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  • In this episode the Evil Queen nearly killed Zelena. But in the "Wicked Arc" Zelena tossed Regina around like a bag of potatoes. I know she had the amulet on her at the time, but even then she had always been more skilled than Regina and I assumed higher power level.

    Any thoughts

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    • As discussed elsewhere, I'm pretty much going with the idea that Zelena didn't try. She knew she couldn't stop EQ and best case scenario a lot of bad things happen, mostly to her. You can see when she put down Robin that she was pretty much done.

      Skill and power does very little to the serum counterparts. Rumple is more skilled and more powerful but he can't do much against the much weaker EQ or Hyde.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      As discussed elsewhere, I'm pretty much going with the idea that Zelena didn't try. She knew she couldn't stop EQ and best case scenario a lot of bad things happen, mostly to her. You can see when she put down Robin that she was pretty much done.

      Skill and power does very little to the serum counterparts. Rumple is more skilled and more powerful but he can't do much against the much weaker EQ or Hyde.


      Agree, and I do think there is nothing else to add to your point.

      We must not forget that whatever Zelena would have try, she would not have harmed the EQ. So yeah, better to end things fastly.

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    • The real-life answer: this is an extension of what I call “the Willow problem.”

      This is a reference to the character of Willow in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. After season 5 where she becomes this powerful witch, you start to see the writing for her becoming stodgy and convoluted. Why? They had to keep coming up with reasons why Willow didn’t just magic plot obstacles away. It became a joke the number of times Willow would get knocked out at the beginning of a fight. Of course, it’s not going to be much of fight if the powerful Willow is in the mix.

      Storybrooke has a half dozen ‘Willows’ parading around, and Zelena happens to be one of them. And they pretty much pull the same joke here. Zelena gets knocked on the head before the fight really starts, and she suddenly can’t do magic because of it…

      It’s also just easier to write, I suppose, than a long and elaborate magic battle.

      But I do think it all comes across as ham-fisted, writing-wise. If Zelena is savvy enough to know that the EQ could turn on her, why has she not given herself some form of leeway as she has done with Rumple. The way she reacts to EQ’s challenge, does seem to suggests she knew it was a real possibility. The “she just gave up” line doesn’t quite sit right. I mean it's totally possible, but it's not quite Zelena's style. So, if that was really the writer’s intention, it didn’t really come across. Why is she just giving up? You don’t have to kill the EQ to stop her. Rumple is more powerful than Zelena, yet she didn’t just give up on the numerous occasions he’s tried to kill her. But the writers wanted her to be saved by Regina, so that’s what happened.

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    • Zelena didn't set up a way to get out of being killed by the EQ because she desperately wanted to trust her. The reason she teamed with her in the first place was because she was desperate for a sister and the EQ promised to be that. Protecting herself from betrayal would be admitting that the EQ could be lying.

      I agree that she didn't try. Why would she? In any other fight, it's her style to fight back, but those are fights where she has a chance. She'd fight back against Regina or Emma because they can be stopped by her power. But Zelena's tried to use magic on a serum counterpart before - Hyde in the Season 5 finale - and knows that it has no effect at all. She had already said goodbye to her daughter; as far as she was aware, there was nothing left to do. Even if she teleported away, the EQ could find her. Or take Robyn as leverage.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      As discussed elsewhere, I'm pretty much going with the idea that Zelena didn't try. She knew she couldn't stop EQ and best case scenario a lot of bad things happen, mostly to her. You can see when she put down Robin that she was pretty much done.

      Nearly broke my heart how she said "Mummy loves you" when she put Robyn down. 

      But yes, Zelena has had some experience with serum counterparts and she knew she wouldn't be able to definitively win over the EQ. The best she could hope for was to fight to a stalemate, but the collateral damage was not something she was willing to risk, with Robyn in the vicinity.

      Can we also talk about how Zelena  ended up losing [both sides of] her sister? And damn Regina's ability to hold a grudge.  

      Love how Rebecca played that though. It was those little things: her face when she heard Rumple sent the EQ, that breath she took when she put Robyn down.... *slow claps* 

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    • Yeah, Rebecca continues to rock at acting. She played it very well.

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    • First, I would suggest that this should be Queenie vs Zelena rather than Regina, but that's probably just picking nits.

      As others have pointed out, Zelena was well aware that she didn't have a chance. Her mannerisms when she found out that Rumple sent Queenie, when she said goodbye to Robyn, and her generally fatalistic attitude simply screamed that she knew she was defeated and was ready to go quietly rather than risk anything happening to her baby.

      However, Regina first saving Zelena, and then being a total B#### was really sad. I hope the writers revisit Regina's attitude towards Zelena and do something to change it.

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    • well rumple said that magic is all about emotion,so when the evil queen spent time with zelena,zelena grew an emotanal atatchment to the evil quean,so when she tryed to kill her zelena's sub conshuse mind was holding her back thats the only reason she lost the fight....P.S tell me what you think of my comment than you 

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    • Denis main wrote:
      well rumple said that magic is all about emotion,so when the evil queen spent time with zelena,zelena grew an emotanal atatchment to the evil quean,so when she tryed to kill her zelena's sub conshuse mind was holding her back thats the only reason she lost the fight....P.S tell me what you think of my comment than you 

      Magic = Emotion is pretty much stated in the show, but the show plays by a bigger rule called Plot. XD

      I would have agreed, but the scenes afterwards make all our arguments fall flat because the dialogue makes it seems as if Zelena would hardly be able to recover by herself (even though all we saw was her being tossed against a wooden door). But hey, Emma was telekinetically shoved to the ground and the show made it appear as Emma could get up (Ridiculous) but at least we can say Emma may have been exhausted from studying and lack of sleep from the UW visit and also tired from blasting the protection spell for 2 whole minutes (which is longer than anyone has done before).

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    • Zelena might be more powerful than Regina, but Evil Queen is something else. When fighting, it is not just about power, but as I understand it, also about skill, experience and how fast can one attack and deffend themselves.

      In 3x16 Regina's only good move in the fight against Zelena was when she threw the traffic light at Zelena, but she reacted fast and deffended herself. And then Regina's performance was, well ... bad: conjuring up a fireball but instead of throwing it, she was just holding it in her hand, literally asking for Zelena to remove it and get the upper hand against Regina. In 3x19 Regina was paralyzed by Zelena who was faster raising her hand and then later thrown away by Zelena in Storybrooke's docks, though there Zelena did not have to raise her hand to throw Regina so high as Regina had to, since Zelena was already holding Henry and just had to move her hand up a little, while Regina had to go with them up the whole way. And it seemed Regina was focusing to remove Henry from Zelena, while Zelena directly attacked Regina. Only in 3x20 in the hospital it seemed Regina was faster to raise her hand to do whatever she wanted to Zelena, but it didn't work (probably because Zelena's amulet was protecting her against any magic that was not light magic).

      But in 6x9, Evil Queen, who is not so "soft" as Regina, she conjures a fireball and immediately throws it, she doesn't play games. Saying Zelena did not want to fight or just gave up doesn't seem to be good reason enough. Zelena fights, even if she knows she cannot win, especially when she has a child to raise and love.

      And we also saw in 6x18 Regina throwing Zelena with magic, since she realized just holding her physically had no sense. Just because Zelena is supposed to be more powerful than Regina doesn't mean Regina / Evil Queen cannot defeat her. Regina just went soft (another example is Regina vs Black Fairy in 6x19, when instead of attacking Black Fairy, Regina did nothing, just talked and sneered and that was it, then suddenly was attacked by Black Fairy).

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    • wow you must realy like Zelena im inpressed i never thought of it that way XD

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    • Ardiz wrote:
      Zelena might be more powerful than Regina, but Evil Queen is something else. When fighting, it is not just about power, but as I understand it, also about skill, experience and how fast can one attack and deffend themselves.

      In 3x16 Regina's only good move in the fight against Zelena was when she threw the traffic light at Zelena, but she reacted fast and deffended herself. And then Regina's performance was, well ... bad: conjuring up a fireball but instead of throwing it, she was just holding it in her hand, literally asking for Zelena to remove it and get the upper hand against Regina. In 3x19 Regina was paralyzed by Zelena who was faster raising her hand and then later thrown away by Zelena in Storybrooke's docks, though there Zelena did not have to raise her hand to throw Regina so high as Regina had to, since Zelena was already holding Henry and just had to move her hand up a little, while Regina had to go with them up the whole way. And it seemed Regina was focusing to remove Henry from Zelena, while Zelena directly attacked Regina. Only in 3x20 in the hospital it seemed Regina was faster to raise her hand to do whatever she wanted to Zelena, but it didn't work (probably because Zelena's amulet was protecting her against any magic that was not light magic).

      But in 6x9, Evil Queen, who is not so "soft" as Regina, she conjures a fireball and immediately throws it, she doesn't play games. Saying Zelena did not want to fight or just gave up doesn't seem to be good reason enough. Zelena fights, even if she knows she cannot win, especially when she has a child to raise and love.

      And we also saw in 6x18 Regina throwing Zelena with magic, since she realized just holding her physically had no sense. Just because Zelena is supposed to be more powerful than Regina doesn't mean Regina / Evil Queen cannot defeat her. Regina just went soft (another example is Regina vs Black Fairy in 6x19, when instead of attacking Black Fairy, Regina did nothing, just talked and sneered and that was it, then suddenly was attacked by Black Fairy).

      I agree 100%.  The Evil Queen IMO can take on basically anyone and win with the exception of those who are destined to be destroyed by someone (Black Fairy) or are immortal (Dark One).  Regina on the other hand can't even get out of her own way it seems a lot of the time.  I think it's a confidence issue.  The Evil Queen is full of confidence and she shoots fireballs first and asks questions later.  While Regina is more hesitant in her actions and that usually lets whomever she's fighting get the upperhand.  But as I and many others have said, it's also due to the plot.  When the Evil Queen was the villain the show made her powerful.  We were basically told that other than Rumple, no one was more powerful than the Evil Queen in all the realms.  When her redemption story arc started they had to tone down her powers or else she would easily be able to defeat any new villain that popped up.  My only issue is that they made Zelena TOO powerful in her story arc and IMO it's messed some things up.  In 3B they made Zelena basically untouchable but in 6B in a flashback we see that Zelena had a lil trouble beating the lion for crying out loud.  In one 6B episode we see the Evil Queen on the verge of killing Zelena yet a few episodes later we hear the Black Fairy say that Zelena is the stronger of the two. The show has absolutely no consistency when it comes to people and their magical abilities.  

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    • Eskaver wrote: As discussed elsewhere, I'm pretty much going with the idea that Zelena didn't try. She knew she couldn't stop EQ and best case scenario a lot of bad things happen, mostly to her. You can see when she put down Robin that she was pretty much done.

      Skill and power does very little to the serum counterparts. Rumple is more skilled and more powerful but he can't do much against the much weaker EQ or Hyde.

      Zelena just needed to teleport herself and Robin away

      We know (and Zelena does too) the EQ is pretty incompetent at tracking people. She spent years screaming "WHERE IS SNOW WHITE?" in the forest

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    • 8Rob wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: As discussed elsewhere, I'm pretty much going with the idea that Zelena didn't try. She knew she couldn't stop EQ and best case scenario a lot of bad things happen, mostly to her. You can see when she put down Robin that she was pretty much done.

      Skill and power does very little to the serum counterparts. Rumple is more skilled and more powerful but he can't do much against the much weaker EQ or Hyde.

      Zelena just needed to teleport herself and Robin away

      We know (and Zelena does too) the EQ is pretty incompetent at tracking people. She spent years screaming "WHERE IS SNOW WHITE?" in the forest

      She knew where Snow white was multiple times. She had come face to face with Snow White atleast 5 times if I remember correctly during the enchanted forest past. 


      As as this thread is concerned it was stated by Zelena herself during the Wicked Arc the only reason Regina couldn't hurt her is because of her amulet which protected her against Dark magic. Not only that but the Amulet amplified Zelena's magic beyond her wildest dreams. 


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZSeoaOA61g&t=54s

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng3NLBBE8P8


      So you can't compare Season 3 Zelena to Season 4,5,6,etc Zelena because she doesn't have the necklace to amplify her powers. Just like you can't compare Regina to the Evil Queen. Both Regina and Rumple have acknowledged the Evil Queen as being superior and stronger.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe966Ofmhhg

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzbuD59o7eU&t=86s


      Powerscaling on the show has never really been consistant though. Best to simply go off of feats rather than battles which usually end before they even begin. Even then though feats are inconsistant. 

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
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