflammatory behavior in the expression of opinions on this topic. Let's keep it on the issue at hand: Ana being an allusion or based on.

      Exactly^

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    • Last time I counted we had five for based on and five for allusion.

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Wonderland Anastasia could be the stepsister of another version of Cinderella, different from Ashley and Jacinda

      It could be very easy to do since in the show her backstory seems to be a perfect match

      So, what is your opinion? 

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    • This discussion still isn't over. We have five on each side.

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    • Need more votes people, c'mon. We currently have an even amount on each side.

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    • If we have to do a revote, perhaps we could common ground it with "loosely based on".

      I don't really want to change the votes as I do believe that we should be consistent on what is allusion and what is based on without doing things one by one. Not in anyway discrediting anything, but it's appears to always be Ana or anything related to Cinderella.

      I'd suggest we go with a standard over individual basis as they all revolve around limited information.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      If we have to do a revote, perhaps we could common ground it with "loosely based on".

      I don't really want to change the votes as I do believe that we should be consistent on what is allusion and what is based on without doing things one by one. Not in anyway discrediting anything, but it's appears to always be Ana or anything related to Cinderella.

      I'd suggest we go with a standard over individual basis as they all revolve around limited information.

      Oh please no. Not another revote.

      This is taking a way too long, and I think everyone is tired of this stepsisters stuff >.<

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      If we have to do a revote, perhaps we could common ground it with "loosely based on".

      I don't really want to change the votes as I do believe that we should be consistent on what is allusion and what is based on without doing things one by one. Not in anyway discrediting anything, but it's appears to always be Ana or anything related to Cinderella.

      I'd suggest we go with a standard over individual basis as they all revolve around limited information.

      Oh please no. Not another revote.

      This is taking a way too long, and I think everyone is tired of this stepsisters stuff >.<

      I am too. It's one stepsister bunch or another; however, if we can't reach consensus, there should be some standard that we apply anyhow as this really shouldn't be this case by case basis as this is done for tens, hundreds of characters.

      (Or I guess we keep whatever is on the page as it is until then.)

      Hopefully we get the votes to give either side a victory.

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    • Well the only stepsister cases were Clorinda/Tisbe and now this one (the others don't have to be argued as their stating is clear) and this one has much better ground than that one. On that one everyone argued many different views but on this we are pretty much split down the middle. Half is for allusion, half is for based on.

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    • At this point, I don't really care what we go with, so if moving me to "based on" solves the problem, than go ahead. She is more of an allusion overall, but she does have the name and the pink color from Disney's Cinderella, so it really doesn't matter to me how we state it.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      At this point, I don't really care what we go with, so if moving me to "based on" solves the problem, than go ahead. She is more of an allusion overall, but she does have the name and the pink color from Disney's Cinderella, so it really doesn't matter to me how we state it.


      No one has to change its opinion. And that would only be a 6 vs 5, so not enough to even call it a consensus.

      I'll try to ask Killian ^^ Will already be a 6th vote for one side ^^

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      At this point, I don't really care what we go with, so if moving me to "based on" solves the problem, than go ahead. She is more of an allusion overall, but she does have the name and the pink color from Disney's Cinderella, so it really doesn't matter to me how we state it.

      No one has to change its opinion. And that would only be a 6 vs 5, so not enough to even call it a consensus.

      I'll try to ask Killian ^^ Will already be a 6th vote for one side ^^

      It would be 6 to 4, because it was 5 to 5, but it I switch sides, it goes from tie to one up and one down, which is a net of two difference.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      At this point, I don't really care what we go with, so if moving me to "based on" solves the problem, than go ahead. She is more of an allusion overall, but she does have the name and the pink color from Disney's Cinderella, so it really doesn't matter to me how we state it.

      No one has to change its opinion. And that would only be a 6 vs 5, so not enough to even call it a consensus.

      I'll try to ask Killian ^^ Will already be a 6th vote for one side ^^

      It would be 6 to 4, because it was 5 to 5, but it I switch sides, it goes from tie to one up and one down, which is a net of two difference.


      Won't change the fact that it is a discussion, not a competition. If more people come and vote allusion, the vote is going to be longer cos you voted based on, just for the sake of trying to finish the discussion.

      The discussion is already long enough, now if we start voting just to end it and not to reflect our opinions, there was no point in doing it >.<

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      At this point, I don't really care what we go with, so if moving me to "based on" solves the problem, than go ahead. She is more of an allusion overall, but she does have the name and the pink color from Disney's Cinderella, so it really doesn't matter to me how we state it.

      No one has to change its opinion. And that would only be a 6 vs 5, so not enough to even call it a consensus.

      I'll try to ask Killian ^^ Will already be a 6th vote for one side ^^

      It would be 6 to 4, because it was 5 to 5, but it I switch sides, it goes from tie to one up and one down, which is a net of two difference.

      Won't change the fact that it is a discussion, not a competition. If more people come and vote allusion, the vote is going to be longer cos you voted based on, just for the sake of trying to finish the discussion.

      The discussion is already long enough, now if we start voting just to end it and not to reflect our opinions, there was no point in doing it >.<

      It is not just changing for no reason, I consider it to be between and allusion and based on, as their are valid points for both, so I'm really okay with it being either way.

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    • For newcomers: Based on argument: Her name is Anastasia just like Anastasia Tremaine, she has a pink dress just like Anastasia Tremaine, her relationship with Will slightly mirrors Anastasia Tremaine's relationship with the Baker in Cinderella II. And in the fairytale, there were no names for the sisters. They were just sisters. So saying she is based only on the fairytale doesn't really work, as she can't be based on a specific sister necessarily.

      Allusion argument: I don't agree with allusion so my points on this won't be as good, but from what I can tell, some think she is an allusion because there are only a few similarities and Jane Espenson only said the fairytale, when mentioning where Ana was adapted from. Did Jane mean that specifically or was she just saying it in general? So vote away.

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    • 100% based on. The name, the parallels, the fact that her story pre-Will mirrors that of Cinderella's stepsister (though she's not a stepsister to Ashleyrella or Jacindarella). Heck, if she's an allusion to anyone, it's Jasmine, given her relationship with Jafar in the final episodes.

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    • That's one more for based on and Al said he was fine either way.

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    • Eskaver
      Eskaver removed this reply because:
      Spoiler
      19:04, November 13, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Why was my reply removed for spoilers? Lol, it was in the press release and this discussion was originally about Ana as the stepsister clues...

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      Why was my reply removed for spoilers? Lol, it was in the press release and this discussion was originally about Ana as the stepsister clues...

      If the episode hasn't aired, it's a spoiler.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Tysonjackson wrote:
      Why was my reply removed for spoilers? Lol, it was in the press release and this discussion was originally about Ana as the stepsister clues...

      If the episode hasn't aired, it's a spoiler.

      But I thought material released on press releases was allowed for discussion?

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      Tysonjackson wrote:
      Why was my reply removed for spoilers? Lol, it was in the press release and this discussion was originally about Ana as the stepsister clues...
      If the episode hasn't aired, it's a spoiler.
      But I thought material released on press releases was allowed for discussion?

      You can discuss it. Just not on this board. Otherwise, why have a spoilers board if we don't keep spoilers there.

      Promo/Press Release/Post-Episode Interviews are spoilers (if the episode didn't air)

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Tysonjackson wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      Tysonjackson wrote:
      Why was my reply removed for spoilers? Lol, it was in the press release and this discussion was originally about Ana as the stepsister clues...
      If the episode hasn't aired, it's a spoiler.
      But I thought material released on press releases was allowed for discussion?

      You can discuss it. Just not on this board. Otherwise, why have a spoilers board if we don't keep spoilers there.

      Promo/Press Release/Post-Episode Interviews are spoilers (if the episode didn't air)

      Understood.

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    • Okay, we are counting Hook (Wish Realm) as Flynn Rider but are still arguing about this? ...

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      Okay, we are counting Hook (Wish Realm) as Flynn Rider but are still arguing about this? ...

      And I'd say that should be an allusion, but this isn't the appropriate thread for that.

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    • I just think that if we can add Hook as Flynn Rider or Ellie and Carl/Belle and Rumple then adding this shouldn't be something we're even discussing anymore lol.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      I just think that if we can add Hook as Flynn Rider or Ellie and Carl/Belle and Rumple then adding this shouldn't be something we're even discussing anymore lol.

      Those will have to be discussed in a separate thread.

      As I said here, I think, we should just establish a standard then this would be minute an issue.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      I just think that if we can add Hook as Flynn Rider or Ellie and Carl/Belle and Rumple then adding this shouldn't be something we're even discussing anymore lol.

      Those are all technically allusions, as they are clearly not Flynn, Ellie, or Carl by name (or even appearance). Bring it up somewhere if you want.

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    • Still not solved, but the leading vote was still based on last time I checked.

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    • 6 vs 5 last time I checked.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      Okay, we are counting Hook (Wish Realm) as Flynn Rider but are still arguing about this? ...

      Wait, Wish Hook counts as Flynn Rider? How? Because he saved Gothel from the tower?

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:
      Okay, we are counting Hook (Wish Realm) as Flynn Rider but are still arguing about this? ...
      Wait, Wish Hook counts as Flynn Rider? How? Because he saved Gothel from the tower?

      No, he is an allusion.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:
      Okay, we are counting Hook (Wish Realm) as Flynn Rider but are still arguing about this? ...
      Wait, Wish Hook counts as Flynn Rider? How? Because he saved Gothel from the tower?

      Yes, as well as the comments Tremaine (real Rapunzel) made to him about how he is lucky he can still see.

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    • Please guys, let's stay on topic ^^

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    • I think that her pink dress/red gowns are references to the Red Queen, but that Ana herself is loosely based on Anastasia Tremaine from the movie. I say loosely because there is no canon evidence that her mother is lady Tremaine and her sister and stepsister are Cinderella and Drizella. I'm kind of in both camps because I think that Ana has enough similarities for her to be based on the character in the movie, but that her backstory is an allusion to the movie. However, I'm leaning more towards based on.

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    • This is by as cut and dry that’s often presented. Like... Based on Disney = Based on Fairytale, but that isn’t true the other way around. So, no one’s arguing if Ana is based on the Evil Stepsister in the fairytale. Arguing that she’s based off the Disney film, however.....

      My Allusion/Basis test is pretty simple. Looks like a duck (appearance), sounds like a duck (name), acts like a duck (story), and others say so (Writer’s non-confirming input). Based on takes 3 (aka majority), Allusion is anything lesser.

      For Red Queen, she’s got the name and a vaguely similar story. The story is vaguely similar because while she has a mother and stepsister, she has other sisters (Keyword: sisters!). No one can seriously argue that she looks like Anastasia and the writers didn’t say anything about the Disney film.

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    • Eskaver wrote: No one can seriously argue that she looks like Anastasia

      To be fair, does the current one really look like Disney Anastasia either? But I do understand what you're saying.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: No one can seriously argue that she looks like Anastasia

      To be fair, does the current one really look like Disney Anastasia either? But I do understand what you're saying.

      The one that we have not seen, except obscured by a veil? XD

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: No one can seriously argue that she looks like Anastasia

      To be fair, does the current one really look like Disney Anastasia either? But I do understand what you're saying.
      The one that we have not seen, except obscured by a veil? XD

      I mean Adelaide Kane hardly looks like Disney's Drizella, either. She's actually beautiful.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Tysonjackson wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: No one can seriously argue that she looks like Anastasia

      To be fair, does the current one really look like Disney Anastasia either? But I do understand what you're saying.
      The one that we have not seen, except obscured by a veil? XD
      I mean Adelaide Kane hardly looks like Disney's Drizella, either. She's actually beautiful.

      Come on, Disney's Drizella was beautiful animation!

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    • So this discussion has been going on since October and it doesn't really seem like anyone else but us cares to vote in, as we've given multiple reminders. The majority still says based on, so is that a consensus or do we need to keep waiting more months for a discussion no one seems to care about anymore?

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    • So....I think allusion is a nice way to consolidate all range of views. It's flexible and the meaning still carries over.

      If we base things off Appearance, Story, Name, and Writer's Input, it's a solid standard when assessing these situations.

      I mean, besides personal opinions, why not go with allusion, which is the literary device being used? I like the Red Queen. I loved her story. I thought she was a shoe-in for Ella's story, even if the timeline was wonky. But the writers and the show made it clear: They alluded to the Evil Stepsister from Cinderella. 

      Besides, we practically never, ever really debate basis. Aladdin was clearly Aladdin. Jasmine was clearly Jasmine. Beowulf was clearly Beowulf. Alice was clearly Alice. I mean, if it's this debatable, then surely, it's not "based on". Being an allusion isn't a knock at the character, just placing it correctly in it's ole as a literary device. Just a few words on the wiki, nothing more.

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    • Allusion

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    • Still not a clear consensus though. Last voting, the majority (including two administrators) agreed with basing. Utter’s vote may place us at even, as I haven’t counted, but still no clear consensus.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote: Still not a clear consensus though. Last voting, the majority (including two administrators) agreed with basing. Utter’s vote may place us at even, as I haven’t counted, but still no clear consensus.

      I don’t think admin votes count any more that any one else’s. Sort of a fallacy (Appreal to Authority).

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    • Okay, it's been months and the majority is still on based on, even if only by a little bit.

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    • So are we at consensus? The discussion started in October, it's January. We can't just keep waiting around for people if they aren't gonna chime in. The people that wanted to vote all have.

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    • Hello?

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      Hello?

      Hello! Please don't bump threads without substance.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Tysonjackson wrote:
      Hello?

      Hello! Please don't bump threads without substance.

      The “Hello?” was because I asked that question about the consensus last week and never received a reply from anyone. 😂 I was trying to ask if anyone was still here. I would’ve taken the no replies thing as a yes, but the minute I did that I’d probably get accused of ignoring opinions/rules or something. So I’m trying to make sure anyone who still wants to input can.

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    • We've all voted. Whoever's supposed to make the decision based on our votes either hasn't made the decision or did it and didn't mention it. Either way, what else do you want other people to do? Continue a conversation that we've already talked through a million times before? Though I do agree someone probably should've replied within the last ten days.

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    • Personally, I find funny that with the last voter's vote, utter, both sides were even... And now suddenly, one side is winning despite no other vote happened? Anyways...

      And, it would not change a thing to the problem. This discussion is a waaaaay too divisive, with too many involved people now. We won't get it decided because one side has like 1 more vote than the other. That's a clear consensus we need. So, we wait.

      Or, we call it even, and we stop it there. As we can't agree to put it as allusion or based on, we just take the third way: we simply don't add this info in the intro sentence. And we keep all explanations and details in the trivia section.

      Like that, no people would feel more ignored than the others. We have many past occasions on which we decided to take a third way; because both sides can't reach a clear consensus.

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    • I don't think it is divisive, everyone agrees she is either alluding to or based on Disney's Anastasia. Clearly something can be put in the intro.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      I don't think it is divisive, everyone agrees she is either alluding to or based on Disney's Anastasia. Clearly something can be put in the intro.


      It is divisive cos clearly we can't seem to have a clear or real agreement on what to put in this intro.

      So yeah, maybe the best solution could be to just put nothing in the intro, and give an extra detailed explanation in the trivia section.

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    • There is no calling it even because there is no even ground in this discussion. She’s either listed as based on or she’s not. Pretty simple, we can’t do it both ways. Last time I checked, based on was the majority by like 2. But we can do a recount just to be sure? However, i don’t think we should continue much longer with this discussion. It’s been four months already.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Either way, what else do you want other people to do? Continue a conversation that we've already talked through a million times before?

      This is my point for bringing it back up. We never reached a decision either way and it’s been four months. It’s time to go ahead and get it over with by now.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Either way, what else do you want other people to do? Continue a conversation that we've already talked through a million times before?

      This is my point for bringing it back up. We never reached a decision either way and it’s been four months. It’s time to go ahead and get it over with by now.

      Yeah, the wiki has a bad habit of doing this. We discuss something, never reach a final decision, and so do nothing, or leave things that many people disagree with.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      There is no calling it even because there is no even ground in this discussion. She’s either listed as based on or she’s not. Pretty simple, we can’t do it both ways. Last time I checked, based on was the majority by like 2. But we can do a recount just to be sure? However, i don’t think we should continue much longer with this discussion. It’s been four months already.


      And that it is what you did not get in this discussion. This is not your pov or nothing. The point is not "list as based on or not". The point is "list as allusion or based on". That's not the same thing, and that it is why I am bringing the third way: we just don't list it.

      Also, you're the one who said we were even, then like one side is suddenly winning... So yeah, what's going on with the counting exactlty? How the number of votes is changing is no one is voting? 

      As I mentioned it already, we definitely can't call consensus a so divisive decision, with so many people involved in it. Clearly, whatever we're doing, basically half of the voters are not satisfied. A consensus is meant to be a clear majority... And there is no clear majority for whatever is the side.

      If the discussion is taking so long, then it will take more time. Not our fault if we don't agree on this. This is not meant to be a race. And it would have zero purpose if, at the end, the final decision is challenged again, cos many people do not agree with it. We can't pretend to have a real consensus when there is not real big majority to support it. I don't think anyone want to see the final decision being challenged over and over because the "consensus" is not important enough.

      So yeah, I'll stick with this idea. We should just end it, and not put the Disney part in the intro sentence. Not until we have a source from a writer.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:

      So yeah, I'll stick with this idea. We should just end it, and not put the Disney part in the intro sentence. Not until we have a source from a writer.

      I don’t know about everyone else, but I don’t wanna just call it quits and give you what you want. Our side may not have been winning, but we were definitely tied at the least. So our opinion matters just as much as yours.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote:

      So yeah, I'll stick with this idea. We should just end it, and not put the Disney part in the intro sentence. Not until we have a source from a writer.

      I don’t know about everyone else, but I don’t wanna just call it quits and give you what you want. Our side may not have been winning, but we were definitely tied at the least. So our opinion matters just as much as yours.


      Loool. And I'm the childish one? xD

      Plus, you don't seem to know about what you're talking about, or you did not follow the discussion? What I really want is to add the info as an allusion. But, because of this discussion, this is as impossible as adding that she is based on.

      Which leave us two possibilities. We wait and continue the discussion, OR we take a third way and we just add nothing in the intro sentence. That may not please everyone, but at least, it will not please one side over the other.

      What you still don't get is that it is not a question of which side is winning or not. As of today, we can't add that she is an allusion or based on yet. So yeah, except these two possibilities that I just mentioned, there is not much we can do.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:

      Tysonjackson wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote:

      So yeah, I'll stick with this idea. We should just end it, and not put the Disney part in the intro sentence. Not until we have a source from a writer.

      I don’t know about everyone else, but I don’t wanna just call it quits and give you what you want. Our side may not have been winning, but we were definitely tied at the least. So our opinion matters just as much as yours.


      Loool. And I'm the childish one? xD

      Plus, you don't seem to know about what you're talking about, or you did not follow the discussion? What I really want is to add the info as an allusion. But, because of this discussion, this is as impossible as adding that she is based on.

      Which leave us two possibilities. We wait and continue the discussion, OR we take a third way and we just add nothing in the intro sentence. That may not please everyone, but at least, it will not please one side over the other.

      What you still don't get is that it is not a question of which side is winning or not. As of today, we can't add that she is an allusion or based on yet. So yeah, except these two possibilities that I just mentioned, there is not much we can do.

      You’re the only one who mentioned the word “childish”. And no, the origin of this was whether or not she was based on or not. Some people may have started talking about allusions but the original discussion was is she based on Anastasia Tremaine or just the fairytale stepsister.

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    • Well, Anastasia the Red Queen is as much Cinderella's stepsister as Cinderella herself is the Miller's Daughter. Namely, they also filled other roles similar to those of the main characters of other tales, without necessarily being said characters per se.

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    • GothicNarcissus wrote:
      Well, Anastasia the Red Queen is as much Cinderella's stepsister as Cinderella herself is the Miller's Daughter. Namely, they also filled other roles similar to those of the main characters of other tales, without necessarily being said characters per se.

      Or hell, Anastasia the Red Queen is as much Cinderella's stepsister as Cruella is Cinderella herself due to being locked in an attic. Or Ursula being Ariel due to being a mermaid who loves singing. Or Regina being Ursula due to giving Ariel her legs. Or Rumple being Beast, Crocodile and Carl Fredricksen. I think we should look at those and decide on Red Queen based on their intros.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      GothicNarcissus wrote:
      Well, Anastasia the Red Queen is as much Cinderella's stepsister as Cinderella herself is the Miller's Daughter. Namely, they also filled other roles similar to those of the main characters of other tales, without necessarily being said characters per se.
      Or hell, Anastasia the Red Queen is as much Cinderella's stepsister as Cruella is Cinderella herself due to being locked in an attic. Or Ursula being Ariel due to being a mermaid who loves singing. Or Regina being Ursula due to giving Ariel her legs. Or Rumple being Beast, Crocodile and Carl Fredricksen. I think we should look at those and decide on Red Queen based on their intros.

      That's tricky, because some of those are listed in the intros; some aren't, but still listed on the story pages; and some aren't listed anywhere (like Cruella as Cinderella, that is a bit of a stretch).

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      GothicNarcissus wrote:
      Well, Anastasia the Red Queen is as much Cinderella's stepsister as Cinderella herself is the Miller's Daughter. Namely, they also filled other roles similar to those of the main characters of other tales, without necessarily being said characters per se.
      Or hell, Anastasia the Red Queen is as much Cinderella's stepsister as Cruella is Cinderella herself due to being locked in an attic. Or Ursula being Ariel due to being a mermaid who loves singing. Or Regina being Ursula due to giving Ariel her legs. Or Rumple being Beast, Crocodile and Carl Fredricksen. I think we should look at those and decide on Red Queen based on their intros.
      That's tricky, because some of those are listed in the intros; some aren't, but still listed on the story pages; and some aren't listed anywhere (like Cruella as Cinderella, that is a bit of a stretch).

      Cruella as Cinderella is a bit of a stretch, but considering Isaac himself mentions it to her (meaning the writers had to write it down), the allusion was clearly intentional. A stunning, young blonde locked in an attic by her grey-haired motherly figure, who seems overly cruel for no reason. Which is why her reveal as evil was so shocking.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      GothicNarcissus wrote:
      Well, Anastasia the Red Queen is as much Cinderella's stepsister as Cinderella herself is the Miller's Daughter. Namely, they also filled other roles similar to those of the main characters of other tales, without necessarily being said characters per se.
      Or hell, Anastasia the Red Queen is as much Cinderella's stepsister as Cruella is Cinderella herself due to being locked in an attic. Or Ursula being Ariel due to being a mermaid who loves singing. Or Regina being Ursula due to giving Ariel her legs. Or Rumple being Beast, Crocodile and Carl Fredricksen. I think we should look at those and decide on Red Queen based on their intros.
      That's tricky, because some of those are listed in the intros; some aren't, but still listed on the story pages; and some aren't listed anywhere (like Cruella as Cinderella, that is a bit of a stretch).

      Cruella as Cinderella is a bit of a stretch, but considering Isaac himself mentions it to her (meaning the writers had to write it down), the allusion was clearly intentional. A stunning, young blonde locked in an attic by her grey-haired motherly figure, who seems overly cruel for no reason. Which is why her reveal as evil was so shocking.

      We’re getting a bit off topic, but I disagree with Cruella being considered an allusion to Cinderella. She lived out a story kind of like Cinderella’s by being kept away, but that’s about it. No same name, she wasnt a maid, she didn’t go to a ball or meet a prince, she didn’t have mice friends, and it wasn’t a stepmother, it was a real mother.

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    • If we're still voting, I'd say Anastasia from WL is more than just an allusion. People have gotten so heated in this discussion which should be more fun than serious.  It's definitely an annoying thing the writers have done here.

      My theory on what happened was she was 100% supposed to be Anastasia Tremaine.  Ashley showing up like she did in WL makes me believe that.  They decided to add in bits in WL like signs of the Wraith attack and then wrote out Anastasia's backstory dropping in the Cinderella snippets and then realized "Uh oh! Timeline doesn't match up for her to be Ashley's sister!) so they tried to wave it off as a coincidence. Really writers...we are not that stupid. Later, others confirmed she was in fact a version of the stepsister, but for another story besides Ashley's. I feel like they should have just did what they've done since season 4 and disregard their own rules for how these worlds work and say, yes, she was Ashley's sister, but we acn't get Emma Rigby back...so she's just not going to appear...and give Drizella the redemption arc Clorinda had. The Clorinda and Tisbe thing was just so annoying to me. Though I did love Clorinda's actress, it seemed unecessary and a way they could distance themself from the whole thing they'd built up in WL.  I believe if WL hadn't ended as soon as it had, or if it had done better and been seen by more fans, then Anastasia would definitely have been Ashley's stepsister.

      However, in universe, she is not. Though I do still believe she is based on Anastasia Tremaine and should be considered based on the stepsister from Cinderella, making her more than just an allusion, by far, even as we know she is most likely not a Tremaine in EF.

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    • There’s another vote for Based On then! :D

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    • I respect that thought, though as a wiki, it can’t be based on theory and speculation.

      It works based on what’s presented by the show and the writers. So, if the writers said Emma’s middle name was Frosty then it would be so. (Joking of course).

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      I respect that thought, though as a wiki, it can’t be based on theory and speculation.

      It works based on what’s presented by the show and the writers. So, if the writers said Emma’s middle name was Frosty then it would be so. (Joking of course).

      The problem is that no one said Anastasia is NOT based on the Disney film. No one ever said that. So, we don't know. And these kind of discussions are always up to the community. If the community wants it, it can change. Just like how we recently changed the Dark Curse problem.

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    • CadoDoan wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:
      I respect that thought, though as a wiki, it can’t be based on theory and speculation.

      It works based on what’s presented by the show and the writers. So, if the writers said Emma’s middle name was Frosty then it would be so. (Joking of course).

      The problem is that no one said Anastasia is NOT based on the Disney film. No one ever said that. So, we don't know. And these kind of discussions are always up to the community. If the community wants it, it can change. Just like how we recently changed the Dark Curse problem.

      Yeah, community decision.

      Though, you just essentially said “No one said Ana is not based on the Disney film” and coupled with “Noone said Ana is based on the Disney film” (other argument of those on the thread) then we should put it as an allusion.

      I’m not going to go and prove a negative nor should the wiki.

      If the options are:

      Based on (Which you say is unknown either way)

      Allusion

      Trivia

      Then the only real options are Allusion or Trvia. I don’t see any reason why we can’t go with allusion. I get people love the character, but if based on is invalid, then we should go with allusion.

      As was said earlier, the discussion isn’t “Is it based on or not?” It is “Is it Based on or Allusion?” Allusion isn’t the opposite of based on, it simply means that there isn’t enough to say based on.

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    • For me, in my own headcanon, Ana's sisters are Clorinda and Tisbe...

      I believe that, if OUATiW was renewed, they would explore the fact that Ana is Ella's sister... Though, Emma was busy at the filming of 6x03 (she was filming a movie named "A Cinderella Christmas", where she portrays Cinderella) and they did the solution they had

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    • For any newcomers who are confused, this isn't a theory thread. They have confirmed that Red Queen/Anastasia is based on the Evil Stepsisters. The fandom is split, because they didn't explicitly mention the movie. Half of us think that's an obvious, given her name, the fact that she wears a pink dress in her flashbacks at home and portions of her storyline like falling in love with a lower class man, whom her mother disapproves. While the other side think that because it wasn't explicitly mentioned, we can't use it.

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    • I've said this a hundred times before but I honestly still think her name is just enough proof to count her. That would be like if they bring in a woman named Ursula in 7B as a queen in Wonderland, who is mentioned in passing as having previously lived in the ocean and made deals with mermaids. But when we question the writers on whether she's from the Little Mermaid, they said she was adapted from the fairytale and thus we didn't count movie Ursula as a basing.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote: For any newcomers who are confused, this isn't a theory thread. They have confirmed that Red Queen/Anastasia is based on the Evil Stepsisters. The fandom is split, because they didn't explicitly mention the movie. Half of us think that's an obvious, given her name, the fact that she wears a pink dress in her flashbacks at home and portions of her storyline like falling in love with a lower class man, whom her mother disapproves. While the other side think that because it wasn't explicitly mentioned, we can't use it.

      And because there’s enough to differentiate it/ not enough to say it’s based on.

      Based on is a stronger wording than allusion and since there’s discrepancies and weak parts to the based on argument, we should use allusion of as we have done elsewhere.

      Based on is usually used on those that are overtly represented in appearance, name, and story or so.

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    • Anastasia's middle name is "Frosty" as confirmed here on the thread by an actual Mod!! Is she related to Olaf? Elsa? Is she perhaps an allusion to Frosty the Snow Man or even Wendy's?!! We'll never know since season 7 is the last. Just kidding. :)

      For a character I started out hating, Anastasia from WL has certainly been one of the most interesting for me. Everyone makes good points on why she should or shouldn't be "Anastasia from Cinderella".

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    • CadoDoan wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      I respect that thought, though as a wiki, it can’t be based on theory and speculation.

      It works based on what’s presented by the show and the writers. So, if the writers said Emma’s middle name was Frosty then it would be so. (Joking of course).

      The problem is that no one said Anastasia is NOT based on the Disney film. No one ever said that. So, we don't know. And these kind of discussions are always up to the community. If the community wants it, it can change. Just like how we recently changed the Dark Curse problem.

      Pardon me for going off topic real quick, but what happened with the Dark Curse?

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      I respect that thought, though as a wiki, it can’t be based on theory and speculation.

      It works based on what’s presented by the show and the writers. So, if the writers said Emma’s middle name was Frosty then it would be so. (Joking of course).

      The problem is that no one said Anastasia is NOT based on the Disney film. No one ever said that. So, we don't know. And these kind of discussions are always up to the community. If the community wants it, it can change. Just like how we recently changed the Dark Curse problem.
      Pardon me for going off topic real quick, but what happened with the Dark Curse?

      It said Regina cast the new Dark Curse, almost everyone agreed it was Drizella's curse, not Regina's, so we changed it.

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    • Is this discussion seriously not over yet? xD 

      What's the current votes?

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    • Lady Rapunzel wrote: Is this discussion seriously not over yet? xD 

      What's the current votes?

      There is no solution for this discussion. Votes are really close since a while.

      And since in any case we can't call that a consensus. It is a community discussion and no clear argument/side winning over the other...

      So yeah, we can't move on with it either way.

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    • She is based on Disney Anastasia. In some ways, I think she is more based on the Disney character than the actual Season 7 Ana, because while the Red Queen got to live it, S7 Ana was "dead" when the actual Cinderella story happened (plus the RQ's romance with Will and her mother's reaction to it is veery similar to Anastasia's plot in Cinderella 2) -- not that I don't think S7 Ana is not based on, I just think that the Red Queen is more similar to the Disney character than her.

      So, I vote for based on.

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    • This discussion has been going on for a year now. We need to find a way to come to a consensus.

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    • Okay, I've just read the discussion. I vote for based on. No doubt. All the characters of the show are based on fairy tale characters, and just like for example Rumplestiltskin wiki says "based on Carl Fredricksen" cause it obviously is, Anastasia is obviously (and officially confirmed) based on the same character from the cartoon. 

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    • I vote for based on

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    • We need to do a full count

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    • I vote for "based on" too.

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    • RedCoatOfficial wrote:
      This discussion has been going on for a year now. We need to find a way to come to a consensus.

      The show is over, just do what you want. Like I said before, everyone either agrees she is based on or alludes to.

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    • With these last few votes it seems to be 11-7. Unfortunately to screw things up I’m voting for allusion because I feel her similarities are too much to not say anything but the Cinderella story definetly isn’t definitive enough to say based on. This makes it 11-8 in favor of based on.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:

      RedCoatOfficial wrote:
      This discussion has been going on for a year now. We need to find a way to come to a consensus.

      The show is over, just do what you want. Like I said before, everyone either agrees she is based on or alludes to.

      We have to have some sort of consensus to add it to the wiki though. And it seems like we pretty much closely do.

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    • For those unsure of what the debate is and why we most of us so far agree she is Anastasia from Cinderella, here is the evidence.

      She has at least two sisters : https://youtu.be/enCVmB5DyBs?t=1m43s
      ...One of which is a stepsister who married a prince. https://youtu.be/OY9xATxVa9Y?t=1m8s
      She has an overbearing mother, who like Lady Tremaine, wanted her daughters to marry wealthy and maybe even snag a prince: https://youtu.be/enCVmB5DyBs?t=52s 


      She was a villain who is redeemed. In Cinderella 3: A Twist in Time, Anastasia uses the Fairy God mother's magic to try to take away Cinderella's happy ending, but when she realizes what she truly wants is true love, she defies her mother and sides with Cinderella.
      She loved a pauper and defies her mother to be with him. In Cinderella 2, Anastasia falls in love with a baker who is beneath her status, according to Lady Tremaine, but Anastasia chooses love in the end.

      She wears a lot of pink: This point is rather superficial, but I believe pink was chosen because Anastasia wears pinks and magentas in the Cinderella animated movies. (Also, it looks great on Emma Rigby...)

      Cinderella appears in the first episode (as Ashley Boyd). Ashley is such a random character to even show in that scene. Though at this point, what ever storyline may have eventually unfolded is moot, I believe it is evidence they were foreshadowing the Cinderella elements. 

      Her name is Anastasia. For me that's just the driving point, especially when added to all the other evidence. She's also far too powerful a character to not be based on someone other than the Red Queen, in my opinion. Her backstory was amazing and I'd say it's far too strong to just be an allusion.  If she was merely an allusion to any character from Cinderella, I'd almost say it would be Cinderella herself.

      ​​​​​​All evidence points to her being based on Anastasia, with the writers later retconning it all. 

      ​​​​​​I'm not going to be angry if the site continues to use allusion, since there is a decent case there as well, though I disagree with it. But I still stand in the based on group. ​​​​​​​I'm not disparaging the opinions of others, just presenting evidence.

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    • Saintfighteraqua wrote: For those unsure of what the debate is and why we most of us so far agree she is Anastasia from Cinderella, here is the evidence.

      She has at least two sisters : https://youtu.be/enCVmB5DyBs?t=1m43s
      ...One of which is a stepsister who married a prince. https://youtu.be/OY9xATxVa9Y?t=1m8s
      She has an overbearing mother, who like Lady Tremaine, wanted her daughters to marry wealthy and maybe even snag a prince: https://youtu.be/enCVmB5DyBs?t=52s 


      She was a villain who is redeemed. In Cinderella 3: A Twist in Time, Anastasia uses the Fairy God mother's magic to try to take away Cinderella's happy ending, but when she realizes what she truly wants is true love, she defies her mother and sides with Cinderella.
      She loved a pauper and defies her mother to be with him. In Cinderella 2, Anastasia falls in love with a baker who is beneath her status, according to Lady Tremaine, but Anastasia chooses love in the end.

      She wears a lot of pink: This point is rather superficial, but I believe pink was chosen because Anastasia wears pinks and magentas in the Cinderella animated movies. (Also, it looks great on Emma Rigby...)

      Cinderella appears in the first episode (as Ashley Boyd). Ashley is such a random character to even show in that scene. Though at this point, what ever storyline may have eventually unfolded is moot, I believe it is evidence they were foreshadowing the Cinderella elements. 

      Her name is Anastasia. For me that's just the driving point, especially when added to all the other evidence. She's also far too powerful a character to not be based on someone other than the Red Queen, in my opinion. Her backstory was amazing and I'd say it's far too strong to just be an allusion.  If she was merely an allusion to any character from Cinderella, I'd almost say it would be Cinderella herself.

      ​​​​​​All evidence points to her being based on Anastasia, with the writers later retconning it all. 

      ​​​​​​I'm not going to be angry if the site continues to use allusion, since there is a decent case there as well, though I disagree with it. But I still stand in the based on group. ​​​​​​​I'm not disparaging the opinions of others, just presenting evidence.

      This would likely be enough if I thought the Wicked Stepsister stuff was strong enough to be considered based on but since we are only have vague stuff in the shows for it I consider both allusions.

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    • I’d hate to debate something to death, but hey, Once literally had a dead horse.

      I am a strong proponent of the “Allusion” because based on is often used when there’s overwhelming evidence. No one can argue that Aladdin isn’t based on Disney Aladdin. No one can argue that ariel isn’t based on Disney’s Ariel. No one can argue that Jasmine is actually based on Princess Balbadour, instead of Disney’s Jasmine.

      Take Ana from 7. Take Red Queen. One has overwhelming evidence, the other has a lot of “close enough” evidence. “Close enough” is what I consider Allusion is the best case.

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    • Following that logic, the Red Queen is more like Disney's Anastasia than S7 Ana. Compare each other:

      Name: Both of them share the same one.

      Dressing: Red Queen's EF dress is pink, none of S7 Ana's are.

      Family: Red Queen has an unnamed mother and 2+ sister (one of which is a stepsister who married a prince). That isn't enough info though. Anastasia is (Rapunzel) Tremaine's daughter, Drizella's sister and Cinderella's stepsister (the only thing in which she's more similar to Disney's Ana than RQ)

      Backstory: Red Queen was (presumably) mean to her stepsister, went to a ball and the prince rejected her, then fell in love with Will (the Baker?), and her mother disapproved. She eventually became good. That is the same backstory for Disney's Ana. S7 Anastasia never even fullfills the Wicked Stepsisters' role, since she was actually nice to Ella as a child, and then died. Therefore she never went to the ball, etc. Red Queen is more similar.

      Am I missing something? That is more than enough to say she's based on her.

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    • For any late people or people who need refreshing: Jane Espenson confirmed that Anastasia was adapted from Cinderella. However, in her tweet she said fairytale. Some fans took this literally as meaning she’s only from the fairytale. Some fans didn’t pay this much attention and think we should still add the Disney film as well, because her name is literally Anastasia in the Disney film. Others are in between and think allusion is best.

      I say based on, as all of the things we noticed about her come from the Disney film

      • Her Name is Anastasia.
      • She falls in love with a poor man and her mother doesn’t approve of his class.
      • Her flashback dress is pink, just like Anastasia Tremaine.
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    • I think people overstate the outfit stuff. When everybody non-Frozenhas multiple outfits, that hardly matters.

      Name is one thing, story is another.

      S7 Ana is literallly Anastasia Tremaine. I don’t see why anyone would question that.

      Red Queen might be based on the Wicked Stepsister from the fairytale but is obviously not from Disney’s Anastasia Tremaine. Based on should imply no question.

      To further highlight what I’ve said in the past in this post.

      Based on is without a shadow of doubt. They have the story, characters involved, realized version of the character and/or writer confirmation.

      What we do know is:

      1. Red Queen is not part of Ella/Ashley’s story.

      2. Red Queen has a strict, uppity mother (means very little), sisters and a step sister, who married a prince.

      3. Everything post is mostly original and has highlights of the Red Queen.

      As was mentioned, Jane’s tweet.

      It was asked if Red Queen was based on Anastasia (Disney)

      Jane specifically said that both Red Queen and Anastasia (Disney) were based off the Wicked Stepsister from the fairytale.

      If Red Queen was based on the Disney version, she would just say yes.

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    • Black Necked Swan wrote:
      Following that logic, the Red Queen is more like Disney's Anastasia than S7 Ana. Compare each other:

      Name: Both of them share the same one.

      Dressing: Red Queen's EF dress is pink, none of S7 Ana's are.

      Family: Red Queen has an unnamed mother and 2+ sister (one of which is a stepsister who married a prince). That isn't enough info though. Anastasia is (Rapunzel) Tremaine's daughter, Drizella's sister and Cinderella's stepsister (the only thing in which she's more similar to Disney's Ana than RQ)

      Backstory: Red Queen was (presumably) mean to her stepsister, went to a ball and the prince rejected her, then fell in love with Will (the Baker?), and her mother disapproved. She eventually became good. That is the same backstory for Disney's Ana. S7 Anastasia never even fullfills the Wicked Stepsisters' role, since she was actually nice to Ella as a child, and then died. Therefore she never went to the ball, etc. Red Queen is more similar.

      Am I missing something? That is more than enough to say she's based on her.

      This is actually an interesting point. Season 7's Ana shares her name and relationships (mother is Lady Tremaine, sister is Drizella, step-sister is Cinderella) with Disney's Ana, but not really any of her characteristics. And it's not like Wonderland's Ana doesn't share her name and relationships, we just don't know what her mother, sister, or step-sister's names are. I imagine at the very least if they had gotten around to showing Wonderland Ana's sister, she would have been named Drizella and wore green, but of course we didn't get to see this as the show only went for one 13 episode season. 

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    • Then why is Rumple "based on UP's Carl Fredricksen"? They just took that UP sequence and adapted it to Rumple and Belle's episode, but obviously it's an allusion and it's not like he's Carl Fredicksen. "Based on" is not that definitive.

      Espenson said Anastasia was based on the fairy tale character, but obviously she meant the Disney movie imo, as there's no wicked sister named like her in any version of Cinderella's fairy tales.

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    • RickyYG wrote: Then why is Rumple "based on UP's Carl Fredricksen"? They just took that UP sequence and adapted it to Rumple and Belle's episode, but obviously it's an allusion and it's not like he's Carl Fredicksen. "Based on" is not that definitive.

      Espenson said Anastasia was based on the fairy tale character, but obviously she meant the Disney movie imo, as there's no wicked sister named like her in any version of Cinderella's fairy tales.

      I agree with the first part of it. They are definently allusions and it definently fits in Escavers allusion requirements.

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    • RickyYG wrote: Then why is Rumple "based on UP's Carl Fredricksen"? They just took that UP sequence and adapted it to Rumple and Belle's episode, but obviously it's an allusion and it's not like he's Carl Fredicksen. "Based on" is not that definitive.

      Espenson said Anastasia was based on the fairy tale character, but obviously she meant the Disney movie imo, as there's no wicked sister named like her in any version of Cinderella's fairy tales.

      I don’t think Rumple was “based on Carl”, but clearly an allusion.

      However, that’s a topic for a different thread. I’m consistent on this matter, even if the wiki isn’t. (As community consensus is more important than one individual.)

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    • RickyYG wrote:
      Then why is Rumple "based on UP's Carl Fredricksen"? They just took that UP sequence and adapted it to Rumple and Belle's episode, but obviously it's an allusion and it's not like he's Carl Fredicksen. "Based on" is not that definitive.

      Espenson said Anastasia was based on the fairy tale character, but obviously she meant the Disney movie imo, as there's no wicked sister named like her in any version of Cinderella's fairy tales.

      Yeah, Rumple, Belle, etc. should all be allusion for the Up stuff. Not sure how we are having so much trouble with Red Queen Ana, but that just was added with no problem.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:

      RickyYG wrote:
      Then why is Rumple "based on UP's Carl Fredricksen"? They just took that UP sequence and adapted it to Rumple and Belle's episode, but obviously it's an allusion and it's not like he's Carl Fredicksen. "Based on" is not that definitive.

      Espenson said Anastasia was based on the fairy tale character, but obviously she meant the Disney movie imo, as there's no wicked sister named like her in any version of Cinderella's fairy tales.

      Yeah, Rumple, Belle, etc. should all be allusion for the Up stuff. Not sure how we are having so much trouble with Red Queen Ana, but that just was added with no problem.

      Because some people have particular biases. I think standard should easily be followed.

      It’s like how Rumple obviously isn’t based on the Disney fairy god mother despite playing to role in the story.

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    • But I still will bring up another point: What does Ursula really have in common with Disney Ursula? Not much. But it’s her and we all know it. Anastasia isn’t related to Cinderella, Ursula never meets Ariel or curses her. It’s the same situation. Regina cursed Ariel and Clorinda and Tisbe were the Stepsisters.

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    • RedCoatOfficial wrote:
      But I still will bring up another point: What does Ursula really have in common with Disney Ursula? Not much. But it’s her and we all know it. Anastasia isn’t related to Cinderella, Ursula never meets Ariel or curses her. It’s the same situation. Regina cursed Ariel and Clorinda and Tisbe were the Stepsisters.

      Do you mean mermaid Ursula? It's pretty clear the point there is she is both Ariel and Ursula.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:

      RedCoatOfficial wrote:
      But I still will bring up another point: What does Ursula really have in common with Disney Ursula? Not much. But it’s her and we all know it. Anastasia isn’t related to Cinderella, Ursula never meets Ariel or curses her. It’s the same situation. Regina cursed Ariel and Clorinda and Tisbe were the Stepsisters.

      Do you mean mermaid Ursula? It's pretty clear the point there is she is both Ariel and Ursula.

      Yeah that one. My point is that she doesn’t ever meet Ariel. She never takes her voice. And she doesn’t wear a black dress and have purple skin and short spiky grey hair. So how is this any different from the Red Queen? Not actually asking you cause you agreed lol just saying in general.

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    • We currently have Ana's mother based off of Lady Tremaine and the Wicked Stepmother and Ana on one of the Wicked Stepsisters. The reason why we decided Ana's mother was based off of Lady Tremaine, in case any of you didn't know, was because of how similar their storyline was to Cinderella 2.

      I agree with Ana to be based off of Anastasia from the movie and one of the Wicked Stepsisters from the fairytale. Could we make a thread where we can do a final vote just saying what we think it should be?

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    • I think we definitely need to make a final decision here. It's been a whole year in like a week.

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    • What are the current votes?

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    • 13-8 in favor of based on.

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    • That’s almost half way more for us after a whole year. Is that not a consensus?

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    • Yeah. I officially declare this a consensus.

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
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