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  • This topic was partially discussed but never fully resolved on Thread:185513 and Thread:214247.
    The split counterparts template, as used for Zelena, Robin Hood, and several other character pages, is provided for characters who were born in the Enchanted Forest and were victims of the Dark Curse. As discussed on Thread:185513, the general view of the argument was that baby Neal and Alexandra are EF characters as they were conceived in, and spent most of their development in EF before they were brought over to LWM via the First Curse.

    This is supported by the fact that Alexandra was taken back to EF in 3x11 (Regina: "Everyone will go back", everyone apart from Emma and Henry did) where she lived for a year before being re-cursed in the Second Curse; the same applies for Neal in the Second Curse. However, in 4x21/22, when Isaac writes his alternate reality, everyone except Henry is taken away to alternate EF (Neal becomes Rumple and Belle's son). This is because, as stated by Isaac to Henry, "Do you know why you're still here? Because you're not from a magical world."

    Both Neal and Alexandra's pages also contain information about them pre-birth in EF. However, as we only know about their SB lives, therefore their pages contains primarily SB information. This does not change the fact that their origins are still in EF.

    Therefore, I propose a discussion over the use of the split counterparts template for Neal and Alexandra.

      Preparing Editor Spell
    • Now I get the problem.

      The problem in your suggestion Nick is that a lot of your "facts" are wrong, but also you're mixing differents notions.

      First of all, Alexandra has never been taken back to EF in 311. This is a supposition that you're doing cos of Regina's dialogue. Sure, she prolly went back but it is a supposition so not a fact. We can"t use it

      For Neal, well also a problem. Henry was included in the alternate universe. The alternate universe had two parts. The first one where Henry woke up: empty SB, in a LWM where Isaac was a successful author. The second part was the world in Isaac's book. Saying that Henry was not included in the alternate universe cos not an EF origin is not an argument, it is a mistake. Henry was not included because he was not born in a magical realm. He was born in the LWM, at Phoenix. Neal was born at SB, which is a magical land in the LWM. Different cases, so different points.

      Then, the problem of your wording. From what I am reading, you're mixing different notions. Because Neal's and Alexandra's conceptions happened in the EF, it makes them EF origin so EF characters? Well, that's wrong.

      An origin is not determined by the country of your conception. When people are talking about their country of origin, they are either talking of the country where they were born or the country where they were raised as children. In any case, people are talking about the country of their conception. Admitting your conception happened in Germany, does it mean that Germany is your country of origin, or it is the country where you were born? Of course, it is the second one. What's important in the origin of someone (and a character), is the place of its birth, not the place where its parents did sex to have it.

      So both Neal and Alexandra are SB characters and origin, and not EF. So we don't need the split counterpart template for themĀ :)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Lady Junky wrote: Now I get the problem.

      The problem in your suggestion Nick is that a lot of your "facts" are wrong, but also you're mixing differents notions.

      First of all, Alexandra has never been taken back to EF in 311. This is a supposition that you're doing cos of Regina's dialogue. Sure, she prolly went back but it is a supposition so not a fact. We can"t use it

      For Neal, well also a problem. Henry was included in the alternate universe. The alternate universe had two parts. The first one where Henry woke up: empty SB, in a LWM where Isaac was a successful author. The second part was the world in Isaac's book. Saying that Henry was not included in the alternate universe cos not an EF origin is not an argument, it is a mistake. Henry was not included because he was not born in a magical realm. He was born in the LWM, at Phoenix. Neal was born at SB, which is a magical land in the LWM. Different cases, so different points.

      Then, the problem of your wording. From what I am reading, you're mixing different notions. Because Neal's and Alexandra's conceptions happened in the EF, it makes them EF origin so EF characters? Well, that's wrong.

      An origin is not determined by the country of your conception. When people are talking about their country of origin, they are either talking of the country where they were born or the country where they were raised as children. In any case, people are talking about the country of their conception. Admitting your conception happened in Germany, does it mean that Germany is your country of origin, or it is the country where you were born? Of course, it is the second one. What's important in the origin of someone (and a character), is the place of its birth, not the place where its parents did sex to have it.

      So both Neal and Alexandra are SB characters and origin, and not EF. So we don't need the split counterpart template for themĀ :)

      Although it was not definitively seen or mentioned, Alexandra's return to EF in 3x11 does not need to be confirmed, it's just common sense. If she was not returned to EF and remained within Storybrooke's borders after the town disappeared, she would be a young baby in the middle of nowhere with no one to care for her; she would starve to death. Her reappearance with Ashley in 4x07 shows that she's still alive, so she must have gone back to EF in the missing year and has obviously returned. Adam even confirmed in a tweet that she was meant to be 18 months old in 4x07, so time for her has obviously passed as she returned to EF.

      Also, the fact about conception determining the world you are from was discussed in detail here. The OUAT universe is very different from our own what with magic altering reality in many ways, so with the evidence presented in-universe and through official OUAT media, our use of country determining conception cannot fully apply in OUAT.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • No no, the meaning of "origin" is the same. We don't change the meaning of "origin land/country" just for the sake of OUAT or our suggestions. Magic can alter a lot of things, that's true, but it does not alter at all your place of origin, which is the place of birth. In any case the place of conception is the origin of someone.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Yes, I think we should note that Alexandra and Neal were both born in SB though, as opposted to Henry who was born in LWM, because that seems to make a big difference. That may actually be why they are different then Henry, than the conseption thing anyway.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Yes, I think we should note that Alexandra and Neal were both born in SB though, as opposted to Henry who was born in LWM, because that seems to make a big difference. That may actually be why they are different then Henry, than the conseption thing anyway.

      That's exactly what are saying our infoboxes. Neal and Alexandra have the SB infobox, and Henry has the LWM one. The difference is already showed.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Yes, I think we should note that Alexandra and Neal were both born in SB though, as opposted to Henry who was born in LWM, because that seems to make a big difference. That may actually be why they are different then Henry, than the conseption thing anyway.
      That's exactly what are saying our infoboxes. Neal and Alexandra have the SB infobox, and Henry has the LWM one. The difference is already showed.

      Oh, alright, then we should be good. XD

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • A Spy in the Mirror
        Preparing Editor Spell
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