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  • This will be one massive thread XD

    Go!

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    • I've been chomping at the bit!!!

      Untold stories...wow. So cool. I loved their land. I wish we could see more of it. So whimsical and dijointed looking.

      I already enjoy Jekyll/Hyde way more than I thought. Great acting.

      I was hoping for more Dragon answers, but I am glad to have seen him at all.

      I wish someone had pushed Henry in the fountain. I'm so over him.

      The 2nd Regina was pretty obvious early on, but I like it.

      What did Hyde tell Rumple??? Where is he???

      Excited for S6

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    • Lame finale. Disappointed so much. This show is really going downhill. 

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    • Quick rundown of the positives.

      Positives:

      - Magic was looking great and couldn't have more of a blast!

      - Rumple wasn't planning to actually kill anyone...maybe. His whole story was actually hilarious.

      - Hyde is epicly played (plus more male villains) and the realm is beautiful and tosses stuff together.

      - Storybook and Unholy Grail mysteries....what to do with them. Maybe episodic untold stories making this the real end of the show?

      - EQ costume and not being able to "redeem" yourself like that.

      - All the emotional moments

      Negatives:

      - Henry was so annoying and brderline cringy (guess he is the truest believer). I never felt such disdain for a child before.

      - Violet's father being from some terrible version thing to say Morgan was from this realm. That was stupid and I must headcanon that Violet is lying to make Henry feel better.

      - If the Dragon dies, then they brought him back, just to kill him while he stands there......and wait a minute, Regina can't use magic in the realm without magic, so they better mean that the EQ went to the Dragon while they were in town, plus, how would se even get into SB, lol

      - Logic fail: Vaguely 100 people wishing returns a townful of magic. Guess that TL potion is weaksauce to a wishing fountain.

      - Also, somehow Hyde used magic to take Belle, but I guess that means he's magical (well, duh) or .....my questions are pointless.

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    • A few notes.

      This was cool.

      I liked the fresh tone J&K brought.

      Way to go Hook. Earn your keep.

      Way to go Snow.

      I like the continuation of their light vs. dark theme.

      Hyde is scary, but cool.

      Who are his "friends"? Count Dracula?

      Anybody else think this is how they're going to fix Gold? Seperate him from his evil self?

      Henry: With all due respect Grandpa,' you're wrong.

      Emma: *looks impressed* *you go boy!*

      Oh, Gold is back with Hyde. What could possibly go wrong?

      No Snow, bad idea.

      Good job with the handcuffs Emma. Everyone is competant this episode. Those people are gullible.

      Didn't The Dragon just tell Regina that a balance of good and evil was... good?

      Are they going for a ying and yang thing now? 

      They went for a Mark Twain reference.

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    • awesome episode. the evil queen is back!!! I wonder how they are going to defeat her?

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    • Teddybearlover wrote:
      awesome episode. the evil queen is back!!! I wonder how they are going to defeat her?

      (MOD). Please, guys, any season 6 speculation will be swiftly deleted.

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    • Let me start off by saying "Best Once Upon a Time season finale ever."

      I love Jekyll and Hyde already and want them to become regulars.

      I thought it was clever how they incorporated Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. I did not see that coming.

      I loved the Land of Untold Stories. I thought it was unique. 

      I thought these were the best episodes in a while. I hope they keep this momentum going.

      I was waiting for Evil Queen to kill Dragon. I wonder if they are headed to Storybrooke. 

      I'm expecting good things in Season 6.

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    • I'm excited to see how the Evil Queen will interact with Zelena. Guess this is long overdue, Zelena Finaly going to get a taste of what it really means to be evil, curious to see how strong really regina is when she was full Evil Queen mode, guess season 6 will show this part of her. 

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    • The Land of Untold Stories is described by Dr. Jekyll to be a refuge for various characters who came from various realms for various reasons.

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    • Eskaver
      Eskaver removed this reply because:
      deleting convo
      01:27, May 16, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Eskaver
      Eskaver removed this reply because:
      deleting convo
      01:27, May 16, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Am I the only one who feels this show is running in circles now?

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    • I'm glad they didn't drag out them being in Hyde's cell throughout these episodes and maybe half of season 6.

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    • A it clear to others where Rumple is? Do you think he's in SB with Hyde? Or did he venture off regarding this secret info Hyde gave him? I'm unclear.

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Am I the only one who feels this show is running in circles now?

      That's why it's the name of the episode. Probably the writers wanted to do this after season 2. DO what I do and just ignore parts of the show, lol.

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    • They kind of made progress. I think they're going for a ying and yang concept. Light and darkness need each other to be balanced, or something like that.

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    • DarlingDavies wrote:
      A it clear to others where Rumple is? Do you think he's in SB with Hyde? Or did he venture off regarding this secret info Hyde gave him? I'm unclear.

      Well, Rumple must have casted the spell to have them return...he's back in SB. Although it doesn't matter as long as he has the Merlin wand.

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    • Eskaver
      Eskaver removed this reply because:
      Not the place, disrespectful, minimodding (aka telling me how to mod)
      01:27, May 16, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Eskaver
      Eskaver removed this reply because:
      Just so the convo goes
      01:28, May 16, 2016
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    • OMG! Crazy episode. Jekyll and Hyde confirmed. A whole bunch of stories hinted at for the future (to discuss, I made this thread: http://onceuponatime.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:283028). Also, Good Regina VS Evil Queen. And finally, we found out Sir Morgan was indeed referencing someone (How did we not pick this up when we got his name in 5A? The character's name is Hank Morgan. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Connecticut_Yankee_in_King_Arthur%27s_Court) I don't even care about the events of the episode, I'm just so pumped for the possiblities of 6A, lol.

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    • Eskaver
      Eskaver removed this reply because:
      Unnecessary
      01:29, May 16, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • CoolDudeAl wrote: OMG! Crazy episode. Jekyll and Hyde confirmed. A whole bunch of stories hinted at for the future (to discuss, I made this thread: http://onceuponatime.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:283028). Also, Good Regina VS Evil Queen. And finally, we found out Sir Morgan was indeed referencing someone (How did we not pick this up when we got his name in 5A? The character's name is Hank Morgan. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Connecticut_Yankee_in_King_Arthur%27s_Court) I don't even care about the events of the episode, I'm just so pumped for the possiblities of 6A, lol.

      I totally did not understand this! I actually didn't understand what Violet was talking about, but I didn't care in the moment because I was so amped up. But I guess this is pretty cool.

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    • DarlingDavies wrote:

      Let's have fun discussing this awesome finale. Did you like it?

      Not really. I thought it was a little anti-climactic. Not to mention, Henry and Rumple pissed me off throughout the entire finale. The whole Hyde introduction to S6 I am not looking forward to, the only thing keeping me watching S6 is the EQ return. 

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    • Regina snarking at Regina. That will be something.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      DarlingDavies wrote:
      A it clear to others where Rumple is? Do you think he's in SB with Hyde? Or did he venture off regarding this secret info Hyde gave him? I'm unclear.

      Well, Rumple must have casted the spell to have them return...he's back in SB. Although it doesn't matter as long as he has the Merlin wand.

      So then the mystery between these men is what Hyde tells Rumple? Must be pretty good stuff to be "given" a town.

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    • DarlingDavies wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      DarlingDavies wrote:
      A it clear to others where Rumple is? Do you think he's in SB with Hyde? Or did he venture off regarding this secret info Hyde gave him? I'm unclear.
      Well, Rumple must have casted the spell to have them return...he's back in SB. Although it doesn't matter as long as he has the Merlin wand.

      So then the mystery between these men is what Hyde tells Rumple? Must be pretty good stuff to be "given" a town.

      I don't know how Hyde can be given something Rumple doesn't actually have. Plus, does Hyde have any real power or authority. It seemed like noone would really listen to some crazy guy.

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    • I really enjoyed the finale. It made me excited for next season (which I won't talk about!) And not every season finale does that.

      Even though some of the things that happened were somewhat obvious (Jekyll and Hyde, 2 Regina's)...for me it's not always about the end game, but how they get to that ending.

      I loved the world of Jekyll and Hyde - even though we didn't get to see much of it. Although I thought the fact that the 4 heroes had to go into it was sort of....old hat?

      Henry was annoying, no doubt....but he was passionate, and I can appreciate that. You have ot figure seeing as much as that kid has (he was in the Underworld for crying out loud) would wear on him and he would go off the rails, so to speak.

      The thing I liked most - which would maybe be something others wouldn't - is that a lot of the problems were wrapped up in a good amount of time. There was enough time for me to be concerned on how things would get resolved, but not so much time that I felt like it was dragging on. The pacing was decent, I guess.

      Lastly, I know there are a lot of complaints about plot holes and such...things popped up in this episode alone....but having spent the past couple of months re-watching from the first season with my kids, I find myself often assuring them that the answers they are looking for would come in a few episodes (or seasons!!) So I am resting in the fact that ultimately...things will turn right, even if they seem a mess right now.

      All in all I thought this was a perfect season ender....gave me just enough of everyone to want to hang on for more!

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    • Forgot to mention that Mark Isham did a number with the music, especially with the ending EQ theme which went up and then screechily evilly good!

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    • AWESOME Finale! They've hooked me for next season. 

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      AWESOME Finale! They've hooked me for next season. 

      Same here. Was hype while watching it and really was on the edge of my seat.

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    • All the stuff between Emma and Regina was SO good. It's like they finally said all the things they have wanted to say about who they are and who the other person is. You really felt like they were being honest with each other - especially Regina - she just really believed that she was never going to have a happy ending - and it wasn't coming from a mean place (like how she normally says it) but a broken place, which seemed more truthful.

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    • Oncer80 wrote: All the stuff between Emma and Regina was SO good. It's like they finally said all the things they have wanted to say about who they are and who the other person is. You really felt like they were being honest with each other - especially Regina - she just really believed that she was never going to have a happy ending - and it wasn't coming from a mean place (like how she normally says it) but a broken place, which seemed more truthful.

      That was good. Quite a long scene in Neal's apartment. Regina had a poignant monologue. Also, she looked stunning tonight.

      I love their friendship.

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    • DarlingDavies wrote:

      Oncer80 wrote: All the stuff between Emma and Regina was SO good. It's like they finally said all the things they have wanted to say about who they are and who the other person is. You really felt like they were being honest with each other - especially Regina - she just really believed that she was never going to have a happy ending - and it wasn't coming from a mean place (like how she normally says it) but a broken place, which seemed more truthful.

      That was good. Quite a long scene in Neal's apartment. Regina had a poignant monologue. Also, she looked stunning tonight.

      I love their friendship.

      I agree. Actually, almost thought they were going to affectionately embrace one another. But then again, I almost thought that Hyde was going to be Dracula and get me upset.

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    • Very interesting season finale. Overall I like the possibilities for next season.


      I'm very happy Violet was back because it gives Henry something to do other than being useless. I've been waiting for that kiss ever since Violet was introduced. Henry was such a clueless kid. Acting very rash and extreme. In essence getting rid of magic would be good BUT light magic is good too. Definite ying/ yang.


      Let's all cross our fingers we get to go back to the Land of Untold Stories. That was awesome! I'd love to see more of that land because it's a mix of all lands. I wonder what characters Hyde brought with him to SB.


      Before seeing Jykel take the serum I thought it was Dracula because of the blood in his eyes. I really hope we get to see him appear. 


      Yes, two Regina's was obvious. I wonder if Hyde and Jykel are still linked somehow still since they came from one body. Overall not too bad of a finale. I hope they do something different with this coming season though.

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    • When Henry was going through the other "Once Upon a Time" books in the New York Library's private reading room, there were pages showing Don Quixote and Paul Bunyan. I can't say who resides in the Land of Untold Stories. That will be for the creators and Season Six to reveal.

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    • Can I just say that I was hoping that Roland would stay with Regina? I never expected it to be a big part of the finale, but I was curious how that would change things for her (a topic for a different board)....and obviously we can sort of guess why the writers wouldn't let that happen...but watching him go was sad! 

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    • Oh and what's up with Emma and Hook talking and that wedding dress there in the middle O___O

      That was very subtle 

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    • Oncer80 wrote:
      Can I just say that I was hoping that Roland would stay with Regina? I never expected it to be a big part of the finale, but I was curious how that would change things for her (a topic for a different board)....and obviously we can sort of guess why the writers wouldn't let that happen...but watching him go was sad! 

      Little John is Roland's real father. Well, not really, but he does spend a lot of time with him. Regina has no real relation to Roland, but I'm sure if they ever get the wand back, Zelena, Regina, and Baby Hood will visit quite often.

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Oh and what's up with Emma and Hook talking and that wedding dress there in the middle O___O

      That was very subtle 

      Just being a tease. I hope they don;t end the series with a wedding. Wonderland did it perfectly and would like no retread.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Oncer80 wrote:
      Can I just say that I was hoping that Roland would stay with Regina? I never expected it to be a big part of the finale, but I was curious how that would change things for her (a topic for a different board)....and obviously we can sort of guess why the writers wouldn't let that happen...but watching him go was sad! 
      Little John is Roland's real father. Well, not really, but he does spend a lot of time with him. Regina has no real relation to Roland, but I'm sure if they ever get the wand back, Zelena, Regina, and Baby Hood will visit quite often.

      I never thought of it that way....it certainly makes sense why he wouldn't stay with Regina. 

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    • 8Rob wrote: Oh and what's up with Emma and Hook talking and that wedding dress there in the middle O___O

      That was very subtle 

      that was foreshadowing there future wedding. lol

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    • What I liked about the finale the most was them being able to mirror two of the major plotlines, Jekyll and Hyde with Regina and the Evil Queen, it even ended the same, Jekyll and Regina releasing their dark sides into seperate beings.

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    • Cjtrules15 wrote:
      Yes, two Regina's was obvious. I wonder if Hyde and Jykel are still linked somehow still since they came from one body. Overall not too bad of a finale. I hope they do something different with this coming season though.

      I'd say they have to be linked, because the Evil Queen survived after Regina crushed her heart. So, she has to be living through Regina

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Cjtrules15 wrote:
      Yes, two Regina's was obvious. I wonder if Hyde and Jykel are still linked somehow still since they came from one body. Overall not too bad of a finale. I hope they do something different with this coming season though.
      I'd say they have to be linked, because the Evil Queen survived after Regina crushed her heart. So, she has to be living through Regina

      Well, you can't just redeem yourself by killing a figment of who you are XD.

      Acceptance is probably the way to go and Rumple will be proven right and somehow still cast as a villain. Regina weirdly spoke in third person, then in first person, then in 3rd person.

      Regina was like, "The EQ did so many things. No, I did so many things." and then moments later, "Ler's get rid if her, the EQ." Pretty much something like that. It's like Regina was accepting herself, but then Snow comes in to ruin it all XD

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    • I wonder how the mods are going to handle this in the Regina and the Evil Queen pages lol

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    • 8Rob wrote: Oh and what's up with Emma and Hook talking and that wedding dress there in the middle O___O

      That was very subtle 

      Omg, yes. That was so blatant, I lol' while watching. I was thankful there wasn't a proposal. I'm fine just seeing CS as a couple. I don't need and engagement/wedding/baby. But kudos to the writers on getting that tease in tonight.

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    • I think it will end with them realizing you can't simply remove your evil side. Dr. Jekyll with Mr. Hyde and Regina with Evil Queen. Or alternatively, maybe Dr. Jekyll played them a fool. That must have some twisted inside him to produce the dark side of Mr. Hyde.

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    • Some won't agree with this (cause not everyone is a fan of them) but.....I could have stood to see a little more of Emma and Hook together. They spent all that time to get him back and he finally comes back and they are separated for almost the entire episode! Granted...I loved Hook's interactions with Zelena and the Charmings in the Steam Punk Land of Untold Stories...and Emma was right to tell him that she loved him in the 5 seconds they had alone - but yeah...I was looking for more of a payoff for them. 

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      I wonder how the mods are going to handle this in the Regina and the Evil Queen pages lol

      Well, the EQ that we see is technically some figment of the Jekyll potion.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Cjtrules15 wrote:
      Yes, two Regina's was obvious. I wonder if Hyde and Jykel are still linked somehow still since they came from one body. Overall not too bad of a finale. I hope they do something different with this coming season though.
      Well, you can't just redeem yourself by killing a figment of who you are XD.

      Acceptance is probably the way to go and Rumple will be proven right and somehow still cast as a villain. Regina weirdly spoke in third person, then in first person, then in 3rd person.

      It'll probably end with the EQ transforming into Regina and then merging together. Jekyll will sacrifice himself to kill Hyde. 

      I liked that they were setting up internal darkness since for the past season we've been dealing with an external darkness, THE Darkness then Hades. 

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    • I always have wrong expectations about the finale. I always think that for once, they are actually going to retake on stories they have left unfinished aka Will Scarlet, Black Fairy and others, but instead they just throw off a bunch of new characters. At least with untold stories people arriving at storybrooke there's room for new villains to emerge. Maybe villains that went to the untold stories realm to hide.

      Despite that, I think the finale was pretty good. I can feel a good hype!

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    • When they arrived at the land of untold stories I thought they were in Dr. WHALES land without color

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    • D.Prince wrote:
      When they arrived at the land of untold stories I thought they were in Dr. WHALES land without color

      I knew they wouldn't go there because.....um, the color, lol. Plus, they can;t resist making more realms XD

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    • Did anyone see the castle in the Land of Untold Stories and think of Cinderella's Castle in Disney World? It was atop a mountain/hill btw.

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    • ONCEFanandHappyHippo wrote:
      Did anyone see the castle in the Land of Untold Stories and think of Cinderella's Castle in Disney World? It was atop a mountain/hill btw.

      Yeah, but I was overwhelmed by all the visuals to notice. I was wondering who ruled that land. Gosh, I'm such a sucker for worldbuilding (which the show skirts around).

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    • Well, yeah. This land had color, I thought that maybe they were going to use color for Dr.Whales land from that point forward XD.

      Also, the Dragon is alive? Why is he so powerful? He used magic even after the holy grail absorbed all the magic. I'm missing something?

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    • He believe. :)

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    • D.Prince wrote:
      Well, yeah. This land had color, I thought that maybe they were going to use color for Dr.Whales land from that point forward XD.

      Also, the Dragon is alive? Why is he so powerful? He used magic even after the holy grail absorbed all the magic. I'm missing something?

      Haha, they don't want to ever revisit that. Well, I mean I don't. (I'm projecting a bit, but I wasn't a fan of the LWC and have no wish for Dracula and the things that make people scream at night and a whole arc of it). I applaud them for something creative. (Oh, and I think they quit using filters XD)

      Who knows, but the Dragon knows about secret, hidden magic in the LWM that noone else can use. Remember that hindsight breaks the plot. I mean, the Dragon would seem stronger or more capable than Rumple and even Pan, but then again, he gets easily beaten. And Henry apparently only got rid of SB's magic. All Rumple would need is two hairs from the Two Idiots (Snow and David) and he's settled back with introducing magic again.

      The more we ponder, the more questions we have.

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    • If King Arthur is from Connecticut, then why does he have a British accent? Is it part of his insanity?

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    • TrumpetofTheSwan wrote:
      If King Arthur is from Connecticut, then why does he have a British accent? Is it part of his insanity?

      King Arthur's not from Connecticut, Sir Morgan is.

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    • SAMMY!!!! Sammy being all evil and stuff!! SAMMY!! 

      The only thing that could be better than Sammy as hyde would have been Sammy as Galen. 

      But i will take hyde.. cus hes awesome and evil and just plain cool.

      cant wait to see what happens

      (also.. SAM please DONT die this time by getting impaled.. seriously, The son, STarkiller, Davis, Aiden, The Zombie solider, Crashdown, the Guy in No gods no masters, THEY ALL got IMPALED! please dont impale him! please!!)

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    • Roseprincess1 wrote:
      SAMMY!!!! Sammy being all evil and stuff!! SAMMY!! 

      The only thing that could be better than Sammy as hyde would have been Sammy as Galen. 

      But i will take hyde.. cus hes awesome and evil and just plain cool.

      cant wait to see what happens

      (also.. SAM please DONT die this time by getting impaled.. seriously, The son, STarkiller, Davis, Aiden, The Zombie solider, Crashdown, the Guy in No gods no masters, THEY ALL got IMPALED! please dont impale him! please!!)

      Well, I thought David was going to stake Hyde through the heart...

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Roseprincess1 wrote:
      SAMMY!!!! Sammy being all evil and stuff!! SAMMY!! 

      The only thing that could be better than Sammy as hyde would have been Sammy as Galen. 

      But i will take hyde.. cus hes awesome and evil and just plain cool.

      cant wait to see what happens

      (also.. SAM please DONT die this time by getting impaled.. seriously, The son, STarkiller, Davis, Aiden, The Zombie solider, Crashdown, the Guy in No gods no masters, THEY ALL got IMPALED! please dont impale him! please!!)

      Well, I thought David was going to stake Hyde through the heart...

      SEE! the poor man gets impaled once a role im telling you!!

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      TrumpetofTheSwan wrote:
      If King Arthur is from Connecticut, then why does he have a British accent? Is it part of his insanity?
      King Arthur's not from Connecticut, Sir Morgan is.

      go read 

      A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

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    • Roseprincess1 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Roseprincess1 wrote:
      SAMMY!!!! Sammy being all evil and stuff!! SAMMY!! 

      The only thing that could be better than Sammy as hyde would have been Sammy as Galen. 

      But i will take hyde.. cus hes awesome and evil and just plain cool.

      cant wait to see what happens

      (also.. SAM please DONT die this time by getting impaled.. seriously, The son, STarkiller, Davis, Aiden, The Zombie solider, Crashdown, the Guy in No gods no masters, THEY ALL got IMPALED! please dont impale him! please!!)

      Well, I thought David was going to stake Hyde through the heart...
      SEE! the poor man gets impaled once a role im telling you!!

      Well, see how, Hook (5A), then Hades (5B) get impaled......best of luck!

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Roseprincess1 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Roseprincess1 wrote:
      SAMMY!!!! Sammy being all evil and stuff!! SAMMY!! 

      The only thing that could be better than Sammy as hyde would have been Sammy as Galen. 

      But i will take hyde.. cus hes awesome and evil and just plain cool.

      cant wait to see what happens

      (also.. SAM please DONT die this time by getting impaled.. seriously, The son, STarkiller, Davis, Aiden, The Zombie solider, Crashdown, the Guy in No gods no masters, THEY ALL got IMPALED! please dont impale him! please!!)

      Well, I thought David was going to stake Hyde through the heart...
      SEE! the poor man gets impaled once a role im telling you!!
      Well, see how, Hook (5A), then Hades (5B) get impaled......best of luck!

      well.. in sams case.. everysingle person he has played got stabbed at least once

      so im sure hyde will to

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    • Roseprincess1 wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      TrumpetofTheSwan wrote:
      If King Arthur is from Connecticut, then why does he have a British accent? Is it part of his insanity?
      King Arthur's not from Connecticut, Sir Morgan is.
      go read 

      A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

      Or I can just read the Wikipedia article, that tells me that Hank Morgan and King Arthur are two different characters. Link:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Connecticut_Yankee_in_King_Arthur%27s_Court

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    • Peter Pan and the Wicked Witch also got stabbed when they were the big bads in their respective arcs.

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    • I think Sam Witwer and Hank Harris were great! I had reservations about them straying away from the more traditional fairytales to these other literary stories, but I'm totally on board. I found the Snow/David/Hook/Zelena/Jekyll/Hyde storyline super compelling, especially compared to the other one lead by Henry. I can only take him in small doses, haha. 

      I did think it was a little strange that Regina kept talking about "the Evil Queen" as if she was a whole separate person - I think her situation was quite different than Jekyll & Hyde. I guess we shall see what exactly's going to be happening there. Anyways, I still don't see why Robin had to die and they didn't give us anything yet as to how his death will be furthering the story, so I'll be waiting. 

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    • Definitely not what I expected, but then Once has that way sometimes.

      Overall a good episode.  I particularly liked the way it opened up the show to more stories outside of just fairytales. Nice work. (and making Sir Morgan the Connecticut Yankee was brilliance),

      As for the comments about LWC, I actually got the feel that Dr. Jeckyll's lab was very similar to some of Victors lab.  The reason we saw it in color is that they are not in the LWC, but in the LUS. I would imagine that there may be a few escapees from the LWC that moved to the LUS.

      As for splitting Regina, I'm not quite sure how I feel on that one yet.  On one hand it could make for an interesting story, and it might allow for the EQ to be served a huge dose of Justice for her atrocities. But I actually liked Regina as the conflicted character she has become. She knows that she did horrific things, and after the monologue in Neals/Robins apartment, I think that we get a good sense of the guilt and remorse she now feels for what she did. It seems too easy to just seperate the "evil' part. (and from a mental health perspective, I think it sends a very poor message to people that suffer from things like DID, Schizophrenia, BiPolar, etc.)

      Still overall a good and enjoyable episode. More to come.

      One problem I have is what happened to the townline issues, that Henry, Violet, Gold, Emma, and Regina can all just walk out of town. Did the writers forget that there is a spell on the town line to prevent people from just crossing?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Definitely not what I expected, but then Once has that way sometimes.

      Overall a good episode.  I particularly liked the way it opened up the show to more stories outside of just fairytales. Nice work. (and making Sir Morgan the Connecticut Yankee was brilliance),

      As for the comments about LWC, I actually got the feel that Dr. Jeckyll's lab was very similar to some of Victors lab.  The reason we saw it in color is that they are not in the LWC, but in the LUS. I would imagine that there may be a few escapees from the LWC that moved to the LUS.

      As for splitting Regina, I'm not quite sure how I feel on that one yet.  On one hand it could make for an interesting story, and it might allow for the EQ to be served a huge dose of Justice for her atrocities. But I actually liked Regina as the conflicted character she has become. She knows that she did horrific things, and after the monologue in Neals/Robins apartment, I think that we get a good sense of the guilt and remorse she now feels for what she did. It seems too easy to just seperate the "evil' part. (and from a mental health perspective, I think it sends a very poor message to people that suffer from things like DID, Schizophrenia, BiPolar, etc.)

      Still overall a good and enjoyable episode. More to come.

      One problem I have is what happened to the townline issues, that Henry, Violet, Gold, Emma, and Regina can all just walk out of town. Did the writers forget that there is a spell on the town line to prevent people from just crossing?

      I'm guessing the spell was broken when Dark Swan/Dark Hook was over. Now if someone could untree Dopey, that would be nice. XD

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:

      One problem I have is what happened to the townline issues, that Henry, Violet, Gold, Emma, and Regina can all just walk out of town. Did the writers forget that there is a spell on the town line to prevent people from just crossing?

      I'm guessing the spell was broken when Dark Swan/Dark Hook was over. Now if someone could untree Dopey, that would be nice. XD

      Yeah, I think at this point, they could get away with saying that the curse was broken when Emma drove Excalibur through Hook and we saw her become herself again. 

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:

      As for the comments about LWC, I actually got the feel that Dr. Jeckyll's lab was very similar to some of Victors lab.  The reason we saw it in color is that they are not in the LWC, but in the LUS. I would imagine that there may be a few escapees from the LWC that moved to the LUS.

      One problem I have is what happened to the townline issues, that Henry, Violet, Gold, Emma, and Regina can all just walk out of town. Did the writers forget that there is a spell on the town line to prevent people from just crossing?

      I'm guessing the spell was broken when Dark Swan/Dark Hook was over. Now if someone could untree Dopey, that would be nice. XD

      Jekyll & Hyde could be refugees from LWC, we don't know for sure. They never said they are natives to the LUS.


      Way to remember the town line spell and Dopey! More plotholes and forgotten minor characters. I think the town line now just serves to keep SB invisible to everyone except residence. Dopey has just been forgotten but he can be an example of how the heroes are always getting into quest after quest after quest and never really repairing the damage that happened from the previous quest. 

      If I was from Camelot I would of been pissed to not have been able to go home until they FINALLY used the wand to make a door for everyone. I'm curious, now that all the old/ original residence are gone, who did Hyde bring to fill the town up now?

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    • JennaMae wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:

      One problem I have is what happened to the townline issues, that Henry, Violet, Gold, Emma, and Regina can all just walk out of town. Did the writers forget that there is a spell on the town line to prevent people from just crossing?

      I'm guessing the spell was broken when Dark Swan/Dark Hook was over. Now if someone could untree Dopey, that would be nice. XD
      Yeah, I think at this point, they could get away with saying that the curse was broken when Emma drove Excalibur through Hook and we saw her become herself again. 

      They could say that, but I'm not buying.

      before the first curse was broken, it was just "bad things happen if you try to cross the town line". After the first curse broke, it was "You forget who your FTL persona was 'permanently'" (Sneezy/Mr.Clark and Belle/Lacey). After second curse was cast and everyone returned, it was back to "Bad things happen when you approach the border", in this case being nabbed and changed into a flying monkey. Then the frozen wall was next, simply preventing escape. Once that was gone, it was "You cross, you can't return, at least not without a magical mcguffin". Then with the third curse, before it was broken, is where you have turning into a tree.

      So, the first question is did Emma killing Killian with Excalibur break the curse? I am personally not sure, but it is possible (and I'm still not buying it without a better explanation). Second, what replaced the tree conversion. I find it hard to believe that there is NOTHING at the border to prevent people from crossing, and more importantly, preventing outsiders from entering.

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    • This episode was really great, it actually mage Season 5 worth watching. The introduction of the Land of Untold Stories was really awesome. I really like the visual of this world. Interesting.

      Then there's the town line problem where it's never stated on the "turning into a tree" problem yet they still managed to get out. 

      Another problem is Sir Morgan being a LWM character. So a LWM character managed to somehow get to Camelot (which is within FTL) yet Rumplestiltskin couldn't find his way to the LWM from FTL and took him like what 100 years? 200? and also by using a curse. Hopefully Violet is lying and this will all be resolved next season, or else, this is a serious plot issue.

      Seeing the introdcuction of the Dragon was awesome. Since there's no proof that he's dead, hopefully the Evil Queen brings him into Storybrooke for more caous, since he's clearly pwerful and it would be fun to see the Evil Queen controlling him and doing all the dirty work. Can't wait to see the "friends" brought oever from the LoUS.

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    • Onceuponatimeuser97 wrote:

      Another problem is Sir Morgan being a LWM character. So a LWM character managed to somehow get to Camelot (which is within FTL) yet Rumplestiltskin couldn't find his way to the LWM from FTL and took him like what 100 years? 200? and also by using a curse. Hopefully Violet is lying and this will all be resolved next season, or else, this is a serious plot issue.

      Violet is not lying about her father, as A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court is a well-known novel by Mark Twain.

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    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:
      Onceuponatimeuser97 wrote:
      Another problem is Sir Morgan being a LWM character. So a LWM character managed to somehow get to Camelot (which is within FTL) yet Rumplestiltskin couldn't find his way to the LWM from FTL and took him like what 100 years? 200? and also by using a curse. Hopefully Violet is lying and this will all be resolved next season, or else, this is a serious plot issue.
      Violet is not lying about her father, as A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court is a well-known novel by Mark Twain.

      I know, but that is a novel with the character. It is something like Alice in Wonderland or 101 Dalmations or the Wizard of Oz (Dorothy). The stories are in our world but the characters are not. But I don't really mind him being from the LWM, it is just that Rumplestiltskin couldn't find his way to the LWM from FTL and took him like what 100 years? 200? and also by using a curse but Sir Morgan found a way to go FROM the LWM TO Camelot. It's kinda a plot issue and kinda messes the whole idea of the show which involved the curse. 

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    • No, it does not. Peter Pan was able to open portals to the LWM. 

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    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:
      No, it does not. Peter Pan was able to open portals to the LWM. 

      Yeah because Pan is from a land WITH magic. And I don't recall Pan opening portals, his shadow (or a shadow ; I forgot which is which)

      I'm talking about Sir Morgan coming from a land WITHOUT magic to a land WITH magic but Rumple who took centuries to do so from a land WITH magic to a land WITHOUT magic.

      Seems like plot holes to me considering Sir Morgan is just plain Morgan from our land and managed to get himself to Camelot.

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    • This is the BEST OUAT season finale ever. So many things to talk about.

      • Jekyll/Hyde I kinda didn't see coming. It was rumoured but now it is confirmed. I really like that they are two different bodies so that it is more of a physical conflict as well as psychological. Hyde was amazing and I'm so glad he is the 6A villain along with Evil Queen. Jekyll doesn't really have much character seeing how he is the nice one and everyone loves the evil one but he's alright.
      • The land of untold stories is incredibly designed. Kind of reminded me of Wonderland meets steampunk. Hope to see more of that.
      • I didn't like Henry at all during the finale. I dislike him during his first attempt to destroy magic in S2, hated him in this one.
      • So when Snowing, Hook and Zelena came back in front of a large group of people, did any of them say anything about it? Surely someone was recording it.
      • The Dragon was somewhat wasted yet again. He served his purpose and then Evil Queen rips his heart out. She may not kill him and use him for own ends but does the Dragon ever fight back?
      • FINALLY wrapped up 5a's storyline in one scene. I'm still surprised they left that hanging for such a long time.
      • Rumple is still being a douche that no one should trust.

      So overall, amazing episode. Looking forward to S6.

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    • SnowKingTE wrote:
      This is the BEST OUAT season finale ever. So many things to talk about.
      • Jekyll/Hyde I kinda didn't see coming. It was rumoured but now it is confirmed. I really like that they are two different bodies so that it is more of a physical conflict as well as psychological. Hyde was amazing and I'm so glad he is the 6A villain along with Evil Queen. Jekyll doesn't really have much character seeing how he is the nice one and everyone loves the evil one but he's alright.
      • The land of untold stories is incredibly designed. Kind of reminded me of Wonderland meets steampunk. Hope to see more of that.
      • I didn't like Henry at all during the finale. I dislike him during his first attempt to destroy magic in S2, hated him in this one.
      • So when Snowing, Hook and Zelena came back in front of a large group of people, did any of them say anything about it? Surely someone was recording it.
      • The Dragon was somewhat wasted yet again. He served his purpose and then Evil Queen rips his heart out. She may not kill him and use him for own ends but does the Dragon ever fight back?
      • FINALLY wrapped up 5a's storyline in one scene. I'm still surprised they left that hanging for such a long time.
      • Rumple is still being a douche that no one should trust.

      So overall, amazing episode. Looking forward to S6.

      The Dragon reminds me of one of those peaceful, pacifist monks. Maybe that's why he didn't fight back. He doesn't believe in using magic to harm.

      It'll be interesting to see how Hyde interacts with EQ or if they do at all. Who will be the bigger threat? Right now Hyde is just super strong, not a very big villain compared to EQ. We see Hyde and Jekyll use science to create magic just like LWC Frankenstein so Hyde doesn't have magic.

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    • Was I the only one who saw a huge plot hole?

      The writers seemed to forget that the Evil Queen's heart was crushed when they made her poof into the Dragon's shop(!)?

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    • Operation Mixtape...

      ...

      ...


      Really?

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    • I really enjoyed this episode. It was the best finale ever since "Going Home". What made this episode so great for me is characters dealing with internal conflicts, the dysfunctional family dynamic and I really fell in love with Regina all over again.

      My problems with this episode is disregarding Dopey-tree and apparently the twon line is no longer a thing, so what was the point in doing that in 502?! and how Snow and Charming are friends with the woman who kidnapped their baby.

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    • Green Room wrote:
      Was I the only one who saw a huge plot hole?

      The writers seemed to forget that the Evil Queen's heart was crushed when they made her poof into the Dragon's shop(!)?

      Technically, the Evil Queen and her heart isn't really a true living thing. Regina just pulled out another persona character of her, in this case, the Evil Queen. So I guess killing through the crushing of the heart might not work here.

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    • Amazing finale. I loved it all. 

      Was nice to see the new story books that Henry found, especially since we saw pictures of Gullivers travels and others. I hope Jekyll/Hyde are from the land without colour and that is where Gold has gone.

      Loved the Jekyll and Hyde reveal. I was not expecting it at all. Both actors played their parts exceptionally well.

      Loved the Land of Untold Stories. So intriguing and it looks amazing. I also hope we see Fillius Fog as we saw his air ballons. So is this a land where people go after their stories have been told or for those that have no story at all? Reason I ask because obviously Jekyll/Hyde have a story, we even see it in the storybook. The writers need to give us a little more detail about this world and how people get there. Hopefully we learn more next season.

      Two Regina's? I love it. I also like how we see Regina coping with all the evil things she has done and seeing her baggage will never leave her. (until she seperates the EQ that is) I also loved the moments she shared with Emma in Robin/Neals apartment especially with the Robin Hood book. The scene with her and Snow was also nice.

      Magic was awesome in this episode. I loved it. CGI was great too, magic blasts and world creations. It was magical! lol.

      Who has Hyde brought back to Storybrook? That should be interesting!

      Henry was a little annoying but he did not grate on me in the epsisode and he did have good reasons for destroying magic, his relationship with everyone was expressed with intrigue. He hates his grandpa, respects Regina, is angry with Emma for not beliving in Regina, he missed and hoped to be reunited with Snow and Charming and he has fallen in love and kissed the daughter of the conneticut yankee. He did alright. 

      The scene with the guests of Camelot going back home was nice, seeing Roland say goodbye to his mother/aunt was nice, he gave the feathers from one of Robin's arrows to Regina and kissed his baby sister which was quiet sad. He even got a kiss from granny. Although I am confused how they were just able to generate a portal back that just looked like the Door to Arendale in the Apprentices house. Which reminds me to ask this question. Why did they not just go through that door way with a note from Snow and Charming asking Elsa and Anna to provide ships to sail them back to the Enchanted Forest? Also another question, how come the portal chose another destination midway through that took the heroes to the LUS instead of Camelot with the others? Or did the others such as Merida end up in the same world?

      If Storybrook had no magic, did that mean that Malificent just turned to ash during that period. Bit awkward for her, especially if it happened while she was having lunch with Lilly just at the moment when she was about to tell Lilly who her father was. Mmmmm! Also would Dopey have returned to normal without magic?

      They could have left the town because Gold tethered the magic of the entire town so surely the curesed townline would not be cursed anymore? Even when magic returned to Storybrook it doesn't mean every spell or curse would return to the same place etc.

      Also liked the small scene when Hook first comes back and he and Charming have a hug in the background. Its nice Charming seems to be coming around to having Hook as a son in law? Maybe? That scene at the end when Emma tells Hook she loves him has a hint of a possible marriage between them. Although without Robin he has noone to be his best man. I suppose he could have Henry but I imagine Henry for more page boy then best man. 

      LOVED THIS FINALE!!!!! :)

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:

      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Definitely not what I expected, but then Once has that way sometimes.

      Overall a good episode.  I particularly liked the way it opened up the show to more stories outside of just fairytales. Nice work. (and making Sir Morgan the Connecticut Yankee was brilliance),

      As for the comments about LWC, I actually got the feel that Dr. Jeckyll's lab was very similar to some of Victors lab.  The reason we saw it in color is that they are not in the LWC, but in the LUS. I would imagine that there may be a few escapees from the LWC that moved to the LUS.

      As for splitting Regina, I'm not quite sure how I feel on that one yet.  On one hand it could make for an interesting story, and it might allow for the EQ to be served a huge dose of Justice for her atrocities. But I actually liked Regina as the conflicted character she has become. She knows that she did horrific things, and after the monologue in Neals/Robins apartment, I think that we get a good sense of the guilt and remorse she now feels for what she did. It seems too easy to just seperate the "evil' part. (and from a mental health perspective, I think it sends a very poor message to people that suffer from things like DID, Schizophrenia, BiPolar, etc.)

      Still overall a good and enjoyable episode. More to come.

      One problem I have is what happened to the townline issues, that Henry, Violet, Gold, Emma, and Regina can all just walk out of town. Did the writers forget that there is a spell on the town line to prevent people from just crossing?

      I'm guessing the spell was broken when Dark Swan/Dark Hook was over. Now if someone could untree Dopey, that would be nice. XD

      I guess will have to wait next season for him to change back.

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    • I can see upcoming deaths next season caused by the evil queen. Probably either one or two major characters.

      I do hope we get more focus on the Charmings, the return of Dopey, the return of Red/Dorothy/Mulan, and most likely new or old friends of Snow (like she had with Lancelot, Ariel, and Hercules).

      And I can't wait to see Belle awake and most likely we will see her and Rumple's baby born at last. And if a major character dies next season, they probably might name it after that person like they did with Neal and Robin.

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    • One interesting thing in this episode was how Hyde was seemingly invulnerable to magic, but then the taser and Rumple had no problem. Should have took that taser with them. I'm guessing Hyde is some magical monster with Jekyll a practioner of magic. Because Jekyll knew how to fix the wand and Hyde knew how to cast a spell that crossed realms briefly.

      What is Hyde's goal? Lackey to Rumple, it seems. They had a ridiculous "And I've brought my friends" gesturing to absolutely noone. Like, you set up a wideshot, but chose to not have anything being shown. Hyde's goal of finishing stories is random and weird.

      Also, how did Hyde even know that this was a land of untold stories. That seems really meta and Jekyll and Hyde and all those other stories are told. How do people get there? Who rules that land? Why does he know the "land's name"? Rumple? Isaac? ...?????

      "Your questions are pointl----I mean, keep watching!" Thanks, writers! XD

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    • Another thing puzzles me. What happened between Hyde and Rumple? I understand that there was a history between them before the curse. But I wonder what Rumple did to him. Maybe we will see a flashback of their history next season.

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    • Nope, I can't even stop there. There are even more relevant plot-breaking questions to ask--like, How is there magic in a land without magic? Does a magic bean simply not care? Did the Apprentice know that this wasn't a land without magic? Why can't the god-like powered Dark One use magic there?

      But specifically to this episode and ignoring the others, why couldn't Henry simply writer "And there was no more magic in Storybrooke"? I know it would be no fun, but Henry doesn't write Hoook back to life in the Underworld, doesn't write the Darkness out of his Dark One mother, doesn't help them escape the Underworld, but chooses to abuse his powers to get the Olympian crystal and nothing else? I mean, he has a reality warping pen, for Emma's sake! At least spout exposition nonsense...like in the UW, Henry continued not using the power selfishly because he wanted the Apprenntice to go to the better place, I guess he doesn't care anymore?!

      Well, I guess it's time for me to rewatch the episode, which was still alot of fun, but when you think about it.....

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    • NickyHelp wrote:
      Another thing puzzles me. What happened between Hyde and Rumple? I understand that there was a history between them before the curse. But I wonder what Rumple did to him. Maybe we will see a flashback of their history next season.

      Yeah, right when Hyde is defeated, next season.

      One interesting thing was that Hyde told Rumple that there's a place where Rumple can save Belle from the Sleeping curse. Netherworld? I woder what Rumple's journey will be because I don't think he's sitting around in Storybrooke.

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    • I'll make a post about this properly, but....the "heroes" don't seem to care about Belle at all. This episode is no exception.

      Rumple uses the crystal that the heroes stupidly left on the ground. --Bad Rumple, shouldn't pick that up.

      Rumple tethers the magic in order to save his wife and child. --Bad Rumple just wants more power since he won't stop there.

      Rumple chases after Henry to get the crystal to save a pregnant Belle from dying without magic. ---Bad Rumple because he would hurt Henry....whic he did no such thing.

      Rumple uses the heroes in order to create a portal to that wierd world. --Bad Rumple (and Emma and Regina) because Henry has "reasons".

      Rumple uses the convenient portal to go save Belle. ---Bad Rumple is up to no good. Guys, let's forget that Belle went with us to go "Save Emma" and has helped us so many times.

      Get rid of the Rumple part if you think he's a crazy jerk, but you still get the heroes not helping someone that has helped them in the past and not bat an eye or care.

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    • Rewatching now. I forgot about this moment that I really liked: Regina calling out Emma.  "When you're upset, we follow you to the UW.  When I"m upset, I get a time-out.".  I really liked that candidness that Regina had with Emma.  They friends, family.  And that bond keeps growing and allows them to be blunt w/ eachother but always seems to pull them closer (FFWD to their scene in Neal's apartment.).  Just another reason I love their friendship.  

      (I'm hoping for Zelena to become a big part of their sisterhood, but that's something I can discuss on hopes and dreams for season 6 threads.)

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    • One thing I would say is that the characters are slowly becoming more consumed and "moved" by plot.

      I can get over Regina and Zelena's "moved by plot" relationship growth, eventually. But we also had the second episode of the season, Emma speaks to Regina saying, "You know as well as I do. There's no good or evil versions of ourselves. It's just me." to the second to last episode of the season having Emma think the evil version of Regina would come out to play. It's like the wirters simply move these pawns around to suit the narrative shown.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      I'll make a post about this properly, but....the "heroes" don't seem to care about Belle at all. This episode is no exception.

      Rumple uses the crystal that the heroes stupidly left on the ground. --Bad Rumple, shouldn't pick that up.

      Rumple tethers the magic in order to save his wife and child. --Bad Rumple just wants more power since he won't stop there.

      Rumple chases after Henry to get the crystal to save a pregnant Belle from dying without magic. ---Bad Rumple because he would hurt Henry....whic he did no such thing.

      Rumple uses the heroes in order to create a portal to that wierd world. --Bad Rumple (and Emma and Regina) because Henry has "reasons".

      Rumple uses the convenient portal to go save Belle. ---Bad Rumple is up to no good. Guys, let's forget that Belle went with us to go "Save Emma" and has helped us so many times.

      Get rid of the Rumple part if you think he's a crazy jerk, but you still get the heroes not helping someone that has helped them in the past and not bat an eye or care.

      I agree and I'm done with it. If people treated me the way the "Heroes" treated Belle, I would be exactly like Rumple and wouldn't give a damn about them and their petty problems. Heroism is not only about helping the people who are connected to you, it's also about caring about the little folks and the greater good.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      One thing I would say is that the characters are slowly becoming more consumed and "moved" by plot.

      I can get over Regina and Zelena's "moved by plot" relationship growth, eventually. But we also had the second episode of the season, Emma speaks to Regina saying, "You know as well as I do. There's no good or evil versions of ourselves. It's just me." to the second to last episode of the season having Emma think the evil version of Regina would come out to play. It's like the wirters simply move these pawns around to suit the narrative shown.

      That's what I've been saying since season 3B.

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    • One more comment about my rewatch: Hyde says "we're trapped here", regarding the LUS.  so my logic would tell me that Hyde, Jekyll and crew inside that asylum are actually from a different realm.  But they were moved to LUS?  No one originates there?  It just exists as a refuge?

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    • DarlingDavies wrote:
      One more comment about my rewatch: Hyde says "we're trapped here", regarding the LUS.  so my logic would tell me that Hyde, Jekyll and crew inside that asylum are actually from a different realm.  But they were moved to LUS?  No one originates there?  It just exists as a refuge?

      I think, Hyde was referring, to everyone being trapped in the LoUS. Besides, it was probably Rumplestiltskin who banished Jekyll/Hyde.

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    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:
      DarlingDavies wrote:
      One more comment about my rewatch: Hyde says "we're trapped here", regarding the LUS.  so my logic would tell me that Hyde, Jekyll and crew inside that asylum are actually from a different realm.  But they were moved to LUS?  No one originates there?  It just exists as a refuge?
      I think, Hyde was referring, to everyone being trapped in the LoUS. Besides, it was probably Rumplestiltskin who banished Jekyll/Hyde.

      hmm, interesting.  yes, maybe this is the reason why JH knows the DO.  maybe rumple banished them there.  but i wonder if the other inhabitants went their willingly.  i guess we'll find out next fall...

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    • Rewatching the episode, Henry was really, and I mean really, into Henry. Henry being the dweeb he is doesn't see it.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Rewatching the episode, Henry was really, and I mean really, into Henry. Henry being the dweeb he is doesn't see it.

      I wanted to slap that ungrateful kid across the face, throughout the entire episode.

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    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Rewatching the episode, Henry was really, and I mean really, into Henry. Henry being the dweeb he is doesn't see it.
      I wanted to slap that ungrateful kid across the face, throughout the entire episode.

      Rumple was awfully nice. I would have at least strangled him for a little bit.

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    • One thing I don't get - was Henry going to destroy all magic from all realms or just Storybrooke's? Because even if Storybrooke no longer had magic, Zelena should have no problem using the Apprentice's wand (once they got it repaired) to travel to TLWM. I mean, the Apprentice created a portal for Ingrid even before the first curse was cast i.e. no magic in Storybrooke world. The whole urgency in the episode just seems rather unwarranted. 

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    • Toma Cre wrote:
      One thing I don't get - was Henry going to destroy all magic from all realms or just Storybrooke's? Because even if Storybrooke no longer had magic, Zelena should have no problem using the Apprentice's wand (once they got it repaired) to travel to TLWM. I mean, the Apprentice created a portal for Ingrid even before the first curse was cast i.e. no magic in Storybrooke world. The whole urgency in the episode just seems rather unwarranted. 

      I think it would be from all realms. Apparently the Grail and its twin control "all the magic". The way they showed it, only SB's and the crystal's magic went somewhere...........Zelena was still fireballing things too, so it depends when that occured.....and the Dragon clearly used magic......

      I'll have to check.

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    • Green Room wrote:
      Was I the only one who saw a huge plot hole?

      The writers seemed to forget that the Evil Queen's heart was crushed when they made her poof into the Dragon's shop(!)?

      I think part of it has to do with dark magic being used to "kill" the Evil Queen. The other part is yeah, she's still connected to Regina.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Toma Cre wrote:
      One thing I don't get - was Henry going to destroy all magic from all realms or just Storybrooke's? Because even if Storybrooke no longer had magic, Zelena should have no problem using the Apprentice's wand (once they got it repaired) to travel to TLWM. I mean, the Apprentice created a portal for Ingrid even before the first curse was cast i.e. no magic in Storybrooke world. The whole urgency in the episode just seems rather unwarranted. 

      Apparently, Henry destroyed magic (SB's magic), but The Dragon used magic promptly after. Yep, the Dragon says that Henry only destroyed Storybrooke's magic.

      The sense of urgency was that SB would be destroyed, but then they cut the suspense because Rumple made that up.

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    • MyPretties wrote:
      Green Room wrote:
      Was I the only one who saw a huge plot hole?

      The writers seemed to forget that the Evil Queen's heart was crushed when they made her poof into the Dragon's shop(!)?

      I think part of it has to do with dark magic being used to "kill" the Evil Queen. The other part is yeah, she's still connected to Regina.

      Dr Jekyll did say that everyone has their own image of what their dark side looks like. Maybe Regina's image of the Evil Queen is of a relentless, indestructible force. Something that can't be conquered no matter how hard she tries i.e. invincible.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • This finale raised way to many questions:

      Who is the dragon? Why is he still alive? Are we ever going to see him again? Was there a point in bringing him back?

      How did Rumpel get back to Storybrooke? Is he going to spend the next half season trying to wake Belle? If so, then when are we even going to get to the baby?

      How is Violet's father from Connecticut? How did he get to Camelot? At the time there was no magic or even any known fairy tale characters in this world. Sir Morgan was born around the 40s and Violet was born around 1973. This means he arrived in Camelot long before the curse. Are we even going to get an explanation? Violet left at the end of the episode.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Begfhn wrote:
      This finale raised way to many questions:

      Who is the dragon? Why is he still alive? Are we ever going to see him again? Was there a point in bringing him back?

      How did Rumpel get back to Storybrooke? Is he going to spend the next half season trying to wake Belle? If so, then when are we even going to get to the baby?

      How is Violet's father from Connecticut? How did he get to Camelot? At the time there was no magic or even any known fairy tale characters in this world. Sir Morgan was born around the 40s and Violet was born around 1973. This means he arrived in Camelot long before the curse. Are we even going to get an explanation? Violet left at the end of the episode.

      The Dragon, Rumple and Belle, and Violet (she didn't leave, she is staying in SB) will all certainly be part of the plot of 6A, so you should get answers to most (if not all) those questions.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Begfhn wrote:
      This finale raised way to many questions:

      Who is the dragon? Why is he still alive? Are we ever going to see him again? Was there a point in bringing him back?

      How did Rumpel get back to Storybrooke? Is he going to spend the next half season trying to wake Belle? If so, then when are we even going to get to the baby?

      How is Violet's father from Connecticut? How did he get to Camelot? At the time there was no magic or even any known fairy tale characters in this world. Sir Morgan was born around the 40s and Violet was born around 1973. This means he arrived in Camelot long before the curse. Are we even going to get an explanation? Violet left at the end of the episode.

      The Dragon, Rumple and Belle, and Violet (she didn't leave, she is staying in SB) will all certainly be part of the plot of 6A, so you should get answers to most (if not all) those questions.

      I'm banking on the Dragon "dying" offscreen or something. I mean, if Pan couldn't kill the Dragon, why would the Evil Queen be able to?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Actually, it was Tamara that attempted to kill the Dragon.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Begfhn wrote:
      This finale raised way to many questions:

      Who is the dragon? Why is he still alive? Are we ever going to see him again? Was there a point in bringing him back?

      How did Rumpel get back to Storybrooke? Is he going to spend the next half season trying to wake Belle? If so, then when are we even going to get to the baby?

      How is Violet's father from Connecticut? How did he get to Camelot? At the time there was no magic or even any known fairy tale characters in this world. Sir Morgan was born around the 40s and Violet was born around 1973. This means he arrived in Camelot long before the curse. Are we even going to get an explanation? Violet left at the end of the episode.

      The Dragon, Rumple and Belle, and Violet (she didn't leave, she is staying in SB) will all certainly be part of the plot of 6A, so you should get answers to most (if not all) those questions.
      I'm banking on the Dragon "dying" offscreen or something. I mean, if Pan couldn't kill the Dragon, why would the Evil Queen be able to?

      I think Dragon will be part of 6A. He may even be Lily's father. I mean, why else bring him back in the finale of Season 5?

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    • Rtkat3 wrote:
      Actually, it was Tamara that attempted to kill the Dragon.

      Pan's magic. Tamara was just the minion that used it.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Begfhn wrote:
      This finale raised way to many questions:

      Who is the dragon? Why is he still alive? Are we ever going to see him again? Was there a point in bringing him back?

      How did Rumpel get back to Storybrooke? Is he going to spend the next half season trying to wake Belle? If so, then when are we even going to get to the baby?

      How is Violet's father from Connecticut? How did he get to Camelot? At the time there was no magic or even any known fairy tale characters in this world. Sir Morgan was born around the 40s and Violet was born around 1973. This means he arrived in Camelot long before the curse. Are we even going to get an explanation? Violet left at the end of the episode.

      The Dragon, Rumple and Belle, and Violet (she didn't leave, she is staying in SB) will all certainly be part of the plot of 6A, so you should get answers to most (if not all) those questions.
      I'm banking on the Dragon "dying" offscreen or something. I mean, if Pan couldn't kill the Dragon, why would the Evil Queen be able to?
      I think Dragon will be part of 6A. He may even be Lily's father. I mean, why else bring him back in the finale of Season 5?

      Well, let me tell you a story of how all the wise, old magic men die in Once.....

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    • Ok, I'll post this (my longer review of the episode) first, then start responding to other posts...

      I'm not going to say that this was the best episode of the season, because it wasn't. But it was a good episode. There was sufficient action, the conflict was well contained, the character development actually happened.

      Regina and Emma's conversation in the NYC Apartment (Seriously, who is paying the rent on that place?) was fantastic, because we got to see a side of Regina that we rarely get. Regina is a very introspective and private character, so to see her open up about what she did as the EQ, and how that has affected who she is now, was very refreshing. She knows what she did in the past, and is truly remorseful about what she did. She knows she can't undo it, and she feels like she's trapped in a place between the Dark and the Light. She appears to be unable to forgive herself, even when her friends have forgiven her (Snow's statement of that at the end of the episode confirms the external forgiveness from others).

      Also, Emma wanting to at least attempt to be "delicate" in revealing that Killian is back shows some growth in her character, and in her respect for Regina. Of course, she immediately backslid when she tried to bench Regina. Emma can be hypocritical at times, and Regina (angry and hurt as she was) had a good point in confronting Emma about that hypocrisy, and I thought handled it as well as could be expected.

      Also, I had to think about Henry's involvement. But in the end I like what they did, and I think that they opened up the door to more involvement for his character. He is a teenager that has had more than his fair share of issues. He is struggling to find his identity, and I really think his momentary lapse of judgement regarding magic was just a knee jerk reaction from having been to the UW and back, watching as his adoptive Mom and her sister struggle to cope with losing true loves because of Magic, plus all of the baggage he has with his own magical experiences. It's no surprise that, under that kind of stress, he would (as a teenager) make a rash decision regarding magic. and unfortunately, he's got enough background to pull off what he did, with a little help from his gf.

      But the episode also reminded us of another facet of Henry, and that is that he has the heart of the truest believer. That trait, combined with his abilities as the Author, could pay dividends in future stories (particularly if the series does go the route of unfinished/untold tales, which would be right in his wheelhouse for finishing and telling)

      Moving on to other aspects of the episode. If someone had told me at the beginning of the season that Zelena, Killian, and the Charmings would be stuck somewhere and work together to get out of the mess, I probably would have laughed and asked for a sip of whatever they were imbibing. However, that was the exact dynamic we got with the Land of Untold Stories (LUS) plotline. And I feel that they did a good job pulling that off. there was enough angst and snark (particularly between Killian and Zelena) to remind us that they are still struggling with their new roles, but enough teamwork to show that they are willing to put aside past differences and work toward a common goal. And it was also nice to see Snow being more of her BA self (even if Ginny is pregnant), and David actually stepping up to take the lead. It was not a lot of development for these characters, but it was enough.

      The new characters introduced this week (and carrying forward into Season 6) were nicely done. We don't have the flashback on them yet, but it was not needed since Jeckyll and Hyde are more known than some of the other tales. the writers have added very little to the story (so far), with the one twist being that they are now 2 distinct individuals. And showing that twist occurring in present day was well done. I will say that I am not getting the strong Villain vibe from Hyde. Yes, he is dark, but he does seem to have some compassion.  and his goal (at least for now) being to find a place where the untold tales could be told does not feel sinister (though that opinion may change once we know more about these untold tales). Honestly, I feel that both J & H could be more Anti-heros, rather than Hero and Villain.

      Also, we already know that Hyde and Rumple have a past. So I am curious about what happened in that past that angered Hyde. (though I guess we should not be too surprised. Rumple has that effect on alot of people).

      The other new character introduced is more of an enigma, and has piqued my curiousity.  Who is Pool (or is it Puhl, or some other spelling? I'm not sure)? He actually seemed to run the asylum (or whatever that place was), except when Hyde was in control. I'm confident that he has a good story waiting to be told.

      Finally, a stray thought. I loved that Violet's father, Sir Morgan, was in fact the Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court. first, is allows a strong and valid reason for Violet to stay behind rather than returning the the EF. and second, it is yet another non-fairy tale literary tie to the show. I would not mind at all seeing some of Mark Twain's other characters make cameos.

      I'm sure there are other thoughts as well, but this wall of words is already long enough.

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    • Poole is simply a character in the Jekyll and Hyde story.

      I think Hyde is cool, but he definitely shouldn't get more than a few episodes, same with the EQ figment. I mean, we see the lesson to learn a mile away and I frankly don't want to sit through 11 more episodes for them to realize they you have to accept your darkness as a part of yourself. Hyde, expertly played, can't really hold a significant role I think. He's magically resilient, probably unkillable, but slap that cuff on him, trap him, and toss him down a portal because he's not so much of a threat in that way. Rumple seems to be set up already as the mega villain of that season. And he's probably going to set up the end of the next arc....

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    • Onceuponatimeuser97 wrote:
      ChocolatEyes613 wrote:
      Onceuponatimeuser97 wrote:
      Another problem is Sir Morgan being a LWM character. So a LWM character managed to somehow get to Camelot (which is within FTL) yet Rumplestiltskin couldn't find his way to the LWM from FTL and took him like what 100 years? 200? and also by using a curse. Hopefully Violet is lying and this will all be resolved next season, or else, this is a serious plot issue.
      Violet is not lying about her father, as A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court is a well-known novel by Mark Twain.
      I know, but that is a novel with the character. It is something like Alice in Wonderland or 101 Dalmations or the Wizard of Oz (Dorothy). The stories are in our world but the characters are not. But I don't really mind him being from the LWM, it is just that Rumplestiltskin couldn't find his way to the LWM from FTL and took him like what 100 years? 200? and also by using a curse but Sir Morgan found a way to go FROM the LWM TO Camelot. It's kinda a plot issue and kinda messes the whole idea of the show which involved the curse. 

      Ok, there are several threads that discuss the issues with why Rumple took so long to find a way to the LWM. I won't delve to much into that side of the argument.

      But I think it's easy to imagine that Hank Morgan either stumbled across something he didn't understand that transported him to Camelot, or else he was SENT there by one of the few magic using persons in the LWM for reasons yet unknown. But whatever the case, he probably was 'given' a one way ticket to Camelot something like 15 (plus 28 for the curse) years ago. He may have spent the first couple of years enjoying the change, and after Violet was born, may have felt that raising a child in Camelot was better than raising one in our world and decided to not find a return ticket right away. (Let's face it, Sir Morgan probably remembers the Cuban Missle Crisis, Vietnam from the world he grew up in, not to mention what we know of history prior. I wouldn't blame him for raising a dauther in a simpler age).

      I actually don't see a plot issue on this one.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Poole is simply a character in the Jekyll and Hyde story.

      Thanks. I guess I need to go back and re-read the strange case of Dr Jeckyll and Mr Hyde.

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    • When we discovered who the warden was I thought to myself "They really belong in the Land Without Color not Victoiran England" then when they showed the ziploans and stuff I thought to myself "This is so not Alice's world" I guess this world has people from many different worlds living there, if that's so Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde needs to be from the Land Without Color and maybe even have a history with Dr. Frankenstein maybe we has his apprentice or something

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Poole is simply a character in the Jekyll and Hyde story.
      Thanks. I guess I need to go back and re-read the strange case of Dr Jeckyll and Mr Hyde.

      Or you can just use Wikipedia, lol:

      Poole is Jekyll's butler who has lived with him for many years, upon noticing the reclusiveness and changes of his master, goes to Utterson with the fear that his master has been murdered and his murderer, Mr Hyde, is residing in the chambers. Poole serves Jekyll faithfully, and attempts to do a good job and be loyal to his master. Yet events finally drive him into joining forces with Utterson to find the truth.

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    • Anubis16 wrote:
      When we discovered who the warden was I thought to myself "They really belong in the Land Without Color not Victoiran England" then when they showed the ziploans and stuff I thought to myself "This is so not Alice's world" I guess this world has people from many different worlds living there, if that's so Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde needs to be from the Land Without Color and maybe even have a history with Dr. Frankenstein maybe we has his apprentice or something

      It is obvious that the inhabitants of the LUS do not originate from there, given the diversity of people (and stories) available.

      and I agree that J & H (and Poole) probably originate from the LWC. If they can get David Anders for an episode (and if our assumption of the origination of J & H is correct), it would be fun to see a scene and find out what relationship (if any) there is between Victor and Henry Jeckyll. (They have not used Jeckyll's first name on the show, so I hope they stick with the source material on that).

      But a connection would not be necessary, unless it bears on the plot of the episode.

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    • IN LOVE WITH THAT FINALE. The best - for me - right after "Land Without Magic".

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    • Good God, WHAT A FINALE!

      Firstly, could the writers have hinted at this way back? We really need another doctor in this town" said Regina when Whale was making fun of Zelena in 5A. If so, smart. 

      I'm 100% sure we'll now get Esmeralda, Aladdin, Gulliver and many more. Though I wouldn't want Don Quixote...maybe as a one-episode-only like Hercules. 

      When Regina and Emma realize that LWM now has magic... chills! 

      What a wonderful place the Land of Untold Stories is, really. 

      Regina's monologue in Neal's apartment was great and Lana was incredible.

      Henry and Violet were a nice lead, it was a pleasant change.

      Hook, Snow, Charming and Zelena. What a unique combination. Zelena had some great lines once again well of course, do you have some duct tape? and I wouldn't mind running.

      Sam Witwer was outstanding as Hyde. Hank Harris as Jeckyll too but Sam was so good and scary.  

      Rumple was so good. Love driven, determined and ruthless. Amazing. Was Belle REALLY the cause of all this? Was Belle REALLY the driving point behind this and she wasn't even there? Ahaha I find it a bit hilarious. (I miss Emilie though). 

      AND the CGI was okay. The Evil Queen turning to dust looked incredible.I like that she didn't just drop dead. It goes to say she's not really there, she's more like, a living, breathing, vision. I certainly hope we don't see much of her in Season 6 because, between us, it is a bit ridiculous too (for me).  

      Soundtrack was fantastic. 

      And last but not least, I loved the little references to older things like Henry being the truest believer, to the blood on the map to every little thing that reminded us of older seasons. 

      BUT

      What in the name of God was that CGI when Jeckyll became Hyde? It was SO bad, why didn't they just repeat the effect from when Neal was inside Rumple? That one was nice, effective, disturbing, everything. This one looked awful. 

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    • In the beginning of the 2h finale it shows Rumple saying "to" Belle "since your dad's kiss didn't wake you blah blah I'm gonna use crazy magic to wake you up" (I don't remember the exact quote, sorry lol) ANYWAY - did they MAKE the scene where her dad kisses her and she doesn't wake up??? Or was it in a previous episode that I blacked out through?

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    • Rakkked wrote: (...) did they MAKE the scene where her dad kisses her and she doesn't wake up??? Or was it in a previous episode that I blacked out through?

      47
      00:02:53,219 --> 00:02:57,329
      Belle, since your father
      refused to wake you,

      48
      00:02:57,570 --> 00:03:00,055
      I'm gonna have to find
      another way, and I will.

      Is this is the answer for your question?

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    • No that is what prompted me to ASK the question! After I heard him say that I was like k when did they show that happening?!?! I rewound the show to see if I missed the beginning where that scene was - I didn't miss the beginning and they didn't show that scene. They also didn't show it in the episode before. Sooo I'm assuming they didn't actually make that scene???

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    • in 5x21, Rumple approached Moe, and Moe told rumple to go to the UW. (Ok, maybe he didn't say exactly that, but the sentiment was there).

      Ok, seriously, when Rumple approached Moe about waking Belle, Moe told Rumple that Belle was better off in a sleeping curse than being awake and with Rumple, and that so long as Rumple existed, he was not going to wake his daughter. When rumple threatened Moe with the Cane of Pain, Moe responded that he'd rather die that wake Belle to be with Rumple.

      That is where Rumple comes up with saying Moe refused to wake Belle.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      in 5x21, Rumple approached Moe, and Moe told rumple to go to the UW. (Ok, maybe he didn't say exactly that, but the sentiment was there).

      Ok, seriously, when Rumple approached Moe about waking Belle, Moe told Rumple that Belle was better off in a sleeping curse than being awake and with Rumple, and that so long as Rumple existed, he was not going to wake his daughter. When rumple threatened Moe with the Cane of Pain, Moe responded that he'd rather die that wake Belle to be with Rumple.

      That is where Rumple comes up with saying Moe refused to wake Belle.

      OMG!! Do this DID happen!!! THANK YOU!!

      (p.s lol @ cane of pain)

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    • am i the only one who is quite excited to see the three musketeers and some arabian-alike citizens in LOUS ? we may get alibaba and 40 thieves there....

      really love the performance of J&H! really something new and refreshing

      and about both of them have colours...i thought when dr frankenstein went to EF which is the land with color he was also colored? this mean these boys can be from LWM 

      Hope to see more of sir morgan and how he get to camelot. may be merlin wants someone to watch arthur???

      been following our forum for a while but this is my first post. hi everyone!

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    • I saw people on instagram shipping Regina and Hyde lol

      Also, I wonder if Regina will start using light magic. I mean, she did got separated from her dark self.

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    • D.Prince wrote:
      I saw people on instagram shipping Regina and Hyde lol

      Also, I wonder if Regina will start using light magic. I mean, she did got separated from her dark self.

      Technically, Regina currently wields light magic. Now, if you mean the light elemental magic that Emma always uses.....probably not. Yeah, Emma's white-colored magic is as light as Merlin's purple and Regina's purple as far as I know.

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    • D.Prince wrote:
      I saw people on instagram shipping Regina and Hyde lol


      Hydgina? lol


      Maybe Hyde has a lion tatoo

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      D.Prince wrote:
      I saw people on instagram shipping Regina and Hyde lol

      Also, I wonder if Regina will start using light magic. I mean, she did got separated from her dark self.

      Technically, Regina currently wields light magic. Now, if you mean the light elemental magic that Emma always uses.....probably not. Yeah, Emma's white-colored magic is as light as Merlin's purple and Regina's purple as far as I know.

      Yes, that's what I meant. Emma's elemental light magic, otherwise I can't tell when someone is using light magic unless I know it's a hero from default like Merlin who for some reason had purple and dark blue magic. All this time I thought Regina was using her dark magic for "good" stuff. 

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      D.Prince wrote:
      I saw people on instagram shipping Regina and Hyde lol

      Hydgina? lol


      Maybe Hyde has a lion tatoo

      Queenhyde? I don't know. Ship names is not my thing.


      Maybe you get a new soulmate each time the previous one dies. That way they can give Regina a new man.

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    • D.Prince wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      D.Prince wrote:
      I saw people on instagram shipping Regina and Hyde lol

      Also, I wonder if Regina will start using light magic. I mean, she did got separated from her dark self.

      Technically, Regina currently wields light magic. Now, if you mean the light elemental magic that Emma always uses.....probably not. Yeah, Emma's white-colored magic is as light as Merlin's purple and Regina's purple as far as I know.
      Yes, that's what I meant. Emma's elemental light magic, otherwise I can't tell when someone is using light magic unless I know it's a hero from default like Merlin who for some reason had purple and dark blue magic. All this time I thought Regina was using her dark magic for "good" stuff. 

      Yep, the writers haven't figured out which is which yet XD They have problem telling magic as an amoral force and the light/darkness within oneself.

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    • Something i just thought of. Marian/Zelena's freezing curse was broken by crossing the town line because no magic = no curse. How come Rumple didn't think of just crossing the town line (with some anti-transformation potion and no crystal) with Belle (not inside a box) to break the sleeping curse?

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    • Toma Cre wrote:
      Something i just thought of. Marian/Zelena's freezing curse was broken by crossing the town line because no magic = no curse. How come Rumple didn't think of just crossing the town line (with some anti-transformation potion and no crystal) with Belle (not inside a box) to break the sleeping curse?

      I guess that it's different type of curses. Henry was under a sleeping curse too in the land without magic and onlt ture love's kiss could wake him up. If she'll cross the town line she'll still be asleep and because the ice was magic crossing the town line cured it 

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    • -So..... does Lana get two paychecks now?

      -Is it bad that I just think Jeckyll is adorable?

      -I loved the Captain Snowing Zelena adventure.

      -The Land of Untold Stories looks great.

      -David and Killian hugged and that is really all that matters right now.

      -I have mixed feelings on the Emma and Killian kiss. I loved it as a kiss, thought it was beautiful. I' really happy that Emma is now in a place where she can freely admit her feelings without Darkness/death looming. The last time she was in a place like that, she was 17 and with Neal and she got so hurt afterwards, so it's a great moment for her. Having said that.... that's it? We watched them in pain for 21 episodes, I feel like we could have at least seen them move into their new house. Hopefully they'll be moving/have moved in by season 6.

      -I loathed the Regina storyline. The Evil Queen is not a separate entity. It's Regina. The show needs to stop acting like it wasn't her and acting like "a noble battle is raging inside Regina." She's not cursed! She isn't the Dark One, where you have a literal separate entity talking to you the whole time, she chose to do all that. She (finally) got self aware and admitted she chose to do all that, which was good, but then it went on being treated like she was cursed or something! Stop!

      -Regina, honey, if you have to remove the bad parts of yourself and kill it/you/her in order to make yourself stop doing bad things, well......

      -I also hated Emma being Regina's punching bag. First was "I want to rip your boyfriend's throat out" after she'd lost him three times (and this was an indirect threat, given that Regina had just said 'I'm constantly at war with my instincts') then there was "You don't know how I feel" when yes she very much does, Regina, she was the freakign Dark One. It's not her fault that she's a geniunely better person than you are. Then Henry got on Emma's case for daring to not believe in Regina.

      -Also the fact that Regina gave the 'My life is so full of paiiiin and I'm always SUFFERIIIIIIIIIIIING' to Emma and Snow, her two biggest victims, is painful.

      -So Regina basically removed the Evil Queen from herself in order to avoid dealing with consequences. Wow okay.

      -So, they're just separating Roland from his sister and leaving said sister in the custody of the woman who raped his father and murdered his mother? 

      -I'm sorry but Henry's speech was embarrassing. I mean yes, magic and believing yipeee but come on. If a 15 year old jumped on a statue and started yelling 'BELIEVE IN MAGIC' would you seriously react like that (I did like the scene and all but I was laughing the whole way through).

      -So Rumple can't give the poor toll man his $15 but can tip the hotel guy $100? What Rumple?

      Sorry but I disliked the finale.

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    • I think the Dragon called it a noble battle, not because it's Regina, but anyone who faces their own natural dark intentions have a battle taking place. And the one she was compared to was Rumpe who clearly wasn't fighting his dark side.

      It's also called character growth, not sure if you heard. Regina was blaming someone else as always (the EQ) and she started taking responsibility before Snow and Emma convinced her to do drugs---I mean use the serum. It was Snow egging her on to kill the EQ, not her own idea.

      I also think many blow Regina's 'I'm suffering speech" out of proportion. Or at least those that seem to be. Regina's simply saying that trying to be good has a lot of suffering and she's suffering. She's not saying Snow and Emma are not suffering. See the lack of logic.

      "Regina saying she's suffering != She's saying Snow and Emma aren't. That's just conjecture.

      Next, Rolan is going with the man who practically raised him and Baby Hood is staying with her mom. What's wrong with that? Or do you rather Roland stay with the woman that did all those vile things? You can't just take Baby Hood from Zelena because she has a right to her. Plus, Zelena said they'll visit often.

      I know, I can't change anyone's mind, but you can't really loathe Regina's action but ignore that half the heroes agree or force the idea upon her. If you hate that Regina sepearated herself, then you'd have to also blame Emma and Snow who gave her the idea and supported it. XD

      Oh, and you pretty much said why Emma is quite pasisve to Regina. It's because Emma a genuinely better person, right?

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      I think the Dragon called it a noble battle, not because it's Regina, but anyone who faces their own natural dark intentions have a battle taking place. And the one she was compared to was Rumpe who clearly wasn't fighting his dark side.

      It's also called character growth, not sure if you heard. Regina was blaming someone else as always (the EQ) and she started taking responsibility before Snow and Emma convinced her to do drugs---I mean use the serum. It was Snow egging her on to kill the EQ, not her own idea.

      I also think many blow Regina's 'I'm suffering speech" out of proportion. Or at least those that seem to be. Regina's simply saying that trying to be good has a lot of suffering and she's suffering. She's not saying Snow and Emma are not suffering. See the lack of logic.

      "Regina saying she's suffering != She's saying Snow and Emma aren't. That's just conjecture.

      Next, Rolan is going with the man who practically raised him and Baby Hood is staying with her mom. What's wrong with that? Or do you rather Roland stay with the woman that did all those vile things? You can't just take Baby Hood from Zelena because she has a right to her. Plus, Zelena said they'll visit often.

      I know, I can't change anyone's mind, but you can't really loathe Regina's action but ignore that half the heroes agree or force the idea upon her. If you hate that Regina sepearated herself, then you'd have to also blame Emma and Snow who gave her the idea and supported it. XD

      Oh, and you pretty much said why Emma is quite pasisve to Regina. It's because Emma a genuinely better person, right?

      About Roland:In a perfect world, I'd like him and Robin Jr to either Snow and David or Emma and Killian. However, since that would never happen, I'd like Robin Jr to go back to Sherwood Forest with Roland and Zelena to visit often. 

      By Emma's a better person, I admit I got a bit carried away, I mean that Regina was basically saying that "You don't understand how hard it is to fight darkness because you won." But she does understand how hard it is, even though she was better at resisting it than she was. It's like an addict saying to an ex-addict 'You don't understand how hard it is!' Regina basically said "Yeah shut up your struggles don't match mine."

      With regard to Snow and Emma, I simply call that the Regina Effect, where Regina does something bad and everyone just goes along with it ex. in s4 when she took Belle's heart and no one seemed to care. Also, they need someone other than Regina to blame for when this goes wrong.

      My whole problem with the separating the Evil Queen from Regina is that it was the equivaent of a 'Get Out Of Jail (or in this case, consequences) Free' card. Regina said herself 'The EQ's baggage, her karma will still be there.' I have a problem with Snow, the woman Regina disowned, abused and terrorised and hurt more than anyone else and Emma, the woman who had her childhood ripped away by Regina, her son abused, was nearly killed and is still treated like crap by Regina simply going "Oh well we can't have you facing consequences for your past mistakes!'

      I'm sorry but I don't buy this as a redemption. Redemption isn't magically taking away all your bad qualities so you never have to deal with any consequences. It's working to be a better person by putting in effort eg Killian, Arthur, Ingrid.

      And then there was the victim blaming by Snow "I helped bring her into this world." No, Snow you did NOT. You were an innocent child who did nothing wrong.

      My other problem is basically, when did Emma ever lash out at Regina for making her an orphan? Or Snow for making her an orphan? Or the people of Storybrooke? Early season 3 was the last time and Regina flipped it to blame Snow for ruining her life. But of course Regina "No One Knows How Bad I Have It" Mills would say 'Oh I have to accept a life of suffering'. When Killian died (for the third time) we didn't have a scene where Emma sits and complains how nothing ever works out for her but she had to sit and listen to Regina complaining?

      Finally-Regina straight up said she hates doing the right thing because it never works out for her. What in the actual hell?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:

      I also think many blow Regina's 'I'm suffering speech" out of proportion. Or at least those that seem to be. Regina's simply saying that trying to be good has a lot of suffering and she's suffering. She's not saying Snow and Emma are not suffering. See the lack of logic.

      Was it not Lana who stated, that Regina believes that it is karma? That all her suffering, is due to her making others suffer. 

      Plus, I am sure, that Regina partially blames herself for Robin Hood's death. He died protecting her from Hades. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:About Roland:In a perfect world, I'd like him and Robin Jr to either Snow and David or Emma and Killian. However, since that would never happen, I'd like Robin Jr to go back to Sherwood Forest with Roland and Zelena to visit often. 

      Why would Roland and Robin ever go to those people? Little John practically raised Roland and that would be beyond irrationality to give them to people who never raised kids.

      By Emma's a better person, I admit I got a bit carried away, I mean that Regina was basically saying that "You don't understand how hard it is to fight darkness because you won." But she does understand how hard it is, even though she was better at resisting it than she was. It's like an addict saying to an ex-addict 'You don't understand how hard it is!' Regina basically said "Yeah shut up your struggles don't match mine."

      Well, I think Regina means that Emma while being Dark One was fairly okay and at the precipice of the drop, while Regina was consumed, mass-murdering etc. I think I'd agree that Emma's not like a massmurdering tyrant, lol.

      With regard to Snow and Emma, I simply call that the Regina Effect, where Regina does something bad and everyone just goes along with it ex. in s4 when she took Belle's heart and no one seemed to care. Also, they need someone other than Regina to blame for when this goes wrong.

      Hook doesn't really do much and Rumple is always the one to blame even when he's right. So, I would say that them catering to Regina would be just as bad as them treating Rumple the way they treat him.

      My whole problem with the separating the Evil Queen from Regina is that it was the equivaent of a 'Get Out Of Jail (or in this case, consequences) Free' card. Regina said herself 'The EQ's baggage, her karma will still be there.' I have a problem with Snow, the woman Regina disowned, abused and terrorised and hurt more than anyone else and Emma, the woman who had her childhood ripped away by Regina, her son abused, was nearly killed and is still treated like crap by Regina simply going "Oh well we can't have you facing consequences for your past mistakes!'

      Regina has a projection issue...which I think we all know. But Regina was going from EQ this and that to saying I. I think she was growing, but then Snow and co come choose to do the bad thing and separate them. Snow loves Regina, despite their past. Emma likely doesn't blame someone else and just accepts life the way it is. If all the characters were lashing out in vengenance, it would be a very boring show because they'd all be the same character. Plus, Snow is relatively forgiving and I can believe that.

      I'm sorry but I don't buy this as a redemption. Redemption isn't magically taking away all your bad qualities so you never have to deal with any consequences. It's working to be a better person by putting in effort eg Killian, Arthur, Ingrid.

      But that's the lesson for next season, lol. It'll be about leanring that you can't just separate yourself to deal with your problems. And Hook's was borderline contingent on Emma or do we ignore Dark Hook? Arthur hasn't redeemed himself at all. He sees that he was bad, but he didn't do anything besides that. Ingrid didn't really redeem herself. She had a self-relialization moment and didn't really have much to redeem besides manipulating Elsa, Anna and Emma.

      And then there was the victim blaming by Snow "I helped bring her into this world." No, Snow you did NOT. You were an innocent child who did nothing wrong.

      Snow always blames herself. That's simply her character. If you don't like it, cool, but she's been this way since season 2.

      My other problem is basically, when did Emma ever lash out at Regina for making her an orphan? Or Snow for making her an orphan? Or the people of Storybrooke? Early season 3 was the last time and Regina flipped it to blame Snow for ruining her life. But of course Regina "No One Knows How Bad I Have It" Mills would say 'Oh I have to accept a life of suffering'. When Killian died (for the third time) we didn't have a scene where Emma sits and complains how nothing ever works out for her but she had to sit and listen to Regina complaining?

      If you say that Regina complains to much, why have everyone on the show do the exact same? I'm sure you like Emma, Snow, probably Hook, because they don't complain, lol. These are just different characters and I enjoy them for those very reasons.

      Finally-Regina straight up said she hates doing the right thing because it never works out for her. What in the actual hell?

      Well, I would understand Regina and by extension Rumple. Doing things the easy way is......easy. Regina and Rumple went in thinking that changing themselves would lead to happiness. But what they realize is that you suffer if you're a hero and you suffer if you are a villain. Rumple chooses to be a villain because honestly, nothing ever works out for him, and the heroes seem borderline stupid and forgiving. All the three villians fall in the trap of "redumption" that the show created. They all were good for "reasons" and when those reasons aren't there or good enough, they backslide. They all seem to do it for the prizes they can win and when they don't win, is it really worth the effort?

      Yeah, yeah the show "tells, doesn't show" the opposite as if they are all truly redeemed and stuff.



        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:
      By Emma's a better person, I admit I got a bit carried away, I mean that Regina was basically saying that "You don't understand how hard it is to fight darkness because you won." But she does understand how hard it is, even though she was better at resisting it than she was. It's like an addict saying to an ex-addict 'You don't understand how hard it is!' Regina basically said "Yeah shut up your struggles don't match mine."

      Emma may have been better at resisting the darkness but she also had tons more help from family (Snow, David, Henry), friends (Regina, Belle, the dwarves) and her true love, Hook. She also had a magical cleansing when she was a baby (not sure if that played a factor). Regina only really had her father who had a pretty weak personality, maybe if she had someone like David at least, things would have turned out differently. Besides, her point was that Emma never truly fell into the darkness so she was never really an "addict" just pretty close to one.


      Aine1989 wrote:
      My whole problem with the separating the Evil Queen from Regina is that it was the equivaent of a 'Get Out Of Jail (or in this case, consequences) Free' card. Regina said herself 'The EQ's baggage, her karma will still be there.'

      What I got from Regina wanting to be free of the Evil Queen is that her future actions will no longer be affected by her dark side (especially when she is in pain and wanting to lash out) and not that she will be magically absolved of her past misdeeds and no longer need to work for her redemption. Did she in fact say anything to that effect after EQ was separated from her? Did Snow say anything like that either? (Edited to add: The episode ended only a few minutes after EQ was seemingly killed, so we will have to wait till Season 6 to see exactly what Regina means by being "free" of EQ).


      Aine1989 wrote:
      I'm sorry but I don't buy this as a redemption. Redemption isn't magically taking away all your bad qualities so you never have to deal with any consequences. It's working to be a better person by putting in effort eg Killian, Arthur, Ingrid.

      You realise that Killian is the one who said to Emma "all sins can be forgiven when someone loves you", thereby seemingly absolving himself of all his past sins of murder (the rings he wore as a reminder). Talk about not accepting personal responsibility... And Hook is in fact the one who actually got a get out of jail free card given to him by a god who rewarded him for rather minimal contributions towards defeating Hades. I mean, how come Hercules and Megara didn't get a second chance at life?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      I think the Dragon called it a noble battle, not because it's Regina, but anyone who faces their own natural dark intentions have a battle taking place. And the one she was compared to was Rumpe who clearly wasn't fighting his dark side.

      It's also called character growth, not sure if you heard. Regina was blaming someone else as always (the EQ) and she started taking responsibility before Snow and Emma convinced her to do drugs---I mean use the serum. It was Snow egging her on to kill the EQ, not her own idea.

      I also think many blow Regina's 'I'm suffering speech" out of proportion. Or at least those that seem to be. Regina's simply saying that trying to be good has a lot of suffering and she's suffering. She's not saying Snow and Emma are not suffering. See the lack of logic.

      "Regina saying she's suffering != She's saying Snow and Emma aren't. That's just conjecture.

      Next, Rolan is going with the man who practically raised him and Baby Hood is staying with her mom. What's wrong with that? Or do you rather Roland stay with the woman that did all those vile things? You can't just take Baby Hood from Zelena because she has a right to her. Plus, Zelena said they'll visit often.

      I know, I can't change anyone's mind, but you can't really loathe Regina's action but ignore that half the heroes agree or force the idea upon her. If you hate that Regina sepearated herself, then you'd have to also blame Emma and Snow who gave her the idea and supported it. XD

      Oh, and you pretty much said why Emma is quite pasisve to Regina. It's because Emma a genuinely better person, right?

      About Roland:In a perfect world, I'd like him and Robin Jr to either Snow and David or Emma and Killian. However, since that would never happen, I'd like Robin Jr to go back to Sherwood Forest with Roland and Zelena to visit often. 

      By Emma's a better person, I admit I got a bit carried away, I mean that Regina was basically saying that "You don't understand how hard it is to fight darkness because you won." But she does understand how hard it is, even though she was better at resisting it than she was. It's like an addict saying to an ex-addict 'You don't understand how hard it is!' Regina basically said "Yeah shut up your struggles don't match mine."

      With regard to Snow and Emma, I simply call that the Regina Effect, where Regina does something bad and everyone just goes along with it ex. in s4 when she took Belle's heart and no one seemed to care. Also, they need someone other than Regina to blame for when this goes wrong.

      My whole problem with the separating the Evil Queen from Regina is that it was the equivaent of a 'Get Out Of Jail (or in this case, consequences) Free' card. Regina said herself 'The EQ's baggage, her karma will still be there.' I have a problem with Snow, the woman Regina disowned, abused and terrorised and hurt more than anyone else and Emma, the woman who had her childhood ripped away by Regina, her son abused, was nearly killed and is still treated like crap by Regina simply going "Oh well we can't have you facing consequences for your past mistakes!'

      I'm sorry but I don't buy this as a redemption. Redemption isn't magically taking away all your bad qualities so you never have to deal with any consequences. It's working to be a better person by putting in effort eg Killian, Arthur, Ingrid.

      And then there was the victim blaming by Snow "I helped bring her into this world." No, Snow you did NOT. You were an innocent child who did nothing wrong.

      My other problem is basically, when did Emma ever lash out at Regina for making her an orphan? Or Snow for making her an orphan? Or the people of Storybrooke? Early season 3 was the last time and Regina flipped it to blame Snow for ruining her life. But of course Regina "No One Knows How Bad I Have It" Mills would say 'Oh I have to accept a life of suffering'. When Killian died (for the third time) we didn't have a scene where Emma sits and complains how nothing ever works out for her but she had to sit and listen to Regina complaining?

      Finally-Regina straight up said she hates doing the right thing because it never works out for her. What in the actual hell?

      About Regina; refusing, not accepting no matter what...Is it just me who thinks that they are CS symptoms lol

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Toma Cre wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      By Emma's a better person, I admit I got a bit carried away, I mean that Regina was basically saying that "You don't understand how hard it is to fight darkness because you won." But she does understand how hard it is, even though she was better at resisting it than she was. It's like an addict saying to an ex-addict 'You don't understand how hard it is!' Regina basically said "Yeah shut up your struggles don't match mine."
      Emma may have been better at resisting the darkness but she also had tons more help from family (Snow, David, Henry), friends (Regina, Belle, the dwarves) and her true love, Hook. She also had a magical cleansing when she was a baby (not sure if that played a factor). Regina only really had her father who had a pretty weak personality, maybe if she had someone like David at least, things would have turned out differently. Besides, her point was that Emma never truly fell into the darkness so she was never really an "addict" just pretty close to one.



      Aine1989 wrote:
      My whole problem with the separating the Evil Queen from Regina is that it was the equivaent of a 'Get Out Of Jail (or in this case, consequences) Free' card. Regina said herself 'The EQ's baggage, her karma will still be there.'
      What I got from Regina wanting to be free of the Evil Queen is that her future actions will no longer be affected by her dark side (especially when she is in pain and wanting to lash out) and not that she will be magically absolved of her past misdeeds and no longer need to work for her redemption. Did she in fact say anything to that effect after EQ was separated from her? Did Snow say anything like that either? (Edited to add: The episode ended only a few minutes after EQ was seemingly killed, so we will have to wait till Season 6 to see exactly what Regina means by being "free" of EQ).



      Aine1989 wrote:
      I'm sorry but I don't buy this as a redemption. Redemption isn't magically taking away all your bad qualities so you never have to deal with any consequences. It's working to be a better person by putting in effort eg Killian, Arthur, Ingrid.
      You realise that Killian is the one who said to Emma "all sins can be forgiven when someone loves you", thereby seemingly absolving himself of all his past sins of murder (the rings he wore as a reminder). Talk about not accepting personal responsibility... And Hook is in fact the one who actually got a get out of jail free card given to him by a god who rewarded him for rather minimal contributions towards defeating Hades. I mean, how come Hercules and Megara didn't get a second chance at life?

      1. For 28 years Emma had no one. Yet she didn't turn into a mass murderer!

      2. "Her karma will still be there." She said this. She wants to be free of consequences. If she wanted to be a better person she could, oh I don't know, try to be a better person?

      3. You realise that Killian had to work in order to ge that love in the first place. He had to start changing before anyone gave him the time of day!  He wears the rins as a reminder to be better, to be the person he is now. Also, what? When has Killian acted like Killian and Hook were two different people, or blamed his darkness on others? NEVER! He was put the blame on himself, every time. He didn't get a 'GOOJF'  card-he got a reward for getting the pages that told them how to defear Hades. Without them, they never would have been able to defeat Hades in the first place (and he rsiked his own soul and saved Arthur). Unlike Regina, he had to work to prove himself. So it wasn't "minimal" it was the whole freaking reason they defeated Hades. Herc and Meg didn't help defeat Hades and are currently having fun in Paradise.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • 1. For 28 years Emma had no one. Yet she didn't turn into a mass murderer!

      2. "Her karma will still be there." She said this. She wants to be free of consequences. If she wanted to be a better person she could, oh I don't know, try to be a better person?

      3. You realise that Killian had to work in order to ge that love in the first place. He had to start changing before anyone gave him the time of day!  He wears the rins as a reminder to be better, to be the person he is now. Also, what? When has Killian acted like Killian and Hook were two different people, or blamed his darkness on others? NEVER! He was put the blame on himself, every time. He didn't get a 'GOOJF'  card-he got a reward for getting the pages that told them how to defear Hades. Without them, they never would have been able to defeat Hades in the first place (and he rsiked his own soul and saved Arthur). Unlike Regina, he had to work to prove himself. So it wasn't "minimal" it was the whole freaking reason they defeated Hades. Herc and Meg didn't help defeat Hades and are currently having fun in Paradise.

      Need I remind you that Hook was being weak and tried to send his love(!)'s family to Hell just because he didn't overcome his darkness? 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:About Roland:In a perfect world, I'd like him and Robin Jr to either Snow and David or Emma and Killian. However, since that would never happen, I'd like Robin Jr to go back to Sherwood Forest with Roland and Zelena to visit often. 

      Why would Roland and Robin ever go to those people? Little John practically raised Roland and that would be beyond irrationality to give them to people who never raised kids.

      By Emma's a better person, I admit I got a bit carried away, I mean that Regina was basically saying that "You don't understand how hard it is to fight darkness because you won." But she does understand how hard it is, even though she was better at resisting it than she was. It's like an addict saying to an ex-addict 'You don't understand how hard it is!' Regina basically said "Yeah shut up your struggles don't match mine."

      Well, I think Regina means that Emma while being Dark One was fairly okay and at the precipice of the drop, while Regina was consumed, mass-murdering etc. I think I'd agree that Emma's not like a massmurdering tyrant, lol.

      With regard to Snow and Emma, I simply call that the Regina Effect, where Regina does something bad and everyone just goes along with it ex. in s4 when she took Belle's heart and no one seemed to care. Also, they need someone other than Regina to blame for when this goes wrong.

      Hook doesn't really do much and Rumple is always the one to blame even when he's right. So, I would say that them catering to Regina would be just as bad as them treating Rumple the way they treat him.

      My whole problem with the separating the Evil Queen from Regina is that it was the equivaent of a 'Get Out Of Jail (or in this case, consequences) Free' card. Regina said herself 'The EQ's baggage, her karma will still be there.' I have a problem with Snow, the woman Regina disowned, abused and terrorised and hurt more than anyone else and Emma, the woman who had her childhood ripped away by Regina, her son abused, was nearly killed and is still treated like crap by Regina simply going "Oh well we can't have you facing consequences for your past mistakes!'

      Regina has a projection issue...which I think we all know. But Regina was going from EQ this and that to saying I. I think she was growing, but then Snow and co come choose to do the bad thing and separate them. Snow loves Regina, despite their past. Emma likely doesn't blame someone else and just accepts life the way it is. If all the characters were lashing out in vengenance, it would be a very boring show because they'd all be the same character. Plus, Snow is relatively forgiving and I can believe that.

      I'm sorry but I don't buy this as a redemption. Redemption isn't magically taking away all your bad qualities so you never have to deal with any consequences. It's working to be a better person by putting in effort eg Killian, Arthur, Ingrid.

      But that's the lesson for next season, lol. It'll be about leanring that you can't just separate yourself to deal with your problems. And Hook's was borderline contingent on Emma or do we ignore Dark Hook? Arthur hasn't redeemed himself at all. He sees that he was bad, but he didn't do anything besides that. Ingrid didn't really redeem herself. She had a self-relialization moment and didn't really have much to redeem besides manipulating Elsa, Anna and Emma.

      And then there was the victim blaming by Snow "I helped bring her into this world." No, Snow you did NOT. You were an innocent child who did nothing wrong.

      Snow always blames herself. That's simply her character. If you don't like it, cool, but she's been this way since season 2.

      My other problem is basically, when did Emma ever lash out at Regina for making her an orphan? Or Snow for making her an orphan? Or the people of Storybrooke? Early season 3 was the last time and Regina flipped it to blame Snow for ruining her life. But of course Regina "No One Knows How Bad I Have It" Mills would say 'Oh I have to accept a life of suffering'. When Killian died (for the third time) we didn't have a scene where Emma sits and complains how nothing ever works out for her but she had to sit and listen to Regina complaining?

      If you say that Regina complains to much, why have everyone on the show do the exact same? I'm sure you like Emma, Snow, probably Hook, because they don't complain, lol. These are just different characters and I enjoy them for those very reasons.

      Finally-Regina straight up said she hates doing the right thing because it never works out for her. What in the actual hell?

      Well, I would understand Regina and by extension Rumple. Doing things the easy way is......easy. Regina and Rumple went in thinking that changing themselves would lead to happiness. But what they realize is that you suffer if you're a hero and you suffer if you are a villain. Rumple chooses to be a villain because honestly, nothing ever works out for him, and the heroes seem borderline stupid and forgiving. All the three villians fall in the trap of "redumption" that the show created. They all were good for "reasons" and when those reasons aren't there or good enough, they backslide. They all seem to do it for the prizes they can win and when they don't win, is it really worth the effort?

      Yeah, yeah the show "tells, doesn't show" the opposite as if they are all truly redeemed and stuff.



      Okay the Roland bit is because I want to keep him. He's so cute how can you not want to keep him?

      What do you mean about Hook not doing much? (sorry but it just felt random). The Rumple and Regina treatments are very different in my opinion; he is now regarded as the enemy and is treated as such while Regina's like "Let's all hold hands and sing around the campfire."

      Killian's redemption was very much for himself-"Being the man I want to be."  And it started with Baelfire. Emma may have inspired him to be better but he did it for himself and to fix his past mistakes-seen with Bae and Ariel. I believe we have had this discussion before and it went nowhere so I'd rather not get into that. He was tortured, presumably for his Dark One-ness. And he willingly subjected himself to said torture. I think that's enough payment. Arthur is now dedicating his death to helping the people of the UW, which is pretty good and I'm kinda bummed we'll never see it. Ingrid killed herself to make up for it. All this is redemption because they are working to better themselves while Regina takes the easy route.

      It's not Snow I'm mad at it's the writers for saying 'Snow is to blame for the EQ'. 

      My problem is that Regina is the only one who complains. Other characters have had it harder than her but they manage to get through it without complaining. Why do we see Regina whining over how life 'never works out for her' but not Emma about how she felt like an orphan for 28 years (okay we hear some but nowhere near as much as Regina) or Killian talking about how he, nine episodes ago, was being brutally tortured.

      The thing is, Regina says she 'hates' doing good because there's nothing in it for her and it "leads to loss". Killian is shown to do good when there was nothing in it for him-killing himself in 5x11, owning up to Ariel, saving David (he didn't plan on telling anyone and was uncomfortable with the praise), trading the JR for a magic bean (again, didn't plan on telling anyone), saving Arthur's ass (when he could have let the guy who killed him suffer forever).

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:

      About Roland:In a perfect world, I'd like him and Robin Jr to either Snow and David or Emma and Killian. However, since that would never happen, I'd like Robin Jr to go back to Sherwood Forest with Roland and Zelena to visit often. 

      And then there was the victim blaming by Snow "I helped bring her into this world." No, Snow you did NOT. You were an innocent child who did nothing wrong.

      In a perfect world, I would hope everyone would live happily with their biological parents, because no one would ever die. At any rate, they would not live with random people they barely know, which is what you are suggesting. Also, just because you think someone is a bad person, does not mean that they should have their biological child taken away from them. Zelena has not done anything abusive to her daughter, and so there is no reason she can't raise her.

      You are totally giving Snow a free pass, when what she said was true. Regina told her not to say anything about her and Daniel, Snow promised she wouldn't, and then she opened up her big mouth to Cora anyway. Did Snow purposely break her promise to screw Regina over? No, of course not, but it doesn't change the fact that Snow did in fact break a promise, and that led to Daniel's death, and therefore for Regina to start becoming the Evil Queen.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CadoDoan wrote:

      1. For 28 years Emma had no one. Yet she didn't turn into a mass murderer!

      2. "Her karma will still be there." She said this. She wants to be free of consequences. If she wanted to be a better person she could, oh I don't know, try to be a better person?

      3. You realise that Killian had to work in order to ge that love in the first place. He had to start changing before anyone gave him the time of day!  He wears the rins as a reminder to be better, to be the person he is now. Also, what? When has Killian acted like Killian and Hook were two different people, or blamed his darkness on others? NEVER! He was put the blame on himself, every time. He didn't get a 'GOOJF'  card-he got a reward for getting the pages that told them how to defear Hades. Without them, they never would have been able to defeat Hades in the first place (and he rsiked his own soul and saved Arthur). Unlike Regina, he had to work to prove himself. So it wasn't "minimal" it was the whole freaking reason they defeated Hades. Herc and Meg didn't help defeat Hades and are currently having fun in Paradise.

      Need I remind you that Hook was being weak and tried to send his love(!)'s family to Hell just because he didn't overcome his darkness? 

      Need I remind you that:

      a) He begged not to be turned into the Dark One

      b) Fully acknowledged he was weak

      c) Actually willingly sent himself to Hell to stop it-thereby overcoing the Darkness?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Hook, once he lost :the Emma he loved", went dark and nearly killed everyone. He eventually got around to sacrificing himself because that's not the man he wants to be. Regina lost Robin, but we don't see her going around nearly killing people but sort of wanting to. They are practically on differnt roads of redmeption.

      Everyone gathering around Regina is because they are practically all together. When Snow is feeling down, Regina is there for her. When Regina is feeling down, Snow (and all those she drags along) are there for her. You're arguing character dynamics which leads to a flawed argument (which I understand). I'll pretty much lay it out:

      Hook has pretty much only Emma as a positive connection. He hardly interacts with the rest.

      Rumple has Belle as a positive connection. Rumple is iffy on everyone else.

      Zelena has only Regina.

      Regina has Emma, Snow, and Henry as a positive connection. So, it's not like Regina gets unwarranted group hugs. The group will never gather around someone like Zelena, Belle or Hook if they are having troubles, simply because they aren't well connected in the Charming circle of friends.

      The question that would have to be asked: Do you want other characters to complain about their angst? Do you want characters to all be the same? If Regina, Zelena, Hook and Rumple all went the same route of redemption, it would get tedious.

      There are problems on every side of the aisle. Many could argue that Hook's redmeption is iffy, that the show caters to him, and he gets everything he wants. Some argue that in the case of Regina. I think they are both right and wrong in many respects.

      Hook's "I saved them from the trouble I started" redemption is bad because if you caused the problem and then changed you're mind, you're still a terrible person. (aka like Regina with the trigger). I actually thought his redemption was passable until it was confirmed in 5a that his goodness was contingent on Emma and still is in many respects. He puts Emma too far on a pedastal and to the bloody plank with the other characters.

      I think a similar way with Regina. She feels remorse, but it's centered around her small sphere of influence and not the countless victims. I think the revelation that she struggling and sort of wants to give in, but doesn't because of "reasons" is a great reveal because before that I think her redemtion was terribly simplified and whitewashed if she just switched on a dime. That's actually what plagues Zelena a little because she's a terrible person who should countless times she can't be trusted, but I think she's been the best character this whole season.

      Rumple's a different story. Even in this episode, it seems like they want to evolve Rumple, but they killed it far back then and I actually side with Rumple (on everything other than how he treats Belle). When he did the right thing, his son died. When he did the right thing, Belle left him. He suffered being powerless and good, why not go back into the comfort of powerful magic. I see where he's coming from. But the writers are really making it hard when they just make him evil for evil's sake. I mean, before they cartooned Rumple, I'm sure he would never kill or try to kill Emma or Rregina as he showed some respect for them in seasons 1 to 3.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:

      1. For 28 years Emma had no one. Yet she didn't turn into a mass murderer!


      I am pretty sure Regina and Emma were talking about the recent Dark Swan events and not Emma's childhood life in general.

      But even if that were the case, Emma wasn't trapped in a loveless marriage, had her true love killed in front of her eyes by a domineering mother, and most importantly, she didn't have an all-powerful DO with the ability to see the future actively trying to turn her evil.

      Recall that Snow might have turned as evil as Regina after she drank the potion given to her by Rumple that made her forget love. It was just fortunate for her that David was there to pull her back from the brink of darkness using TLK.


      2. "Her karma will still be there." She said this. She wants to be free of consequences. If she wanted to be a better person she could, oh I don't know, try to be a better person?


      Are you seriously saying that she has never tried?


      3. You realise that Killian had to work in order to ge that love in the first place. He had to start changing before anyone gave him the time of day!  


      What has that got to do with anything? He worked for Emma's love, he got it and that's great for him. But that doesn't mean he is forgiven for his past sins to others like what he stated.


      He wears the rins as a reminder to be better, to be the person he is now.


      Except that wasn't what he said, he said the rings were a reminder that if someone loves you then all sins are forgiven.


      Also, what? When has Killian acted like Killian and Hook were two different people, or blamed his darkness on others? NEVER! He was put the blame on himself, every time.


      I would agree that this is one point where Hook is superior to Regina because Regina does have the tendency to place blame on others instead of looking towards herself. However, recall that one episode where Hook blamed his "evil hand" on his misdeeds even though it was all him all along?

      But it is not really relevant to what I was contending though - that Hooks seems to think that because he found Emma's love, his sins are forgiven (by his own words).


      He didn't get a 'GOOJF'  card-he got a reward for getting the pages that told them how to defear Hades. Without them, they never would have been able to defeat Hades in the first place (and he rsiked his own soul and saved Arthur). Unlike Regina, he had to work to prove himself. So it wasn't "minimal" it was the whole freaking reason they defeated Hades. Herc and Meg didn't help defeat Hades and are currently having fun in Paradise.


      Hades was defeated because Zelena stabbed him with the crystal which she already knew from Hades was very powerful. Even if she didn't know that it could kill a God, in that kind of situation, the only logical thing was to have used it against Hades (if only to injure him so that Regina could get away).

      Hook didn't really help all that much in the underworld arc. Cerberus was killed by Snow, Herc and Megara. Gold was the one who discovered a way into Hades' lair so that Emma could rescue Hook. The storybook pages were found by Liam who would have hid them if Emma didn't detect him lying (and which Hook actually admonished her for).

      If Herc and Meg hadn't helped Snow defeat Cerberus, then there would be no way to enter Hades' lair (even after Hades left the underworld), so Hook would never have gotten those Storybook pages. So if you say Hook helped defeat Hades, then you can't discount Hercules' and Megara's role either.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Hook, once he lost :the Emma he loved", went dark and nearly killed everyone. He eventually got around to sacrificing himself because that's not the man he wants to be. Regina lost Robin, but we don't see her going around nearly killing people but sort of wanting to. They are practically on differnt roads of redmeption.

      Everyone gathering around Regina is because they are practically all together. When Snow is feeling down, Regina is there for her. When Regina is feeling down, Snow (and all those she drags along) are there for her. You're arguing character dynamics which leads to a flawed argument (which I understand). I'll pretty much lay it out:

      Hook has pretty much only Emma as a positive connection. He hardly interacts with the rest.

      Rumple has Belle as a positive connection. Rumple is iffy on everyone else.

      Zelena has only Regina.

      Regina has Emma, Snow, and Henry as a positive connection. So, it's not like Regina gets unwarranted group hugs. The group will never gather around someone like Zelena, Belle or Hook if they are having troubles, simply because they aren't well connected in the Charming circle of friends.

      The question that would have to be asked: Do you want other characters to complain about their angst? Do you want characters to all be the same? If Regina, Zelena, Hook and Rumple all went the same route of redemption, it would get tedious.

      There are problems on every side of the aisle. Many could argue that Hook's redmeption is iffy, that the show caters to him, and he gets everything he wants. Some argue that in the case of Regina. I think they are both right and wrong in many respects.

      Hook's "I saved them from the trouble I started" redemption is bad because if you caused the problem and then changed you're mind, you're still a terrible person. (aka like Regina with the trigger). I actually thought his redemption was passable until it was confirmed in 5a that his goodness was contingent on Emma and still is in many respects. He puts Emma too far on a pedastal and to the bloody plank with the other characters.

      I think a similar way with Regina. She feels remorse, but it's centered around her small sphere of influence and not the countless victims. I think the revelation that she struggling and sort of wants to give in, but doesn't because of "reasons" is a great reveal because before that I think her redemtion was terribly simplified and whitewashed if she just switched on a dime. That's actually what plagues Zelena a little because she's a terrible person who should countless times she can't be trusted, but I think she's been the best character this whole season.

      Rumple's a different story. Even in this episode, it seems like they want to evolve Rumple, but they killed it far back then and I actually side with Rumple (on everything other than how he treats Belle). When he did the right thing, his son died. When he did the right thing, Belle left him. He suffered being powerless and good, why not go back into the comfort of powerful magic. I see where he's coming from. But the writers are really making it hard when they just make him evil for evil's sake. I mean, before they cartooned Rumple, I'm sure he would never kill or try to kill Emma or Rregina as he showed some respect for them in seasons 1 to 3.

      Damn it's almost as if Killian had a Dark Curse forced upon him. Or something idk.

      Hook has Henry and Charming.

      You seem to be misunnderstanding my Snow/Regina problem. It's not that Snow is helpign her it's that Snow is taking the blame for something that wasn't her fault.

      Except Hook regretted it and said he deserved to go to the Underworld. Very key detail there. And that is one point in his redemption. When he brought them to NL was he saving them from the trouble he started? Or when he saved Charming? Or when he brought Emma to Storybrooke?

      His redemption is pretty much coming from a place of him wanting to be better. It started with him wanting to make amends for what he did to Bae and continued on wanting to be better. If it were on Emma he would have barged in and gone "Yo Swan I just traded my ship for you!". He did a lot of good deeds before he got with Emma. What do you mean 'to a bloody plank' with the others? He really only dislikes Rumple and is irritated by Regina and Zelena. He thinks Henry's great, Charming is pretty much his bestie and he doesn't interact with Snow so I wouldn't know.

      I agree about Regina only regretting stuff because it didn't work out well for her and not regretting that she killed hundreds of innocent people. That's why I can never take her redemption seriously.

      I see Rumple as "I'm going to do what's right for me." I've always seen him that way.

      The thing is- you can't stop doing good just because it doesn't work out well for you. That is pretty much how villains happen.

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    • Damn it's almost as if Killian had a Dark Curse forced upon him. Or something idk.

      Hook has Henry and Charming.

      You seem to be misunnderstanding my Snow/Regina problem. It's not that Snow is helpign her it's that Snow is taking the blame for something that wasn't her fault.

      Except Hook regretted it and said he deserved to go to the Underworld. Very key detail there. And that is one point in his redemption. When he brought them to NL was he saving them from the trouble he started? Or when he saved Charming? Or when he brought Emma to Storybrooke?

      His redemption is pretty much coming from a place of him wanting to be better. It started with him wanting to make amends for what he did to Bae and continued on wanting to be better. If it were on Emma he would have barged in and gone "Yo Swan I just traded my ship for you!". He did a lot of good deeds before he got with Emma. What do you mean 'to a bloody plank' with the others? He really only dislikes Rumple and is irritated by Regina and Zelena. He thinks Henry's great, Charming is pretty much his bestie and he doesn't interact with Snow so I wouldn't know.

      Hook does good because he fears of losing Emma. He doesn't care anyone but Emma. He acts like it because he knew when he did, Emma will dumb her. Remember from 4x15, Hook's line to Emma "Don't you Emma. [My happy ending] is you". If Emma dies someday, he won't be a father-figure for Henry (it's worse when I imagine now). He won't stay by Charming family. It all ends up with Emma. No Emma then no Hook.

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    • Toma Cre wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      1. For 28 years Emma had no one. Yet she didn't turn into a mass murderer!

      I am pretty sure Regina and Emma were talking about the recent Dark Swan events and not Emma's childhood life in general.

      But even if that were the case, Emma wasn't trapped in a loveless marriage, had her true love killed in front of her eyes by a domineering mother, and most importantly, she didn't have an all-powerful DO with the ability to see the future actively trying to turn her evil.

      Recall that Snow might have turned as evil as Regina after she drank the potion given to her by Rumple that made her forget love. It was just fortunate for her that David was there to pull her back from the brink of darkness using TLK.

      Okay but it's still not fair on Emma for Regina to compare her EQness to the Dark Swan. Regina wasn't cursed, Emma was.



      2. "Her karma will still be there." She said this. She wants to be free of consequences. If she wanted to be a better person she could, oh I don't know, try to be a better person?

      Are you seriously saying that she has never tried?

      Yes.



      3. You realise that Killian had to work in order to ge that love in the first place. He had to start changing before anyone gave him the time of day!  

      What has that got to do with anything? He worked for Emma's love, he got it and that's great for him. But that doesn't mean he is forgiven for his past sins to others like what he stated.

      I meant that he had to work to get the SB gang to trust him-by taking them to NL, saving Henry, getting Emma. What I mean is he had to work to be the person they love, the person worthy of forgiving.



      He wears the rins as a reminder to be better, to be the person he is now.

      Except that wasn't what he said, he said the rings were a reminder that if someone loves you then all sins are forgiven.

      Okay, fine. I see it that way because he wears those rings even when he's not a villain, so they serve as a reminder of his past. I see the "love=forgiveness" line as "You feel forgiven when someone loves you cuz they see someone worthy of forgiveness."



      Also, what? When has Killian acted like Killian and Hook were two different people, or blamed his darkness on others? NEVER! He was put the blame on himself, every time.

      I would agree that this is one point where Hook is superior to Regina because Regina does have the tendency to place blame on others instead of looking towards herself. However, recall that one episode where Hook blamed his "evil hand" on his misdeeds even though it was all him all along?

      But it is not really relevant to what I was contending though - that Hooks seems to think that because he found Emma's love, his sins are forgiven (by his own words).



      He didn't get a 'GOOJF'  card-he got a reward for getting the pages that told them how to defear Hades. Without them, they never would have been able to defeat Hades in the first place (and he rsiked his own soul and saved Arthur). Unlike Regina, he had to work to prove himself. So it wasn't "minimal" it was the whole freaking reason they defeated Hades. Herc and Meg didn't help defeat Hades and are currently having fun in Paradise.

      Hades was defeated because Zelena stabbed him with the crystal which she already knew from Hades was very powerful. Even if she didn't know that it could kill a God, in that kind of situation, the only logical thing was to have used it against Hades (if only to injure him so that Regina could get away).

      Still, thanks to him, she knew it would kill him. I think Zelena may be a bit wiser than to stab a god with something she didn't know could hurt him.

      Hook didn't really help all that much in the underworld arc. Cerberus was killed by Snow, Herc and Megara. Gold was the one who discovered a way into Hades' lair so that Emma could rescue Hook. The storybook pages were found by Liam who would have hid them if Emma didn't detect him lying (and which Hook actually admonished her for).

      Sorry he was a little busy being tortured to help out! About Liam; he apologised and admitted she was right. If your SO came up to you and said 'Hey I think your sibling aka the only family you've ever known is lying to you' while said sibling was like 'No!' would you believe him or the SO?

      He got Snow out of the UW.

      If Herc and Meg hadn't helped Snow defeat Cerberus, then there would be no way to enter Hades' lair (even after Hades left the underworld), so Hook would never have gotten those Storybook pages. So if you say Hook helped defeat Hades, then you can't discount Hercules' and Megara's role either.

      Okay now you're nitpicking. You might as well say "Well if it wasn't for Cerberus killing Hercules in the first place then they never would have found Hades' liar and Hook never would have found the pages, so really Cerberus should get an extra chance at life!"


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    • Aine1989 wrote:

      2. "Her karma will still be there." She said this. She wants to be free of consequences. If she wanted to be a better person she could, oh I don't know, try to be a better person?

      Are you seriously saying that she has never tried?

      Yes.

      What about when she undid Peter Pan's curse knowing that she would never see Henry again. Or when she saved Marian from the Snow Monster even though she could probably have let it kill Marian and nobody would know any better. Or when she was working desperately to save Marian from the Snow Queen's curse even though it would have benefited her to let Marian die from it. Or when she told Robin to bring Marian across the town line to save her life even though that meant she would never see Robin again.


      Aine1989 wrote:

      3. You realise that Killian had to work in order to ge that love in the first place. He had to start changing before anyone gave him the time of day!  

      What has that got to do with anything? He worked for Emma's love, he got it and that's great for him. But that doesn't mean he is forgiven for his past sins to others like what he stated.

      I meant that he had to work to get the SB gang to trust him-by taking them to NL, saving Henry, getting Emma. What I mean is he had to work to be the person they love, the person worthy of forgiving.

      How is that that much different from Regina had to do? She worked hard to be worthy of Henry's love. David was pretty mistrustful and critical of her until Camelot arc (he had that bromance with Hook pretty early on). She had to prove to the dwarves that she could defend the town etc.

      Also, the problem with redeeming yourself because of one person is pretty problematic as others have pointed out. If you lose that one person then you have no reason to be good anymore. I don't think Hook has really proven himself or been tested yet in that he can be good for the sake of being good. He sacrificed himself to stop the DOs but that was also to save Emma. Perhaps if he had been separated from Emma a little longer we might have a better idea on how far he has gone in his redemption.


      Sorry he was a little busy being tortured to help out! About Liam; he apologised and admitted she was right. If your SO came up to you and said 'Hey I think your sibling aka the only family you've ever known is lying to you' while said sibling was like 'No!' would you believe him or the SO?</span>

      I am not blaming him for being a victim, but then victims don't deserve rewards either.

      He got Snow out of the UW.

      Which wasn't really that important a step towards the goal of defeating Hades.

      If Herc and Meg hadn't helped Snow defeat Cerberus, then there would be no way to enter Hades' lair (even after Hades left the underworld), so Hook would never have gotten those Storybook pages. So if you say Hook helped defeat Hades, then you can't discount Hercules' and Megara's role either.

      Okay now you're nitpicking. You might as well say "Well if it wasn't for Cerberus killing Hercules in the first place then they never would have found Hades' liar and Hook never would have found the pages, so really Cerberus should get an extra chance at life!"

      Intent is everything. Cerberus certainly didn't have any intention of helping the SB gang in any way. Hercules, on the other hand, knew that Snow and family were going up against Hades to rescue Hook and he overcame his fear to help Snow face down Cerberus and kill it. This would ultimately lead to Hades' death (even though Hercules didn't know it at that time).

      Would you agree that if a soldier took part in a small battle which was significant in tipping the scales for the larger war effort then the soldier deserves some credit for helping win the war?

      My point is that Hook didn't really contribute much to the events that ultimately lead to Hades' defeat except for being the reason that the SB gang were in the underworld in the first place. So Hercules deserved a reward more than Hook did.

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    • Toma Cre wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:

      2. "Her karma will still be there." She said this. She wants to be free of consequences. If she wanted to be a better person she could, oh I don't know, try to be a better person?

      Are you seriously saying that she has never tried?

      Yes.

      What about when she undid Peter Pan's curse knowing that she would never see Henry again. Or when she saved Marian from the Snow Monster even though she could probably have let it kill Marian and nobody would know any better. Or when she was working desperately to save Marian from the Snow Queen's curse even though it would have benefited her to let Marian die from it. Or when she told Robin to bring Marian across the town line to save her life even though that meant she would never see Robin again.



      Aine1989 wrote:

      3. You realise that Killian had to work in order to ge that love in the first place. He had to start changing before anyone gave him the time of day!  

      What has that got to do with anything? He worked for Emma's love, he got it and that's great for him. But that doesn't mean he is forgiven for his past sins to others like what he stated.

      I meant that he had to work to get the SB gang to trust him-by taking them to NL, saving Henry, getting Emma. What I mean is he had to work to be the person they love, the person worthy of forgiving.

      How is that that much different from Regina had to do? She worked hard to be worthy of Henry's love. David was pretty mistrustful and critical of her until Camelot arc (he had that bromance with Hook pretty early on). She had to prove to the dwarves that she could defend the town etc.

      Also, the problem with redeeming yourself because of one person is pretty problematic as others have pointed out. If you lose that one person then you have no reason to be good anymore. I don't think Hook has really proven himself or been tested yet in that he can be good for the sake of being good. He sacrificed himself to stop the DOs but that was also to save Emma. Perhaps if he had been separated from Emma a little longer we might have a better idea on how far he has gone in his redemption.



      Sorry he was a little busy being tortured to help out! About Liam; he apologised and admitted she was right. If your SO came up to you and said 'Hey I think your sibling aka the only family you've ever known is lying to you' while said sibling was like 'No!' would you believe him or the SO?</span>

      I am not blaming him for being a victim, but then victims don't deserve rewards either.


      He got Snow out of the UW.

      Which wasn't really that important a step towards the goal of defeating Hades.


      If Herc and Meg hadn't helped Snow defeat Cerberus, then there would be no way to enter Hades' lair (even after Hades left the underworld), so Hook would never have gotten those Storybook pages. So if you say Hook helped defeat Hades, then you can't discount Hercules' and Megara's role either.

      Okay now you're nitpicking. You might as well say "Well if it wasn't for Cerberus killing Hercules in the first place then they never would have found Hades' liar and Hook never would have found the pages, so really Cerberus should get an extra chance at life!"

      Intent is everything. Cerberus certainly didn't have any intention of helping the SB gang in any way. Hercules, on the other hand, knew that Snow and family were going up against Hades to rescue Hook and he overcame his fear to help Snow face down Cerberus and kill it. This would ultimately lead to Hades' death (even though Hercules didn't know it at that time).

      Would you agree that if a soldier took part in a small battle which was significant in tipping the scales for the larger war effort then the soldier deserves some credit for helping win the war?

      My point is that Hook didn't really contribute much to the events that ultimately lead to Hades' defeat except for being the reason that the SB gang were in the underworld in the first place. So Hercules deserved a reward more than Hook did.

      I meant to elaborate more on Regina trying harder, don't know why I didn't.

      Pan's curse-it was either that or be cursed.

      All 3 Marian points-she spent the whole of 4b planning on erasing her from time so.....

      About Regina 'working'-basically I feel Hook put more effort into his redemption than Regina did. By the end of 3A, Henry denied she was a villain because 'you're my mom.' Yet all she did was return his heart to him. Hook got them to, through and off Neverland and saved David and Neal with very little recognition from anyone other than Emma.

      Again-that bromance was earned by saving his life. And reuniting him with his daughter. And encouraging Emma to forgive him and Snow. 

      In the UW once Emma was gone, Hook still sent up the pages. As far as he knew, he'd never see her again. He didn't have to save Storybrooke (for the fourth time) but he did. He has also told Ariel about what happened and freed the fairies (with Belle)-both events not involving Emma.

      In season 4 he said to Emma-"I hope you never forgive me because that means you'll get this in time to save yourself." He doesn't want her to forgive him. He places her wellbeing over their relationship.

      "to save Emma" and everyone else. He has also saved Snow, Neal, David and Henry and the entire town indirectly.

      He made sure Meg got to safety not him. He could have used her as bait and escaped on his own. Instead, he was "her first, me second."

      What I mean about Hook v Herc is that Hercules was really only in for helping save Hook. He didn't know about Hades in SB. If he was there and did help out then it would be a different case, but he wasn't there becaus he was getting his rewards. Partying up on Mt Olympus

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    • Lol, I knew this would eventually happen, but guys (and gals), that is for another thread. This is specifically for this episode, and LAbor of Love has it's own, XD.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      ...

      All the examples you gave failed to disprove my point - that Hook can be self-sacrificing for Emma but not necessary for a complete stranger if Emma is no longer in the picture.

      Yes, all the stuff that you mentioned were good acts by Hook, but they all either benefited Emma in some way (sending up the pages) or he did them while Emma was still part of his life thus acting as his moral compass (e.g. freeing the fairies which he trapped in the first place). He can do good because of and for Emma but that doesn't mean he can do good just for the sake of being good.

      Rumple could help David without recompense because of Belle and he could sacrifice himself for Neal - doesn't prove that he is truly redeemed. Even when Neal was gone he stayed good for a while but after an extended separation, he eventually back slid.

      Regarding the Pan curse. Remember how Emma said that she would rather be cursed than free because at least she would be together with Snow? EQ Regina would probably have thought that way with Henry and not care about anything else.

      On the point about Marian. Yes, Regina thought about killing Marian, but she didn't go through with it and eventually saved her from the Snow Monster even though no one was there to see her do it and praise her for it and she had everything to benefit from letting Marian die. How is that not an example of her fighting against her baser instincts and trying to be a better person?

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    • (MOD): Let's not have more discussion about things not concerning this episode.

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    • anyone notice the three musketeers and some arabian fashion? I hope Hyde's ally is the band of 40 thieves

      and what is the tale relates to the air balloon?

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    • Air balloon is used in various tales, the most notable of which is Around the World in 80 Days.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
       

      By Emma's a better person, I admit I got a bit carried away, I mean that Regina was basically saying that "You don't understand how hard it is to fight darkness because you won." But she does understand how hard it is, even though she was better at resisting it than she was. It's like an addict saying to an ex-addict 'You don't understand how hard it is!' Regina basically said "Yeah shut up your struggles don't match mine."

      That's because it doesn't. Regina was the Evil Queen for years, Emma had the Darkness in her 7 weeks, and only gave in for one of those. The two don't compare, and they never will. Your argument is invalid.

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    • Beautiful episodes!! I thikn they were well worth the wait and a beautiful season finale!!! Just a few (dozen) thoughts on it.

      First, I'm confused about how magic works in the LWM. So if magic was there all along and just didn't work because no one believed it was, how come Ingrid couldn't use her ice magic when the Apprentice sent her there? I'm sure I'm missing something, but she didn't know it was a "Land Without Magic", did she? She tried to use magic on the fake psychic and discovered her powers didn't work there.

      Secondly, with all this running about that Regina, Emma and Rumple have been doing, how come no one thought to teleport and save time? Rumple used the same magic to summon the crystal to his hand (yet he didn't do it when the portal took Pandora's Box).

      I LOVED the effects in these episodes! The CGI department have upped their game. At least in terms of Gold's extra-cool fireball, the Evil Queen becoming Sandman, and the splitting of Jekyll/Hyde and Regina/Queen. Much better than Hades' crappy hair and the like we've seen this season.

      In addition to the Land Without Magic becoming Neverland 2.0 (where all you need is faith, trust, and a wishing fountain), I still don't understand why the Land of Untold Stories is named thus. Is this something they plan to explain in season 6? When we first heard the name I expected this to be ONCE's way of incorporating a whole new world of characters of their own, so why are yet more characters we all know there? A strange case indeed.

      Also, how did EQ manage to reform in front of the dragon if Regina had crushed her heart? I thought at first the sand would possess the Dragon and he would transform into EQ - what?

      I must say I loved the incorporation of Jekyll and Hyde. It opens up a whole new perspective on this show's timeless debate on good/bad, light/dark, and I think it was clever indeed how they found a way to bring back the Evil Queen. I'm so excited at the possibilities for next season!!

      In terms of when I wondered what possible story there would be for 6A, ("They've battled darkness, and a god. What more can they do?") I didn't emerge disappointed. Mr Hyde may not be quite as threatening as Hades or the Dark Swan, but Regina now has to fight herself. I hope the writers do this premise justice because it can go far - but then again, after how they spent their Greek mythology episodes...

      Anyway, one last thing ... I LOVE LOVE LOVED Emma and Hook's moment outside Granny's at the end. Emma beautifully linked it all back to the ending of 4B, and made me laugh at just how much had happened since Emma first told Hook she loved him. For me it established that season 5 was Emma and Hook's year, and now it's Regina's time to shine. So much yes for Captain Swan!

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    • But, now that I've read the entire thread, allow me to post my thoughts on the episode. This was by far one of the better episodes of the season. (Slightly against its credit: Nothing can be as bad as Ruby Slippers, IMO, but still, it was good.) It definitively showed how much Regina has evolved as a character since the beginning, as she is now fighting her evil instincts and trying to be a good person. The parts with Henry are the only parts I couldn't stand.

      Good:

      -Zelena, Snowing, and Hook. Their interaction was stellar, and they made good foils for each other.

      -Regina opening up. Like I said, she has grown so much since the beginning of the show. I'd almost call her a better person than Emma, since she is subduing her darkness.

      -Jekyll and Hyde! Bookworm here, and I am SO excited for what they have in store. Everyone's prasing Sam for his performance, but Jekyll's actor is on point, and how I've always imagined him.

      Bad:

      -Henry. Everything. About. Henry. Go. To. Boarding. School. Already. Seriously. He's a bozo. And annoying. And stupid. And annoying. Did I mention he's annoying?

      Anyone else excited for delving into the LUS? It's my headcannon that it was an uninhabited land, until someone got banished there, and a lot of people followed. Classic liturature: full force, AWAYYYYYYYY!!!!

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    • Jordy267 wrote:

      Also, how did EQ manage to reform in front of the dragon if Regina had crushed her heart? I thought at first the sand would possess the Dragon and he would transform into EQ - what?

      Personally, I feel like that has something to do with why Regina summoned her. Regina wanted a quick way out of her past, and the potion was an easy way to deal with all her problems. You can't get rid of your inner demons by creating a physical form for them and killing them. It has to be an interan thing, something you come to inside yourself, in your own mind.

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    • WilliamOliver11 wrote:
      Jordy267 wrote:
      Also, how did EQ manage to reform in front of the dragon if Regina had crushed her heart? I thought at first the sand would possess the Dragon and he would transform into EQ - what?
      Personally, I feel like that has something to do with why Regina summoned her. Regina wanted a quick way out of her past, and the potion was an easy way to deal with all her problems. You can't get rid of your inner demons by creating a physical form for them and killing them. It has to be an interan thing, something you come to inside yourself, in your own mind.

      Don't get me started on the battle between one's good and bad sides because I'm a bit iffy on that subject. Let's not forget that if Regina did get rid of one side of her, she becomes half a person. It would be interesting to see how they explain how the EQ embodiment works as a purely evil specimen.

      The ultimate reason behind the EQ's rage is Daniel's death, which only riled her because she loved him. So either the EQ will be in love with Daniel, rendering her not entirely evil, or she'll not care about him, in which case what does she want to achieve?

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    • I also wonder how ONCE will explain the creation of Mr Hyde. I doubt they'll stick to the original reason - so that Jekyll can give into his dark side without feeling guilty or ruining his good name. The original Jekyll is not so benevolent as ONCE would have him, so I assume Rumple had something to do with it.

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    • After seeing this episode's premise and then remembering the phenomenal job (and by phenomenal I mean horrendous) they did with 4b's darkness talk, I guess I'll have to lower my expectations. Sigh....

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    • Jordy267 wrote:

      First, I'm confused about how magic works in the LWM. So if magic was there all along and just didn't work because no one believed it was, how come Ingrid couldn't use her ice magic when the Apprentice sent her there? I'm sure I'm missing something, but she didn't know it was a "Land Without Magic", did she? She tried to use magic on the fake psychic and discovered her powers didn't work there.

      In addition to the Land Without Magic becoming Neverland 2.0 (where all you need is faith, trust, and a wishing fountain), I still don't understand why the Land of Untold Stories is named thus. Is this something they plan to explain in season 6? When we first heard the name I expected this to be ONCE's way of incorporating a whole new world of characters of their own, so why are yet more characters we all know there? A strange case indeed.

      The best explaination for magic not working in the LWM is that not enough people believe it, so it doesn't work. No one would believe Ingrid can do ice magic, so she can't. No one believes a demon like Chernabog exists, so he doesn't. Alternativly, magic works differently in different realms, and it is possible that was Ingrid's problem. She didn't know how to adjust her magic so it would work in LWM.

      From what they said about The Land of Untold Stories, I inturpet that it is named as such because the people who come there had to flee their "stories" (aka their origin worlds) for various reasons, and thus have not told their stories yet. Hyde wants them to play out their stories in Storybrooke, for whatever reason.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:

      The best explaination for magic not working in the LWM is that not enough people believe it, so it doesn't work. No one would believe Ingrid can do ice magic, so she can't. No one believes a demon like Chernabog exists, so he doesn't. Alternativly, magic works differently in different realms, and it is possible that was Ingrid's problem. She didn't know how to adjust her magic so it would work in LWM.

      From what they said about The Land of Untold Stories, I inturpet that it is named as such because the people who come there had to flee their "stories" (aka their origin worlds) for various reasons, and thus have not told their stories yet. Hyde wants them to play out their stories in Storybrooke, for whatever reason.

      OK that makes sense.

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    • Wait, I've been wondering about the snow globe which Henry said it contains a frozen village. Which village is that? Is that a mystery we gonna find out later?

      I remember the snow globe first appeared on the Snow Queen and Gold dealing scene on 'The Snow Queen' right?

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    • Wicked Wizard of the West wrote:
      Wait, I've been wondering about the snow globe which Henry said it contains a frozen village. Which village is that? Is that a mystery we gonna find out later?

      For now, my theory is that Weselton is in that snowglobe.

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    • Interesting contrast: Hyde forced Jekyll out and was dispointed with how he appeared. Jekyll couldn't stand being with Hyde. Hyde then tried to kill Jekyll.

      Versus Regina forcing out EQ and EQ disappointed. Regina couldn't stand being with EQ. Regina then attempted to kill EQ (although to be fair, EQ was about to strike if Emma didn't stop her.

      Some mismatch there, but I'm sure Jekyll is the original person, but with the way they sort of paralleled it and with Poole being on the side of the Warden/ Hyde, I can't help but think that Hyde might be the original.

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    • Ok, other than the cringeworthy monologue from the lion in front of the Library, I actually enjoyed Henry in this episode. He at least had motivation for his actions (misdirected though they were), he had a plan, and he followed through with the plan, and he succeded.  You do realize that Henry is actually one of the best villains on the show now. XD

      In all seriousness, I saw some nice character growth for his character, and hope that the writers might build on that next season.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Interesting contrast: Hyde forced Jekyll out and was dispointed with how he appeared. Jekyll couldn't stand being with Hyde. Hyde then tried to kill Jekyll.

      Versus Regina forcing out EQ and EQ disappointed. Regina couldn't stand being with EQ. Regina then attempted to kill EQ (although to be fair, EQ was about to strike if Emma didn't stop her.

      Some mismatch there, but I'm sure Jekyll is the original person, but with the way they sort of paralleled it and with Poole being on the side of the Warden/ Hyde, I can't help but think that Hyde might be the original.

      Poole may have just been bribed by Hyde to take his side (poet and I know it). In 2 episodes alone Hyde has proved a worthy person to make deals with, so anything could be read into Poole's loyalty to him.

      As for which is the "original person", neither one of them is the original because they are both sides of the same person, just as Regina and EQ were once the same.

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    • Jordy267 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Interesting contrast: Hyde forced Jekyll out and was dispointed with how he appeared. Jekyll couldn't stand being with Hyde. Hyde then tried to kill Jekyll.

      Versus Regina forcing out EQ and EQ disappointed. Regina couldn't stand being with EQ. Regina then attempted to kill EQ (although to be fair, EQ was about to strike if Emma didn't stop her.

      Some mismatch there, but I'm sure Jekyll is the original person, but with the way they sort of paralleled it and with Poole being on the side of the Warden/ Hyde, I can't help but think that Hyde might be the original.

      Poole may have just been bribed by Hyde to take his side (poet and I know it). In 2 episodes alone Hyde has proved a worthy person to make deals with, so anything could be read into Poole's loyalty to him.

      As for which is the "original person", neither one of them is the original because they are both sides of the same person, just as Regina and EQ were once the same.

      I would agree. Probably not much of a good person combined though. Geeky doctor and charming, angry, killer. Hmm.....Just have to hope and wait for a backstory.

      Also interesting is Hyde's apparent magical durablity, but the taser knocks him out. Guess that must be powerful magic. I'm guessing he won't be "ganoned" by Rumple in this season, but so far, he doesn't have clear motivation. Wanting people to get their stories finished and told seems rather harmless.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Ok, other than the cringeworthy monologue from the lion in front of the Library, I actually enjoyed Henry in this episode. He at least had motivation for his actions (misdirected though they were), he had a plan, and he followed through with the plan, and he succeded.  You do realize that Henry is actually one of the best villains on the show now. XD

      In all seriousness, I saw some nice character growth for his character, and hope that the writers might build on that next season.

      I agree Henry was more grown up in this episode, even if that grown-up is still annoying. I found it funny that they acted like this is the first time he tried to get rid of magic, not when he tried to blow up the well. It's even funnier to remember that in between these 2 events he almost died trying to save magic. And in not one of these situations does he listen to his parents? Although it really irritates me how shitty he was being to Dark Swan Emma about trying to fix everything without him, yet less than a season later he does the same to her. What happened to being a team, Henry? Oh wait, you have your girlfriend with you okay.

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    • Jordy267 wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Ok, other than the cringeworthy monologue from the lion in front of the Library, I actually enjoyed Henry in this episode. He at least had motivation for his actions (misdirected though they were), he had a plan, and he followed through with the plan, and he succeded.  You do realize that Henry is actually one of the best villains on the show now. XD

      In all seriousness, I saw some nice character growth for his character, and hope that the writers might build on that next season.

      I agree Henry was more grown up in this episode, even if that grown-up is still annoying. I found it funny that they acted like this is the first time he tried to get rid of magic, not when he tried to blow up the well. It's even funnier to remember that in between these 2 events he almost died trying to save magic. And in not one of these situations does he listen to his parents? Although it really irritates me how shitty he was being to Dark Swan Emma about trying to fix everything without him, yet less than a season later he does the same to her. What happened to being a team, Henry? Oh wait, you have your girlfriend with you okay.

      Yeah, if you see movies or anything the power of "infatuation" is stronger than just about anything.

      One issue I had with Henry and Voilet wasn't the weid Dad from Conneticut or Henry being Henry, but it follows what I think all the romances of Once suffer from: One person is the dominant force of doing, the other just accepts whatever the other says.

      Henry plans on destroying magic without even asking Violet about how she will get home and if she wants to go home. Violet just agrees and goes on like the "Robin" that she is. I mean, Henry tosses her like 5 huge books, tells her to read each twice and then gets frustrated when they don't discover anything in the hour they've been there. Hilarious!

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      I would agree. Probably not much of a good person combined though. Geeky doctor and charming, angry, killer. Hmm.....Just have to hope and wait for a backstory.

      Also interesting is Hyde's apparent magical durablity, but the taser knocks him out. Guess that must be powerful magic. I'm guessing he won't be "ganoned" by Rumple in this season, but so far, he doesn't have clear motivation. Wanting people to get their stories finished and told seems rather harmless.

      Well in the original story, Jekyll was a geeky doctor with suppressed dark urges. Really the only reason he created Mr Hyde was to give in to these urges without fear of guilt or ruining his good name - as the name implies, to "hyde" in a different form to do as he liked. I doubt this will be the case in ONCE, though.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Jordy267 wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Ok, other than the cringeworthy monologue from the lion in front of the Library, I actually enjoyed Henry in this episode. He at least had motivation for his actions (misdirected though they were), he had a plan, and he followed through with the plan, and he succeded.  You do realize that Henry is actually one of the best villains on the show now. XD

      In all seriousness, I saw some nice character growth for his character, and hope that the writers might build on that next season.

      I agree Henry was more grown up in this episode, even if that grown-up is still annoying. I found it funny that they acted like this is the first time he tried to get rid of magic, not when he tried to blow up the well. It's even funnier to remember that in between these 2 events he almost died trying to save magic. And in not one of these situations does he listen to his parents? Although it really irritates me how shitty he was being to Dark Swan Emma about trying to fix everything without him, yet less than a season later he does the same to her. What happened to being a team, Henry? Oh wait, you have your girlfriend with you okay.
      Yeah, if you see movies or anything the power of "infatuation" is stronger than just about anything.

      One issue I had with Henry and Voilet wasn't the weid Dad from Conneticut or Henry being Henry, but it follows what I think all the romances of Once suffer from: One person is the dominant force of doing, the other just accepts whatever the other says.

      Henry plans on destroying magic without even asking Violet about how she will get home and if she wants to go home. Violet just agrees and goes on like the "Robin" that she is. I mean, Henry tosses her like 5 huge books, tells her to read each twice and then gets frustrated when they don't discover anything in the hour they've been there. Hilarious!

      I like to think Snow and Charming don't suffer from that, and it's simply a case of the both of them having identical thought patterns or something. But yeah, I hope Violet gets to develop more and be more than the show's token teenage romance and Henry's sidekick.

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    • I think Hyde's motivation could come from a few sources, all of which are somewhat benign.

      One is obviously having a place where these untold stories can be told, probably harmless depending on the story, but also seemingly altruistic.

      Hyde could also be trying to hide Jeckyll as the more sinister of the 2 personalities.  Let's face it, it was Jekyll that developed the serum that physically split the 2, it was likely Jekyll that developed the serum that allows for switching from one personality to the other. And he may have other potions that have similarly non-beneficial effects. From a steam-punk potion perspective, Jekyll may very well rival Rumple or Regina in the potions department.

      Also, it was Hyde, not Jeckyll, that stated (to David and Company) that keeping things locked up was not the problem, it's when you open the gate that trouble starts. 

      Hyde is dark and imposing. But he may not be the villain. time will tell.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:

      Hyde could also be trying to hide Jeckyll as the more sinister of the 2 personalities.  Let's face it, it was Jekyll that developed the serum that physically split the 2, it was likely Jekyll that developed the serum that allows for switching from one personality to the other. And he may have other potions that have similarly non-beneficial effects.

      It was both Jekyll and Hyde that developed the switching serum to begin with. They are the 2 halves of the man who made it. Now that man is gone and replaced by someone who attacks and kidnaps people, and someone who won't even attack the sleeping guard who imprisons him.

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    • Finally watched it. My main thoughts-

      - I really like Mr Hyde. I'm looking forward to seeing more of him as the villain. I was hoping for the LWC or something similarly gothic, but the Land of Untold Stories could bring in some interesting new stuff. I liked the look of the place, nice visual.

      - Liked Regina's stuff, some very nice introspection. I figured she'd split from the Evil Queen, as many did, as soon as Jeckyll and Hyde were introduced. I'm kinda on the fence about that. Always fun to have her around though, if only for the fashion.

      - Henry and Violet. Oh good lord. Well actually, I didn't mind Violet too much, although she sure was the Convenience Fairy in this episode.  First the "hey it's the holy grail, only not, so obviously this is exactly what we need!", then she came out with that "oh my dad is from Connecticut" stupidity so she can stay with Henry... subtle as always guys!

      But Henry. Oh, Henry! I know next to nothing about Violet and yet there I am thinking "Seriously, honey, why on earth do you want to be with this whiny little ratbag?" He was infuriating, he was cringeworthy, I wanted to strangle him and he's fictional! What are you doing to me show?

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    • P3nathan wrote:
      Finally watched it. My main thoughts-

      - I really like Mr Hyde. I'm looking forward to seeing more of him as the villain. I was hoping for the LWC or something similarly gothic, but the Land of Untold Stories could bring in some interesting new stuff. I liked the look of the place, nice visual.

      - Liked Regina's stuff, some very nice introspection. I figured she'd split from the Evil Queen, as many did, as soon as Jeckyll and Hyde were introduced. I'm kinda on the fence about that. Always fun to have her around though, if only for the fashion.

      - Henry and Violet. Oh good lord. Well actually, I didn't mind Violet too much, although she sure was the Convenience Fairy in this episode.  First the "hey it's the holy grail, only not, so obviously this is exactly what we need!", then she came out with that "oh my dad is from Connecticut" stupidity so she can stay with Henry... subtle as always guys!

      But Henry. Oh, Henry! I know next to nothing about Violet and yet there I am thinking "Seriously, honey, why on earth do you want to be with this whiny little ratbag?" He was infuriating, he was cringeworthy, I wanted to strangle him and he's fictional! What are you doing to me show?

      So much agree to this. I like the fact they're using more gothic, maybe we'll get to meet Dracula or Dorian Gray too, or something like that. Because out of all gothic literature, Frankenstein is not nearly my favourite. I can't wait for more Mr Hyde, to be honest I already prefer him 10 times over Hades.

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    • As I got very sidetracked the last time, I'll try to restate my beefs with this episode:

      -Snow blaming herself for "helping bring the EQ into the world." I know it's Snow's personality-hell I would be prone to doing that-but it was the fact that no one denied it. Snow did not birth the EQ, she was an innocent victim manipulated by Cora. If anyone brought the EQ into the world, the blame should fall on Cora, Rumple and Regina, not Snow.

      -The EQ being separated from Regina. My problem with this is that any blame for Regina's past actions (or anyone the EQ hurts this season) will now fall on the EQ not her (despite the fact that Regina and the EQ are the same person). I know, wait until season 6, but I still have low expectations. That and you can't just erase all the dark parts of yourself to avoid dealing with (well-deserved) karma. If you have to physically remove and kill you bad parts to make sure you aren't tempted by them well what does that say about you?

      -Emma being Regina's punching bag. Emma had just got her boyfriend back after losing him twice and Regina threatened him again. Regina stood in front of the woman who was a former Dark One and told her she doesn't understand darkness (she does Regina but obviously no pain compares to yours). And then there was unfairly criticising her ability to find people-"I won't hold my breath"-completely rude and uncalled for. Why Regina felt the need to belittle Emma's talent is beyond me.

      -And on that point, Regina's "I keep suffering." Know who else suffers? Emma Swan, who in the past six weeks alone became the Dark One and lost her boyfriend twice. Killian Jones, who (unwillingly) became the Dark One, died, was tortured and mauled and lost his brother and girlfriend and found out that his ex was currently residing in eternal torment. Snow, who was disowned, hunted like an animal and terrorised and yet she never stopped doing good just because she was suffering.  Yet did either of them sit and say "Well why should I do good, I keep suffering?" No they didn't. It's called life, Regina, suck it up.

      -Henry criticising Emma. "You thought she was going to go all Evil Queen again." "I'm sorry I should have trusted Regina." Given Regina's past history, it was completely reasonabe for Emma not to trust her.

      -Henry's "I want to destroy magic" quest. You would think he'd have learned by now that magic is not the problem it's the person using it.

      -The Captain Swan kiss. I know how much of a big thing it was for Emma to be able to say 'I love you', walls down and not when they are in imminent danger. But after 20 episodes of the going through metaphorical and literal hell, I would have expected a "Let's go home" and a shot of them moving into their new house at least.

      -It felt more like the beginning of season six than the end of season 5. While they could have been neatly tying up Camelot (seriously where was Guinevere. Is she still cursed), freeing the Lost Souls and actually acknowledging and talking about Emma and Killian's trauma, they simply got in with the season 6 plot to leave it on a cliffhanger.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      As I got very sidetracked the last time, I'll try to restate my beefs with this episode:

      -Snow blaming herself for "helping bring the EQ into the world." I know it's Snow's personality-hell I would be prone to doing that-but it was the fact that no one denied it. Snow did not birth the EQ, she was an innocent victim manipulated by Cora. If anyone brought the EQ into the world, the blame should fall on Cora, Rumple and Regina, not Snow.

      Snow accepts partial blame and I'll agree that if I were her, I wouldn't, but even Regina said it was her own fault because she could have forgiven I don't think anyone can change Snow's mind.

      -The EQ being separated from Regina. My problem with this is that any blame for Regina's past actions (or anyone the EQ hurts this season) will now fall on the EQ not her (despite the fact that Regina and the EQ are the same person). I know, wait until season 6, but I still have low expectations. That and you can't just erase all the dark parts of yourself to avoid dealing with (well-deserved) karma. If you have to physically remove and kill you bad parts to make sure you aren't tempted by them well what does that say about you?

      Having low expectations after the writers spent 4b confusing words and poorly defining darkness is cool, but I'm sure the lesson they'll get at is that there are no shortcuts.

      -Emma being Regina's punching bag. Emma had just got her boyfriend back after losing him twice and Regina threatened him again. Regina stood in front of the woman who was a former Dark One and told her she doesn't understand darkness (she does Regina but obviously no pain compares to yours). And then there was unfairly criticising her ability to find people-"I won't hold my breath"-completely rude and uncalled for. Why Regina felt the need to belittle Emma's talent is beyond me.

      I can see why, but as I tend to scour the realms it's generally CS fans that think that while mostly everyone else sees it as alright. Interesting anecdotal talk. Regina clarified that Emma wasn't consumed by the darkness like she was, which is true. Emma respects brutal honesty. It's not like Emma and Hook are one person that have to get offended for both. It's not like Emma would sit there while Regina tortures Hook. That's a punching bag. Regina saying that she wanted to hurt Hook but knew she wouldn't isn't some threat to go threatening Regina about. You don't calm down a person that's on edge by making them angry and Emma knows that.

      I also find that people should see that Regina isn't really belittling people to be rude, but that's just a defense mechanism. When Regina coments on David's vocabulary or Snow's intelligence, it's okay. But as soon as Regina talks about Emma or Hook, there are some fans that cry foul. Regina snarks at everyone, except Henry. I'll admit that sometimes it is overplayed though.

      -And on that point, Regina's "I keep suffering." Know who else suffers? Emma Swan, who in the past six weeks alone became the Dark One and lost her boyfriend twice. Killian Jones, who (unwillingly) became the Dark One, died, was tortured and mauled and lost his brother and girlfriend and found out that his ex was currently residing in eternal torment. Snow, who was disowned, hunted like an animal and terrorised and yet she never stopped doing good just because she was suffering.  Yet did either of them sit and say "Well why should I do good, I keep suffering?" No they didn't. It's called life, Regina, suck it up.

      And Regina never said that noone else suffers. It was a nice inlook at what she was feeling. She's pretty much saying that being evil loses those you love, but being good leads to suffering, so is there any benefit to be good? And in that same convo she chose that she'd choose family and being good over giving into evil.

      -Henry criticising Emma. "You thought she was going to go all Evil Queen again." "I'm sorry I should have trusted Regina." Given Regina's past history, it was completely reasonabe for Emma not to trust her.

      Well, Regina lost Robin like twice and she didn't go evil then, so why now?

      -Henry's "I want to destroy magic" quest. You would think he'd have learned by now that magic is not the problem it's the person using it.

      -The Captain Swan kiss. I know how much of a big thing it was for Emma to be able to say 'I love you', walls down and not when they are in imminent danger. But after 20 episodes of the going through metaphorical and literal hell, I would have expected a "Let's go home" and a shot of them moving into their new house at least.

      But secretly they are in imminent danger, lol.

      -It felt more like the beginning of season six than the end of season 5. While they could have been neatly tying up Camelot (seriously where was Guinevere. Is she still cursed), freeing the Lost Souls and actually acknowledging and talking about Emma and Killian's trauma, they simply got in with the season 6 plot to leave it on a cliffhanger.

      Comments are in bold. I'd pretty much agree with it all, but each portion of the fandom have glass half full and glass half empty thoughts. Hopefully, I try to say, "Why not both?"

      I do agree totally with the fact that the finale was almost a premiere. I also think that you probably can tell that two different set of writers wrote the two episodes. So, likely that's one of the reasons we some things differently.

      Regina's monologue to me was great, but coupled with the next episode it seemed to underplay or take away from what it could have been, but then the last episode was written by A & E.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:

      -It felt more like the beginning of season six than the end of season 5. While they could have been neatly tying up Camelot (seriously where was Guinevere. Is she still cursed), freeing the Lost Souls and actually acknowledging and talking about Emma and Killian's trauma, they simply got in with the season 6 plot to leave it on a cliffhanger.

      Gwen left with the Camelotians. You can see her (played by an uncredited extra) hugging David before she goes through the portal. And this show almost always starts setting up the next arc at the end of the previous arc. And they always end the season on a cliffhanger. Also, I'm guessing your a CaptainSwan fan, and this season was very CaptainSwan heavy (basically 5A was save Emma and 5B was save Hook), so expect them to take somewhat of a backseat to Regina, Zelena, Snow, and David next season for balance purposes.

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    • one thing that I liked about the finale is that they mixed up the characters just a bit. Of course, you had Regina, Emma, Henry, and Rumple on one quest, and that is not too much of a mixup. But you had David, Snow, Killian, and Zelena on the other quest, and that was quite a different mix of characters to work together, an I think it worked well.

      This is hopefully a foretaste of things to come, where we can see some different dynamics, like maybe Emma and Zelena, see more of David and Killian, see Snow and Regina working together, maybe even see Henry working with any of the above.  and if they do it right, it should also open the door to be more inclusive of Belle. (Sorry, this last part should be on the Season 6 thread).

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    • I also really liked how the hotel Mr Gold was staying in was called "Hotel d'Or", literally translating to "Hotel of Gold". Both the meaning and the language used make it the most perfect hotel in the world for Mr Gold and Belle French XD

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:

      -It felt more like the beginning of season six than the end of season 5. While they could have been neatly tying up Camelot (seriously where was Guinevere. Is she still cursed), freeing the Lost Souls and actually acknowledging and talking about Emma and Killian's trauma, they simply got in with the season 6 plot to leave it on a cliffhanger.

      Gwen left with the Camelotians. You can see her (played by an uncredited extra) hugging David before she goes through the portal. And this show almost always starts setting up the next arc at the end of the previous arc. And they always end the season on a cliffhanger. Also, I'm guessing your a CaptainSwan fan, and this season was very CaptainSwan heavy (basically 5A was save Emma and 5B was save Hook), so expect them to take somewhat of a backseat to Regina, Zelena, Snow, and David next season for balance purposes.

      I'll rewatch with eagle eyes for Gwen. I would have liked at least for her to have the sand-magic taken off her, to hear that her husband is slightly less of an asshat now and to ride off into the sunset with Lancelot. Or something.

      Yes season 5 was very CS heavy (although the others got a lot of focus as well). But it was basically 20 episodes of angst with no payoff. No sitting down and talking about it. After everything they were through, I would have at least liked some evidence of them starting their future.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      As I got very sidetracked the last time, I'll try to restate my beefs with this episode:

      -Snow blaming herself for "helping bring the EQ into the world." I know it's Snow's personality-hell I would be prone to doing that-but it was the fact that no one denied it. Snow did not birth the EQ, she was an innocent victim manipulated by Cora. If anyone brought the EQ into the world, the blame should fall on Cora, Rumple and Regina, not Snow.

      Snow accepts partial blame and I'll agree that if I were her, I wouldn't, but even Regina said it was her own fault because she could have forgiven I don't think anyone can change Snow's mind.

      -The EQ being separated from Regina. My problem with this is that any blame for Regina's past actions (or anyone the EQ hurts this season) will now fall on the EQ not her (despite the fact that Regina and the EQ are the same person). I know, wait until season 6, but I still have low expectations. That and you can't just erase all the dark parts of yourself to avoid dealing with (well-deserved) karma. If you have to physically remove and kill you bad parts to make sure you aren't tempted by them well what does that say about you?

      Having low expectations after the writers spent 4b confusing words and poorly defining darkness is cool, but I'm sure the lesson they'll get at is that there are no shortcuts.

      -Emma being Regina's punching bag. Emma had just got her boyfriend back after losing him twice and Regina threatened him again. Regina stood in front of the woman who was a former Dark One and told her she doesn't understand darkness (she does Regina but obviously no pain compares to yours). And then there was unfairly criticising her ability to find people-"I won't hold my breath"-completely rude and uncalled for. Why Regina felt the need to belittle Emma's talent is beyond me.

      I can see why, but as I tend to scour the realms it's generally CS fans that think that while mostly everyone else sees it as alright. Interesting anecdotal talk. Regina clarified that Emma wasn't consumed by the darkness like she was, which is true. Emma respects brutal honesty. It's not like Emma and Hook are one person that have to get offended for both. It's not like Emma would sit there while Regina tortures Hook. That's a punching bag. Regina saying that she wanted to hurt Hook but knew she wouldn't isn't some threat to go threatening Regina about. You don't calm down a person that's on edge by making them angry and Emma knows that.

      I also find that people should see that Regina isn't really belittling people to be rude, but that's just a defense mechanism. When Regina coments on David's vocabulary or Snow's intelligence, it's okay. But as soon as Regina talks about Emma or Hook, there are some fans that cry foul. Regina snarks at everyone, except Henry. I'll admit that sometimes it is overplayed though.

      -And on that point, Regina's "I keep suffering." Know who else suffers? Emma Swan, who in the past six weeks alone became the Dark One and lost her boyfriend twice. Killian Jones, who (unwillingly) became the Dark One, died, was tortured and mauled and lost his brother and girlfriend and found out that his ex was currently residing in eternal torment. Snow, who was disowned, hunted like an animal and terrorised and yet she never stopped doing good just because she was suffering.  Yet did either of them sit and say "Well why should I do good, I keep suffering?" No they didn't. It's called life, Regina, suck it up.

      And Regina never said that noone else suffers. It was a nice inlook at what she was feeling. She's pretty much saying that being evil loses those you love, but being good leads to suffering, so is there any benefit to be good? And in that same convo she chose that she'd choose family and being good over giving into evil.

      -Henry criticising Emma. "You thought she was going to go all Evil Queen again." "I'm sorry I should have trusted Regina." Given Regina's past history, it was completely reasonabe for Emma not to trust her.

      Well, Regina lost Robin like twice and she didn't go evil then, so why now?

      -Henry's "I want to destroy magic" quest. You would think he'd have learned by now that magic is not the problem it's the person using it.

      -The Captain Swan kiss. I know how much of a big thing it was for Emma to be able to say 'I love you', walls down and not when they are in imminent danger. But after 20 episodes of the going through metaphorical and literal hell, I would have expected a "Let's go home" and a shot of them moving into their new house at least.

      But secretly they are in imminent danger, lol.

      -It felt more like the beginning of season six than the end of season 5. While they could have been neatly tying up Camelot (seriously where was Guinevere. Is she still cursed), freeing the Lost Souls and actually acknowledging and talking about Emma and Killian's trauma, they simply got in with the season 6 plot to leave it on a cliffhanger.

      Comments are in bold. I'd pretty much agree with it all, but each portion of the fandom have glass half full and glass half empty thoughts. Hopefully, I try to say, "Why not both?"

      I do agree totally with the fact that the finale was almost a premiere. I also think that you probably can tell that two different set of writers wrote the two episodes. So, likely that's one of the reasons we some things differently.

      Regina's monologue to me was great, but coupled with the next episode it seemed to underplay or take away from what it could have been, but then the last episode was written by A & E.

      I, as a CSer, get mad when Regina makes fun of Snow, David and Robin (and others) as well as Emma and Hook. I don't see it as a defense mechanism.

      It's the fact that Emma lost Killian twice this season and Regina not only said she wanted to kill him but described it. It felt like this; imagine Robin and Hook both were hit by a car. Hook lives and Robin dies. Then Regina says to Emma "I want to hit Hook with a car!" (Little unrealistic, but you get me?)

      When were the other two times she lost Robin? 

      Yeah but I mean not knowing they are in imminent danger.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Other times she lost (or was in imminent danger of losing) Robin were in SEason 4, while Robin was in NYC, and 5x2, when Robin took the blow meant to kill Regina. There might have been others as well.

      As for Regina expressing her desire to rip out Killians throat, I think it was a fair exposition. She was expressing a whole lot of frustration that life just kicked her in the gut. I can tell you that there are times where something happens and I just want to punch someone, even though I know it's wrong.

      Regina is hurting, and hurting bad. She generally hides her hurt, because she is a somewhat private character. But she's learning to open up to her friends more (a healthy sign, and a good message to project). Emma didn't judge Regina for her feelings. She listened, and tried to provide encouragement where she could.  Overall, I thought that scene was powerful in a positive way.

      as for Regina snarking at Emma, David, Killian, or anyone else. I agree that I don't see it necessarily as a defense mechanism. It's really just who she is, and it's her primary mode of expression.  She's learned others, and uses them more, but the snark is still her default setting. "You'd think the pirate with a rum problem would cut my sister a little slack" is a perfect example of her communication style under stress. (and as a side comment, Zelena has the same trait, so it must be something genetic with the Mills women).

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Other times she lost (or was in imminent danger of losing) Robin were in SEason 4, while Robin was in NYC, and 5x2, when Robin took the blow meant to kill Regina. There might have been others as well.

      As for Regina expressing her desire to rip out Killians throat, I think it was a fair exposition. She was expressing a whole lot of frustration that life just kicked her in the gut. I can tell you that there are times where something happens and I just want to punch someone, even though I know it's wrong.

      Regina is hurting, and hurting bad. She generally hides her hurt, because she is a somewhat private character. But she's learning to open up to her friends more (a healthy sign, and a good message to project). Emma didn't judge Regina for her feelings. She listened, and tried to provide encouragement where she could.  Overall, I thought that scene was powerful in a positive way.

      as for Regina snarking at Emma, David, Killian, or anyone else. I agree that I don't see it necessarily as a defense mechanism. It's really just who she is, and it's her primary mode of expression.  She's learned others, and uses them more, but the snark is still her default setting. "You'd think the pirate with a rum problem would cut my sister a little slack" is a perfect example of her communication style under stress. (and as a side comment, Zelena has the same trait, so it must be something genetic with the Mills women).

      Ohhh right okay. When Robin was in NYC she was planning on rewriting reality anyways and in Camelot she manipulated Emma into saving him "I've lost love before and I won't again."

      Yes I have had times when I've been angry. However, I have never said to someone that I wish to murder their significant other because they were alive and mine wasn't. 

      Sorry I just find Regina's snark as plain rude, especially with that remark about Killian's rum habit but this is not the place for that.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Overall, an okay episode!  I really like that they try to correct multiple mistakes they use to do. (This goes for all of the 5b). At the finale, they tried to connect , darkeness as something between force and creature , with the evil road being something between free will and author staff, which is not clear , at least for the last seasons. I have problems with what are the limits of someone's darker self, as the series expand but my mayor problem  is that now word-crossing is a 2 minutes job, while the whole point of the series was that it's something that happens really rarely.

      Bonus: With most of the known western Europian fairytales being introduced, I have to say that I spotted multiple arabian ("Agrabah" )characters on the LoUS. We may be surprised , since i think i recall them saying about a world... 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      I think Hyde's motivation could come from a few sources, all of which are somewhat benign.

      One is obviously having a place where these untold stories can be told, probably harmless depending on the story, but also seemingly altruistic.

      Hyde could also be trying to hide Jeckyll as the more sinister of the 2 personalities.  Let's face it, it was Jekyll that developed the serum that physically split the 2, it was likely Jekyll that developed the serum that allows for switching from one personality to the other. And he may have other potions that have similarly non-beneficial effects. From a steam-punk potion perspective, Jekyll may very well rival Rumple or Regina in the potions department.

      Also, it was Hyde, not Jeckyll, that stated (to David and Company) that keeping things locked up was not the problem, it's when you open the gate that trouble starts. 

      Hyde is dark and imposing. But he may not be the villain. time will tell.

      I was thinking the exact same thing, while watching the finale!

      Mr. Hyde being the more benign personality, would actually be a brilliant twist. Many people forget that Dr. Jekyll was not the hero, in the original story. He created the serum to indulge, in his worst fantasies without consequences. It was only when Mr. Hyde developed into a full-blown sociopath, that the "good" doctor wanted to put an end to him. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:

      Many people forget that Dr. Jekyll was not the hero, in the original story. He created the serum to indulge, in his worst fantasies without consequences. It was only when Mr. Hyde developed into a full-blown sociopath, that the "good" doctor wanted to put an end to him. 

      Some people say (and I agree) that there really was no Mr Hyde, and that was just a name Jekyll created for when he transformed. I like to think that the serum started to make it so he transformed whenever his good or bad side was dominant, and the reason he started randomly turning into Mr Hyde was because he had become a bad person. Even as Jekyll he had little remorse for his actions as Hyde or the fact that he had given control to his dark side, until he started randomly transforming and was worried he'd get caught.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Alexalaz wrote:
      Overall, an okay episode!  I really like that they try to correct multiple mistakes they use to do. (This goes for all of the 5b). At the finale, they tried to connect , darkeness as something between force and creature , with the evil road being something between free will and author staff, which is not clear , at least for the last seasons. I have problems with what are the limits of someone's darker self, as the series expand but my mayor problem  is that now word-crossing is a 2 minutes job, while the whole point of the series was that it's something that happens really rarely.

      Bonus: With most of the known western Europian fairytales being introduced, I have to say that I spotted multiple arabian ("Agrabah" )characters on the LoUS. We may be surprised , since i think i recall them saying about a world... 

      I don't think they ever intended for world crossing to be difficult. Getting to the LWM is supposted to be difficult (and it is). Going from magic realm to magic realm is a bit tricky, but you have a lot of options, including going through a magic door, using a magic item like a hat or silver slippers designed for realm travel, use a magic bean, use a magical weather event like a cyclone, or use a creature that can travel across realms like a mermaid or The White Rabbit. Sure we didn't see as much people traveling across realms in the first seasons flashbacks, but that is because the story had to introduce the methods, and you wouldn't want to do all of those in one episode.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Alexalaz wrote:
      Overall, an okay episode!  I really like that they try to correct multiple mistakes they use to do. (This goes for all of the 5b). At the finale, they tried to connect , darkeness as something between force and creature , with the evil road being something between free will and author staff, which is not clear , at least for the last seasons. I have problems with what are the limits of someone's darker self, as the series expand but my mayor problem  is that now word-crossing is a 2 minutes job, while the whole point of the series was that it's something that happens really rarely.

      Bonus: With most of the known western Europian fairytales being introduced, I have to say that I spotted multiple arabian ("Agrabah" )characters on the LoUS. We may be surprised , since i think i recall them saying about a world... 

      I don't think they ever intended for world crossing to be difficult. Getting to the LWM is supposted to be difficult (and it is). Going from magic realm to magic realm is a bit tricky, but you have a lot of options, including going through a magic door, using a magic item like a hat or silver slippers designed for realm travel, use a magic bean, use a magical weather event like a cyclone, or use a creature that can travel across realms like a mermaid or The White Rabbit. Sure we didn't see as much people traveling across realms in the first seasons flashbacks, but that is because the story had to introduce the methods, and you wouldn't want to do all of those in one episode.

      World-crossing really isn't the problem. Silver Slippers were rare, the hat was a rare and limited thing, the creatures were limited as well. The issue was when magic beans went from rare to "Oh, look I found another magic bean." Sure the Dark One isn't omniscient, but come on. The other portals seem to be controlled randomly or by the Merlin wand which I say is okay, but Rumple knew of the Apprentice and even if he didn't want one way travel, the wand works in both lands. There's no way the Apprentice is stronger than the Dark One.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      World-crossing really isn't the problem. Silver Slippers were rare, the hat was a rare and limited thing, the creatures were limited as well. The issue was when magic beans went from rare to "Oh, look I found another magic bean." Sure the Dark One isn't omniscient, but come on. The other portals seem to be controlled randomly or by the Merlin wand which I say is okay, but Rumple knew of the Apprentice and even if he didn't want one way travel, the wand works in both lands. There's no way the Apprentice is stronger than the Dark One.

      Agreed regarding the ability to travel between magical realms (and I assume that the LUS is a magical realm). Rumple easily travelled from the LWC to the EF, which we saw in season 2. Zelena was able to easily travel between Oz and the EF, as was Mulan and Ruby.  Traveling to between a magical and non-magical realm is limted, as the White Rabbit (and I assume Mermaids) are unable to cross into the Non-magical realm. Jefferson also stated that his hat had that same limitation.  So Travel to the LWM generally requires either a Bean, the Apprentices wand,or getting to Storybrooke via other routes, then crossing the town line.

      And to digress just a moment, we need to remember that Rumple was not wanting to JUST get to the LWM.  He wanted to get there and be in a position to have his magic available. The bean did not provide that, and Rumple did not have the wand. and while the Apprentice is not as powerful as Rumple, he was (imo) powerful enough to prevent him from getting the wand.

      I would suggest that futher discussion on realm travelling deserves it's own thread.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Glad Colin ditched his eyeliner. Looks WAY better without that. Helen's a lucky lady.

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
        Preparing Editor Spell
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