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  • Why does everyone keep insisting Zelena raped Robin? Rape is defined as "forced sexual intercouse", isn't it? Zelena didn't force Robin, she tricked him by posing as his wife. I'm pretty sure what Regina did to Graham counts as actual rape. How come nobody brings it up? 

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    • Let's be wary of the subject matter.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

      By deception, by force, or drugging, it's still lies under the same name (differing in some places).

      Another account of this would be if Arthur and Gwen had any intercourse as the Sands of Avalon was pretty much like drugging her.

      I'm sure plenty of people have brought it up. The show never really discussed it until a while after Zelena did it and labeled it as "the most vile" thing.

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    • Oh, okay. 

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    • The last time it was discussed here, the discussion kind of devolved into something awful.

      It's a touchy subject. The show doesn't discuss it, there's a hugr gray area about this kind of thing in media.

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    • My sicerest apologies. I'll try to avoid these kinds of subjects from now on. You can even delete this thread if you like.

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    • No need to apologize! :) it's a valid discussion to have, as long as we all remember that it can be sensitive to some.

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    • I'm always wary to jump to the rape word, when the act in question was because of magical means in a fantasy or sci fi work of fiction. I think we need a seperate word to describe these sort of acts, because to me it just feels wrong to lump what Zelena did to Robin or Regina did to Graham in the same category as, you know, real people who were actually raped in real life.

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    • What Zelena did to Robin is rape. I get that it's fantasy show so she might have done it in a magical way, but even though the show doesn't show us the victim's point of view, we have to acknowledge it. What does Robin think or feel when he discover such thing?

      You're absolutly right about Regina, she enslaved and used Graham for 30 years, that's rape.

      Another depictions of rape on the show were what Arthur did to Guinever and Hook implying that he gets women drunk in order to sleep with him.

      BTW, if this subject is sensitive to some people, I suggest putting a warning on the header. I think it is important for people to talk about these problematic subjects on the show and how it handles them.

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    • Thanks for the advice:)

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      Thanks for the advice:)

      That's ok, you didn't know. I was advising the mods because they can change the header.

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    • I added a warning. Does that help?

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    • While I understand the want for the show to deal with the issues it presents in a more realistic manner, this is a symptom of a larger societal issue. There are simply huge gray areas in people's thinking about rape in its various forms. And the way it's portrayed in fiction is a big indicator of that. I mean, think of all the shows and movies out there that make female on male rape into a joke. We can't expect any one show/project to be the flagship of realism, but we can dream.

      I doubt the writers had anything more in their minds than the sheer drama of Marian turning out to be Zelena, and then zomg! Pregnancy! as a way to play up the ReginaxZelena feud. Shouldn't be that way, but here we are.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      While I understand the want for the show to deal with the issues it presents in a more realistic manner, this is a symptom of a larger societal issue. There are simply huge gray areas in people's thinking about rape in its various forms. And the way it's portrayed in fiction is a big indicator of that. I mean, think of all the shows and movies out there that make female on male rape into a joke. We can't expect any one show/project to be the flagship of realism, but we can dream.

      I doubt the writers had anything more in their minds than the sheer drama of Marian turning out to be Zelena, and then zomg! Pregnancy! as a way to play up the ReginaxZelena feud. Shouldn't be that way, but here we are.

      I agree with you. This isn't just OUAT's problem. This is something I've seen in other media works, and I have no doubt that A&E didn't intend for it to be seen as rape.

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    • Why would they intend for it to be seen as rape when she didn't rape him?

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    • Ruby ridinghood wrote:
      Why would they intend for it to be seen as rape when she didn't rape him?

      Did Robin consent to have sex with ZELENA?

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    • The instance that gets me is the Evil Queen saying "take him to my bed chamber".

      I know that they were drawing a parallel to their booty calls in Storybrooke. I get that. But that line... i didn't need to hear that lol. And if it had been a man saying that about a woman, even the casual fans would've been up in arms about it.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      The instance that gets me is the Evil Queen saying "take him to my bed chamber".

      I know that they were drawing a parallel to their booty calls in Storybrooke. I get that. But that line... i didn't need to hear that lol. And if it had been a man saying that about a woman, even the casual fans would've been up in arms about it.

      I wouldn't have had a peoblem with Regina raping Graham and murdering him if they had delt with the consequences of it and Regina had been actually punished for it or atoned (so she can be redeemed), but they always neglect to mention the bad things she did (murder, rape, massace, regicide, abduction).

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    • Farerb wrote:
      Utter solitude wrote:
      The instance that gets me is the Evil Queen saying "take him to my bed chamber".

      I know that they were drawing a parallel to their booty calls in Storybrooke. I get that. But that line... i didn't need to hear that lol. And if it had been a man saying that about a woman, even the casual fans would've been up in arms about it.

      I wouldn't have had a peoblem with Regina raping Graham and murdering him if they had delt with the consequences of it and Regina had been actually punished for it or atoned (so she can be redeemed), but they always neglect to mention the bad things she did (murder, rape, massace, regicide, abduction).

      It's more of an issue with Once's redemption plan. I wrote it down somewhere, but it's pretty much:

      1. Try to change

      2. Backslide

      3. Attempt self sacrifice

      4. Redeemed?

      5. Return to step 2

      I could excuse SB Regina and Graham because it's like playing God and dealing with what you created. However, they won't bring up the obvious "take him to my bed chambers". They say what Zleena did was vile, but then at the same time they have Regina claiming to be worst than his sister, but that's Once's double standard. If you aren't in the Snow's circle of friends, then forgiveness isn't easy. I actually think we tend to glss Snow over as super forgiving when she really isn't, only to those close to her, at most.

      But on the issue of these criminal acts, the issue in SB is that there is no justice system. It would seem the system is Emma (and some of the heroes) being judge, jury, and executioner.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      Utter solitude wrote:
      The instance that gets me is the Evil Queen saying "take him to my bed chamber".

      I know that they were drawing a parallel to their booty calls in Storybrooke. I get that. But that line... i didn't need to hear that lol. And if it had been a man saying that about a woman, even the casual fans would've been up in arms about it.

      I wouldn't have had a peoblem with Regina raping Graham and murdering him if they had delt with the consequences of it and Regina had been actually punished for it or atoned (so she can be redeemed), but they always neglect to mention the bad things she did (murder, rape, massace, regicide, abduction).
      It's more of an issue with Once's redemption plan. I wrote it down somewhere, but it's pretty much:

      1. Try to change

      2. Backslide

      3. Attempt self sacrifice

      4. Redeemed?

      5. Return to step 2

      I could excuse SB Regina and Graham because it's like playing God and dealing with what you created. However, they won't bring up the obvious "take him to my bed chambers". They say what Zleena did was vile, but then at the same time they have Regina claiming to be worst than his sister, but that's Once's double standard. If you aren't in the Snow's circle of friends, then forgiveness isn't easy. I actually think we tend to glss Snow over as super forgiving when she really isn't, only to those close to her, at most.

      But on the issue of these criminal acts, the issue in SB is that there is no justice system. It would seem the system is Emma (and some of the heroes) being judge, jury, and executioner.

      Emma's justice system is locking a guy who ruined her date with someone who shot someone among other despicable things. LOL...

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    • Storybrooke's "Justice" system is a topic for a different thread. (Let's face it, how much justice can there be when King George is the DA. But I Digress).

      What Regina did to Graham (in the EF) was clearly Rape, as he had no consent in the matter, but was coerced, nor was it even disguised.  what Hook did with many a bar wench falls under the category of date rape, though to be fair, the behavior was expected in the culture depicted, and the we don't know what level of consent there might have been (I'm not condoning the activity, i'm just commenting).

      What Zelena did to Robin is in a much grayer area.  Was it wrong? Absolutely, and on multiple levels. But was it rape? That is not as easy of a question to answer. Particularly considering that Zelena's goal was not sexual relations with Robin (that really was just a byproduct), but pretending to be his wife as a way to emotionally attack Regina. Now, the phone conversation between Regina and Zelena left a lot of implication that Zelena was enjoying that aspect of the marriage, but who knows the truth of that. I prefer, in this case, just to think of it as Zelena acted immorally (and on a large scale) and leave it at that.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Storybrooke's "Justice" system is a topic for a different thread. (Let's face it, how much justice can there be when King George is the DA. But I Digress).

      What Regina did to Graham (in the EF) was clearly Rape, as he had no consent in the matter, but was coerced, nor was it even disguised.  what Hook did with many a bar wench falls under the category of date rape, though to be fair, the behavior was expected in the culture depicted, and the we don't know what level of consent there might have been (I'm not condoning the activity, i'm just commenting).

      What Zelena did to Robin is in a much grayer area.  Was it wrong? Absolutely, and on multiple levels. But was it rape? That is not as easy of a question to answer. Particularly considering that Zelena's goal was not sexual relations with Robin (that really was just a byproduct), but pretending to be his wife as a way to emotionally attack Regina. Now, the phone conversation between Regina and Zelena left a lot of implication that Zelena was enjoying that aspect of the marriage, but who knows the truth of that. I prefer, in this case, just to think of it as Zelena acted immorally (and on a large scale) and leave it at that.

      Let's take a more realistic approach with two other characters. If James pretended to be David and slept with Snow, would it be rape?

      In order for it to not be rape there need to be consent. Robin never consented to sleep with Zelena, he never consented to sleep with Zelena disguised as Marian. The fact that Zelena didn't literally forced herself on Robin is not enough for it to not be rape. A drunk or drugged person probably would let the rapist do whatever, it would still be considered rape. The same applies here, Robin thought he was sleeping with his wife, turned out he didn't. Someone sexually and emotionally abused him, that's rape.

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    • Ruby ridinghood wrote:
      Why would they intend for it to be seen as rape when she didn't rape him?

      The thing is, Robin consented to have sex with Marian. The whole deception part of the rape laws come into play because Zelena used the disguise of Marian to have sex with Robin.

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    • I rewatched the show and was surprised at how much rape was going on. Regina as the Evil Queen removed the Huntsman's heart, and then basically used him as a sex toy. Hook probably did have sex with women who were too intoxicated to really consent when he was living life as a villain. Zelena used deception in the form of being disguised as someone who Robin Hood would consent to having sex with. King Arthur doesn't seem like he's been denied sex by Guinevere, so that means that the Sands of Avalon are the Enchanted Forest and Camelot equivelent of roofies. Looks like the Enchanted Forest needs its own Special Victims Unit.

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    • The legal definition of rape in American includes statutory rapes, and, yes, rape by deception. There have been cases of taking advantage of drunk people and of identical twins comitting rape by deception. Legally speaking, Zelena did rape Robin. If you take the verbatim meaning of rape to be "nonconsensual sex", then Zelena and Robin's relationship qualifies. Robin did not consent to have sex with Zelena. He consented to have sex with his wife Marian. Wether Zelena's actions are as morally despicable as forceful rape is irrelevant. Regina and Zelena have raped at least one person each along the lines of their lives, but that's no worse than mass murder, and I don't see why they can't come back from it and redeem like with all their other crimes.

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    • I think it's safe to say nearly all villains/ex-villians have showed some degree of preditory behavior. For example....

      Regina towards Graham.

      Zelena towards Robin.

      Rumple towards Belle.

      Killian towards Emma.

      Clearly it's in the villians handbook, which is fine. What's not is the show's handling of it. Every one of the above has been swept under the rug, with the exception of Zelena/Robin, and even that's getting to the point it's about to be. You can't tell me that a single positive memory of her, Regina is just so willing to act as though Zelena didn't rape her boyfriend. Robin's reaction was perfect. "Have you gone mad?" No, Robin, she has merely been the victim of the writers unwillingness to deal with the consquences of the things they have previously created.

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    • I found a part of a video mentioning about how Regina practically raped the huntsman. The link starts at that point of the video, so just continue watching from there :)

      https://youtu.be/XsylSb-Mwic?t=6m40s

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    • She didn't practically rape him; that was outright rape. The show doesnt even have to acknowledge. Tearing someone's heart out and usin mind control is no better than roofie-ing them

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    • Is rape really worse than murder and torture though? Both of which we have seen multiple instances and explicitly in the show, unlike the "rape", which mostly takes place bts.

      Shouldn't we look past the labelling and focus on the actual trauma suffered by the victims? Even if Zelena did technically rape Robin by tricking him into sleeping with her, how is it any worse than Rumple torturing him after catching him stealing from the castle? Which act do you think caused more psychological and physical damage to Robin? And yet Robin still saved Rumple when he was about to die of his blackened heart without mentioning what happened between them. How come nobody brings up the torture that Rumple did to Robin?

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    • MOD Interrupt

      Let's be careful on the direction of this thread. we are not here to compare whether one particular crime is any worse than another.

      This thread is not to talk about the physical or pschological damage caused by any crime. The original question posed relates to Zelena's "relationship" with Robin, and Regina's relationship with Graham/the Huntsman, and more generally the subject of rape as it is presented and dealt with (or not dealt with) on the show.  Let's try to keep the conversation confined to these parameters.

      On the bright side, I would like to commend everyone for handling the subject matter maturely. Let's see if we can keep that up.

      I return you to your regularly scheduled discussion, already in progress.

      End MOD Interrupt.

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    • The subject of this thread is rape and how the show does or not deal with it. Asking "What's so bad about it?" and comparing it to something else is absolutely on topic.


      That said, I can't speak to every situation, but US law tells us that some crimes are worse than others in how they're classified and punished. For example, murder is one of the most serious crimes a person can commit. Even that has degrees to it (first, second, aggravated, manslaughter, etc). In my state, simple assault (the kind that doesn't have an additional factor like a gun, or a teacher committing it, etc) is a first (highest) degree misdemeanor. Rape is a first degree felony.

      So when you ask which would have been worse/more damaging for Robin, a rape by deception or assault by Rumple (I can't remember what the show detailed/implied, I'm assuming assault) even our laws tell us rape is worse. And while the act might not have been all that physically damaging, it definitely would have been more psychologically damaging.

      Murder is bad. Rape is bad. Assault is bad. And this is definitely a show that throws all three around (and more) with little consequence.

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    • The problem with classification is that some may see others a more major crimes and eventually be partial towards the others.

      Stealing the last meal of a poor family is terrible, but it won't get you a bigger sentence than let's say, sexual assault. The thing is, sexual assault maybe more damaging pyschologically, but we will stil; have to remember that that thief is still a person just like the assaulter who both made terrible choices.

      Now, it is true that the show tosses all these around too lightly. I think with redmeption the show should make the major offenses more rare and really tense. I mean, half of the characters flippantly kill other people making them more like sociopaths.

      Noone goes from I'm okay with life to I'm going to kil this woman (Marian) and then changes their mind. Noone goes, "I'm going to kill my girlfriend's family" to "I should reconsider" and come out being considered a hero.

      Robin's distrust of Zelena was totally fine and what the show tells the audience is that it's alright to blackmail (through love) to get what you want. Regina telling Robin to give Zelena the baby is shown to be in the right at the end of the day, but they rarely settled that issue when he was promptly killed off and guess who gets the baby!

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    • The issue is that society generally acknowledges torture and murder as horrible things, and is much more ambiguous when it comes to rape, especially female-on-male, or same-sex rape. And further especially if it's rape by deception. The show not acknowledging it as such is perpetuating a societal pattern that gaslights victims. It's a slap in the face to victims and activists; Once is basically saiyng "Our show is pretty adult, let's make rape a part of the plot. But our show is not mature enough to acknowlege it and deal with the consequences for the vitims". It's not a conscious thing, it's something thrown upon us by subtle social cues. The wirters aren't to blame, but that's the message they're sending. When you write about something that might be problematic, you bother to look it up. If you don't, then you listen to the people who called you out and do your best to fix it. They did everything possible to avoid acknowledging Robin's pain and to avoid showing Zelena as guilty of rape. The only mention of it being anything near rape was in 5x10. And one sentence that didn't even outright name it. She tortures Rumpel? Painted as a villain. She kills Marian? Painted as a villain. She rapes Robin? She's undergoing redemption and Robin has to give her a chance.

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    • Playing the devil's advocate here. And before I do, let me be clear that I find what Zelena did to Robin to be terrible.

      The only reason I don't focus on the sexual aspect of what Zelena did is that she had magically co-opted Marian's Identity.  This was an extreme and magical case of complete Identity theft. And part of assuming the role of Marian included having sexual relations with Robin.  It was one piece of the puzzle.  In order to maintain her cover (which she was actively trying to do), she had to have sexual relations with Robin.

      Given their circumstances, we don't know if Zelena (as Marian) initiated the activities, or if she just participated to maintain her cover. Or Both.

      Is what Zelena did wrong? Absolutely. Is what she did rape? that is debateable, even by today's legal standards.  From a strictly legal standpoint, you'd have an easier chance of convicting Zelena on Identity Theft than on any sex based charges.

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    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

      I can give people a pass on glamouring as other people and whether it's a crime when magic is involved, I'd say not really.

      Rape by deception is through: fraud, impersonation, or trickery. Zelena impersonated Marian, so it is rape.

      Now, if Zelena was a good guy, trying to get the Evil Robin's trust to spill his evil plans and pretended to be his wife and had sex with him........people tend to give that person a pass, but it's still wrong. Now, it is also right to consider if Robin initiated it, but as far as we know, we don't.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

      I can give people a pass on glamouring as other people and whether it's a crime when magic is involved, I'd say not really.

      Rape by deception is through: fraud, impersonation, or trickery. Zelena impersonated Marian, so it is rape.

      Now, if Zelena was a good guy, trying to get the Evil Robin's trust to spill his evil plans and pretended to be his wife and had sex with him........people tend to give that person a pass, but it's still wrong. Now, it is also right to consider if Robin initiated it, but as far as we know, we don't.

      Really?! using Wikipedia as a source to support your arguments is a bit wrong. Most of my professers would have immediately flunked me if I had used wikipedia as a source. But, whatever.

      But even in the article, the whole situation that Zelena and Robin had fell into a gray area that, from a legal standpoint, is going to be hard to provide a judgment.

      And as for giving people a pass on glamouring, sorry, but Identity theft is a huge no-no in my book, and Zelena is definitly guilty of that by any legal standard. (But that is off topic).

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deceptionI can give people a pass on glamouring as other people and whether it's a crime when magic is involved, I'd say not really.

      Rape by deception is through: fraud, impersonation, or trickery. Zelena impersonated Marian, so it is rape.

      Now, if Zelena was a good guy, trying to get the Evil Robin's trust to spill his evil plans and pretended to be his wife and had sex with him........people tend to give that person a pass, but it's still wrong. Now, it is also right to consider if Robin initiated it, but as far as we know, we don't.

      Really?! using Wikipedia as a source to support your arguments is a bit wrong. Most of my professers would have immediately flunked me if I had used wikipedia as a source. But, whatever.

      But even in the article, the whole situation that Zelena and Robin had fell into a gray area that, from a legal standpoint, is going to be hard to provide a judgment.

      And as for giving people a pass on glamouring, sorry, but Identity theft is a huge no-no in my book, and Zelena is definitly guilty of that by any legal standard. (But that is off topic).

      Using Wikipedia to tell you that the term does exist is perfectly fine. I'm not going to go out of my way to read through pages of litigation to discover and ephasize rape by deception.

      From a magical and legal standpoint, Zelena would be found guilty and I'm pretty sure Zelena would pretty much confess to it based on what she has said. Zelena's not one to not confess that she killed Neal and she glamoured herself as Marian, killed Marian, and then took her place as Roin's wife. If Rumple has a tape recorder or someone grab a dreamcatcher, she'd be guilty as she could ever be.

      The issue you present is Robin is the victim and you're not having sympathy for him. Who cares if it's proveable in the court of nonmagicals! Robin was voilated via deception to which Zelena admits and Robin admits and Baby Hood is also proof.

      In brevity, just because a court deems a person not guilty, doesn't mean that that perpetrator didn't do the crime. We know that Robin was decieved into sexual relations, we have both sides agreeing, so it is what it is.

      (I know playing Devil's advocate and so)

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    • In brevity, just because a court deems a person not guilty, doesn't mean that that perpetrator didn't do the crime. We know that Robin was decieved into sexual relations, we have both sides agreeing, so it is what it is.

      Well, that statement I can not argue. One that argues against truth is a fool. Zelena is guilty of having sex under false pretenses with Robin, I think we can all agree on that. The situation is bad and wrong. And the show is doing a poor job of handling the entire situation, I think we can all also agree on that.

      And for the record, I do have a lot of sympathy for Robin (and for Sean). Robin got the shaft by the way the stories played out over the past 2 seasons. Robin is not only a victim of Zelena's schemes, but of poor character developement by the writers (Can that be classified as a criminal act? Don't answer that, the question and statement are off-topic (and pointless))

      I think one sentiment that I see out of this thread (and other threads) is that people feel that Regina, Zelena, Gold, and others are given free passes towards redemption without having to face the consequences of their past actions (not just Rape, but all of the atrocities committed). And while it is definitly a worthwhile discussion, I would say a discussion on this topic would need to be handled outside of a discussion on how rape is portrayed and what constitutes rape.

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    • Oh, well, I would agree. Sexual stuff aside, Regina, Rumple, and Hook are currently mass murderers/ serial killers. That is something I think is glossed over and treated like commonplace. If someone is to kill, I like when it is under emotional turmoil.

      Emma wants to axe Zelena because how she killed Neal and caused so much pain. Regina kills her father because she's miserable and wants her happiness. Those are wonderfully put. But then they wanted their villains to be reddemed and have their cake too. It would get hard to feel for Regina in season 2, when they follow that up with her having an entire village slaughtered. Same for Hook having angst times with Emma talking about the jewelry he collected from men he killed. Either we get desensitized to the murder and partially accept it, or we see that these people are terrible, terrible, terrible.

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    • What Zelena did WAS rape.  Forcing sex by deception.  If the genders had been reversed.....  OH.  MY.  GOD!  It is NOT ok just because the guy "got him some".  (What a vile, perverted attitude.)

      From justice.gov:  "The new definition of rape is: “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” The definition is used by the FBI to collect information from local law enforcement agencies about reported rapes."

      Key phrase:  "without consent of the victim."  Robin did NOT give consent to Zelena.  Graham did NOT give consent to Regina. 

      Same with Regina and Graham, including both EF and SB, because SHE knew she was being deceitful and Graham did not even know who he was.  Like Emma said when she discovered him sneaking out of Regina's window:  "Disgusting."  

      It is clear that this issue will never be "addressed" as some want on the show.  All of these "acts" are long past in the characters' histories.  Even Zelena has now turned a corner for good.  They are on their way to redemption.  Regina is ahead of the game, but Zelena, being as intelligent as she is, will catch up to her sister's "goodness level."

      Looking forward to Season 6!!!!!!!!!

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    • I would actually like to point out [Please don't dislike or hate me for this?]

      Although this is inline of one of the top things to do to harm another animal (All Animals including Humans) I think there should be more awareness of the harm it does.

      I have not ever experienced it and would never want too, and would never want to inflict it onto anyone else and I wish all animals would stop doing it.  (However this will never stop)

      The thing is if we keep brushing it under the carpet and pushing it futher down the rabbit hole, we will never truly encourage animals to stop doing it, regardless of any circumstance.  It's like Rascism, Murder, White Police Officers Killing Black People in USA **Without Reason** **Without any Justification too,** Shootings, Stabings, Political Power Problems, Unnessessary War, The Allowence of Russia to host and be involved in all major sporting event's even though they had large Drugging Scandles, Religion Struggles (Where people are being Litterally Brainwashed into believing in something that's not there, its fictional whatever you are told, whichever brand you are being pursude to endorse - Christianity - Muslimism - Jewish Following - Hinduism or any other [My Honest Opinion of that])  Lets talk about it, not rubbish anyone for having this opinion.  Just because a staggering 95% of the Globe is being Brainwashed, doesn't make it a real concept. A question on that,  When you walked into the Church (when you can remember) were you **Given the opportunity to have an open discussiion, whereby you could ask any questions about anything to do with "God" and given a definitive answer.  An example - "Vicar / Priest Have you ever seen God?"  If the answer was - "God comes in all different disguises" Then No they haven't!  Unfortunately (Just Saying) its the most highest level of psychosis there is, to think that everything is of one matter when its not."  Im going to get slaughtered for saying that I know!  So when a Child has an Imaginary Friend thats the same as believing in God, it is not there.  If I have broken the rules and go to Lucifer's Pad (Hell), I'd like it down there, but that's fictional too.  So I wont be.

      There are so many other things to discuss, however it would take an eternaty to put it all down here, however we should not be afraid to speak up, if we all did this then the authorities would have to listen, take note and take charge on these awefull acts.


      If I have stepped over the line I do truly regret that, however I will never apologise for it.

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    • DearieJustDearie wrote: I would actually like to point out [Please don't dislike or hate me for this?]

      Although this is inline of one of the top things to do to harm another animal (All Animals including Humans) I think there should be more awareness of the harm it does.

      I have not ever experienced it and would never want too, and would never want to inflict it onto anyone else and I wish all animals would stop doing it.  (However this will never stop)

      The thing is if we keep brushing it under the carpet and pushing it futher down the rabbit hole, we will never truly encourage animals to stop doing it, regardless of any circumstance.  It's like Rascism, Murder, White Police Officers Killing Black People in USA **Without Reason** **Without any Justification too,** Shootings, Stabings, Political Power Problems, Unnessessary War, The Allowence of Russia to host and be involved in all major sporting event's even though they had large Drugging Scandles, Religion Struggles (Where people are being Litterally Brainwashed into believing in something that's not there, its fictional whatever you are told, whichever brand you are being pursude to endorse - Christianity - Muslimism - Jewish Following - Hinduism or any other [My Honest Opinion of that])  Lets talk about it, not rubbish anyone for having this opinion.  Just because a staggering 95% of the Globe is being Brainwashed, doesn't make it a real concept. A question on that,  When you walked into the Church (when you can remember) were you **Given the opportunity to have an open discussiion, whereby you could ask any questions about anything to do with "God" and given a definitive answer.  An example - "Vicar / Priest Have you ever seen God?"  If the answer was - "God comes in all different disguises" Then No they haven't!  Unfortunately (Just Saying) its the most highest level of psychosis there is, to think that everything is of one matter when its not."  Im going to get slaughtered for saying that I know!  So when a Child has an Imaginary Friend thats the same as believing in God, it is not there.  If I have broken the rules and go to Lucifer's Pad (Hell), I'd like it down there, but that's fictional too.  So I wont be.

      There are so many other things to discuss, however it would take an eternaty to put it all down here, however we should not be afraid to speak up, if we all did this then the authorities would have to listen, take note and take charge on these awefull acts.

      If I have stepped over the line I do truly regret that, however I will never apologise for it.

      Okay, first of all, that is completely off-topic. In addition, using words like "brainwashed" and "psychosis" to describe religious people is insulting toward those of our users who happen to be religious. And insults are not tolerated on this wiki. You would be wise to remember this in the future.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Nightlily wrote:

      DearieJustDearie wrote: I would actually like to point out [Please don't dislike or hate me for this?]

      Although this is inline of one of the top things to do to harm another animal (All Animals including Humans) I think there should be more awareness of the harm it does.

      I have not ever experienced it and would never want too, and would never want to inflict it onto anyone else and I wish all animals would stop doing it.  (However this will never stop)

      The thing is if we keep brushing it under the carpet and pushing it futher down the rabbit hole, we will never truly encourage animals to stop doing it, regardless of any circumstance.  It's like Rascism, Murder, White Police Officers Killing Black People in USA **Without Reason** **Without any Justification too,** Shootings, Stabings, Political Power Problems, Unnessessary War, The Allowence of Russia to host and be involved in all major sporting event's even though they had large Drugging Scandles, Religion Struggles (Where people are being Litterally Brainwashed into believing in something that's not there, its fictional whatever you are told, whichever brand you are being pursude to endorse - Christianity - Muslimism - Jewish Following - Hinduism or any other [My Honest Opinion of that])  Lets talk about it, not rubbish anyone for having this opinion.  Just because a staggering 95% of the Globe is being Brainwashed, doesn't make it a real concept. A question on that,  When you walked into the Church (when you can remember) were you **Given the opportunity to have an open discussiion, whereby you could ask any questions about anything to do with "God" and given a definitive answer.  An example - "Vicar / Priest Have you ever seen God?"  If the answer was - "God comes in all different disguises" Then No they haven't!  Unfortunately (Just Saying) its the most highest level of psychosis there is, to think that everything is of one matter when its not."  Im going to get slaughtered for saying that I know!  So when a Child has an Imaginary Friend thats the same as believing in God, it is not there.  If I have broken the rules and go to Lucifer's Pad (Hell), I'd like it down there, but that's fictional too.  So I wont be.

      There are so many other things to discuss, however it would take an eternaty to put it all down here, however we should not be afraid to speak up, if we all did this then the authorities would have to listen, take note and take charge on these awefull acts.

      If I have stepped over the line I do truly regret that, however I will never apologise for it.

      Okay, first of all, that is completely off-topic. In addition, using words like "brainwashed" and "psychosis" to describe religious people is insulting toward those of our users who happen to be religious. And insults are not tolerated on this wiki. You would be wise to remember this in the future.


      As stated I did say I'd regret if I stepped over the line.  However this is my opinion, nothing wrong with that, in an addition to this I'd just like to back myself here by saying that I have not gone off topic, I am just pointing out some things that alike to Rape are Taboo'ed by the Brushing under Carpets, "Let's not discuss" etc.

      Futhermore, I used to follow Christianity as a child until my early teens' (unfortunately) however I learned the easy way that I had a choice to believe or not believe, I choose not to, because of this statement by the Vicar - Priest of *when I was a teenager - Timing* Citing a reference from the Bible, then saying - I remember this so well>  "And it was he who told me, the father, the holy ghost, told me this, that if I defy him and everything he tells me, then I will **Go to Hell.**  He Told me this message through his son Jesus, he thus pronounced in great detail, details that if you, you do not believe in him you shall one day be bannished to **Hell**!  We must Pray and be humble of everything he does and if we do we might seek our path to the light in his house!"

      "Ok Really?"  Am I supposed to go along with that?"

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • It is not against the rules to criticize religion, but choose your words wisely. Insults are not permitted.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • DearieJustDearie wrote:
      I would actually like to point out [Please don't dislike or hate me for this?]

      Although this is inline of one of the top things to do to harm another animal (All Animals including Humans) I think there should be more awareness of the harm it does.

      I have not ever experienced it and would never want too, and would never want to inflict it onto anyone else and I wish all animals would stop doing it.  (However this will never stop)

      The thing is if we keep brushing it under the carpet and pushing it futher down the rabbit hole, we will never truly encourage animals to stop doing it, regardless of any circumstance.  It's like Rascism, Murder, White Police Officers Killing Black People in USA **Without Reason** **Without any Justification too,** Shootings, Stabings, Political Power Problems, Unnessessary War, The Allowence of Russia to host and be involved in all major sporting event's even though they had large Drugging Scandles, Religion Struggles (Where people are being Litterally Brainwashed into believing in something that's not there, its fictional whatever you are told, whichever brand you are being pursude to endorse - Christianity - Muslimism - Jewish Following - Hinduism or any other [My Honest Opinion of that])  Lets talk about it, not rubbish anyone for having this opinion.  Just because a staggering 95% of the Globe is being Brainwashed, doesn't make it a real concept. A question on that,  When you walked into the Church (when you can remember) were you **Given the opportunity to have an open discussiion, whereby you could ask any questions about anything to do with "God" and given a definitive answer.  An example - "Vicar / Priest Have you ever seen God?"  If the answer was - "God comes in all different disguises" Then No they haven't!  Unfortunately (Just Saying) its the most highest level of psychosis there is, to think that everything is of one matter when its not."  Im going to get slaughtered for saying that I know!  So when a Child has an Imaginary Friend thats the same as believing in God, it is not there.  If I have broken the rules and go to Lucifer's Pad (Hell), I'd like it down there, but that's fictional too.  So I wont be.

      There are so many other things to discuss, however it would take an eternaty to put it all down here, however we should not be afraid to speak up, if we all did this then the authorities would have to listen, take note and take charge on these awefull acts.


      If I have stepped over the line I do truly regret that, however I will never apologise for it.

      The thing with religion is you can't prove it doesn't exist, just as no one can prove that it does. Religion is completely faith based, you either believe or you don't. Furthurmore, I dislike organized religion, because it seems to cause more problems than it solves, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in a creation deity or what science has discovered. I don't think things have to be mutually exclusive.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Do not forget that this topic is largely about possible vile acts that some characters have underwent and how the show handled it. Discussions about politics and religion are not really on topic as it doesn't relate to the characters or the writers.

      At best, I can see the point of taboo topics that are brushed under the rug, but that has little to do with the show in particular. One of the many points presented was why have a vile act then ignore what it was? That's not tabling it because it's taboo, because then they would not have brought attention to it. The writers brought attention to what Zelena did to Robin a number of times, but never actually addressed it (imo) properly.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • The issue is actually rather simple: the writers want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, but theydon't have the screentime nor the willingness to write in scenes for charactsres discussing the nature of every bad deed they've done. If Zelena and Regina had actually talked more, instead of having screentime siphoned away for the CS show, we probably could've seen the issue acknowledged

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • DracoWombat wrote:
      The issue is actually rather simple: the writers want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, but theydon't have the screentime nor the willingness to write in scenes for charactsres discussing the nature of every bad deed they've done. If Zelena and Regina had actually talked more, instead of having screentime siphoned away for the CS show, we probably could've seen the issue acknowledged

      I don't think they want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, they are too immature to do that. They do it indeliberately without really thinking about the kind of messages they present such as Hook making rape comments, Zelena raping Robin, adulterous Robin, Hook jumping off the roof for attention, Rumple mansplaining Belle, abusive relationships overall - they actually think that all of those are examples of romance without realizing what they actually mean, but that what happens when the show is lazily written.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      DracoWombat wrote:
      The issue is actually rather simple: the writers want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, but theydon't have the screentime nor the willingness to write in scenes for charactsres discussing the nature of every bad deed they've done. If Zelena and Regina had actually talked more, instead of having screentime siphoned away for the CS show, we probably could've seen the issue acknowledged
      I don't think they want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, they are too immature to do that. They do it indeliberately without really thinking about the kind of messages they present such as Hook making rape comments, Zelena raping Robin, adulterous Robin, Hook jumping off the roof for attention, Rumple mansplaining Belle, abusive relationships overall - they actually think that all of those are examples of romance without realizing what they actually mean, but that what happens when the show is lazily written.

      Yes, because no other show uses things like rape or murder or suicide or anything else just for shock value and forgets about it a few episodes later. Only Once does that. Because all other showrunners are vastly surperior to Adam and Eddy. How silly of us to all forget this. Thank God we have you here Farerb, I don't know how we would manage otherwise.

      </sarcasm>

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      DracoWombat wrote:
      The issue is actually rather simple: the writers want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, but theydon't have the screentime nor the willingness to write in scenes for charactsres discussing the nature of every bad deed they've done. If Zelena and Regina had actually talked more, instead of having screentime siphoned away for the CS show, we probably could've seen the issue acknowledged
      I don't think they want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, they are too immature to do that. They do it indeliberately without really thinking about the kind of messages they present such as Hook making rape comments, Zelena raping Robin, adulterous Robin, Hook jumping off the roof for attention, Rumple mansplaining Belle, abusive relationships overall - they actually think that all of those are examples of romance without realizing what they actually mean, but that what happens when the show is lazily written.
      Yes, because no other show uses things like rape or murder or suicide or anything else just for shock value and forgets about it a few episodes later. Only Once does that. Because all other showrunners are vastly surperior to Adam and Eddy. How silly of us to all forget this. Thank God we have you here Farerb, I don't know how we would manage otherwise.

      </sarcasm>

      So if other shows do it then that's fine? This is getting ridiculous, you always use strawman arguments and you don't prove anything. I'm not talking about other shows, when I'm in other shows' forums, I'll talk about them, I can go on and on about the overuse of rape on GoT as a plot device or only for shock value, especially Sansa's rape, which was really unnecessary, but this isn't a GoT forum, is it? This is an OUAT forum so we are talking about this show, their messages, their context.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      DracoWombat wrote:
      The issue is actually rather simple: the writers want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, but theydon't have the screentime nor the willingness to write in scenes for charactsres discussing the nature of every bad deed they've done. If Zelena and Regina had actually talked more, instead of having screentime siphoned away for the CS show, we probably could've seen the issue acknowledged
      I don't think they want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, they are too immature to do that. They do it indeliberately without really thinking about the kind of messages they present such as Hook making rape comments, Zelena raping Robin, adulterous Robin, Hook jumping off the roof for attention, Rumple mansplaining Belle, abusive relationships overall - they actually think that all of those are examples of romance without realizing what they actually mean, but that what happens when the show is lazily written.
      Yes, because no other show uses things like rape or murder or suicide or anything else just for shock value and forgets about it a few episodes later. Only Once does that. Because all other showrunners are vastly surperior to Adam and Eddy. How silly of us to all forget this. Thank God we have you here Farerb, I don't know how we would manage otherwise.

      </sarcasm>

      So if other shows do it then that's fine? This is getting ridiculous, you always use strawman arguments and you don't prove anything. I'm not talking about other shows, when I'm in other shows' forums, I'll talk about them, I can go on and on about the overuse of rape on GoT as a plot device or only for shock value, especially Sansa's rape, which was really unnecessary, but this isn't a GoT forum, is it? This is an OUAT forum so we are talking about this show, their messages, their context.

      But the problem is your arguments make it sound like this is a problem that is exclusive to Once, by saying that the show is lazily written, and immature, and some of your other comments. If all (or almost all) shows do it, they it is more a problem with how tv shows are written in general, not specifically Once. Thus, your agrument holds no value, because you are taking a general problem with tv shows, and making it into a Once problem.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      DracoWombat wrote:
      The issue is actually rather simple: the writers want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, but theydon't have the screentime nor the willingness to write in scenes for charactsres discussing the nature of every bad deed they've done. If Zelena and Regina had actually talked more, instead of having screentime siphoned away for the CS show, we probably could've seen the issue acknowledged
      I don't think they want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, they are too immature to do that. They do it indeliberately without really thinking about the kind of messages they present such as Hook making rape comments, Zelena raping Robin, adulterous Robin, Hook jumping off the roof for attention, Rumple mansplaining Belle, abusive relationships overall - they actually think that all of those are examples of romance without realizing what they actually mean, but that what happens when the show is lazily written.
      Yes, because no other show uses things like rape or murder or suicide or anything else just for shock value and forgets about it a few episodes later. Only Once does that. Because all other showrunners are vastly surperior to Adam and Eddy. How silly of us to all forget this. Thank God we have you here Farerb, I don't know how we would manage otherwise.

      </sarcasm>

      So if other shows do it then that's fine? This is getting ridiculous, you always use strawman arguments and you don't prove anything. I'm not talking about other shows, when I'm in other shows' forums, I'll talk about them, I can go on and on about the overuse of rape on GoT as a plot device or only for shock value, especially Sansa's rape, which was really unnecessary, but this isn't a GoT forum, is it? This is an OUAT forum so we are talking about this show, their messages, their context.
      But the problem is your arguments make it sound like this is a problem that is exclusive to Once, by saying that the show is lazily written, and immature, and some of your other comments. If all (or almost all) shows do it, they it is more a problem with how tv shows are written in general, not specifically Once. Thus, your agrument holds no value, because you are taking a general problem with tv shows, and making it into a Once problem.

      I was talking about the rape, which even when it's used as shock value, it is still treated as rape while on OUAT it's not, it is covered by lots of magic and distractions, they don't treat it as if rape happened (and no a hand wave comment does not count *Lazy*). While I have issues with other show's wroting at times, lazily written is reserved to OUAT and A&E the most immature show runners out there that I have ever seen.

      And again, just because something happens on other shows, doesn't mean it should happen on this show. It's like saying that other shows are bad so it's ok for this show to be bad.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I wouldn't say that such a deed is always used for shock value. There's no reason to attack the writers and Adam and Eddy by essentially name calling since none of us know them personally or enough to judge.

      The brought it up a number of times in Zelena's case. They didn't outright call it that, but I can let that slide as it's a "family" show. However, they responded to it poorly. First, they shouldn't just claim "It's fantasy and magic, no big deal" which they sort of did at first. The major problem is not "using it for shock value" as I don't think they did: the pregnancy was the shocking part and anyway they did it would have been would have been the same violation.

      The issue is how in-show the response was and the writing around it. From an in-show perspective, Robin is violated, honor-bound as that's who he is, joyful to have a daughter, afraid of Regina knowing, antagonized by the criminal, honor-bound to separate himself from his children, experiences the criminal not-apologize to him (but instead sort of to Regina), Regina side with the criminal, separating him from his daughter and essentially leading to his death leaving two children fatherless while the focus of the sadness isn't the victim or his kids but on the criminal and the girlfriend that influenced/ affected those poor decisions.

      But besides, Robin and Graham who both died (Hmm, a pattern), it's still the case that the show I would agree wants to go for showing how terrible the viallins can be and thus their crimes look a bit whitewashed as it's not that easy to come back in redemption when you're a mass murderer, sexual violator, and so much more.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      DracoWombat wrote:
      The issue is actually rather simple: the writers want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, but theydon't have the screentime nor the willingness to write in scenes for charactsres discussing the nature of every bad deed they've done. If Zelena and Regina had actually talked more, instead of having screentime siphoned away for the CS show, we probably could've seen the issue acknowledged
      I don't think they want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, they are too immature to do that. They do it indeliberately without really thinking about the kind of messages they present such as Hook making rape comments, Zelena raping Robin, adulterous Robin, Hook jumping off the roof for attention, Rumple mansplaining Belle, abusive relationships overall - they actually think that all of those are examples of romance without realizing what they actually mean, but that what happens when the show is lazily written.
      Yes, because no other show uses things like rape or murder or suicide or anything else just for shock value and forgets about it a few episodes later. Only Once does that. Because all other showrunners are vastly surperior to Adam and Eddy. How silly of us to all forget this. Thank God we have you here Farerb, I don't know how we would manage otherwise.

      </sarcasm>

      So if other shows do it then that's fine? This is getting ridiculous, you always use strawman arguments and you don't prove anything. I'm not talking about other shows, when I'm in other shows' forums, I'll talk about them, I can go on and on about the overuse of rape on GoT as a plot device or only for shock value, especially Sansa's rape, which was really unnecessary, but this isn't a GoT forum, is it? This is an OUAT forum so we are talking about this show, their messages, their context.
      But the problem is your arguments make it sound like this is a problem that is exclusive to Once, by saying that the show is lazily written, and immature, and some of your other comments. If all (or almost all) shows do it, they it is more a problem with how tv shows are written in general, not specifically Once. Thus, your agrument holds no value, because you are taking a general problem with tv shows, and making it into a Once problem.
      I was talking about the rape, which even when it's used as shock value, it is still treated as rape while on OUAT it's not, it is covered by lots of magic and distractions, they don't treat it as if rape happened (and no a hand wave comment does not count *Lazy*). While I have issues with other show's wroting at times, lazily written is reserved to OUAT and A&E the most immature show runners out there that I have ever seen.

      And again, just because something happens on other shows, doesn't mean it should happen on this show. It's like saying that other shows are bad so it's ok for this show to be bad.

      Well, this goes to the fact as if we even consider it rape or not. For me, I dislike considering what happened to Graham or Robin rape, because they were both aroused by themselves. I'm pretty sure Regina/Evil Queen wasn't sitting there with Graham/Huntsman's heart telling it (and therefore him) to get an erection in her bed chambers. Similarly, Robin was aroused by Zelena, because he thought she was Marian. Were both Graham and Robin tricked or incapacitated in some way, and was what Regina and Zelena did morally wrong, yes, but I don't view it as the same as a man or woman who is forcefully penetrated by something or someone.

      As for your other point, not saying just because a lot of shows do something doesn't mean it should be okay for Once to do it, but you have to at least recognize if the majority of shows do it, it is more a general problem with tv writers and not just Adam and Eddy. By saying, "well, all the other shows do it, but Once shouldn't just because all the others do", you are holding Once and Adam and Eddy to a much higher standard than everybody else. Which you can do, but don't try to twist that you are holding them to a much higher standard into that they are lazy and immature. They are lazy and immature because to you they are not allowed to do what you let all other showrunners do and appearently give a free pass to.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      DracoWombat wrote:
      The issue is actually rather simple: the writers want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, but theydon't have the screentime nor the willingness to write in scenes for charactsres discussing the nature of every bad deed they've done. If Zelena and Regina had actually talked more, instead of having screentime siphoned away for the CS show, we probably could've seen the issue acknowledged
      I don't think they want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, they are too immature to do that. They do it indeliberately without really thinking about the kind of messages they present such as Hook making rape comments, Zelena raping Robin, adulterous Robin, Hook jumping off the roof for attention, Rumple mansplaining Belle, abusive relationships overall - they actually think that all of those are examples of romance without realizing what they actually mean, but that what happens when the show is lazily written.
      Yes, because no other show uses things like rape or murder or suicide or anything else just for shock value and forgets about it a few episodes later. Only Once does that. Because all other showrunners are vastly surperior to Adam and Eddy. How silly of us to all forget this. Thank God we have you here Farerb, I don't know how we would manage otherwise.

      </sarcasm>

      So if other shows do it then that's fine? This is getting ridiculous, you always use strawman arguments and you don't prove anything. I'm not talking about other shows, when I'm in other shows' forums, I'll talk about them, I can go on and on about the overuse of rape on GoT as a plot device or only for shock value, especially Sansa's rape, which was really unnecessary, but this isn't a GoT forum, is it? This is an OUAT forum so we are talking about this show, their messages, their context.
      But the problem is your arguments make it sound like this is a problem that is exclusive to Once, by saying that the show is lazily written, and immature, and some of your other comments. If all (or almost all) shows do it, they it is more a problem with how tv shows are written in general, not specifically Once. Thus, your agrument holds no value, because you are taking a general problem with tv shows, and making it into a Once problem.
      I was talking about the rape, which even when it's used as shock value, it is still treated as rape while on OUAT it's not, it is covered by lots of magic and distractions, they don't treat it as if rape happened (and no a hand wave comment does not count *Lazy*). While I have issues with other show's wroting at times, lazily written is reserved to OUAT and A&E the most immature show runners out there that I have ever seen.

      And again, just because something happens on other shows, doesn't mean it should happen on this show. It's like saying that other shows are bad so it's ok for this show to be bad.

      Well, this goes to the fact as if we even consider it rape or not. For me, I dislike considering what happened to Graham or Robin rape, because they were both aroused by themselves. I'm pretty sure Regina/Evil Queen wasn't sitting there with Graham/Huntsman's heart telling it (and therefore him) to get an erection in her bed chambers. Similarly, Robin was aroused by Zelena, because he thought she was Marian. Were both Graham and Robin tricked or incapacitated in some way, and was what Regina and Zelena did morally wrong, yes, but I don't view it as the same as a man or woman who is forcefully penetrated by something or someone.

      As for your other point, not saying just because a lot of shows do something doesn't mean it should be okay for Once to do it, but you have to at least recognize if the majority of shows do it, it is more a general problem with tv writers and not just Adam and Eddy. By saying, "well, all the other shows do it, but Once shouldn't just because all the others do", you are holding Once and Adam and Eddy to a much higher standard than everybody else. Which you can do, but don't try to twist that you are holding them to a much higher standard into that they are lazy and immature. They are lazy and immature because to you they are not allowed to do what you let all other showrunners do and appearently give a free pass to.

      We had already settled this; rape is any sexual act without consent of at least one of the parties involved. Rape by deception is a thing. No, getting aroused is not the same thing as consent. And for all we know, yes, Regina could've pretty much used magic to induce sexual arousal in Graham.

      Graham was under mind control, he was unable to consent and thus it was rape. Robin consented to have sex with Marian, he never consented to have sex with Zelena and thus it is rape.

      Then again, everyone in this show, except for Charming and possibly Belle, are either abusers or sex offenders so I shouldn't even bother at this point.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • DracoWombat wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      DracoWombat wrote:
      The issue is actually rather simple: the writers want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, but theydon't have the screentime nor the willingness to write in scenes for charactsres discussing the nature of every bad deed they've done. If Zelena and Regina had actually talked more, instead of having screentime siphoned away for the CS show, we probably could've seen the issue acknowledged
      I don't think they want to introduce more mature plotlines into the show, they are too immature to do that. They do it indeliberately without really thinking about the kind of messages they present such as Hook making rape comments, Zelena raping Robin, adulterous Robin, Hook jumping off the roof for attention, Rumple mansplaining Belle, abusive relationships overall - they actually think that all of those are examples of romance without realizing what they actually mean, but that what happens when the show is lazily written.
      Yes, because no other show uses things like rape or murder or suicide or anything else just for shock value and forgets about it a few episodes later. Only Once does that. Because all other showrunners are vastly surperior to Adam and Eddy. How silly of us to all forget this. Thank God we have you here Farerb, I don't know how we would manage otherwise.

      </sarcasm>

      So if other shows do it then that's fine? This is getting ridiculous, you always use strawman arguments and you don't prove anything. I'm not talking about other shows, when I'm in other shows' forums, I'll talk about them, I can go on and on about the overuse of rape on GoT as a plot device or only for shock value, especially Sansa's rape, which was really unnecessary, but this isn't a GoT forum, is it? This is an OUAT forum so we are talking about this show, their messages, their context.
      But the problem is your arguments make it sound like this is a problem that is exclusive to Once, by saying that the show is lazily written, and immature, and some of your other comments. If all (or almost all) shows do it, they it is more a problem with how tv shows are written in general, not specifically Once. Thus, your agrument holds no value, because you are taking a general problem with tv shows, and making it into a Once problem.
      I was talking about the rape, which even when it's used as shock value, it is still treated as rape while on OUAT it's not, it is covered by lots of magic and distractions, they don't treat it as if rape happened (and no a hand wave comment does not count *Lazy*). While I have issues with other show's wroting at times, lazily written is reserved to OUAT and A&E the most immature show runners out there that I have ever seen.

      And again, just because something happens on other shows, doesn't mean it should happen on this show. It's like saying that other shows are bad so it's ok for this show to be bad.

      Well, this goes to the fact as if we even consider it rape or not. For me, I dislike considering what happened to Graham or Robin rape, because they were both aroused by themselves. I'm pretty sure Regina/Evil Queen wasn't sitting there with Graham/Huntsman's heart telling it (and therefore him) to get an erection in her bed chambers. Similarly, Robin was aroused by Zelena, because he thought she was Marian. Were both Graham and Robin tricked or incapacitated in some way, and was what Regina and Zelena did morally wrong, yes, but I don't view it as the same as a man or woman who is forcefully penetrated by something or someone.

      As for your other point, not saying just because a lot of shows do something doesn't mean it should be okay for Once to do it, but you have to at least recognize if the majority of shows do it, it is more a general problem with tv writers and not just Adam and Eddy. By saying, "well, all the other shows do it, but Once shouldn't just because all the others do", you are holding Once and Adam and Eddy to a much higher standard than everybody else. Which you can do, but don't try to twist that you are holding them to a much higher standard into that they are lazy and immature. They are lazy and immature because to you they are not allowed to do what you let all other showrunners do and appearently give a free pass to.

      We had already settled this; rape is any sexual act without consent of at least one of the parties involved. Rape by deception is a thing. No, getting aroused is not the same thing as consent. And for all we know, yes, Regina could've pretty much used magic to induce sexual arousal in Graham.

      Graham was under mind control, he was unable to consent and thus it was rape. Robin consented to have sex with Marian, he never consented to have sex with Zelena and thus it is rape.

      Then again, everyone in this show, except for Charming and possibly Belle, are either abusers or sex offenders so I shouldn't even bother at this point.

      And that's fine if you want to consider it rape. For me, I don't really like considering it rape, because I feel it cheapens actual rape in real life, where people can't control people with magic or shapeshift into actual loved ones. But that's me.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • That doesn't make these situations any less valid as rape. Rape by deception is a thing in the real world, too.

      It's an uncomfortable subject, to be sure.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CDA, it doesn't matter whether magic is used or not because it's the same principle.

      When someone pretends to be someone they are not (even twins or lookalikes) does such a deed, it's rape by deception. Zelena, for all simplicity's sake, pretended to be someone she's not and commited the act. It's rape by deception.

      When someone uses positions of power, drugs, etc to pass over someone's consent and commit the act, it's still rape.

      These are real life touchy subjects and the show gesturing (at the very least) towards those actions is iffy, but worse when those victims (on the show) end up dead while the other person sort of getting away scot-free (well, Zelena was imprisoned for a bit). That leaves certain viewers with a sense that there was no justice, no hope for a show that claims to be all about hope. What hope is there when people are destroyed and some even into oblivion.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • According to the writers recently, it's possble that Hades WAS lying and Robin does go to the afterlife...

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • DracoWombat wrote:
      According to the writers recently, it's possble that Hades WAS lying and Robin does go to the afterlife...

      Hardly relevant until it is shown onscreen. The assumption by anyone in the audience that doesn't read online interviews solely see Robin being completley obliterated. Occam's razor is typically used on anything you watch on screen: that whatever is said is true. TV shows tend to show hints that a person is lying by smiling or telltale signs that they are, but they didn't do them here so it would be assumed that he spoke the truth.

      Like Cora didn't lie (even though they said she might have), as far as she knew she did in my case because she had no reason to lie and Lancelot made it seem like he escaped without Cora's notice.

      Nonetheless, to not stray off-topic, he's dead and the writers said as much in that same interview, still.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • A Spy in the Mirror
        Preparing Editor Spell
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