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    • Kinda boring this week. 5x12 and 5x13 were better


      -Flashback was kinda pointless but I bet Rumple's baby will be relevant in Season 6

      -The titlecard was so creepy....

      -Daniel :')

      -Hades is a piece of art, isn't he?

      -Poor Milah :0 I was ready to see her going to Olympus

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    • This episode was so heartwarming and heartbreaking on so many levels!!!

      -Gold being forced to banish Milah

      -The deal haunting him

      -Closure for Daniel

      -The horse and Regina

      -Emma and Hook reuniting

      -Milah meeting Hook (excellent way to fill a gap as to how they met)

      -Cruella and Regina

      -The interaction between Milah and Emma

      -Gold working for Hades (at this rate, Hades has become the most annoying villain on OUAT to me so far)

      -The flashback

      -Emilie de Ravin's pregnancy being canon in the show (yes, I'm aware she gave birth already)

      -Milah being a crossing guard for dead people.

      What did I miss?

      I feel like this season keeps getting better and better.

      Also, excited to find out how Emma, Snow, and Regina will be able to leave. (and it said Snow White, keeping the continuity between Labor of Love and this episode, and how Snow decided to stop being MMB.

      Also, I agree with 8Rob. I thought Milah was going to Olympus.

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    • Amazing-ish, so let's break it down.

      Flashbacks:

      They were okay with a few key interests, like Milah meeting Hook and Rumple's deal and being loop-holey. Now, Rumple got a bit wore with promising a second-born child and that was a terrible move, but then we get context on why Rumple did what he did with Cora (He would totally screw Cora over!). Dark One Rumple is always good to see.

      Present Day:

      Rumple was a jerk, but he REGRETTED his decision, so there's one baby step. Poor Milah, but I hope they will find someway to save her, or Rumple practically overkilled her. Maybe Rumple will try to fish her out. Hades has officially got me to absolutely despise him. You can screw over Hook, but getting Cora was pushing, but now Rumple. You, sir, crossed a line! I guess Zelena was Regina's Regina and now Hades is Rumple's Rumple.

      Daniel Colter.....I guess that's his FTL name, lol. Make sense.

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    • Decent episode. Like how they are dealing with so many things. Milah and how she met Hook, and also what pushed her away from Rumple; as well as Regina realizing Daniel got closure and moved on. Also, Daniel got a last name! And finally confirmation that Rumbelle baby is a thing. Also, love that Underbrooke is canon.

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    • I guess the writers felt that as a mother, Milah should be punished for leaving her family.  You know . . . sexist politics.

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    • CTrent29 wrote:
      I guess the writers felt that as a mother, Milah should be punished for leaving her family.  You know . . . sexist politics.

      They showed it in a negative light. They were showing how both Rumple and Milah were bad parents. Not sexist at all.

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    • CTrent29 wrote:
      I guess the writers felt that as a mother, Milah should be punished for leaving her family.  You know . . . sexist politics.


      That's ridiculous to say that because it has nothing to do with the ep. Eskaver is right.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Hades has officially got me to absolutely despise him. You can screw over Hook, but getting Cora was pushing, but now Rumple. You, sir, crossed a line!

      YES! I said that I hated Hades and thought he was annoying, and one of the people with me said that that means the actor is good.

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    • ONCEFanandHappyHippo wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:

      Hades has officially got me to absolutely despise him. You can screw over Hook, but getting Cora was pushing, but now Rumple. You, sir, crossed a line!

      YES! I said that I hated Hades and thought he was annoying, and one of the people with me said that that means the actor is good.

      I'm borderline pushing it into writing, but I won't. I tend to like villains alot but that "pull of the rug".

      I do have some down points. I guess he's not omniscient and I can let it slides, but they got Hook easily and Hades doesn't seem to be trying hard to stop them. Sort of casually strolling along, yet getting the upperhand somehow. I hate that!

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    • Guys, what's with the horse? Rocianante? (Hope so because I almost laughed because it seemed so random)

      And what was with the "magic is different here"? Emma used magic fine, Rumple used magic fine, as did Cora. So, Regina had random confidence issues or something?

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    • This ep was awesom and I love how they made it seem like Rumple was throwing in with Hades but wasn't really. Hope things work out for him.

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    • Daniel Colter. Perfect surname for a stableboy.lol

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      And what was with the "magic is different here"? Emma used magic fine, Rumple used magic fine, as did Cora. So, Regina had random confidence issues or something?

      It's like when they broke the Curse in 1x22

      They said something like "magic is unpredictable here" but nothing happened. It worked perfectly fine.


      Only Regina lost it for a couple of episodes but she got it back using Cora's spellbook

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      And what was with the "magic is different here"? Emma used magic fine, Rumple used magic fine, as did Cora. So, Regina had random confidence issues or something?
      It's like when they broke the Curse in 1x22

      They said something like "magic is unpredictable here" but nothing happened. It worked perfectly fine.


      Only Regina lost it for a couple of episodes but she got it back using Cora's spellbook

      Yeah, but Regina was just fine.....apparently. I mean no one ever mentioned magic being off for her. Like when did she ever try (and fail) and why would she think that after Emma was totally fine?

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    • Am I the only one who's annoyed that Emma and Snow didn't remember that Emma's heart can't be removed? Its like they forgot all about their battle with Cora.

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    • MyPretties wrote:
      Am I the only one who's annoyed that Emma and Snow didn't remember that Emma's heart can't be removed? Its like they forgot all about their battle with Cora.

      Nothing says Emma's heart can't be removed, just that Emma's magic stopped Cora. I'm certain that Emma thought she could do what Henry did and have it removed by being willing.

      Fans conflate headcanon and theories with facts. Emma realized that something stopped Cora, but nothing said that her heart couldn't be removed and there's no reason for Emma to assume that.

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    • I loved seeing how Hook and Milah met in the flashback.

      Finding out there's a Baby Rumpelle on the way is a bit...I don't know. I was hoping they'd leave that alone. But cest la vie.

      I really enjoy Cruella in all her scenes. Glad she'll be around for a bit.

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    • One good part: Cruella wearing possibly Bambi's mother, XD

      Anyhow, she's Mayor now...for reasons and she's trying to be freed. Hades really knows how to hire them: Always rebelling.

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    • Good episode. Although if Cruella's trying to leave, why is she mayor? I'd think hades'd be smarter than that, unless he knows what she's up to, and she's part of his plan. 

      Whatever did happen to Cora, anyway?

      And did they forget that the child of true love cannot have their heart ripped out?

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    • Hydrasaur wrote:
      Good episode. Although if Cruella's trying to leave, why is she mayor? I'd think hades'd be smarter than that, unless he knows what she's up to, and she's part of his plan. 

      Whatever did happen to Cora, anyway?

      And did they forget that the child of true love cannot have their heart ripped out?

      Easy answers.

      1) Hades doesn;t pick them good.

      2) Cora is off delivering flour forever.

      3) They didn't say that.

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    • Quick note: Hades really gets "turned on" whenever he's crushing others' hope.

      (Yes, I went there. Look at everytime he gets hot-headed and what's going on. )

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Hydrasaur wrote:
      Good episode. Although if Cruella's trying to leave, why is she mayor? I'd think hades'd be smarter than that, unless he knows what she's up to, and she's part of his plan. 

      Whatever did happen to Cora, anyway?

      And did they forget that the child of true love cannot have their heart ripped out?

      Easy answers.

      1) Hades doesn;t pick them good.

      2) Cora is off delivering flour forever.

      3) They didn't say that.

      Then what did they say about it? Why couldn't Cora rip out Emma's heart?

      Also,  I take issue with the fact that OUAT always makes the villain want the new baby. First, Zelena wanted baby Neal, then Emma wanted Baby Hood (albiet to save the baby from what she was planning, but still), and now Hades wants Rumple's baby?

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Kinda boring this week. 5x12 and 5x13 were better

      Agreed.... I was very underwhelmed by this episode, as well. 

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    • Also, I kinda wish Milah had gotten to meet her grandson...

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    • Hydrasaur wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Hydrasaur wrote:
      Good episode. Although if Cruella's trying to leave, why is she mayor? I'd think hades'd be smarter than that, unless he knows what she's up to, and she's part of his plan. 

      Whatever did happen to Cora, anyway?

      And did they forget that the child of true love cannot have their heart ripped out?

      Easy answers.

      1) Hades doesn;t pick them good.

      2) Cora is off delivering flour forever.

      3) They didn't say that.

      Then what did they say about it? Why couldn't Cora rip out Emma's heart?

      Also,  I take issue with the fact that OUAT always makes the villain want the new baby. First, Zelena wanted baby Neal, then Emma wanted Baby Hood (albiet to save the baby from what she was planning, but still), and now Hades wants Rumple's baby?

      They never said why her heart couldn't be ripped out as far as I know. It's definitely not due to true love because Aurora is a child of TL (oooh, got that obscure proof for you!).

      That's because all the people are having babies and babies are undeniably innocent, so evil has to evil-it-up.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Hydrasaur wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Hydrasaur wrote:
      Good episode. Although if Cruella's trying to leave, why is she mayor? I'd think hades'd be smarter than that, unless he knows what she's up to, and she's part of his plan. 

      Whatever did happen to Cora, anyway?

      And did they forget that the child of true love cannot have their heart ripped out?

      Easy answers.

      1) Hades doesn;t pick them good.

      2) Cora is off delivering flour forever.

      3) They didn't say that.

      Then what did they say about it? Why couldn't Cora rip out Emma's heart?

      Also,  I take issue with the fact that OUAT always makes the villain want the new baby. First, Zelena wanted baby Neal, then Emma wanted Baby Hood (albiet to save the baby from what she was planning, but still), and now Hades wants Rumple's baby?

      They never said why her heart couldn't be ripped out as far as I know. It's definitely not due to true love because Aurora is a child of TL (oooh, got that obscure proof for you!).

      That's because all the people are having babies and babies are undeniably innocent, so evil has to evil-it-up.

      I thought it was b/c her name was on a headstone.

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    • DarlingDavies wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      Hydrasaur wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Hydrasaur wrote:
      Good episode. Although if Cruella's trying to leave, why is she mayor? I'd think hades'd be smarter than that, unless he knows what she's up to, and she's part of his plan. 

      Whatever did happen to Cora, anyway?

      And did they forget that the child of true love cannot have their heart ripped out?

      Easy answers.
      1) Hades doesn;t pick them good.

      2) Cora is off delivering flour forever.

      3) They didn't say that.

      Then what did they say about it? Why couldn't Cora rip out Emma's heart?

      Also,  I take issue with the fact that OUAT always makes the villain want the new baby. First, Zelena wanted baby Neal, then Emma wanted Baby Hood (albiet to save the baby from what she was planning, but still), and now Hades wants Rumple's baby?

      They never said why her heart couldn't be ripped out as far as I know. It's definitely not due to true love because Aurora is a child of TL (oooh, got that obscure proof for you!).

      That's because all the people are having babies and babies are undeniably innocent, so evil has to evil-it-up.

      I thought it was b/c her name was on a headstone.

      Yes, this episode she couldn't have her heart removed because it's protected I guess by Hades.

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    • DarlingDavies wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      Hydrasaur wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Hydrasaur wrote:
      Good episode. Although if Cruella's trying to leave, why is she mayor? I'd think hades'd be smarter than that, unless he knows what she's up to, and she's part of his plan. 

      Whatever did happen to Cora, anyway?

      And did they forget that the child of true love cannot have their heart ripped out?

      Easy answers.
      1) Hades doesn;t pick them good.

      2) Cora is off delivering flour forever.

      3) They didn't say that.

      Then what did they say about it? Why couldn't Cora rip out Emma's heart?

      Also,  I take issue with the fact that OUAT always makes the villain want the new baby. First, Zelena wanted baby Neal, then Emma wanted Baby Hood (albiet to save the baby from what she was planning, but still), and now Hades wants Rumple's baby?

      They never said why her heart couldn't be ripped out as far as I know. It's definitely not due to true love because Aurora is a child of TL (oooh, got that obscure proof for you!).

      That's because all the people are having babies and babies are undeniably innocent, so evil has to evil-it-up.

      I thought it was b/c her name was on a headstone.

      Honestly, sometimes they just get so vague with continuity.

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    • MyPretties wrote:
      Am I the only one who's annoyed that Emma and Snow didn't remember that Emma's heart can't be removed? Its like they forgot all about their battle with Cora.

      I was half expecting Hook to remind everyone, that Emma's heart could not be removed.

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    • All this time I'd thought Milah was so unfair to Rumple... Now I realize that he destroyed her reputation by hobbling himself, shirked all his duties to play with Bae, forcing her to practically be their house slave, signed, sealed and delivered her reproductive fate and never even cared about her opinion on the matter. And even after all that, not only did he brutally murder her in cold blood, he then had the NERVE, THE NERVE to prevent her from ever seeing her son again? I HOPE HE DIES.

      I also really loved Regina's side-quest. Not only did we get a subtle hint that Bambi exists in the EF (and him and his mom are somehow famous there), but also that Cruella replaces Man in Bambi's story as his mom's killer. (How else would she have that fur in Underbrooke, which is now a canon term?) Love that final Stable Queen scene and Daniel's last name (Colter) being revealed. And was it me, or was the horse that Regina healed Rocinante? And why didn't she recognize him?

      And last point, I promise. The snake that bit Bae was an Atlantean snake. Could we possibly see Kida and Milo sometime soon? I hope so. Atlantis: The Lost Empire is an underrated gem in the Disney Canon. And Rumple killed that Healer guy when he was messing around with Cora... Which is about a century after he became the Dark One. At the very least, it was enough decades for the Healer to either be dead or extremely old... Which he's NOT. What gives, people?

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    • That's a tad harsh isn't it?

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      That's a tad harsh isn't it?

      A tad harsh? Rumple basically dictated Milah's entire life for her based on his own selfish, stupid reasons. The same crap he's pulling with Belle, and that he most likely would've pulled with Cora. (Who, thankfully, flipped the script on HIM instead.) And then he had the nerve to tell her "Oh, you'll see our son again and he will forgive you." Only to banish her to OBLIVION. FOREVER. There's no coming back from the kind of scum that he is.

      I love Bobby Carlyle and I wish him much success. But Rumple? HE NEEDS TO GO.

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    • I realize that many think otherwise, but I must admit that I found this episode a lot more interesting than "Labor of Love"'.

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    • I was totally crazy with this week episode, much better than last week. The Milah twist and the baby twist were awesome. They fit Emilie's pregnant really fine this season. I'm glad that OUAT could make me this level of craziness again after so much disappointment.

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    • I thought for sure the horse Regina healed was Rocinante. Yeah, why did she not recognize him? 

      I didn't figure out until the moment Hades showed Belle in the crystal ball that she was pregnant. I was soo confused about what Mr. Gold was doing in the first scene with the crystal ball, but now it makes sense that he was actually looking for Neal. I saw the expression on his face when Emma told Milah that Neal was already in a better place. I guess Mr. Gold expected Neal to be in the Underworld after all? 

      Probably the most gut wretching moment to watch was Mr. Gold hurling Milah into the river of lost souls. What. The. F. ;__; Now she'll never be reunited with her son. Oh gosh. And the way Mr. Gold cried Milah's name afterwards. Part of me thought, "great, here he goes again playacting so no one will suspect him of any wrongdoing". At the same time, I thought I saw genuine remorse for what he did. And then the ending with Hades. Wow. He made Gold do that just to toy with him further. 

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    • I have to agree with Edward

      Rumple crossed the line so hard in this episode

      Even in the afterlife, he is still hurting his son by denying him to make amends with his mother

      That's too much.

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      I have to agree with Edward

      Rumple crossed the line so hard in this episode

      Even in the afterlife, he is still hurting his son by denying him to make amends with his mother

      That's too much.

      I have been more and more done with Rumple since "Kansas". I cannot anymore...

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    • Why "kansas?"

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      Why "kansas?"

      Because once again, his stupid, selfish self-indulgence ruined everything. He stabbed a defenseless Zelena (and didn't even succeed in killing her, let's remember!), which caused the time portal to open, which took Hook and Emma to the past, where they brought both Elsa and Zelena back to the present. He directly caused the cluster***k that was Ingrid's arc. Then, his selfishness was again on full display during 4A with the sorcerer's hat crap. Then came 4B, and then 5A and now 5B. God, what I wouldn't give for a Sleeping Curse.

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    • Hydrasaur wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Hydrasaur wrote:
      Good episode. Although if Cruella's trying to leave, why is she mayor? I'd think hades'd be smarter than that, unless he knows what she's up to, and she's part of his plan. 

      Whatever did happen to Cora, anyway?

      And did they forget that the child of true love cannot have their heart ripped out?

      Easy answers.

      1) Hades doesn;t pick them good.

      2) Cora is off delivering flour forever.

      3) They didn't say that.

      Then what did they say about it? Why couldn't Cora rip out Emma's heart?

      Also,  I take issue with the fact that OUAT always makes the villain want the new baby. First, Zelena wanted baby Neal, then Emma wanted Baby Hood (albiet to save the baby from what she was planning, but still), and now Hades wants Rumple's baby?

      To quote Regina: The number of spells requireing baby parts would shock you. XD

      In all seriousness though, stealing babies/children is kind of a fairy tale staple.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      All this time I'd thought Milah was so unfair to Rumple... Now I realize that he destroyed her reputation by hobbling himself, shirked all his duties to play with Bae, forcing her to practically be their house slave, signed, sealed and delivered her reproductive fate and never even cared about her opinion on the matter. And even after all that, not only did he brutally murder her in cold blood, he then had the NERVE, THE NERVE to prevent her from ever seeing her son again? I HOPE HE DIES. Agree that they made Milah look not as terrible in this episode.

      I also really loved Regina's side-quest. Not only did we get a subtle hint that Bambi exists in the EF (and him and his mom are somehow famous there), but also that Cruella replaces Man in Bambi's story as his mom's killer. (How else would she have that fur in Underbrooke, which is now a canon term?) Don't forget Cruella lived for a while in the LWM, so she could have learned of classic stories, especially ones popularized by Disney. Love that final Stable Queen scene and Daniel's last name (Colter) being revealed. And was it me, or was the horse that Regina healed Rocinante? And why didn't she recognize him? I thought it would have been cool if the horse was Rocinante, but I think it looked different. Besides, Regina would have recognized her favorite horse, no?

      And last point, I promise. The snake that bit Bae was an Atlantean snake. Could we possibly see Kida and Milo sometime soon? Probably not, but you never know. They could also do an Atlantis that is not Disney's Atlantis. Time will tell. I hope so. Atlantis: The Lost Empire is an underrated gem in the Disney Canon. And Rumple killed that Healer guy when he was messing around with Cora... Which is about a century after he became the Dark One. At the very least, it was enough decades for the Healer to either be dead or extremely old... Which he's NOT. What gives, people? The Healer is a magic user. Like most of the other magic users on this show, he has ways to stop or slow the aging process.

      Answers in bold.

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    • I though the episode was a bit lacklustre. I enjoyed the small scenes more than the main plot but all up it was either boring or enraging.

      Liked

      • Even if it is only his voice, Robbie Kay is still my favourite part.
      • The Emma/Rumple/Milah scene was gold. When Milah puts it like that, it does seem weird.
      • Cruella is mayor and is wearing probably Bambi's mum's coat which was hilarious. Also "Underbrooke" is canon now.
      • I'm glad Daniel got closure (and a last name) and he is in a better place. I thought he was there because after being pulled from Underbrooke as a Frankenstein's monster, he and Regina made amends in the stables before disintegrating.
      • I really hope the horse was Rocianante. Even animals have unfinished business (maybe the deer the huntsman shot in S1? XD)
      • Nice seeing how Milah met Hook. It is also uncommon to see a pre-darkone!Rumple flashback.

      Disliked

      • Just when I thought I couldn't hate Rumple more than I do, he surpasses. Killing Milah the first time was too far (she deserved something but not death) and then he kills her again before she gets to make amends with her son at Olympus. Just wow.
      • I am 50-50 on Hades. I like the businessman/laidback version but he isn't as entertaining of a villain as others who came before him (he is 100% better than Arthur, Dark Swan and Dark Hook though).
      • I was so pissed that they made Rumbelle baby canon. The relationship is so toxic by now and adding a baby to it is even worse. Belle just needs to run far away.
      • Still don't care about Captainswan.
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    • brilliant episode!

      Loved it on so many levels:

      Liked:

      • Mila and Emma's moments discussing Bay. Beauitiful.
      • Cruella and Regina's scene. I love Cruella and love the fact she has Bambi's mothers fur coat. Genius line. 
      • I am glad we got closure on Daniel and the sense with Regina saying good bye was lovely.
      • The whole Hades getting Rumble's contract and forcing him to work for him was great. 
      • The explanation to the deal Rumpe made with Cora was interesting, nice to see it went back further then I anticipated. 
      • It was nice to see how Hook met Mila and it was kinda romantic.
      • Milah killed by Rumple. Wow. Terrible scene but it was so brilliantly played. That will defo pull rumples story in a different dirrection. Plus it gives us a whole new reason to hate him. Poor Milah too, she really has had the most terrible time of any character really. 

      Disliked:

      • The horse! What was that about? I dont think it was Regina's horse but i guess it had to be otherwise why show it at all?
      • Robbie Kay! Even just his voice irritates me. I like the actor in other things he has done but him as Peter Pan annoys me soooooo much. 
      • What the hell was wrong with Regina's magic? I mean every one else's magic worked perfectly. I mean Emma even learned her teleportation magic there. 
      • Please please give Robin Hood something to do. I actualy thought he may have had a bit of an adventure with Henry in the previous episode when they went to the town hall. But he has not even fired once from his bow, not used his skills as a thief and not realy showed any level of bravery. I mean is he just there as arm candy for Regina or what? I really hope they are leading for him to have a major roe later on but i hope that occurs soon.
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    • I thought Regina's subplots were the weakest part, just... very random. The flashbacks continue to amaze me for how surprisingly useful they are, not only we see more of Milah's reasons, how she meets Hook, why she does what she does, but also the origin for Rumple's deals (even though it's a dark one's thing). Milah was still a bitch though, she wants Rumple to kill the healer, why doesn't she do it herself if her husband is a coward? I'm evil to say this, but I'm glad she is damned forever. The Emma heart thing is a bit of a plothole but it can be resolved since she wanted Regina to take it. The pregancy was predictable but they turned it into an interesting twist, now Rumple has new reasons to do evil, also ironic reasons.

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    • Should Regina Emma and Snow's status be deceased now?

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    • 123a123 wrote:
      Should Regina Emma and Snow's status be deceased now?

      That is not up for debate here. And no, they aren't dead, just trapped.

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    • Ok, I enjoyed the episode. Maybe not the strongest of the season, but still good none-the-less.

      Likes:

      • As others have pointed out, Cruella and Regina's scene. Cruella wearing Bambi's Mother (Bambi is now canon to Once), and the christening of Underbrooke.
      • The story of how Pre-DO Rumple still managed to screw over his wife and son. Pre-DO Rumple was just a terrible person and a coward.
      • The Horse scene. I don't think that was Regina's horse, but it was a great call back to her days of riding with Daniel, and shows her own compassion for horses. (Even when she was trying to hurt Snow, she only put Snow's horse under a sleeping curse, and didn't kill it).
      • The first meeting of Killian and Milah.
      • Hades is by far the worst villain ever, even out rumpleing Rumple. that whole Deal storyline was pure Gold.
      • Regina finding closure in her relationship with Daniel, and also the explanation of the Tombstones and the rules associated with it.
      • Loved the interaction between Milah and Emma. "So you slept with my son, and are currently seeing my ex-Lover?" (parapharased)  Classic exposition of the crazyness that is Once.
      • The sign over the river as it was going to where Hook was hanging. "Abandon Hope all ye that enter here".  Quite fitting, coming as it does from Dante's Inferno.

      Dislikes

      • Milah getting killed by Rumple, again.  Destroying the boat was typical Rumple, but tossing Milah in the River of Lost Soles. totally uncalled for.
      • Belle being pregnant - I put it here because it's not that I necessarily dislike it, but I am not a huge fan of that twist. Other than it what it does to Rumple's story, which could be interesting.

      Final comments

      • The fact that it is Regina, Snow, and Emma that were chosen for the Headstones. fitting, since Regina was responsible for helping Henry to leave, Snow was responsible for Herc, and Emma is Hook's GF, and therefore the only fitting choice to cover Meg's departure (since Meg was actually helped by Killian, and Killian already has a headstone). It will be interesting to see how this changes things now that the stakes are increased.

      * Regina having magic issues - Emma seems to have no problems, though that could be easily explained away by the type of Magic Emma has. Cora had no problems, but then again Cora is a  resident in the UW, whereas Regina started out as a Visitor. And Rumple does not seem to have problems, to again it could be due to the fact that he's the dark one.  However, I think the magic problems, and the sudden working again, could be conincidental to when the Headstones were completed.

      • As for the inability to rip out Emma's heart, I'm not sure what to think on that. Cora actualy had her hand in Emma's chest, but Emma's latent power was enough to prevent Cora from completing the move, and eventually pushing Cora back. I think there were other factors involved with Regina's inability.
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    • What a great episode! 

      Loving that they're filling plot holes and gaps. 

      It was great to see Milah again and her introduction to Emma was hilarious. 

      Hades is deliciously evil and his scenes with Rumple were pure gold. Also, his whole deal with Rumple is kinda genius and I loved that they brought Cora into it. 

      Regina's closure with Daniel felt a bit forced but I'm ok with it. 

      Cruella? Man, I adore her. Bambi's iconic mother? Oh how I love this show.

      Makes sense that Regina, Snow and Emma are the ones trapped in Underbrooke. Perfect. 

      Last but not least: why watch the children, they're dead anyway" killed me! (pun intended)

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    • As for the horse thing, I think it is just because Regina likes horses. It is one of her established likes, along with apples. Besides it tied into the fact that Daniel was the stable boy, which Regina had just dealt with.

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    • Nice episode.

      • At first I wasn't quite getting the flashback, but the twist made it quite interesting. Also, we established two things: a) Rumple has always been the kind of person to seek the easy way out. b) No wonder Milah was so frustrated with Rumple when she left: he was a public coward, he didn't live up to Milah's (twisted) standards for masculinity, he screwed her over behind her back and… well, the only birth control method they could have was abstinence, which I don't think is good for a marriage (especially because Milah strikes me as a life-loving person in general).
      • Milah's fate saddened me. Really, we saw a more human side of her just in time to see her gone for good. :/
      • Regina only had two scenes but, as usual, totally nailed the episode.
      • The Divine Comedy reference sent me ecstatic.
      • Nice way to work Emilie's pregnancy into the show and making it meaningful to the plot rather than "Hey, Rumbelle get a baby".
      • Yay for continuity all over the place. And also the little nod to early S2 Regina with her problems with magic.
      • I think Regina being totally unable to get into Emma's chest was due to Emma's powers having grown considerably since Cora attempted it.
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    • Who was that woman behind the counter in the diner when Regina came in to talk to Cruella?

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    • TrumpetofTheSwan wrote:
      Who was that woman behind the counter in the diner when Regina came in to talk to Cruella?

      A woman.

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    • Guess I'm the only one who doesn't hate Rumple now.

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      Guess I'm the only one who doesn't hate Rumple now.

      I don't totally hate him. (Gonna make a thread about that and the other characters soon.)

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    • She's dressed like she's greek or something. And it looks like she might wearind a lightning rod pendant. And she apparently works for a diety. Maybe Astrape, Zeus' handmaiden?

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    • TrumpetofTheSwan wrote:
      She's dressed like she's greek or something. And it looks like she might wearind a lightning rod pendant. And she apparently works for a diety. Maybe Astrape, Zeus' handmaiden?

      Or anyone that Zeus slept with......

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    • TrumpetofTheSwan wrote:
      Who was that woman behind the counter in the diner when Regina came in to talk to Cruella?

      Considering she wasn't credited, I don't think she's important.

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    • Still a pretty good episode.

      I liked that Daniel got a last name, honestly that was probably one of the best parts. I also love that Regina still cares so deeply for Daniel. Pretty sure she still loves Daniel more than Emma loves Neal.

      They did the impossible by actually making me feel sorry for Milah. I don't think she deserved that any more than Rumple does, he probably deserves it more.

      Not very happy Belle is pregnant, that really really isn't what that relationship needs right now, but oh well. I'm at least glad they went about it so that it actually connects to the overall plot rather than it being completely random.

      Spinner!Rumple is still a complete idiot... Selling your (even non-existent) child is a horrible idea.

      The only thing I actually didn't like was that this completely discredits the theory that Regina is Rumple's daughter which was always fun to play around with.

      Overall a good episode though. Still love Cruella. Exchange between Milah, Emma, and Rumple was priceless. They're doing a good job of filling it plot-holes and showing characters meeting.

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    • Once19 wrote:
      Still a pretty good episode.

      I liked that Daniel got a last name, honestly that was probably one of the best parts. I also love that Regina still cares so deeply for Daniel. Pretty sure she still loves Daniel more than Emma loves Neal.

      They did the impossible by actually making me feel sorry for Milah. I don't think she deserved that any more than Rumple does, he probably deserves it more.

      Not very happy Belle is pregnant, that really really isn't what that relationship needs right now, but oh well. I'm at least glad they went about it so that it actually connects to the overall plot rather than it being completely random.

      Spinner!Rumple is still a complete idiot... Selling your (even non-existent) child is a horrible idea.

      The only thing I actually didn't like was that this completely discredits the theory that Regina is Rumple's daughter which was always fun to play around with.

      Overall a good episode though. Still love Cruella. Exchange between Milah, Emma, and Rumple was priceless. They're doing a good job of filling it plot-holes and showing characters meeting.

      I dunno. I can't feel sorry for Milah, Hook, Regina, and to be honest, Nealfire has always rubbed me the wrong way.

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    • Even without this episode, I think fans were either too harsh on Milah or too blinded by some pirate's devotion. Milah was a person that made mistakes, like all of us and like Rumple. I actually think she showed to be Rumple's equal. You don't have to be super-smart or anything, but she matched Rumple's game as she's the only one that had the chance to know the real him. Belle has barely seen that except for an episode and I think she didn't like it. Cora never saw it and was a close match, but Milah is one that can get under Rumple's skin and actually stand up to him without magic or wating a long time.

      I actually think that Milah and Rumple's present day moment was genuine and he didn't want to do that to Milah. So, I think the play-acting was very real at least to a degree.

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    • While I did not care much for this episode, as a whole. It was nice to see what truly pushed Milah over the edge, and finally leave her husband. 

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    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:
      While I did not care much for this episode, as a whole. It was nice to see what truly pushed Milah over the edge, and finally leave her husband. 

      Hahahahaha, "Pushed Milah over the edge". I think I know what--or who did that XD

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    • I hear rumors Robin will die. I wonder if we look back at Devil's Due when Regina conjured up the fireball as the beginning of her temporary lapse back to Evil Queen. Just saying. Seems innocence now, but next thin you'll know an episode open up with "Previously on Once Upon a Time..." and we'll see a clip from this episode.

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    • Seasrmar wrote:
      I hear rumors Robin will die. I wonder if we look back at Devil's Due when Regina conjured up the fireball as the beginning of her temporary lapse back to Evil Queen. Just saying. Seems innocence now, but next thin you'll know an episode open up with "Previously on Once Upon a Time..." and we'll see a clip from this episode.

      Well, rumors are meaningless speculation. Regina was simply checking if she had her powers back. Everyone knows that Regina loves her fireballs. If I were her, I'd check how much power I got back too.

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    • Wow, with Devil's Due yesterday and Daredevil on Friday... Disney sure is trying to conjure up some startling imagery. I wonder if we'll be getting something Darth Maul themed to round out the Star Wars-Marvel-Disney trio?

      Sorry, that's off topic. It's obvious this title has two meanings. Rumple, the little devil, has finally gotten his due: he's someone's pet. Again. And Hades has a debt that he can cash in at any time, thus giving him his due if he does.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Wow, with Devil's Due yesterday and Daredevil on Friday... Disney sure is trying to conjure up some startling imagery. I wonder if we'll be getting something Darth Maul themed to round out the Star Wars-Marvel-Disney trio?

      Sorry, that's off topic. It's obvious this title has two meanings. Rumple, the little devil, has finally gotten his due: he's someone's pet. Again. And Hades has a debt that he can cash in at any time, thus giving him his due if he does.

      And that someone's preganacy is due XD

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    • All I gotta say is that Belle had better avoid Granny's Onion Rings.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote: All I gotta say is that Belle had better avoid Granny's Onion Rings.

      Actually, I think Emma could make a fortune out of those things! If you don't mind ingesting Dark Magic, anyway...

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    • She might could, but only if she can get Dr Whale to provide medical backup.

      But I digress.

      Speaking of onion rings, I'm missing Zelena and her sass.  You'd think with all of the Flashbacks they could throw in one Oz scene and just clue us in on what's up with our favorite Wicked Witch.

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    • I don't understand the bit with the tombstones. Are Emma, Snow and Regina dead now or what? If Hades can just create tombstones and instantly kill a living person in the Underworld why didn't he do this from the beginning? Looks like Henry better hurry up and find that pen, he only had like 2 words to say in this episode!!! Tbh Hook should have just chiseled in Rumple, and David and Snow because they're so annoying.

      I'm glad Hook is back with Emma now though ... I was worried they'd spend like 10 episodes chasing Hades and Hook before they made any progress, all the while bumping into more dead people and having to help them get their closure.

      But I swear to Zeus, Hades' blue hair is giving me a headache ... it was a cool touch at the end of souls of the departed, but it just doesn't go. In Disney's Hercules, the hair matched Hades' overall deathly appearance, but you can't just take a normal looking guy in a comfy suit and give his hair some crappy CGI.

      I'm loving the plot holes getting closed so far this season, and Rumple's deal with the wizard. I love the touch that Rumplestiltskin had to promise someone else his next child - irony at its sweetest. But as I believe someone has said, it's a shame how it rules out any other kids Rumple may have had between Baelfire and baby French. I wonder whether the baby will inherit any Dark Oneness, or at least magic. I feel bad for Henry now though, having an uncle and now a half-uncle who are over 10 years younger than him, that's just messed up.

      I'm still hoping that my theory from last week's episode, about Hades doing a similar thing to what Rumple tried with the Sorcerer's Hat, is at least partially right, and I'm getting confident after seeing the sneak peek for next week (SPOILERS - Snow and David find a key marked similarly to the Sorcerer's Hat).

      I'm hoping we can save Milah, perhaps the same way Megara is saved in the movie. Perhaps a god will come to help them quite soon and will be able to fish Milah out of the river himself.

      I also hope they look for Merlin soon, or at least check if his gravestone is knocked over. Emma and Hook kind of owe it to him since they killed him. But I guess I'm just still hung up on his frankly pathetic death. And where the hell are all the Dark Ones??? We know they're all in Underbrooke, why hasn't Nimue reared her lizard head yet?

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    • Eskaver
      Eskaver removed this reply because:
      Only because it's heavily spoilerific
      02:51, March 23, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Here are my thoughts about the episode: it wasn't bad, it was better than the previous episode, unfortunately I still remember season 2 even though the writers try to rewrite it. I remember exactly who Hook was and who Rumple was. While both of them are at fault for this fued, they treat it like it's solely Rumple's, but if you look back at 204, Hook was portrayed as a womanizing sex predator, a bully and a jerk, so forgive me for not buying his sudden change when he met Milah. 

      I hate that they try to retcon Rumple and paint him as one who can do no right just to glorify Hook who they try to make him as the one who can do no wrong. Everything good that Rumple has done is forgotten, while everything despicable that Hook has done is either excused, whitewashed or swept under the rug. It's okay for characters to have flaws, but when those flaws are not acknowledged, it just makes the characters seem selfish and hypocrites.

      Rumple's episodes such as 108, 119, 204, 214, 304 and 308 were always the strongest of the series and all of them fit well together. This one compared to them was weak and it doesn't fit, mainly because of all the retcons and characters iconsistencies

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    • Well, I quite enjoyed that one.

      - Surprised Emma got Hook back this early, but obviously she hasn't totally saved him yet.

      - I'm enjoying Cruella so much. She's easing me through Zelena's absence. That Bambi line, haha.

      - Didn't really get the point in the whole "magic works differently" thing, it seemed fine before. And that horse scene was just so random, it was actually kinda unintentionally funny to me. 

      - The flashbacks were okay, but I rolled my eyes a little at how Killian was portrayed  Killian was a horrible person who turned good... Rumple was a nice (if wimpy) person who turned bad. The writers need to stop trying to retcon that just because Hook is good now and they can't decide what to do with Rumple. It's not like we spend Regina flashbacks seeing what a stand up hero of a gal The Evil Queen actually was because she's friends with the heroes now! I'm not sure why they feel the need to water down Hook so much.

      - I'm really liking Hades, but geesh I wish they'd do away with the fiery head. It's just such a horrible effect and I think he's doing so well otherwise. 

      - Snow, Regina and Emma have graves. Okay, well I don't believe for a second that any of those three are in any real danger... but I'm interested to see how it develops anyway. 

      - Belle pregnant. *Sigh* Poor Belle. Also yay, another baby... we totally need more of those. Wonder how much these guys are paying the fairies to raise all their damn kids for them. 

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    • Lily's review: http://www.tv.com/shows/once-upon-a-time-2011/community/post/once-upon-a-time-season-5-episode-14-devils-due-review-145852765781/?fullstory=1

      Great point:

      "Emma and Cap'n Hook appeared a nano-second later and Rumple pretended Hades had blasted the book and killed Milah. Nice work, Rumple! Of course all of this was contrived so that we wouldn't have to deal with the problematic character math of Hook obsessively trying to get revenge for Milah's death lo these last 200 years, and then when he had a chance to fall into her arms, he couldn't because of Emma. For as long as he's been on the show, Hook's love for Milah has been his primary motivation and saving grace: he's not a bloodthirsty pirate, he's a heartbroken lover. But now that Hook has become the lynchpin of all Emma's motivations, he couldn't french his long-dead love in front of her. But if he showed restraint when he laid eyes on Milah again, it subverted everything motivating his character for the last three years. So they did, you guessed it, the easiest thing they could do: they kicked Milah out before she and Emma and Hook could share a screen. What a missed opportunity! That couple's canoe ride would have really been worth seeing."

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    • Farerb wrote:

      Here are my thoughts about the episode: it wasn't bad, it was better than the previous episode, unfortunately I still remember season 2 even though the writers try to rewrite it. I remember exactly who Hook was and who Rumple was. While both of them are at fault for this fued, they treat it like it's solely Rumple's, but if you look back at 204, Hook was portrayed as a womanizing sex predator, a bully and a jerk, so forgive me for not buying his sudden change when he met Milah. 

      They have not removed the womanizing from Killian by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, in Season 3 finale, he acknowledged that he was a womanizer back in the day, and he was definitely trying to pick up Milah in the tavern, so no sudden change at all. also, the way he handled the previous predator indicates some of his bully nature, even if he paints it as defending a woman's honor.

      As for the bully and jerk aspect, let me spin a different view. By the point we pick up Killian and Milah in 204, she has come to him, and has probably explained the situration regarding Rumple, including how he's a coward, and how he has abused her. She might have even told about how sold their (yet unconceived) second child to save Baelfire, but we have not seen any signs of that yet. In any case. Milah was ready to ditch Rumple, and Killian, in good form, defended Milah from Rumple, and took her away to a pirate's life. And, in retrospect, he was good to Milah, and they had a good relationship until Rumple killed her.  ANd we even know that Milah and Killian had discussed going back to get Bae to take him away from Rumple.

      Bottom line, I don't see the retcon.

      I hate that they try to retcon Rumple and paint him as one who can do no right just to glorify Hook who they try to make him as the one who can do no wrong. Everything good that Rumple has done is forgotten, while everything despicable that Hook has done is either excused, whitewashed or swept under the rug. It's okay for characters to have flaws, but when those flaws are not acknowledged, it just makes the characters seem selfish and hypocrites.

      Rumple's episodes such as 108, 119, 204, 214, 304 and 308 were always the strongest of the series and all of them fit well together. This one compared to them was weak and it doesn't fit, mainly because of all the retcons and characters iconsistencies

      As for Rumple, there are not many things that he has done that were good.  He did sacrifice himself, but if you think about it, it was to save 2 people, Belle and Baelfire. had they not been there in the street, he would have left the rest of them to Rot (in my opinion).  So this was about as close as Rumple has actually been to a selfless act.  Everything else was self serving, and not as good as people try to make it out.

      And don't get me wrong, I love Rumple, but he is not a good character. At his best, he is neutral, and not caring. at his worst (which is what we saw in the UW), he is downright evil. Yes, he was being civil with Milah, but deep down he was still upset with her for how she treated him, and that came through when he cast her into the river of Lost Souls.  There is, in my opinion, no contradiction in his behavior now and what we saw in season 1, and most of the stuff in between contradicts neither (there might be a couple of things, but everyone has moments when they act out of character, even me).

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    • I get what Farerb is saying though. Rumple, Milah, and Hook were all terrible people in a terrible situation. The issue with the episode is less of having Rumple be a jerk and sell Milah's chance at an unborn child and even less than Milah's dark urges (who knew she was willing to kill, but I understand). The issue is that standalone Hook looks like a secret knight in shining armor compared to the fickle, pushy Milah and the jerk Rumple.

      Nothing was too out of the realm of realism, but he looked good while others did not.

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    • I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Hook looked like a suave womanizer, which is what he was.

      Keep in mind where Killian was at this time. He was probably only 1-2 years (at most) into his pirate career. He was not seeking revenge against a Dark One that killed his lover. He was living a care-free life, which included catching the eye of any and every fair wench that he came across. He was still fresh from his Military background, so some of the aspects of chivalry and honor associated with that background are probably still somewhat towards the surface.

      The Killian that was portrayed in this episode matches what I would have expected from the above situation.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Hook looked like a suave womanizer, which is what he was.

      Keep in mind where Killian was at this time. He was probably only 1-2 years (at most) into his pirate career. He was not seeking revenge against a Dark One that killed his lover. He was living a care-free life, which included catching the eye of any and every fair wench that he came across. He was still fresh from his Military background, so some of the aspects of chivalry and honor associated with that background are probably still somewhat towards the surface.

      The Killian that was portrayed in this episode matches what I would have expected from the above situation.

      I would agree on most parts, but the "suave womanizer" is emphasized as much. I just checked the Facebook page and they uploaded that clip and captioned it "How chivalrous". This is a man that took a wife from her child (in a sense). And he looked like the better man in the episode.

      Of course, this is before vengeance, but we never see any good transition. We saw naval officer and then pirate, yet pirate before Milah's death seemed as much as a jerk as pirate before Milah's death.

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    • All i can say to that is that many acts of "chivalry" are really not much more than glorified womanizing. The only chivalrous act that I saw in the scene is that Killian backed off when he found out Milah was married and therefore not interested in pursuing a pirates life. Though he did invite her to look him up should she change her mind.

      hence, a suave womanizer, or a dashing rapscallion (Killians own words).

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    • I'm indifferent to it, however, I'll have to see once we see Hook's centric (if it's truly his) in order for me to make some sort of assertion. Until then, it's okay.

      Wait, did I say maybe Hook centric? Well,

      Regina's centric was pretty mostly Henry Sr/ somewhat Cora focused.

      Snow's centric was heavily Herc focused.

      Rumple's was heavily Milah focused. 

      Hmmm, I spy a connection.

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    • Like Hook's centric will be heavily focused on Liam? I can't say I disagree.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Like Hook's centric will be heavily focused on Liam? I can't say I disagree.

      Well the theme of the arc is unfinished business, so there aren't a lot of choices of who could be in Hook's flashbacks.

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    • To be honest, I think Milah was a joke in the flashback, and I don't know why everyone blames Rumple for his decision. Yes, he sold her chance for another baby (with Rumple) but it was still to save the child she already had - and ended up abandoning.

      But if she thought it was so easy to kill a man and steal something from him, why couldn't she do it herself? God knows she was more able than Rumple and his limp. But no, she just told Rumple to do it and wandered off to the tavern.

      Personally, I think sparing the healer's life was one of the few good things Rumple had done. I wouldn't ask my boyfriend to kill a man for something - if I was desperate enough, maybe I'd do it myself, but I couldn't ask him to become a murderer while I sat back and waited. And if he'd found another way around the problem, I wouldn't have blamed him. Rumple was right - one child with a happy family is better than 2 children with a murderer for a father and a darkness in their house.

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    • Jordy267 wrote:
      To be honest, I think Milah was a joke in the flashback, and I don't know why everyone blames Rumple for his decision. Yes, he sold her chance for another baby (with Rumple) but it was still to save the child she already had - and ended up abandoning.

      But if she thought it was so easy to kill a man and steal something from him, why couldn't she do it herself? God knows she was more able than Rumple and his limp. But no, she just told Rumple to do it and wandered off to the tavern.

      Personally, I think sparing the healer's life was one of the few good things Rumple had done. I wouldn't ask my boyfriend to kill a man for something - if I was desperate enough, maybe I'd do it myself, but I couldn't ask him to become a murderer while I sat back and waited. And if he'd found another way around the problem, I wouldn't have blamed him. Rumple was right - one child with a happy family is better than 2 children with a murderer for a father and a darkness in their house.

      You're looking through a fun house mirror, but not alone. Rumple and Milah were both terrible people and they both had problems. And people blame Rumple for his decision because he's the one that made it. The probelm was that he sold away her agency, which is never something someone should do. So, in simple terms, Milah was trapped and pushed her frustrations out on Rumple and Rumple wasn't much of a helpful person.

      So, Milah was wrong to get Rumple do deliver vigilante justice, but Rumple was wrong in not talking to Milah first because he sold Milah's chance to have another child with him. You can't make decisions for others in your relationship without talking about things.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      You're looking through a fun house mirror, but not alone. Rumple and Milah were both terrible people and they both had problems. And people blame Rumple for his decision because he's the one that made it. The probelm was that he sold away her agency, which is never something someone should do. So, in simple terms, Milah was trapped and pushed her frustrations out on Rumple and Rumple wasn't much of a helpful person.

      So, Milah was wrong to get Rumple do deliver vigilante justice, but Rumple was wrong in not talking to Milah first because he sold Milah's chance to have another child with him. You can't make decisions for others in your relationship without talking about things.

      I totally agree with that, he should have talked to her, but they were running out of time. I wonder if it was possible to bring her to the healer's tent before Baelfire died, but maybe he just thought it was a no-brainer. A stupid move nonetheless, my only real point here is that I see a lot of sympathy for Milah here even though she, unlike Rumple, wasn't trying her best to save her son AND be the parent Baelfire deserved. Also, during her flirting with a pirate who was experienced in stealing, had most likely killed people and was more physically fit for it than Rumple, did it not occur to Milah to ask Killian to take the potion?

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    • Jordy267 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:

      You're looking through a fun house mirror, but not alone. Rumple and Milah were both terrible people and they both had problems. And people blame Rumple for his decision because he's the one that made it. The probelm was that he sold away her agency, which is never something someone should do. So, in simple terms, Milah was trapped and pushed her frustrations out on Rumple and Rumple wasn't much of a helpful person.

      So, Milah was wrong to get Rumple do deliver vigilante justice, but Rumple was wrong in not talking to Milah first because he sold Milah's chance to have another child with him. You can't make decisions for others in your relationship without talking about things.

      I totally agree with that, he should have talked to her, but they were running out of time. I wonder if it was possible to bring her to the healer's tent before Baelfire died, but maybe he just thought it was a no-brainer. A stupid move nonetheless, my only real point here is that I see a lot of sympathy for Milah here even though she, unlike Rumple, wasn't trying her best to save her son AND be the parent Baelfire deserved. Also, during her flirting with a pirate who was experienced in stealing, had most likely killed people and was more physically fit for it than Rumple, did it not occur to Milah to ask Killian to take the potion?

      It deals with the society they are in. Milah was pretty much giving Rumple a chance at doing the manly thing to do. It's not right to have strangers do things for you, especially if you don;t know them. Rumple fought in a war and likely knew how to fight, while Milah didn't so, it was the manly thing to do that was suppose to be Rumple's. Milah likely never wielded a weapon to kill anyone.

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    • That's true I guess. I just thought since she knew Killian had probably killed people, this would just be another pirate job for which she could owe him. ONCE is full of people asking other people to do dirty jobs for them and making deals. And while Rumple has received training, he didn't actually fight in the war and he gave himself a limp - not very useful for a fight using a cheap dagger. I thought Milah had as much experience killing people as Rumple did (none), and at the very least she could have gone him, especially given his track record. It's all very well giving him a chance to be a man but for a known coward with only hours to act, I would have taken no chances in her position.

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    • Jordy267 wrote:
      That's true I guess. I just thought since she knew Killian had probably killed people, this would just be another pirate job for which she could owe him. ONCE is full of people asking other people to do dirty jobs for them and making deals. And while Rumple has received training, he didn't actually fight in the war and he gave himself a limp - not very useful for a fight using a cheap dagger. I thought Milah had as much experience killing people as Rumple did (none), and at the very least she could have gone him, especially given his track record. It's all very well giving him a chance to be a man but for a known coward with only hours to act, I would have taken no chances in her position.

      But we aren't her and things have to happen for the plot. If Milah went, then we'd probably have no story or show. XD

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    • I agree that Milah is getting WAY too much sympathy. Yeah, Spinner Rumple made a bad choice but she was being insane for wanting to murder someone. Not to mention, she was far from a perfect mom and spent the remainder of her life as a pirate who helped Hook steal and more than likely kill a few people. TBh, who's to say she wouldn't have gone to the WORST place?

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      I agree that Milah is getting WAY too much sympathy. Yeah, Spinner Rumple made a bad choice but she was being insane for wanting to murder someone. Not to mention, she was far from a perfect mom and spent the remainder of her life as a pirate who helped Hook steal and more than likely kill a few people. TBh, who's to say she wouldn't have gone to the WORST place?

      And then, you are giving Rumple too much sympathy. As I said, both did terrible things and weren't the best of people. Both get the sympathy that they deserved, but this was a more Milah focus episode because honestly, most people were harsh on Milah when we first saw her back in season 2 and she didn't deserve it then and the same for Rumple now. It's like Cora and Henry Sr. Both were bad parents and both were equally guilty with how things turned out (except there was a power dynamic).

      Milah would have went to the better place. She's really not that bad. She made a mistake, is self aware, and that's that. Same as Henry Sr. Pretty much, one has to learn there lesson and then all is good. I think she learned that pretty much.

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    • Until this episode, Rumple pre-dark one, was never portrayed as evil or selfish, a lot of his choices were for his family and son, but now they need to spin it so that HE WAS THE ONE who wronged Milah, he trapped her, but fortunately for her came her noble hero Hook to save her from that terrible man, Rumple.

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    • Actually, this decision lines up perfectly with what we know of Rumple. He was so focused on raising Bae, he hobbled himself, bringing Milah great dishonor. He was so focused on saving Bae, he condemned Milah to never have children again. He refused to let Bae die in war, so he tried to control the Dark One, which ultimately led to Milah's death years later. Everytime he intentionally protects Bae, he eventually hurt Milah.

      The one time he tried to fight for Milah herself, though this was for Bae's benefit rather than his own, his cowardice and self-preservation were too much, and he let Hook "take her away". In fact, for all her anger, bitterness and "I never loved you", I feel like if Rumple had shown growth on that ship, and fought for her, Milah may have actually gone back to him. After all, the one thing she's echoed in all of her appearances was that she wanted Rumple to step up and be a man.

      He didn't fight in the war, in fact ran from it. Which is ILLEGAL in the modern day, by the way. He sold away her reproductive choice. He refused to move away and start over somewhere new (why does everyone forget that she gave him that one last chance just before leaving him for Hook?). Then to top it all off, he helped her come to terms with all the damage she'd caused her son, only to hurl her into a river that she will never be able to escape from.

      Yeah, Milah abandoned her son. But even when he was good, Rumple was still a monster. He just didn't realize it. He's an abuser at its finest.

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    • Rumple hurt himself because he feared his child would grow up the way he did, he didn't do it to "dishonor" Milah, it's not his fault that she cares too much what other people think. He sold his (his not hers) second child after she tried to force him into becoming a murderer, and Hook throwing a weapon at a cripple telling him to fight while HOOK KNOWS THAT HE PHYSICALLY CAN'T is not an act of heroism, and Rumple was brave enough to come to Hook's ship BEGGING him to release his wife and he probably knew that Hook might kill him. Bravery should not be measured by a man's ability to pick up a sword and fight, something they used to show us in earlier seasons, but it doesn't fit that they try to sell Hook as a hero and Rumple as a villain so they deform it and try to manipulate us into thinking that what we saw in season 2 was false.

      The only time Rumple was a coward was when he didn't follow Bae into the portal, something he regretted later and spent life times trying to fix that mistake.

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    • Farerb wrote:
      Rumple hurt himself because he feared his child would grow up the way he did, he didn't do it to "dishonor" Milah, it's not his fault that she cares too much what other people think. He sold his (his not hers) second child after she tried to force him into becoming a murderer, and Hook throwing a weapon at a cripple telling him to fight while HOOK KNOWS THAT HE PHYSICALLY CAN'T is not an act of heroism, and Rumple was brave enough to come to Hook's ship BEGGING him to release his wife and he probably knew that Hook might kill him. Bravery should not be measured by a man's ability to pick up a sword and fight, something they used to show us in earlier seasons, but it doesn't fit that they try to sell Hook as a hero and Rumple as a villain so they deform it and try to manipulate us into thinking that what we saw in season 2 was false.

      The only time Rumple was a coward was when he didn't follow Bae into the portal, something he regretted later and spent life times trying to fix that mistake.

      100% agreed Fareb. Not to mention that this is the same guy who, as a crippled  spinner, set a castle on fire to create a distarction, and went inside said burning castle to steal a magical weapon tied to the most evil being in the Ef. And even though Zoso scared him, Rumple tore into the guy and didn't let up once he got angry enough. Hook has his arguably "good" moments but his entire character is on a whole, quite petty. Let's look at "Good form." He could've started a rebellion against this corrupt king or warned others of Neverland, or even just quit the Navy. Instead, he picked being a pirate, stealing from others, killing, and living under a code he freely breaks when he feels like it. His role during season 2 was basically switching sides to suit his purpose, shooting a woman who pleaded on his behalf, and almost leaving everyone in the lurch. Even in Season 4, when he knew Rumple was lying, he chose the option of gaining leverage over his rival whether than the more heroic and responsible option of telling everyone, thus endangering his supposed TL Emma.   

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    • Hmm, some people are washing Milah as a hero and others are doing so to Rumple. Milah was trapped by her circumstances and by Rumple's choices. What noone seems to be getting is that they were both people who made terrible choices.

      Rumple took away whatever agency that she had and left her in a rut. Essentially, Rumple gave away her child because she was married to him and there must be no option for divorce. Murder must be casual in EF, but Milah didn't want Rumple to be a murderer, she wanted him to be the man that stands up for himself or at least his child and take what he wants (I mean that's exactly what he did in present day, so that's what the message was). Milah obviously wasn't thinking straight as her child was endangered (and both parents were willling to do anything for their child until later abandoning them) and when Rumple returned she was like "OMG Rumple, we need to hide the body" in exclamation because I don't think she realized what she had just asked for.

      Courage was defined in Once as being willing to standing up for yourself. Rumple wasn't courageous as a spinner because he wasn't willing to take risks, to fight for what he wanted, to let others make their choices themselves, etc. Rumple was selfish. Not in the way of being all "ME. ME. ME", but he held control over his family's lives and you can see how he does that will Belle. Milah was stuck in a marriage and in a situation she couldn't get out of and Rumple didn't make it much better.

      And there's no reason to bring Hook in for some comparison unless you can't argue Rumple's sainthood (and yes, I'm kidding). I'm obviously a fan of Rumple, but if you think Milah was terrible and Rumple was okay, then you must be loking through tinted glass.

      In the Hook-Milah- Rumple story, everyone was a grey character, no shade much different than the other.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      But we aren't her and things have to happen for the plot. If Milah went, then we'd probably have no story or show. XD

      Even if a good reason to justify a character's behaviour was "to create a plot", you're missing my point. I'm fine with what Milah has done from a general perspective, knowing that it makes the show what it is, all I'm trying to say is I don't like the stick Rumple is getting for the decision he made and how everyone feels sorry for Milah because Rumple sold his second child. And even if he hadn't sold it, it would still be Rumple's decision not to have a second child. A couple should only have a child if both of them want it. And after what bad parents they both were to Baelfire, I'm glad they never had another kid.

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    • Jordy267 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:

      But we aren't her and things have to happen for the plot. If Milah went, then we'd probably have no story or show. XD

      Even if a good reason to justify a character's behaviour was "to create a plot", you're missing my point. I'm fine with what Milah has done from a general perspective, knowing that it makes the show what it is, all I'm trying to say is I don't like the stick Rumple is getting for the decision he made and how everyone feels sorry for Milah because Rumple sold his second child. And even if he hadn't sold it, it would still be Rumple's decision not to have a second child. A couple should only have a child if both of them want it. And after what bad parents they both were to Baelfire, I'm glad they never had another kid.

      The episode was likely meant to draw sympathy for Milah. I'm sure noone's thinking Milah was a victim of Rumple's who was the goodiest do-gooder. The problem with Rumple's deal is that having a second child is Rumple's AND Milah's decision. Rumple was wrong in not including her say in the matter. That's the problem with what Rumple did. We don't know what Milah wanted but if she wanted a second child, Rumple just took that away from her without discussing it with her.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      In the Hook-Milah- Rumple story, everyone was a grey character, no shade much different than the other.

      This is the truth right here. Hook, Milah, and Rumple are all portrayed as people who make bad choices, even if they have somewhat good reasoning behind those choices.

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    • In my mind all the bad things Hades has done to Hook so far, don't even compare to what Rumple did to him, which was make his heroic sacrifice be in vain. Because Rumple was so desperate for power, his actions made Hook basically die for nothing.

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    • MyPretties wrote:
      In my mind all the bad things Hades has done to Hook so far, don't even compare to what Rumple did to him, which was make his heroic sacrifice be in vain. Because Rumple was so desperate for power, his actions made Hook basically die for nothing.

      It wasn't for nothing. Hook had to deal with the consequences of his mistakes and he didn't "sacrifice" himself only to rid the world from darkness, but to prevent Emma's family dying, which they didn't in the end so..not for nothing at all. People only think it was for nothing because the writing tells us it was for nothing, but we saw it wasn't.

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    • Farerb wrote:

      It wasn't for nothing. Hook had to deal with the consequences of his mistakes and he didn't "sacrifice" himself only to rid the world from darkness, but to prevent Emma's family dying, which they didn't in the end so..not for nothing at all. People only think it was for nothing because the writing tells us it was for nothing, but we saw it wasn't.

      So true. I love Hook but always hate when he gets all dramatic and says something that's plainly incorrect. Yes, he hoped to die for a much higher purpose by destroying the Darkness forever, but saving Emma's family was not a waste (except for Snow, David and Grumpy, they can all stay in Underbrooke for all I care). Like when he kept saying it took him centuries to drive out the darkness in him - no it didn't. After centuries of killing and being as dark as he liked, Hook met Emma and that's when everything changed. In reality it took him only a few weeks when he actually tried to be a good person. I think this show has gotten into the habit of making dramatic overstatements tbh.

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    • Killian sacrificed himself for Emma. But that whole discussion belongs somewhere else, not here.

      I don't necessarily feel sorry for what happened in the past. Rumple was a coward, and made bad choices. Those choices coast him his marriage, and his son, and now his freedom. Milah made bad choices, which cost her her son and eventually her life. And Killian does not even come into play until after the events have occurred. He's really just "the other man".

      What I feel sympathy for is how Milah was mistreated in the present day. She knew what she had done, and was ready to make amends. She was civil to Rumple, and ended up being cordial towards Emma. Milah earned her place in the UW, and had spent around 200 years there. Milah did not deserve the fate of being thrown into the river.

      The episode highlighted just how selfish Rumple has been. He cheated his way out of the ogre war, he stole any chance of family, he broke a promise to his son, he lied to his current wife, he murdered his ex wife TWICE. I love Rumple, but i don't feel any sympathy for him.

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    • I have a question regardimg this episode:

      Was Rumple a coward when he couldn't kill that man? Was murdering him the brave thing to do?

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    • Farerb wrote:
      I have a question regardimg this episode:

      Was Rumple a coward when he couldn't kill that man? Was murdering him the brave thing to do?

      It wasn't the brave thing to do, and it wasn't the right thing to do. But when it comes to making sure your kid doesn't die, you do whatever it takes.

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    • Farerb wrote:
      I have a question regardimg this episode:

      Was Rumple a coward when he couldn't kill that man? Was murdering him the brave thing to do?

      I think he made the right choice not to kill him. I think the writers support that particular decision too since it's a bit like when Snow had the chance to kill someone else to save her mother's life and her mother told her she was right to let her die. Snow thought the brave thing was to use the Dakr magic candle but the show tells us that sparing a life is the right thing to do.

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    • Being courageous isn't the same as doing the right thing.

      Courageous is defined as "not deterred by danger or pain; brave".

      ​So, I feel that you are connotating and implying morality over a word that has a definition separate of such morality. The brave thing to do is to stand up for yourself and to take risks, but it isn't always the right thing to do. Like Merida, the brave thing to do was to kidnap this bookworm and use her to get what you want, but it definitely was morally grey.

      It is cowardice to sit and accept your fate when you don't like it or have the chance to fight back. That was taught in "White Out" where Anna told David that he wasn't doing things to live, but because of cowardice, the pain of his past, that he was willing to simply "survive". Doing the brave thing isn't always the smartest or morally correct thing to do, but it's simply that: Being Brave.

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    • I must say I disagree.

      To me, true bravery is simply facing your fears, which is often the fear of what doing the right thing will bring, as the right thing to do is rarely the easy thing to do. So the good thing and the brave thing are very often the same, although not always. Rumple never does the right thing because he's such a coward e.g. going with Baelfire to the land without magic, or sparing Milah and having a harder time getting out of Underbrooke. All his cowardly acts are also his selfish acts, because selflessness and bravery aren't that different (Divergent) and to me selflessness is true goodness, while selfishness is evil. Notice how the cowards in this show are the ones who have done unspeakable things - e.g. Rumple, Pan and Hook before he was good.

      Sometimes accepting your fate can be a form of bravery because it means facing the fear of what will come, even if that is losing your son. All the times when a character was brave to fight back, they were fighting the person responsible for their suffering or they weren't killing others in the process or both. But the healer was not responsible for Baelfire's poisoning, the snake was.

      Even Merida herself defines true bravery for us when teaching Rumple to fight, saying how he wasn't thinking of himself or his limp, he was thinking of Belle. Which meant that bravery is fighting for others without thinking about yourself - which is the same as being selfless.

      So when I say Rumple made the right choice not to kill the healer, I do mean it would not be brave to kill him. The bravest thing would be to find a better way to help Baelfire than through murder, as it means facing Rumple's fear of failing to save his son and the fear of what he would have to do to save him instead of killing a man.

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    • Well, you can disagree, but that's the textbook....or in this case, dictionary definition. Can't argue that it's not true and that's why you put "real bravery".

      I'd argue that both option would be brave. Killing the man takes bravery, especially since he wields magic. But it also takes bravery to choose to do the right thing even though it's not likable.

      But in some cases, sitting and accepting your fate as David did when faced with the warlord Bo Peep was declared as cowardice, which it was.

      And the bravest thing wasn't "finding a better way", courage is defined outside of morals and that was the more moral thing to do, maybe the smart thing to do, but it wasn't the bravest thing to do.

      In layman's terms, being courageous isn't the same as being heroic.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Well, you can disagree, but that's the textbook....or in this case, dictionary definition. Can't argue that it's not true and that's why you put "real bravery".

      I'd argue that both option would be brave. Killing the man takes bravery, especially since he wields magic. But it also takes bravery to choose to do the right thing even though it's not likable.

      But in some cases, sitting and accepting your fate as David did when faced with the warlord Bo Peep was declared as cowardice, which it was.

      And the bravest thing wasn't "finding a better way", courage is defined outside of morals and that was the more moral thing to do, maybe the smart thing to do, but it wasn't the bravest thing to do.

      In layman's terms, being courageous isn't the same as being heroic.

      I'm not disagreeing with the dictionary definition. Not that such a complex, abstract concept as bravery can be defined in a few words as a dictionary attempts to. I'm using what I've seen in Once Upon a Time, and in other stories about the philosophy of bravery, to construct my opinion. But I still think that your definition of courage fits in with what I have said anyway. Rumple was indeed not deterred by the danger or pain of losing his son when he spared the healer, therefore the dictionary only confirms it as a brave act.

      I agree both options have some bravery to them, but I believe Rumple's decision took a greater strength. However I don't think the healer having magic is relevant, since he seemed to be allowing Rumple to kill him (possibly because he didn't think he would).

      And I agree on the example of David giving in to Bo Peep, but then he only had his own life to lose when he stood up to her, and he was taking the fight to the one causing trouble, rather than taking the easy way out - e.g. stealing from someone else to pay her off.

      And as for "finding a better way", my point wasn't that it being better made the choice courageous, my point was that the better way was likely to be more difficult. I had already made the point that I think the easiest option is rarely the morally better option. I think facing the difficult choice is what's brave because you face the fear of failure.

      And I'm not trying to be ironic here, but the dictionary says that heroism is the same as courage. But without looking that up, I already believed that they are one and the same anyway.

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    • Yeah, we're just arguing semantics. At the end of the day, what Rumple did wasn't right, but he had the choice between bad, bad, and bad. Guess what he chose!

      Rumple does have a terrible time choosing right and it's never good, when there are bad choices lurking around every corner.

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    • Another question: if a man gets a vasectomy, does it mean that he took his wife's agency by doing it?

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    • I think it was one a the few times Rumple made the right decision, he refused to kill an innocent person even if it meant saving his son.  He promised his next child to the healer not necissarily Milah's next child.  It is the same thing if a father were to have an emergancy sugery to save his son's life that would result in the father being sterile after without time to ask his wife first.  Nobody would have questioned the father in that scenario.  Rumple did not have time to ask Milah's opinion he had to make a choice, his son dies, he kills the healer and becomes a murderer, or he gives away his probably never going to be born next child.  Any father in his situation would have done the same.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Yeah, we're just arguing semantics. At the end of the day, what Rumple did wasn't right, but he had the choice between bad, bad, and bad. Guess what he chose!

      Rumple does have a terrible time choosing right and it's never good, when there are bad choices lurking around every corner.

      Exactly, just arguing semantics. So back to my original point in answering Farerb's question, I think Rumple made both the braver decision and the right decision in not killing the healer.

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    • Frulna wrote:
      I think it was one a the few times Rumple made the right decision, he refused to kill an innocent person even if it meant saving his son.  He promised his next child to the healer not necissarily Milah's next child.  It is the same thing if a father were to have an emergancy sugery to save his son's life that would result in the father being sterile after without time to ask his wife first.  Nobody would have questioned the father in that scenario.  Rumple did not have time to ask Milah's opinion he had to make a choice, his son dies, he kills the healer and becomes a murderer, or he gives away his probably never going to be born next child.  Any father in his situation would have done the same.

      An excellent point, I wish I'd thought of that before. Same to Farerb for talking about getting a vasectomy. Rumple's choice had a bigger impact on himself than Milah, because Milah could still have a child with someone else if she wanted, it was just Rumple who was doomed to give up his second child. And a couple should only have a child if both halves want it. If Milah didn't want another baby Rumple wouldn't have thrown a tantrum saying she's decided the rest of his life for him, so why should she do the same? I think she was wrong not to be grateful that her first child can live at all without bloodshed, especially when it was hers and Rumple's fault that Bae almost died to begin with. And if I realised I couldn't keep an eye on my only son while he gets bitten by a venomous snake, I wouldn't even want or deserve the responsibility of 2 children.

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    • Not sure if this is your intent, but you guys are basically proving that Milah was totally in the right to leave Rumple, after he gave up his next child to Fendrake. Rumple made a choice that only effected Milah if she stayed with him, so she took control back, by leaving him.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Not sure if this is your intent, but you guys are basically proving that Milah was totally in the right to leave Rumple, after he gave up his next child to Fendrake. Rumple made a choice that only effected Milah if she stayed with him, so she took control back, by leaving him.

      Milah has every right to leave Rumple. Every couple who is in an unhappy relationship should split. However, she doesn't have the right to emotionally abuse Rumple, she doesn't have the right to abandon her son. The point was that people (and the writers) try to vilify Rumple by manipulating his actions or label him as a coward when most of the time it wasn't true, especially pre-dark one Rumple.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Not sure if this is your intent, but you guys are basically proving that Milah was totally in the right to leave Rumple, after he gave up his next child to Fendrake. Rumple made a choice that only effected Milah if she stayed with him, so she took control back, by leaving him.

      I don't blame Milah for leaving Rumple. If anything, I judged her for marrying him to begin with when she admitted she never loved him. And yes, Rumple's decision to never have another kid did kind of push her away. But only in the way that anyone would leave a partner who didn't want any kids (or in this case, any more).

      What made Milah a bad person was abandoning Rumple and Baelfire for a life with Hook. Not wanting to be with Rumple is fine, but it wasn't just about her anymore and she had a son to care for. Even she admits in Underbrooke that that was a crappy move on her part. Running out on her responsibilities because she found someone else was selfish.

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    • Jordy267 wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Not sure if this is your intent, but you guys are basically proving that Milah was totally in the right to leave Rumple, after he gave up his next child to Fendrake. Rumple made a choice that only effected Milah if she stayed with him, so she took control back, by leaving him.
      I don't blame Milah for leaving Rumple. If anything, I judged her for marrying him to begin with when she admitted she never loved him. And yes, Rumple's decision to never have another kid did kind of push her away. But only in the way that anyone would leave a partner who didn't want any kids (or in this case, any more).

      What made Milah a bad person was abandoning Rumple and Baelfire for a life with Hook. Not wanting to be with Rumple is fine, but it wasn't just about her anymore and she had a son to care for. Even she admits in Underbrooke that that was a crappy move on her part. Running out on her responsibilities because she found someone else was selfish.

      Milah had already started to loathe Rumple before he made this deal, that started as soon as he injured himself to avoid the Ogre Wars.  She would have left him regardless.  She should have been happy her son was healthy again and going to live but instead she abandons him for no good reason.  Just seems like Rumple can't win, he makes the right choice and his son gets abandoned by his mother, he makes a series of bad choices and he gets to repair his relationship with his son.  No wonder Rumple is usuay making the bad choice, it is usually more rewarding for him and thoe he cares about than when he makes the right one.

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    • The thing I think people are glossing over is Milah's ability to leave and willingness. Milah shows that she didn't really want to get up and leave or try to get out of her marriage right away. Milah and Rumple were likely at least friends in some way and had some level of decency around each other. Milah only left at the pit of despair and some coaxing by a handsome, young pirate and also a ton of drinking.

      I think everyone's also putting a modern view on it. People today can get in relationships willynilly and marry and divorce ten times over, but that's not necessarily the case in the Enchanted Forest. So, there was likely no good way out of their bad situation (plus, I'm sure there are countless peasants offscreen living horribly).

      Rumple did the right thing and it took some bravery, but it was not without its disgust. All choices were morally grey, so you can't fault him for that. Plus, Rumple seems like a traditional, patriarchal kind of guy. Ya know, the whole "little wifey in the kitchen raising the children" kind of thing. That's the secret problem of any happy Rumbelle thing, but I digress.

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    • Just to put my 2 cents on the subject.

      First, Rumple made the cowardly choice, but it wasn't in sparing Fendrake.  It was Not standing up to Milah.  Once he acquieced to her demand that he go and kill Fendrake, there was no way that any choice was going to be good. Sure, he made what I would consider the morally correct decision to spare Fendrake, but followed it up with the morally grey decision to sell his unborn (and unconceived) child to save Bae.

      Here's the problem at it's root. The brave option is not in taking the black and white, either/or choices laid in front of you (kill or not kill Fendrake, Let Bae Die or Trade unborn child, etc).  Those are Devil's choices (and they are called that for good reason). The Brave option is to seek the 3rd alternative, and that is something that Rumple just doesn't seem to grasp. He always looks for the easy way out. The closest that Rumple ever got to taking the brave option was when he stole the DO Dagger. The action was motivated by his desire to save Bae, so in that sense was selfish. But the action did require putting his life on the line (he could have died in the burning castle, the owner could have returned, there were any number of things that could have gone wrong). Where the action ultimately failed is what he did with the Dagger once he had it.  The Devil's choice given Rumple was to either Control the DO himself, or Kill the DO. There was a third option that was available, which would be to give the DO back the dagger. who knows what might have happened in that situation. and I think THAT would have been the brave option.

      Point being that being brave and courageous means eschewing the Devil's choices and finding the alternative path.

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    • I couldn't agree more :) it's like Snow said after killing Cora, about how there was another way, a harder way but a better way. She chose between letting Cora kill Rumple or trading her life for his, but later regretted that choice as she would have regretted the other.

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    • I know that Rumple crippled himself and Milah knew that, but wasn't it a little unreasonable to expect a man with a bad leg to walk around picking up and carrying piles of wood? He was looking after Baefire, after all. And as we saw, childcare is an especially important and fulltime job in the enchanted forest. You can't just leave a child to wander around the woods unattended. Who knows what could be out there, things like hungry witches, deep pits, wolves, bandits, evil queens, ogres, well- meaning fairies, ect. 

      Also, I'd say that something is only brave if it's not an act taking advantage of someone in a weaker position than yourself. Such a thing carries no risk which would make the act brave, and is actually cowardly. The witch doctor was sleeping, and Rumple was able to get the jump on him. Although the witch doctor might have been very dangerous when fully awake, in this case Rumple had all the power in the situation. So killing him wouldn't have been brave. Aggressive, yes, but not exactly staring danger in the face.

      Merida got an unarmed Belle alone and knocked her out as soon as she turned her back....  Probably knowing that nobody who would notice if she went missing. Not brave, aggressive.

      If Milah wanted someone who would be ruthless and aggressive, she should have married Gustan.

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    • There are societal roles that men and women play, especially in a medieval culture. The man was the one that was suppose to work and do the manual labor while the woman did housework and cared for the kid. Because Rumple cared for the kid she was "forced" to do the typical male role, but without any of the societal credit as they looked down on her and her family.

      Being valiant and courageous is different from moral correctness. One thing that has happened with the romanticizing of novels, movies, and etc, is that "Brave means making the tough choices and doing the right thing." I like that, many people like that, but that's still not the definition no matter how much you like that. A brave man can go kill a dragon terrorizing a village, but that man can still be a big jerk, basically be Disney's Gaston.

      Merida was being courageous and taking risks, so she was being brave, but it borders more on aggressive selfishness, but bravery excludes morality. In brevity, you can be brave and still a big jerk. Bravery is void of morality, no matter how romanticized it is today, no matter how much we love this new persepctive.

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    • It wasn't clear from the episode, but I'll go with you on that as the most likely explanation.

      My second point was that there's no danger in taking advantage of someone in a weaker position who can't fight back.Your definition of bravery requires there to be a chance for danger or pain.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • TrumpetofTheSwan wrote:
      It wasn't clear from the episode, but I'll go with you on that as the most likely explanation.

      My second point was that there's no danger in taking advantage of someone in a weaker position who can't fight back.Your definition of bravery requires there to be a chance for danger or pain.

      Well, as we saw, Rumple went to steal the potion before trying to kill him. I'm thinking that their plan was "Steal the potion, kill him if necessary". Danger is also a matter of perspective. For Rumple, he felt it was a dangerous journey as he was facing a magic man and he knew not what Fendrake could do to him. As you saw the magic man did not cower in fear from the danger but came back with threats to cast a spell to destroy him.

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
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