Hey, I undid your edit on the Land Without Magic timeline because I'm absolutely convinced that it is wrong to say Emma's birthday is a date other than what both the show and the writers have been telling us for years. However, I don't want it to feel like I tried to make the final decision on my own or anything. If you want to discuss it, I'd be happy to participate in the discussion, and of course whatever is agreed upon will be reflected on the corresponding articles.
Well, I don't know who wrote that indisputable fact into stone, but it is a big mistake, and it spread all over the wiki. Emma was born on October 23, and I'll take the creators' clear words over some fan-made deduction, regardless of how logic it might seem (even though it is not logic at all, and the show proves it). I will do my best to explain the events surrounding Emma's birthday, and point out why the information on Emma's article, the timelines, and possibly elsewhere on the wiki is mistaken.
"The day after the curse, the newspaper Regina reads is dated October 23, 1983 (the show premiered on October 23, 2011). This means Emma's birthday is either October 22, or October 23, depending on whether she was born before or after midnight."
This is incorrect. It is based on the assumption that the Enchanted Forest and Boston's time-zone are aligned, which is complete speculation, and which leads to the assumption that October 23 is the "next day", when in fact it is the exact same day the Dark Curse was cast. Emma was born and sent to the Land Without Magic only minutes apart, being born during the late evening/night in the Enchanted Forest and only minutes later being sent through the Wardrobe only to arrive to Boston during daylight hours, on October 23, meaning she was born this day.
"However, the show itself indicates that her birthday on October 22. In "Pilot", Emma celebrates her twenty-eight birthday on this date; the day she arrives in Storybrooke (which was the day before she spends the night behind bars and decides to stay; she even says to Regina that "yesterday was my birthday")."
Again, incorrect. On October 24 (the day AFTER she comes to Storybrooke, AFTER having spent the night in the Storybrooke Sheriff's Department), she says "yesterday was my birthday". The trivia on Emma's page incorrectly states that this quote is from the day before Emma spent the night in jail, but this is a glaring mistake: the quote is definitely from after she's been in jail, meaning the day AFTER she came to Storybrooke.
"This is further confirmed when August's wooden state is triggered in Thailand at 8:15 A.M. on October 24—the very same moment that Emma accepts the room key at 8:15 P.M. (the time zone in Phuket is twelve hours ahead of Maine's timezone)."
I don't even understand how this is supposed to be a confirmation. I don't remember any indicator that August Booth's wooden state is triggered in October 24. If we go by logic, it has to be 8:15 A.M. October 25.
There is a lot of Behind the Scenes to support that Emma's birthday is October 23 as opposed to October 22.
The creators said so: Once "occurs in a semblance of real time,” starting with Emma Swan’s Oct 23, 2011 birthday aka the series premiere."
The number 23 is of huge relevance to the creators and the show, whereas I don't think the number 22 has any special meaning to them or the show.
The Pilot premiered on October 23, 2011. The creators intentionally made it so Emma's birthday was the same date.
23 is one of the LOST numbers, which are references in endless occasions on the show.
In addition, the date October 22 was never seen written or heard on the show, whereas October 23 was purposefully featured.
Saying that the creators themselves are mistaken about this implies that one's understanding of the show is better than theirs, and that the wiki should reflect our understanding of it over theirs. And I'm sorry, but the show has never clearly stated that Emma's birthday is October 22. And the "that" which we seemingly "can't override" is not the show, it is a fan's (or multiple fans') understanding of the show which differs from Adam Horowitz's understanding itself.
So we can either thoroughly analyze the events and logically deduce (and adduce) that Emma's birthday is October 23, or we can listen to the creator of the show itself when he is saying Emma's birthday is October 23.
But in "The Stranger", August says that his wooden state was triggered the very same moment that Emma decided to stay in Storybrooke. In "Selfless....", we learn that he started turning into wood in Phuket on October 24, at 08.15 AM, meaning that Emma decided to stay on October 23. at 8.15 PM. Emma arrived in Storybrooke the day before time started moving (remember how she crashed into the sign and spent the night behind bars) - the very same day that she celebrated her birthday. Earlier on the same day that she decided to stay, she told Regina that yesterday was her birthday. So her birthday is October 22.
This has actually been discussed before. Shortly after the interview was released, there was a discussion, and people agreed'v that we should go with what the show says. Someone also pointed out that A&E are only human - they can easily forget a detail like Emma spending the night in jail.
That was written in by the editors of the show, not the writers. It is not the last time they made a date mistake. It does not contradict the events of Welcome to Storybrooke and the Pilot which are clearly stating it is October 23, and we have direct word from the creators confirming the birthday is October 23.
As to why it says Oct 24, you can either assume it is a mistake from the editors', or make up any explanation such as time-zones in OUaT's Land Without Magic are reversed and that Phuket is 12 hours behind Boston instead of ahead, but we won't include fans' deductions on the wiki if the writers and other episodes themselves tell us differently.
The editor's word does not override the writers' or the show's events.
No. The time zone in Thailand is 12 hours ahead of the time sone in Maine. Not behind. Just google it. And the on-screen date would not be decided by the editor, it is based on the script for the episode. A&E simply screwed up in that interview. They are only human, and are perfectly capable of making mistakes. Within the show, there is nothing contradicting the date October 22. And our policies clearly state that the show is the number one canon. It trumps anything the show creators say. This is different from the timeline of "Nimue", where the show contradicted itself. The show says it's October 22. Pure and simple.
The events of the Pilot and Welcome to Storybrooke happen the same day, and the newspaper says October 23. There is nothing clearer or more pure than that.
The on-screen note IS decided by the editor, based on the script. The editors have messed up more than once. And the show doesn't EVER say October 22.
But it all boils down to a single truth: You are making math and deductions based on a note added by the editors, I am making math and deductions based on actual events and what the Storybrooke Daily Mirror says the date is, and Adam Horowitz says it's October 23. So if you still want to think your personal deduction makes more sense than mine, that's fine, but it does not make more sense than Adam's.
We can surely add October 24 to the list of Goofs.
P.S. I know how time-zones work in real life, I don't think you understood my comment about that. And please tone down the condescension.
Both sides have their own logic, and both are correct.
That's where is your mistake Lily, you are assuming October 22 is the only correct date. We never saw clearly stated at one time the fact that it is October 22. But, it is just how you understand it, and it is your respectable way to see but not the only one.
Killian's logic is on October 23rd. And it works too, as Emma was born after midnight. With that info in mind, then the October 23rd works perfectly too, and can not be contradicted by the show.
So the two dates can work. Lily and Killian both proved it. The only issue there? One date is being supported by the writers and creators of the show, while the other is only supported by a post-production added note. So, in this case, as both dates work we have to follow the bigger source we have: Adam and Eddy. So, Emma was born on October 23rd ^^
Plus, I'd like to point out just for the discussion (out of the discussion ^^), that the show does not trump the creators. Our policies can say what they want about that, that's not how work the canonicity of an universe. The show is the creation of Adam and Eddy, meaning their words is as important as the show's word. Saying the show > creators is just wrong on all the rules of how work a canon ^^ It is more show/creator = creators, because the show is their words.
But the thing is: The date on the newspaper does not mean, in any way, that Emma was born on October 23. The curse hit at night (after Emma was sent through the wardrobe), as witnessed by Owen and his father when they're camping, and we don't know whether this happened before or after midnight. So the date on the morning newspaper does not actually prove anything, and does not contradict what "Selfless..." says.
There is a confusion there. 217 does not mean the curse hit at night. In 217, all we see is that the curse begins the creation of SB at night, not that it hits the EF at night. As we see it in 209, the curse took a certain time to hit the whole region of the EF, as Cora protected herself of the curse during daylight.
Plus, we know world-crossing is direct, and is done quite immediatly. Emma is sent through the wardrobe at night, and you're right on that Lily, but as we see it in 120, she and Pinocchio arrive in the EF during daylight. So, unless implying their world crossing took a few hours, which is definitely not how it works as we see it multiple times on the show... ^^
When Regina is hit by the curse at night, what's the first thing she does in SB? She wakes up with daylight ^^
Yeah, uh, Lady Junky's argument makes the most sense here. If you base it around what the editors say, it's October 22nd. If you base it around what the creators/executive producers/etc. say, it's October 23rd. Either one could be wrong, but until one or the other admits that they were the one who made a mistake, we go with what the creators/execs/etc. say over the editors.
I know that Emma arrived in daylight, but that does not prove that she arrived in our world on October 23. We know that it took hours for the curse to travel through the EF (because of what we see in Queen...), so therfore, it could also have taken the curse hours to reach earth after Emma was sent through the wardrobe, and Emma could easily have arrived several hours before the curse cloud hit the LWM. Oh, and about canon: If you read the whole section, you can see that it days that the show supersedes what the creators say - creators are specifically mentioned. But anyway: I can see that this is a complicated matter, but since there was a consensus to use October 22, I suggest a discussion before you change it. Especially since the other users may remember or know something we don't.
If I remember correctly, there was a discussion in the comment field, where it was decided to use October 22. It took place right after the interview was published. I participated in this discussion, and so did Lady, I think.
In favor of October 22: Utter solitude, FrancisPaul, Lady Junky and Nightlily
4 versus 2, hardly a consensus.
With Lady Junky clearly having reconsidered that leaves it even more even, with 3 versus 3. Add DattNuttyKid and me to October 23 and that makes it 3 for Oct22 and 5 for Oct23, which is still hardly a consensus, but slightly favors October 23.
And don't forget that 3 people agreed with October 23 in the forums, which makes it 8 against 3.
Actually, no. I did not misremember anything, I was actually using the text book definition of the word, which is "majority of opinion". But I guess it would have been better to use a different word. But it's no big deal, and it is also completely unnecessary to bring up the other incident. Everyone, including you, me and everyone else, remember things incorrectly now and then. It is a normal part of being human. Anyway: I still think a new discussion is in order, since this is a complicated issue, and I think it would be best to hear from as many people as possible. Especially since there is also a third option, which is simply stating that there is conflicting info, and not picking a definitive answer.
EDIT: Since Killian changed his comment, I feel that I do owe whoever reads this an explanation: The first part was about Killian rubbing it in my face when he believed that I had misremembered something. He deleted it, but you can still see it here: "This is not the first time you remember a consensus that never happened, the last time being a comment you left which no one answered, which you remembered as a consensus."
Lily, you can't conveniently switch between textbook definitions and our policies randomly to suit your every argument.
When Lady brings up a text book definition of how canon works, you recur to our policies' definition. But when you use the term consensus outside of how our policies define it (5 votes minimum for images/quotes, more votes for more important decisions), you recur to an external text book definition? You know how our consensus works, so were you deliberately calling a 4-2 result a consensus, when you know very well that in the context of the wiki anyone would take it as a 5+ agreement?
And besides, another text-book definition for consensus is "general agreement or concord; harmony.", which was definitely not the case.
Okay, now you go too far. I was not, in any way, randomly (or deliberately, for that matter) switching between words to suit my own needs, I made a simple, human mistake. But instead of accepting it, you are making a big deal out of it, like I did something horrible. This conversation is over.
Oh no, I did not mean to imply you were doing anything horrible! I'm sorry if it sounded that way! I often pick up what I sense as discrepancies and point them out as soon as possible before it's too late and it comes off as unrelated and unnecessary, but it doesn't mean I see them as something horrible (hell, you will probably even find discrepancies in how I word myself in this very same thread if you look for them). I sincerely apologize it came off like that! I was genuinely confused about whether or not you were calling that a consensus, never mind.
The conversation is sure over tho, I have nothing else to add ^^ I will probably start the discussion in a couple of days when I'm finished with my exams :-)
I suggest we add both dates and say there is conflicting information, just like we do for the Blanchard Loft's location. There is evidence pointing to both dates, so we simply list them and pick no definite answer.
Evidences are pointing to both dates, but that's different from Blanchard Loft A&E confirmed and are using one of these two dates, so it should be the date that we use too. When there is a conflict within the show, then A&E's word is the priority.