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  • Eskaver
    Eskaver closed this thread because:
    Was heading towards disrespectful territory.
    23:48, August 5, 2017

    Okay, the title is a bit dramatic, or perhaps not dramatic enough.

    Hook's relationship with Emma is one of the many polarizing things in fandom lore; however, I could care less about who you ship Emma with. This is about Henry.

    From the Swan Song thread:

    "I have my problems with Hook. I have my problems with the show's sense of morality, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out and shouldn't take long to figure out that he shouldn't be trying to kill off his love's family. Say what you want about their relationship, but look underneath all the pretty and you see the ugly. He sat there happily condemning the beloved's family of people that he befriended to death, but then saw his beloved choking to change. That may not bother you, but let's recap:

    Hook is "killing"  or allowing the killing of:

    - Emma's parents, whom she worked hard to love and to find.

    - Emma's friends

    - But more importantly, Emma's son

    I may often hearken back to season 3 being the good old days, but nothing stood between Emma and her son. Not Regina, not her parents, and not love interest # 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Now, there's this pesky puppy love that pushing between Emma's love for her son and herself. Pretty much her romance with Hook is like the dagger to Rumple and Baelfire. Nothing ever stood between Rumple and Bae. Rumple crippled himself to see his son. Rumple became the dark One to save his son. But then the dagger came and risked the wellbeing of his son. Rumple's a bad, bad man. But replace Rumple with Emma, Bae with Henry and the dagger with Hook. Alter some of the situations and it's pretty much similar.

    I like Hook a bit and it's understandable that Emma has a love interest. It's even passable with the extreme levels of forgiveness, but at this point her relationship with Hook is hurting and has hurted relationship with Henry."

    Now many have complained that Regina dumping Henry for a while because of forest man was uncalled for, but this beat that by a mile. Emma has tarnished her son's first love, sucumbed to darkness, memory-wiped her family and friends for the love of this man she should have let die. Emma of old (aka before season 4 and onwards) didn't let anything stand in her way and her son's happiness because of her love for her son. Even Emma's annoying "Go back to NYC" was reasonable because she just wanted Henry to be happy. But now, she's devolved into someone else. This new Emma threatens her son's livelihood because of reasons. She ends of failing, not because of her parents or son, but because of a man that wandered into her life. But this isn't some feminist's verbage or something, it's just a clear observation.

    Emma never cred to pursue any relationship unless it ws good for her son and if it was best. During Neverland, she dismissed ThingOne and ThingTwo because her son was in danger. In season 3, she dismissed another start and what home was for her son's potential happiness. Even in seaosn 4, she's saved everyone. But now in 5a, she's seemingly not doing that anymore. She's trying to balance many types of love and where her love for her son usually won, it didn't.

    Emma;s a grown woman and she did make her own decisions, but so in recent events Hook and Emma's relationship has taken a turn for the worse.

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    • When I say those things in my Facebook group, everyone disagrees with that and says that Hook is a hero. And that's it. They don't want to discuss about Emma and Hook's relationship because Colin is too hot. They can't see the facts that you wrote in here because they LOVE Hook. Why? Because Colin is too hot. They ALWAYS try to not see the worst in Hook's personality. Because Colin is too hot. I'm really really tired of this sh*t. And because of Hook, no one loves Neal. Nobody wants to understand what he had been through all of those years (about 133 years at most I think). You are right. He was going to kill all of her family just because his crazy-selfish-girlfriend turned him into a Dark One. What did the others do to him anyway? What was Henry's fault? He didn't do anything. None of them did. The more episodes I see, the more hate grows in me for Hook. I wish we could go back the days where Henry is Emma's true love. 

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    • Yeah, I read the Facebook comment section and I have no clue why. It allways enrages me. It's partially why I dislike come characters because there's no room to dicuss characters, only to talk about how hot someone is. Even worse is when there are adults twice and three times my age!

      I would correct you by saying that Hook isn't the reason people dislike Neal. I didn't like Neal mostly because he seemed like a jerk. He didn't resonate with Bae and that why some tend to not like them, but he was rarely given the chance for the backstory why he changed.

      While I agree with you, I try to never endorse a hate train (even if my hatred slips through every now and again). My main issue is Emma of season 1-3 and even 4 at times held Henry as the highest regard and that is what this family show was always about "finding family" and familial true love, from the curse breaking and finding parents, to even Frozen teaching self-love. However, it seems that no matter how they demonstarte that they seem to exalt romantic love above everything else. But that's not the topic, note to myself.

      It's just that even towars the end, Emma's risking her life and her son's life, and her friends' and parent's life to save a man that just risked those same people's lives. If that's not enough, it's the basic fact that Henry's love seems to be not enough anymore. Not enough for Emma, not enough for Regina.

      Even the relationshiop is harming the story. Emma was suppose to learn that she shouldn;t give into selfishness to defy fate or something like that. But she's now ignoring that again for the same reason. Hopefully she learns that, but it leaves a poor taste in my mind.

      But back to the original point, Henry-Emma is falling at the hand or should I say hook of one particular person.

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    • I never had a problem with their relationship before this season. I actually thought they shared nice scenes together in season four such as the scene she shows him stuff from her past. I didn't like how it began and howthey needed to kill someone else so they would be together.

      About season 4, I don't think Hook was the most important person to Emma that time, I actually think it was Elsa and then it was Regina, but I didn't have a problem with that cause she was doing her job as the Savior in both times.

      This season, I couldn't stand him and their relationship, it was destructive for them and the people Emma cared about. However, the thing that really annoys me is how everyone acts as of he was a hero and how everyone is so supportive of Emma rescuing hom from hell and tag along for a family vacay and how they treat him as if he was this big noble hero, and it is a crime that they ruin Rumple's character for it. They should be saying "He tried to kill all of us, he is dangerous, we do not support this, you will find a different man who will treat you and your family and your son better" and I don't accept the excuse of it was the darkness, that is just crap.

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    • What I find annoying is that most people are stating that Hook is bad for Emma.  Frankly, I think it is the opposite.  She has poisoned their relationship more often than he ever had.  She was the one who maintained an emotional distance from him, despite his feelings for her.  She was the one who betrayed him in the giants' realm.  She was the one who resorted to physical abuse to interrogate him, when he was in the hospital during mid-Season 2.  She was the one who ignored his good advice to resist changing the timeline in order to save Marian.  She was the one who transformed him into a Dark One against his wishes.  Hook didn't make her that selfish.  Emma embraced her selfishness all on her own.


      Hook might not be a perfect person.  Neither is Emma.  But she has tainted their relationship a hell of a lot more than he has.  And I find it incredible that he was willing to reject his plan to kill the others and hurt Emma, because he saw Nimue choking her.  I think he forgave her too soon.


      And I cannot stand that so many fans want to condemn Hook and pretend that he is the negative aspect of their relationship, because they cannot accept the depth of Emma's flawed character.  That is just pathetic to me.

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    • CTrent29 wrote:
      What I find annoying is that most people are stating that Hook is bad for Emma.  Frankly, I think it is the opposite.  She has poisoned their relationship more often than he ever had.  She was the one who maintained an emotional distance from him, despite his feelings for her.  She was the one who betrayed him in the giants' realm.  She was the one who resorted to physical abuse to interrogate him, when he was in the hospital during mid-Season 2.  She was the one who ignored his good advice to resist changing the timeline in order to save Marian.  She was the one who transformed him into a Dark One against his wishes.  Hook didn't make her that selfish.  Emma embraced her selfishness all on her own.


      Hook might not be a perfect person.  Neither is Emma.  But she has tainted their relationship a hell of a lot more than he has.  And I find it incredible that he was willing to reject his plan to kill the others and hurt Emma, because he saw Nimue choking her.  I think he forgave her too soon.


      And I cannot stand that so many fans want to condemn Hook and pretend that he is the negative aspect of their relationship, because they cannot accept the depth of Emma's flawed character.  That is just pathetic to me.

      Half of those things you listed happened when they weren't together and I completely understood Emma in those situations.

      It just means that Hook knew very well who he's getting into bed with and Hook shouldn't have expected her to change for him.

      I agree that I never understood what he found in her as much as I don't understand what she found in him. This relationship is forced like Regina and Robin's.

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    • I will always remember the detriment of Emma's character with her treatment of Will. She expressedly locked him up for ruining her date. And then only gave the man a pop tart to eat.

      She, the orphan who we saw steal food to eat? She who has been locked up to a crime that she didn't commit? That is how you going to treat a guy. A guy that has been assaulted by Hook and who threatened Will to not say anything. And we can't blame that on "The Dark One" either.

      Also, she didn't lock Hook up after shooting Belle (he got shot). And also thinking it cool to allow said person to stay with a guy several times to protect her??? 

      Oh, sometimes she forgets she has a son that she has true love with. Really, being with Hook has not done one thing positive for her.

      And I refuse to accept the narrative that Emma Swan was fundmentally broken woman that wears leather to protect herself, and only a noble pirate can break her walls to love and for Emma wear white virginal dresses that don't fit Emma "bailbondsperson" Swan because that's the "real" her.

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    • It just means that Hook knew very well who he's getting into bed with and Hook shouldn't have expected her to change for him.


      Oh, it's Hook's fault?  Everyone else is at fault in their relationship with Emma, except Henry, who is child.  How typical of this show's fandom.  Still trying to make excuses for the precious Savior, this show's ultimate Mary Sue.  No wonder I despise her.

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    • A relationship always has mulitple parts. Both Emma and Hook are adults and knew what they were getting into, but that's not really the focus of the thread. Is Hook in danger because of being with Emma? Yeah, but I'm more about "Think of the children."

      If the relationship is harming the child than that's the biggest concern. Emma in season 1 eventually thought thta she might have been a negative influence in Henry's life and she was going to leave. She stayed to make sure for Henry's sake.

      She even thought for Henry's life in NYC where he was actually happy and not in danger by the next wacky hooha!

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    • CTrent29 wrote:
      It just means that Hook knew very well who he's getting into bed with and Hook shouldn't have expected her to change for him.


      Oh, it's Hook's fault?  Everyone else is at fault in their relationship with Emma, except Henry, who is child.  How typical of this show's fandom.  Still trying to make excuses for the precious Savior, this show's ultimate Mary Sue.  No wonder I despise her.

      So, you hate her because people don't hate her.

      Whatever floats your boat.

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    • I've definitely had an issue with Henry not being enough anymore, but that started for me in season 4 with Regina. When she was looking for the author because she wanted her "happy ending". There's truth in what Zelena says when she comments on Regina's lack of appreciation for what she has. She has a beautiful home, a cushy job, a son she loves- but she talks as if that means nothing and life is just constantly slapping her down, never letting her catch a break. She may say that Robin is only a part of it, but it still seems to be the deal breaker. 

      Anyway, yes. Emma taking her son to the underworld to save the man who would've let him be dragged there by force is pretty abhorrent to me. But nobody really matters now unless it aids a ship. Emma will let Belle be fooled again, she'll take her son to a dangerous world of death, Robin will leave his new born baby, Snow and David will leave Neal... none of it matters, because shipping.

      You know a fantasy villain that'd do well on the show these days? The Child Catcher. He'd have a field day with these neglectful idiots. He'd probably fill his cage to capacity before any of them quit making goo goo eyes at each other long enough to notice!

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    • So, you hate her because people don't hate her.'Whatever floats your boat. 


      I dislike Emma because many fans turn a blind eye to her mistakes and crimes.  I dislike Emma because the show's writers do the same . . . except when she is "the Dark One" and "evil".  I dislike Emma because of the hypocrisy that surrounds her character.  I mean  . . . for God's sake!  People are declaring that Hook is wrong for Emma, even when she was the one who turned him into a Dark One against his will.  He is to blame for her selfishness and stupidity?  That is just disturbing and wrong in many ways.  And if you cannot deal with my opinion . . . that is just too damn bad.

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    • CTrent29 wrote:
      So, you hate her because people don't hate her.'Whatever floats your boat. 


      I dislike Emma because many fans turn a blind eye to her mistakes and crimes.  I dislike Emma because the show's writers do the same . . . except when she is "the Dark One" and "evil".  I dislike Emma because of the hypocrisy that surrounds her character.  I mean  . . . for God's sake!  People are declaring that Hook is wrong for Emma, even when she was the one who turned him into a Dark One against his will.  He is to blame for her selfishness and stupidity?  That is just disturbing and wrong in many ways.  And if you cannot deal with my opinion . . . that is just too damn bad.

      Only the writers turn a blind eye and put her on a pedestal. Maybe some fans do. Emma has been selfish sonce season 3B. It is known.

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    • Farerb wrote:
      CTrent29 wrote:
      So, you hate her because people don't hate her.'Whatever floats your boat. 


      I dislike Emma because many fans turn a blind eye to her mistakes and crimes.  I dislike Emma because the show's writers do the same . . . except when she is "the Dark One" and "evil".  I dislike Emma because of the hypocrisy that surrounds her character.  I mean  . . . for God's sake!  People are declaring that Hook is wrong for Emma, even when she was the one who turned him into a Dark One against his will.  He is to blame for her selfishness and stupidity?  That is just disturbing and wrong in many ways.  And if you cannot deal with my opinion . . . that is just too damn bad.

      Only the writers turn a blind eye and put her on a pedestal. Maybe some fans do. Emma has been selfish sonce season 3B. It is known.

      Agreed, in part. However, I don't think the writers turn a blind eye. They just never have time for sufficient character development so we never actually see the characters for who they are and what they think, just plot, plot, plot and then rush all the development at the end.

      Anyhow, I made this thread because of Henry, not Emma. Hook and Emma's relationship is bad for Emma's.....relationship with Henry.

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    • P3nathan wrote: I've definitely had an issue with Henry not being enough anymore, but that started for me in season 4 with Regina. When she was looking for the author because she wanted her "happy ending". There's truth in what Zelena says when she comments on Regina's lack of appreciation for what she has. She has a beautiful home, a cushy job, a son she loves- but she talks as if that means nothing and life is just constantly slapping her down, never letting her catch a break. She may say that Robin is only a part of it, but it still seems to be the deal breaker. 

      Anyway, yes. Emma taking her son to the underworld to save the man who would've let him be dragged there by force is pretty abhorrent to me. But nobody really matters now unless it aids a ship. Emma will let Belle be fooled again, she'll take her son to a dangerous world of death, Robin will leave his new born baby, Snow and David will leave Neal... none of it matters, because shipping.

      You know a fantasy villain that'd do well on the show these days? The Child Catcher. He'd have a field day with these neglectful idiots. He'd probably fill his cage to capacity before any of them quit making goo goo eyes at each other long enough to notice!

      This is hilariously true. The mantra of OUAT seems like villains usually always have bad parents that led them to the path of darkness. Neglecting your children is the first step to pushing your children to villainy.

      Oh yeah, I'm surprised that so many people are trying to rationalize that it is alright to allow your 13 year old son to Underworld, especially in the same episode that Rumple said that it is an unpleasant place to go.

      Even if they aren't forced to, it doesn't make a lick of sense to voluntarily save a murderous pirate. Even though several characters have expressed how much they don't like Hook, the writers have thrown over single character close to Emma under the bus to prop Hook by making them out of nowhere care for him. Mind boggling.

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    • Honestly, I just don't like either of these characters, and them being together only makes it worse. Hook is the oh too cliched suave badass with a hard past, there is literally nothing else distinguishable from his character. Emma too, and she has her "walls", which was tolerable in S1, but now it's aggravating. Her family will clearly do anything for her, and she still keeps them at arms length. It's dumb.

      These two are the blandest of bland. At least with Neal, they had chemistry and he was willing to sacrifice everything for her. With the amount of screentime they waste on these two, they could be fleshing out other characters and giving the other "main" characters storylines. Like, oh, I don't know, Belle and Henry. Those two characters, whenever they get storylines, nearly always wind up in service of other characters. Neverland, it focused more on the characters trying to save Henry.

      Hook, I think, is mainly liked for his looks, which is not why you should like a character. I also agree the show is valuing romantic love too highly. Yes, it's great and some ships have it done really well (Snowing) but familial love shouldn't be undervalued. Which it is. Regina basically says she doesn't have a happy ending without Robin, and Emma without Hook, Gold seems to be the one character who values family as much as romance. Which doesn't fit with the show.

      And if they resurrect Hook, which would clearly be fanservice, I will lose all but a sliver of respect for the show. S1 one to S3 will always be the golden age of Once Upon a Time for me.

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    • And if they resurrect Hook, which would clearly be fanservice, I will lose all but a sliver of respect for the show. S1 one to S3 will always be the golden age of Once Upon a Time for me.


      If they resurrect Hook and he quickly forgives Emma for transforming him into a Dark One, then my respect for this show will lower even further. And that will tell me that Hook is simply another Belle, who quickly forgives one's lover for what they did. Emma gets away with too much crap, as it is.

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    • CTrent29 wrote:
      And if they resurrect Hook, which would clearly be fanservice, I will lose all but a sliver of respect for the show. S1 one to S3 will always be the golden age of Once Upon a Time for me.

      If they resurrect Hook and he quickly forgives Emma for transforming him into a Dark One, then my respect for this show will lower even further. And that will tell me that Hook is simply another Belle, who quickly forgives one's lover for what they did. Emma gets away with too much crap, as it is.

      Excuse me?!? Hook is the one who needs to forgive?!? If there's someone who needs to forgive is anyone who's not Emma or Hook. Seriously, why did you make him such a martyr?!? He killed Merlin cold blooded and he tried to kill everyone who's matter to Emma.

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    • Farerb wrote:
      CTrent29 wrote:
      And if they resurrect Hook, which would clearly be fanservice, I will lose all but a sliver of respect for the show. S1 one to S3 will always be the golden age of Once Upon a Time for me.

      If they resurrect Hook and he quickly forgives Emma for transforming him into a Dark One, then my respect for this show will lower even further. And that will tell me that Hook is simply another Belle, who quickly forgives one's lover for what they did. Emma gets away with too much crap, as it is.

      Excuse me?!? Hook is the one who needs to forgive?!? If there's someone who needs to forgive is anyone who's not Emma or Hook. Seriously, why did you make him such a martyr?!? He killed Merlin cold blooded and he tried to kill everyone who's matter to Emma.

      I think it's a bit more complex than that. Hook generally is self aware and tries to own up to his stuff, but Emma tends to wash it away. What CTrent is getting at is Emma's still ignoring what Hook wants because it's all about what she wants.

      I don't think Emma gets away with anything anymore than everyone else in the show. I'm pretty sure noone seems to have any real consequences.

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    • I don't think Emma gets away with anything anymore than everyone else in the show.


      I believe she does.  The only times she has been castigated for her actions were when she threatened to break up the Charming family dynamic or when she was the Dark One.  Otherwise . . . yeah, she gets away with a lot more than any other character on this show.  And she has owned up to her mistakes and crimes less than any other character on this show.  It's time Kitsis and Horowitz address this.

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    • I can't comment on Emma myself at this point but if what you say is true, Regina does the same thing with Henry and no one blinks, Henry included. I got a little annoyed with him in 4a when he just shrugged off Emma to be depressed that Regina didn't want to hang with him.

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    • If I said this surprised me, I'd be lying. I mean really, when was the last time anyone actually seemed to care about family on this show? The only thing that matters to anyone on this show is their significant other... No one particularly cares about their friends or their children. Like it has been pointed out, everybody is leaving their children just to go save some nutcase who just tried to kill them. I do, however, think that it is even worse that Emma and Regina allowed Henry to go with them! What sane parent would allow their child to go with them on a mission to Hell?! I doubt this will be a simple walk in the park, so the only way this makes ANY sense is if they are trying to get their son killed... And it is all because of Emma's, at most, few month relationship with a formerly (or not so formerly) blood-thirsty pirate...

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    • Found this post on Tumblr from before season 5 and thought it was relevant to the topic: 

      http://nothingeverlost.tumblr.com/post/122974938853/can-i-ask-why-you-think-emma-has-changed-in

      I'll quote what they say:

      "Let’s look at the Emma we first met.  We first see her at a restaurant on a job and her first real comment, as herself not the fake date, is “And the worst part of all is your wife. Your wife loves you so much that she bailed you out, and how do you repay that loyalty? You’re on a date.“  This guy not only left his family but he bankrupted them.  And Emma doesn’t take that well.  This sets up who Emma is.  She fights for the little people, the underdog.  This is the woman that’s going to save Storybrooke, not with one single gesture but by fighting for all the people.

      This is who Emma is.  We see it time and time again.  Emma stands up to Gold for Ashley.  She stands up against Regina for Henry.  She fights for Ava and Nicholas.  She gives Graham a chance.  She gives people chances and listens to them and when it’s a fight against a bully or stronger vs weaker she’s always there protecting who needs protecting.

      Take the scenarios from season 4 or late season 3 and put them in season 1.  Look at Belle calling Hook out on trying to kill her.  Season 1 Emma would have been in Belle’s corner and said that it’s totally understandable that Belle’s not comfortable with Hook.  Emma, however, shrugs it off when Hook brushes off killing her as extenuating circumstances and his ‘sorry?’ gets a bemused smile.  It’s almost a ‘isn’t that cute’ affectionate moment which mocks what Belle suffered at Hook’s hands.

      Look at Will.  Second season Emma finds a drunk man with a illustration from a book and she’d ask his story.  She might roll her eyes a bit, but Henry would probably point out it’s the Red Queen and Emma would ask about Wonderland with her ‘am I really talking about this’ tone and we’d have some answers and Will wouldn’t be a punching bag for Hook.  But no, now Emma locks him up and makes some blithe comment about him interrupting her date.  her attitude towards the very people that need her help has changed and not only is it OOC for Emma but it’s shitting behavior for a sheriff.  Will getting drunk gets him in jail but Hook shooting Belle didn’t get him a minute inside of a cell.  Hook keeping Archie tied up on his boat didn’t even get addressed.  

      And then there’s her relationship with Henry, which is almost non existent.  Of course it’s natural to confide in your boyfriend, but all emotional scenes are now with Hook because it’s the only way to humanize Hook (making him the supportive BF) and to give him a purpose.  Otherwise he’s just standing around looking pretty, carrying things around and sort of being in the background.  But this leaves no time for Emma’s relationship with her mother or her son.  Not a scene with baby Neal musing about what it would have been to raise her son.  And now Henry’s living with Regina and Emma doesn’t make a single comment.  It’s not addressed at all; we skip from Regina ignoring her son to Henry pounding on the door to Regina taking Henry to school.  Emma, who’s main relationship for three years has been her son, and who has gone on this wonderful journey of ‘I can’t be a mom’ to being Henry’s mom, now has virtually nothing to do with him.  Last season she’s seriously considering not getting his memories back because of how many negative moments there were in his childhood, the abuse, and now she’s all ‘la di da, Regina can have him, gives me more time for Hook.’

      All of the things that Emma used to care about are being eroded to make Hook more important.  Emma is becoming less compassionate and she’s whitewashing Hook’s actions.  And while at least a little is about whitewashing Regina, most of it is about making CS work."

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    • Rwo

      THIS ^^^^

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    • Yeah, seriously... Absolutly everything in that is true. I don't think there is a better way to put it than that!

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    • Fareb. I absolulety agree. The only thing I disagree is that Hook/Emma is actually good for ratings. CS has never contributed positively for ratings. The type of audience that liked the show about season 1 Emma being strong (despite retroactive narrative, Emma was not broken and needed to be fixed by a man) do not like or interested in the cliche bad boy being redeem by good girl trope.


      But yes, it is unfortunate that they had to reduce Emma to skeevy Hook levels to make her compatiable with Hook. I think the writers did their characters a disservice to not have people (Emma or Robin) to find out unsavory things about their partners (like Robin knowing Regina's murder of Marian. They think that confronting those type of issues will cause not make the relationship work. 

      That is why Emma never finds out Hook's shady dealings behind their back. That is why the writers said that they cut the scene when Emma found out Regina killed Graham because they thought it will not work to build a friendship between them. That is why we never have any authenticate conversations between Emma and Hook. Blackmail, murder is always swept to the aside, forgiven in two minutes, or never discussed in the first place.


      I loved OUAT but if I have known the show was going to turn into women not having value unless they have a manly men in their loves where it trumps their familial relationships, I would have never bother. I watched because I wanted a true twist of a modern fairytale. Now the show is only modern in that we see fairytale characters using cell phones. 

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    • Ray Donovan wrote:
      Fareb. I absolulety agree. The only thing I disagree is that Hook/Emma is actually good for ratings. CS has never contributed positively for ratings. The type of audience that liked the show about season 1 Emma being strong (despite retroactive narrative, Emma was not broken and needed to be fixed by a man) do not like or interested in the cliche bad boy being redeem by good girl trope.


      But yes, it is unfortunate that they had to reduce Emma to skeevy Hook levels to make her compatiable with Hook. I think the writers did their characters a disservice to not have people (Emma or Robin) to find out unsavory things about their partners (like Robin knowing Regina's murder of Marian. They think that confronting those type of issues will cause not make the relationship work. 

      That is why Emma never finds out Hook's shady dealings behind their back. That is why the writers said that they cut the scene when Emma found out Regina killed Graham because they thought it will not work to build a friendship between them. That is why we never have any authenticate conversations between Emma and Hook. Blackmail, murder is always swept to the aside, forgiven in two minutes, or never discussed in the first place.


      I loved OUAT but if I have known the show was going to turn into women not having value unless they have a manly men in their loves where it trumps their familial relationships, I would have never bother. I watched because I wanted a true twist of a modern fairytale. Now the show is only modern in that we see fairytale characters using cell phones. 

      1. I don't know if CS is actually good for ratings or not, but I do know that abc and/or A&E think it is. Keep in mind that the audience has changed from season 1 and got less mature.


      2. I agree that they avoid their characters confronting each other or themselves, which is really a shame because that is the source of great drama, but them we won't have time having them chase a mushroom or other magical plot devices.

      3. The thing that I don't get is if they "planned" on redeeming Regina or making Hook Emma's love interest, why then they show them doing those irredeemable acts like raping Graham or beating Belle and torturing Archie...

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    • Think of it as hindsight, Farerb. Chances are they didn't know Regina would be quite popular so they likely didn't plan for her redemption to start as soon as it did. Likewise with developing pretty much Belle, Hook, etc.

      Anyhow, I would easily disagree with the post in part because Hook didn't really do that to Emma. It's more of a "Charming" problem that the writers developed. Remember how Snow stuck up for the little people Regina tryannized? Well, now since season 3b and onwards she only cares about herself and her circle of friends. Same with Emma.

      Real part is look how they all threat Belle. Belle was someone who was roughly there for several seasons and she's not given a care. When Belle asks for help, they just dismiss her and never notice if she isn't there. But that's a separate issue.

      I'll say that Hook-Emma is likely for the Teen demo as hilariously on IMDB or Hulu had Once under the Teen genre.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Think of it as hindsight, Farerb. Chances are they didn't know Regina would be quite popular so they likely didn't plan for her redemption to start as soon as it did. Likewise with developing pretty much Belle, Hook, etc.

      Anyhow, I would easily disagree with the post in part because Hook didn't really do that to Emma. It's more of a "Charming" problem that the writers developed. Remember how Snow stuck up for the little people Regina tryannized? Well, now since season 3b and onwards she only cares about herself and her circle of friends. Same with Emma.

      Real part is look how they all threat Belle. Belle was someone who was roughly there for several seasons and she's not given a care. When Belle asks for help, they just dismiss her and never notice if she isn't there. But that's a separate issue.

      I'll say that Hook-Emma is likely for the Teen demo as hilariously on IMDB or Hulu had Once under the Teen genre.

      LOL. Hook and Emma relationship does not feel like an adult relationship. They always have teenage angst, which is weird seeing on 30 year olds. All their dialogues are an undying love proclamation and Hook's women conquests jokes, I think the most realistic thing they ever talked about was watching something on Netflix.

      And that is the main problem with this pairing and why it feels forced and unrealistic. Hook, unlike Neal, Graham, August and even Walsh, is not grounded in the real world (a problem that Regina and Robin also share), he doesn't have a real job, he doesn't have any money, he doesn't know how technology works, so what do he and Emma, which has lived her whole life in the real world, have in common? What do they talk about when they have a quiet little moment without all the action or drama?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Think of it as hindsight, Farerb. Chances are they didn't know Regina would be quite popular so they likely didn't plan for her redemption to start as soon as it did. Likewise with developing pretty much Belle, Hook, etc.

      Anyhow, I would easily disagree with the post in part because Hook didn't really do that to Emma. It's more of a "Charming" problem that the writers developed. Remember how Snow stuck up for the little people Regina tryannized? Well, now since season 3b and onwards she only cares about herself and her circle of friends. Same with Emma.

      Real part is look how they all threat Belle. Belle was someone who was roughly there for several seasons and she's not given a care. When Belle asks for help, they just dismiss her and never notice if she isn't there. But that's a separate issue.

      I'll say that Hook-Emma is likely for the Teen demo as hilariously on IMDB or Hulu had Once under the Teen genre.

      LOL. Hook and Emma relationship does not feel like an adult relationship. They always have teenage angst, which is weird seeing on 30 year olds. All their dialogues are an undying love proclamation and Hook's women conquests jokes, I think the most realistic thing they ever talked about was watching something on Netflix.

      And that is the main problem with this pairing and why it feels forced and unrealistic. Hook, unlike Neal, Graham, August and even Walsh, is not grounded in the real world (a problem that Regina and Robin also share), he doesn't have a real job, he doesn't have any money, he doesn't know how technology works, so what do he and Emma, which has lived her whole life in the real world, have in common? What do they talk about when they have a quiet little moment without all the action or drama?

      Don't you know? They were abandoned as kids, so that's presumably all they have in common. Hook and Emma aren't too childish for me to disregard them. I mean at least better than Regina and Robin who are polar opposites, but have a child and no partner (Genius! Those two single parents should get together because noone would see that coming!)

      Emma worked with everyone else because it was reality and reality drifting into fiction, but now Emma loses that real world-ness and is pretty much not apart of either. Anyhow, I was rewatching some of their scenes and I posted in the "Neutral to Hook" discussion, that Hook has some terrible flirts. I mean I saw the backlash at Hook trying to look sexy on their date. (Know of that look?) Well, he did it in that CS vs SF episode and a few other times that I almost felt like this was some sort of comedy. :Lol, just look real close to him flirting with Emma in 3a and you'll see it.

      Hook is a decent character and Emma was one, but they had no need to get together. Clearly they follow the "The lead woman must have a lead man" and we all know Rumple is the series villain and part-foil to Emma, but clearly not Disney tweeb attractive to be the lead he should be.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Think of it as hindsight, Farerb. Chances are they didn't know Regina would be quite popular so they likely didn't plan for her redemption to start as soon as it did. Likewise with developing pretty much Belle, Hook, etc.

      Anyhow, I would easily disagree with the post in part because Hook didn't really do that to Emma. It's more of a "Charming" problem that the writers developed. Remember how Snow stuck up for the little people Regina tryannized? Well, now since season 3b and onwards she only cares about herself and her circle of friends. Same with Emma.

      Real part is look how they all threat Belle. Belle was someone who was roughly there for several seasons and she's not given a care. When Belle asks for help, they just dismiss her and never notice if she isn't there. But that's a separate issue.

      I'll say that Hook-Emma is likely for the Teen demo as hilariously on IMDB or Hulu had Once under the Teen genre.

      LOL. Hook and Emma relationship does not feel like an adult relationship. They always have teenage angst, which is weird seeing on 30 year olds. All their dialogues are an undying love proclamation and Hook's women conquests jokes, I think the most realistic thing they ever talked about was watching something on Netflix.

      And that is the main problem with this pairing and why it feels forced and unrealistic. Hook, unlike Neal, Graham, August and even Walsh, is not grounded in the real world (a problem that Regina and Robin also share), he doesn't have a real job, he doesn't have any money, he doesn't know how technology works, so what do he and Emma, which has lived her whole life in the real world, have in common? What do they talk about when they have a quiet little moment without all the action or drama?

      Don't you know? They were abandoned as kids, so that's presumably all they have in common. Hook and Emma aren't too childish for me to disregard them. I mean at least better than Regina and Robin who are polar opposites, but have a child and no partner (Genius! Those two single parents should get together because noone would see that coming!)

      Emma worked with everyone else because it was reality and reality drifting into fiction, but now Emma loses that real world-ness and is pretty much not apart of either. Anyhow, I was rewatching some of their scenes and I posted in the "Neutral to Hook" discussion, that Hook has some terrible flirts. I mean I saw the backlash at Hook trying to look sexy on their date. (Know of that look?) Well, he did it in that CS vs SF episode and a few other times that I almost felt like this was some sort of comedy. :Lol, just look real close to him flirting with Emma in 3a and you'll see it.

      Hook is a decent character and Emma was one, but they had no need to get together. Clearly they follow the "The lead woman must have a lead man" and we all know Rumple is the series villain and part-foil to Emma, but clearly not Disney tweeb attractive to be the lead he should be.

      Yes, they were good characters. Hook had no reason to be on the show after 3A, they ruined the integrity of the story by keeping him and forcing his relationship with Emma.

      I never understood their need to have Emma and Regina be with men and make those men their whole purpose and motivation in the story and disregard any other relationship they have with other characters. However, if they really had the need to have them be with men, why not have them be with men that actually make sense. Emma had three different options other than Hook and all of them made more sense. And Regina, well I thought about it recently and wondered why couldn't they develop Regina and Archie's relationship into something more than just a doctor-patient relationship, he did try to help her and reason with her after the curse was broken, instead of judging her. That would never happen because he is not hot enough, and we all know that only hot people and Rumple deserve someone to love them.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Nah, Rumple is lucky because he's Robert Carlyle and handsome (in the eye of the beholder as is everyone else).

      Regina and Archie.....please no (Plus, he's technically older than Cora). Anyhow, Regina needed no love interest, but Tom Ellis could have spiced things up a little and even could have made Robin and Sheriff brothers, lol. And better story........of course.

      But the main topic, Emma's being with any of those candidates are fine, but the serious things I will pose to anyone that supprt CS or against it:

      1. Emma's love for her son and her relationship with her parents should be foremost in her lives. And seen on-screen too!

      2. Will Emma and Hook break up?

      I asked number 2 because every typical true love have a period of space and misunderstand and/or redemption. but I feel liek CS isn't doing that and that's what is hurting it.

      Snow and Charming has a misunderstanding when George forced Snow to say those vile things to David and we saw them struggle in David Nolan's lies and cowardice. Rumple and Belle is explanatory. Then there was Emma and Neal, who didtched her and was almost as bad as his father and was working on a path of redcemption. Then we have August who did the same. We also have Graham, maybe. But then there is Hook who really doesn't habve any real issue he didn't already solve "Be good for Emma", yet there's no baggage or strife. All good couples have a period of separation or something. Even Robin and Regina separated and they get like no good story or dialogue or screentime together.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Nah, Rumple is lucky because he's Robert Carlyle and handsome (in the eye of the beholder as is everyone else).

      Regina and Archie.....please no (Plus, he's technically older than Cora). Anyhow, Regina needed no love interest, but Tom Ellis could have spiced things up a little and even could have made Robin and Sheriff brothers, lol. And better story........of course.

      But the main topic, Emma's being with any of those candidates are fine, but the serious things I will pose to anyone that supprt CS or against it:

      1. Emma's love for her son and her relationship with her parents should be foremost in her lives. And seen on-screen too!

      2. Will Emma and Hook break up?

      I asked number 2 because every typical true love have a period of space and misunderstand and/or redemption. but I feel liek CS isn't doing that and that's what is hurting it.

      Snow and Charming has a misunderstanding when George forced Snow to say those vile things to David and we saw them struggle in David Nolan's lies and cowardice. Rumple and Belle is explanatory. Then there was Emma and Neal, who didtched her and was almost as bad as his father and was working on a path of redcemption. Then we have August who did the same. We also have Graham, maybe. But then there is Hook who really doesn't habve any real issue he didn't already solve "Be good for Emma", yet there's no baggage or strife. All good couples have a period of separation or something. Even Robin and Regina separated and they get like no good story or dialogue or screentime together.

      I think 5A was their version of that.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Nah, Rumple is lucky because he's Robert Carlyle and handsome (in the eye of the beholder as is everyone else).

      Regina and Archie.....please no (Plus, he's technically older than Cora). Anyhow, Regina needed no love interest, but Tom Ellis could have spiced things up a little and even could have made Robin and Sheriff brothers, lol. And better story........of course.

      But the main topic, Emma's being with any of those candidates are fine, but the serious things I will pose to anyone that supprt CS or against it:

      1. Emma's love for her son and her relationship with her parents should be foremost in her lives. And seen on-screen too!

      2. Will Emma and Hook break up?

      I asked number 2 because every typical true love have a period of space and misunderstand and/or redemption. but I feel liek CS isn't doing that and that's what is hurting it.

      Snow and Charming has a misunderstanding when George forced Snow to say those vile things to David and we saw them struggle in David Nolan's lies and cowardice. Rumple and Belle is explanatory. Then there was Emma and Neal, who didtched her and was almost as bad as his father and was working on a path of redcemption. Then we have August who did the same. We also have Graham, maybe. But then there is Hook who really doesn't habve any real issue he didn't already solve "Be good for Emma", yet there's no baggage or strife. All good couples have a period of separation or something. Even Robin and Regina separated and they get like no good story or dialogue or screentime together.

      I think 5A was their version of that.

      No, doesn't count. That's like saying Rumbelle separated in 5a which they didn't, even if she left for literally two seconds.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Bad for Emma?!

      It has been bad for Hook.... for real

      He has being alive for 300 years... until he fall in love with Emma and then he died 3 times in like 1 week (Operation Mongoose, Birth and Swan Song)

      This relationship has been terrible for Hook!

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Bad for Emma?!

      It has been bad for Hook.... for real

      He has being alive for 300 years... until he fall in love with Emma and then he died 3 times in like 1 week (Operation Mongoose, Birth and Swan Song)

      This relationship has been terrible for Hook!

      This relationship is bad for both of them, at least this is what they show us. However, the narrative tells us it's "True Love".

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I don't see ur point, honestly...

      Point A, Emma never hurt Henry for Hook (plz point out if I've missed something). When she broke his heart, it was to free Merlin and rid herself of darkness. It was one of the "darkness"-spurred action in which she looked at the "bigger picture" instead of how much she'll hurt her son. Her taking everyone's memories was not just to save Hook, but to save everyone from what Hook might potentially do. And if I may remind you, Emma asked Henry if he was okay with her being with Hook and it was Henry who had pushed her towards him (quite literally). It has been shown numerous times that Henry likes Killian and he's more than okay with them being together. Lack of Henry-Emma scenes in season 4 actually can be blamed more on Henry bcoz he was busy with Regina and Operation Mongoose.

      Point B, I understand that the way Hook behaved in 5a was also not acceptable or likable. But guess what, he was evil scheming Dark Hook for like a total of 2 episodes! It's strange how quick everyone forgets the good. Back in Camelot, Hook supported her throughout, tried to drive away the darkness, make her happy, give her all the support she needed THROUGHOUT! When everyone from her parents to Regina were willing to use the dagger on her, he was the one who believed in her and let her make the decision. And yet, all you see is that in the last two episodes he acted like a complete jerk (that he did, I admit).

      Point C, again Hook's behaviour, what he did was as the dark one. You want a demo of what happens when a person becomes a Dark One? See Rumple. The man who wanted nothing more than a happy family becomes the power-hungry git who throws away love repeatedly after he becomes the Dark One. Even Emma here, forgets her son's feelings and manipulates the situation to make her work easy. So when Hook, who already had a tendency for darkness, becomes Dark One quite against his wishes, especially when his nemesis was a Dark One, he is going to be more than a little pissed about it! That, plus Emma's lack of faith in him, plus the overexaggeration by Darkness. If we can forgive Rumple for centuries of crime, I think we can forgive Hook for his unsuccessful-at-his-own-hands scheme to kill everyone. I do hate him for what he did though, and I wish it was Emma who had died so that he would be left to sink in his pool of remorse.

      Point D, it isn't as if Emma has never hurt Hook or brought any change in his life. He fell for her, and that changed everything (for the better, yes). Then he ran after her and she pushed him away again and again, hurting him numerous times. Didn't anyone else's life get affected bcoz they fell in love? As far as I can see, there were considerable changes in the lives of both people in each couple after falling in love... Why is that not acceptable when Emma falls in love?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Nah, Rumple is lucky because he's Robert Carlyle and handsome (in the eye of the beholder as is everyone else).

      Regina and Archie.....please no (Plus, he's technically older than Cora). Anyhow, Regina needed no love interest, but Tom Ellis could have spiced things up a little and even could have made Robin and Sheriff brothers, lol. And better story........of course.

      But the main topic, Emma's being with any of those candidates are fine, but the serious things I will pose to anyone that supprt CS or against it:

      1. Emma's love for her son and her relationship with her parents should be foremost in her lives. And seen on-screen too!

      2. Will Emma and Hook break up?

      I asked number 2 because every typical true love have a period of space and misunderstand and/or redemption. but I feel liek CS isn't doing that and that's what is hurting it.

      Snow and Charming has a misunderstanding when George forced Snow to say those vile things to David and we saw them struggle in David Nolan's lies and cowardice. Rumple and Belle is explanatory. Then there was Emma and Neal, who didtched her and was almost as bad as his father and was working on a path of redcemption. Then we have August who did the same. We also have Graham, maybe. But then there is Hook who really doesn't habve any real issue he didn't already solve "Be good for Emma", yet there's no baggage or strife. All good couples have a period of separation or something. Even Robin and Regina separated and they get like no good story or dialogue or screentime together.

      You seem hell bent on proving Hook and Emma are not good for each other. Means like really? You need a break-up time period to be "true love" or "good for each other" or whatever? 

      As for that, well, most of the Storybrooke arc in 5a was their separation/misunderstanding time. But surely that wouldn't count, right? Reason, may I ask?

      Snow-Charming misunderstanding was fabricated, they, the ideal couple who fell in love in one day, rarely had a good misunderstanding. Emma-Neal was betrayal, not misunderstanding, whatever be the reasons. He broke her heart, landed her in  jail, pregnant with his child. And then he turns up after a decade, engaged to another girl, and when she turns out to be a bitch, can he really still expect to win Emma back? I don't see how.

      Regina and Robin. Well, okay, he sees that he's still married to Marian, and Regina also gives him the green light, so yay, let's make another baby! And pop, Marian turns into Zelena and oh no what did I do moment. And yet Regina accepts her position and gets back with Robin.

      Rumple and Belle. Well, even on their wedding day he is found lying to her. He breaks her heart every single time and yet she returns. He claims to love her, but then again he loves his dagger more.

      All these cases are less than ideal, and yet you only complain about Captain Swan. I don't know why.

      But of course, everyone in entitled to their own opinions. No offense intended.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Nah, Rumple is lucky because he's Robert Carlyle and handsome (in the eye of the beholder as is everyone else).

      Regina and Archie.....please no (Plus, he's technically older than Cora). Anyhow, Regina needed no love interest, but Tom Ellis could have spiced things up a little and even could have made Robin and Sheriff brothers, lol. And better story........of course.

      But the main topic, Emma's being with any of those candidates are fine, but the serious things I will pose to anyone that supprt CS or against it:

      1. Emma's love for her son and her relationship with her parents should be foremost in her lives. And seen on-screen too!

      2. Will Emma and Hook break up?

      I asked number 2 because every typical true love have a period of space and misunderstand and/or redemption. but I feel liek CS isn't doing that and that's what is hurting it.

      Snow and Charming has a misunderstanding when George forced Snow to say those vile things to David and we saw them struggle in David Nolan's lies and cowardice. Rumple and Belle is explanatory. Then there was Emma and Neal, who didtched her and was almost as bad as his father and was working on a path of redcemption. Then we have August who did the same. We also have Graham, maybe. But then there is Hook who really doesn't habve any real issue he didn't already solve "Be good for Emma", yet there's no baggage or strife. All good couples have a period of separation or something. Even Robin and Regina separated and they get like no good story or dialogue or screentime together.

      You seem hell bent on proving Hook and Emma are not good for each other. Means like really? You need a break-up time period to be "true love" or "good for each other" or whatever? 

      As for that, well, most of the Storybrooke arc in 5a was their separation/misunderstanding time. But surely that wouldn't count, right? Reason, may I ask?

      Snow-Charming misunderstanding was fabricated, they, the ideal couple who fell in love in one day, rarely had a good misunderstanding. Emma-Neal was betrayal, not misunderstanding, whatever be the reasons. He broke her heart, landed her in  jail, pregnant with his child. And then he turns up after a decade, engaged to another girl, and when she turns out to be a bitch, can he really still expect to win Emma back? I don't see how.

      Regina and Robin. Well, okay, he sees that he's still married to Marian, and Regina also gives him the green light, so yay, let's make another baby! And pop, Marian turns into Zelena and oh no what did I do moment. And yet Regina accepts her position and gets back with Robin.

      Rumple and Belle. Well, even on their wedding day he is found lying to her. He breaks her heart every single time and yet she returns. He claims to love her, but then again he loves his dagger more.

      All these cases are less than ideal, and yet you only complain about Captain Swan. I don't know why.

      But of course, everyone in entitled to their own opinions. No offense intended.

      The fact that other relationships are problematic is irrelevant to the fact that Hook and Emma's relationship is problematic. There are threads about Rumple and Belle and Robin and Regina as well. This is a thread about Hook and Emma and how their relationship made their characters devolve, it has nothing to do with preference to other relationship.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Nah, Rumple is lucky because he's Robert Carlyle and handsome (in the eye of the beholder as is everyone else).

      Regina and Archie.....please no (Plus, he's technically older than Cora). Anyhow, Regina needed no love interest, but Tom Ellis could have spiced things up a little and even could have made Robin and Sheriff brothers, lol. And better story........of course.

      But the main topic, Emma's being with any of those candidates are fine, but the serious things I will pose to anyone that supprt CS or against it:

      1. Emma's love for her son and her relationship with her parents should be foremost in her lives. And seen on-screen too!

      2. Will Emma and Hook break up?

      I asked number 2 because every typical true love have a period of space and misunderstand and/or redemption. but I feel liek CS isn't doing that and that's what is hurting it.

      Snow and Charming has a misunderstanding when George forced Snow to say those vile things to David and we saw them struggle in David Nolan's lies and cowardice. Rumple and Belle is explanatory. Then there was Emma and Neal, who didtched her and was almost as bad as his father and was working on a path of redcemption. Then we have August who did the same. We also have Graham, maybe. But then there is Hook who really doesn't habve any real issue he didn't already solve "Be good for Emma", yet there's no baggage or strife. All good couples have a period of separation or something. Even Robin and Regina separated and they get like no good story or dialogue or screentime together.

      You seem hell bent on proving Hook and Emma are not good for each other. Means like really? You need a break-up time period to be "true love" or "good for each other" or whatever? 

      As for that, well, most of the Storybrooke arc in 5a was their separation/misunderstanding time. But surely that wouldn't count, right? Reason, may I ask?

      Snow-Charming misunderstanding was fabricated, they, the ideal couple who fell in love in one day, rarely had a good misunderstanding. Emma-Neal was betrayal, not misunderstanding, whatever be the reasons. He broke her heart, landed her in  jail, pregnant with his child. And then he turns up after a decade, engaged to another girl, and when she turns out to be a bitch, can he really still expect to win Emma back? I don't see how.

      Regina and Robin. Well, okay, he sees that he's still married to Marian, and Regina also gives him the green light, so yay, let's make another baby! And pop, Marian turns into Zelena and oh no what did I do moment. And yet Regina accepts her position and gets back with Robin.

      Rumple and Belle. Well, even on their wedding day he is found lying to her. He breaks her heart every single time and yet she returns. He claims to love her, but then again he loves his dagger more.

      All these cases are less than ideal, and yet you only complain about Captain Swan. I don't know why.

      But of course, everyone in entitled to their own opinions. No offense intended.

      The fact that other relationships are problematic is irrelevant to the fact that Hook and Emma's relationship is problematic. There are threads about Rumple and Belle and Robin and Regina as well. This is a thread about Hook and Emma and how their relationship made their characters devolve, it has nothing to do with preference to other relationship.

      My previous reply was regarding that. As the topic maker mentioned the other couples, I pointed out that they weren't any less problematic. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Nah, Rumple is lucky because he's Robert Carlyle and handsome (in the eye of the beholder as is everyone else).

      Regina and Archie.....please no (Plus, he's technically older than Cora). Anyhow, Regina needed no love interest, but Tom Ellis could have spiced things up a little and even could have made Robin and Sheriff brothers, lol. And better story........of course.

      But the main topic, Emma's being with any of those candidates are fine, but the serious things I will pose to anyone that supprt CS or against it:

      1. Emma's love for her son and her relationship with her parents should be foremost in her lives. And seen on-screen too!

      2. Will Emma and Hook break up?

      I asked number 2 because every typical true love have a period of space and misunderstand and/or redemption. but I feel liek CS isn't doing that and that's what is hurting it.

      Snow and Charming has a misunderstanding when George forced Snow to say those vile things to David and we saw them struggle in David Nolan's lies and cowardice. Rumple and Belle is explanatory. Then there was Emma and Neal, who didtched her and was almost as bad as his father and was working on a path of redcemption. Then we have August who did the same. We also have Graham, maybe. But then there is Hook who really doesn't habve any real issue he didn't already solve "Be good for Emma", yet there's no baggage or strife. All good couples have a period of separation or something. Even Robin and Regina separated and they get like no good story or dialogue or screentime together.

      You seem hell bent on proving Hook and Emma are not good for each other. Means like really? You need a break-up time period to be "true love" or "good for each other" or whatever? 

      As for that, well, most of the Storybrooke arc in 5a was their separation/misunderstanding time. But surely that wouldn't count, right? Reason, may I ask?

      Snow-Charming misunderstanding was fabricated, they, the ideal couple who fell in love in one day, rarely had a good misunderstanding. Emma-Neal was betrayal, not misunderstanding, whatever be the reasons. He broke her heart, landed her in  jail, pregnant with his child. And then he turns up after a decade, engaged to another girl, and when she turns out to be a bitch, can he really still expect to win Emma back? I don't see how.

      Regina and Robin. Well, okay, he sees that he's still married to Marian, and Regina also gives him the green light, so yay, let's make another baby! And pop, Marian turns into Zelena and oh no what did I do moment. And yet Regina accepts her position and gets back with Robin.

      Rumple and Belle. Well, even on their wedding day he is found lying to her. He breaks her heart every single time and yet she returns. He claims to love her, but then again he loves his dagger more.

      All these cases are less than ideal, and yet you only complain about Captain Swan. I don't know why.

      But of course, everyone in entitled to their own opinions. No offense intended.

      The fact that other relationships are problematic is irrelevant to the fact that Hook and Emma's relationship is problematic. There are threads about Rumple and Belle and Robin and Regina as well. This is a thread about Hook and Emma and how their relationship made their characters devolve, it has nothing to do with preference to other relationship.
      My previous reply was regarding that. As the topic maker mentioned the other couples, I pointed out that they weren't any less problematic. 

      Oh, me?! I made one about other couples (or at least responded on some). I deliver (almost) equal justice on all of them. I saw an opportunity to make this thread. Rumbelle has a few, but it falls to Belle's lack of self-respect and Rumple pretty much subconsiously trying to make Belle leave him (It's there, you just have to look closely) and has a self-loathing problem (not that his addiction to magic is any better). I talked about how Snow and David are (especially in season 2 and 3) self-absorbed and borderline suicidal; they seem to jump ahead in line to sacrifice themselves, their livelinhood, and even their chance to be their children, to save someone or to atone for something. And don't get me started on...........Anyhow, I'm sure you get the point. I made this thread as Rumbelle had a thread and OQ is usually dissed on by everyone and Snowing are borderline scenery.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I just find it funny how over the course of this discussion different people pointed out how both Emma and Hook had flaws before they were even together. Doesn't that alone prove that neither Emma or Hook are dragging each other down? They had issues to begin with, so maybe they are perfect for each other. XD  As far as a lot of the other things talked about on here, my response would be this: The vast majority of tv show dramas focus on ships, and children are mostly a non-entity. This is just how the shows work. People like love/sex. People find children boring. So the tv shows do what people like. And what has the most "drama". This is not a Once issue, this is a tv show drama issue. Lastly, I am also confused by the points some of you try to make. Emma and Regina shouldn't have or focus on a love interest? You do know like 95% of the population has or wants a romantic and/or sexual relationship? So I don't see Emma and Regina wanting one to be an issue. Similarly, exactly what scenes do you want to see with Roland, Baby Neal, and Baby Hood? Babies and young children are not that interesting. They eat, they sleep, they poop. Just because we don't have scenes of the characters playing with them in every episode, doesn't mean that it is not happening. It is just not interesting enough to be shown. And if they did show you, you all would be complaining that they wasted our time with a useless Mary Margaret or Regina doing baby talk to Neal or Baby Hood scene, when they could have been doing other things that are more interesting or important. Just something to think about. Finally, I would just like to say that I don't think any of the relationships on this show (or any other for that matter) are heathly to emulate. But that is part of the fun of watching. Seeing what happens with relationships that have flaws. Again, it goes back to what we are watching, a drama. It has to be dramatic.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      I just find it funny how over the course of this discussion different people pointed out how both Emma and Hook had flaws before they were even together. Doesn't that alone prove that neither Emma or Hook are dragging each other down? They had issues to begin with, so maybe they are perfect for each other. XD  As far as a lot of the other things talked about on here, my response would be this: The vast majority of tv show dramas focus on ships, and children are mostly a non-entity. This is just how the shows work. People like love/sex. People find children boring. So the tv shows do what people like. And what has the most "drama". This is not a Once issue, this is a tv show drama issue. Lastly, I am also confused by the points some of you try to make. Emma and Regina shouldn't have or focus on a love interest? You do know like 95% of the population has or wants a romantic and/or sexual relationship? So I don't see Emma and Regina wanting one to be an issue. Similarly, exactly what scenes do you want to see with Roland, Baby Neal, and Baby Hood? Babies and young children are not that interesting. They eat, they sleep, they poop. Just because we don't have scenes of the characters playing with them in every episode, doesn't mean that it is not happening. It is just not interesting enough to be shown. And if they did show you, you all would be complaining that they wasted our time with a useless Mary Margaret or Regina doing baby talk to Neal or Baby Hood scene, when they could have been doing other things that are more interesting or important. Just something to think about. Finally, I would just like to say that I don't think any of the relationships on this show (or any other for that matter) are heathly to emulate. But that is part of the fun of watching. Seeing what happens with relationships that have flaws. Again, it goes back to what we are watching, a drama. It has to be dramatic.

      There is a different between characters having flaws and characters being OOC. presenting unhealthy relationship is fine, romanticizing one is not.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      I just find it funny how over the course of this discussion different people pointed out how both Emma and Hook had flaws before they were even together. Doesn't that alone prove that neither Emma or Hook are dragging each other down? They had issues to begin with, so maybe they are perfect for each other. XD  As far as a lot of the other things talked about on here, my response would be this: The vast majority of tv show dramas focus on ships, and children are mostly a non-entity. This is just how the shows work. People like love/sex. People find children boring. So the tv shows do what people like. And what has the most "drama". This is not a Once issue, this is a tv show drama issue. Lastly, I am also confused by the points some of you try to make. Emma and Regina shouldn't have or focus on a love interest? You do know like 95% of the population has or wants a romantic and/or sexual relationship? So I don't see Emma and Regina wanting one to be an issue. Similarly, exactly what scenes do you want to see with Roland, Baby Neal, and Baby Hood? Babies and young children are not that interesting. They eat, they sleep, they poop. Just because we don't have scenes of the characters playing with them in every episode, doesn't mean that it is not happening. It is just not interesting enough to be shown. And if they did show you, you all would be complaining that they wasted our time with a useless Mary Margaret or Regina doing baby talk to Neal or Baby Hood scene, when they could have been doing other things that are more interesting or important. Just something to think about. Finally, I would just like to say that I don't think any of the relationships on this show (or any other for that matter) are heathly to emulate. But that is part of the fun of watching. Seeing what happens with relationships that have flaws. Again, it goes back to what we are watching, a drama. It has to be dramatic.
      There is a different between characters having flaws and characters being OOC. presenting unhealthy relationship is fine, romanticizing one is not.

      Why can't a writer romanticize an unhealthy relationship? Creators of fiction have gone a lot farther in romanticizing unhealthly relationships than what's going on with Emma and Hook. Point is, it is the writer's creation, so they can romanticize whatever they want. Along that line of thinking, deeming something "out of character" is you judging a character's actions, and saying "well, if I was writing this, the character wouldn't have acted like that", but again, you are not the writer, so you can't say how a character would act. You can disagree with the writer's choice, but at the end of the day, that was canonly how the character acted, so it must be "in character". I think this is probably why people have so many complaints about their fandoms: they think they know better than the creators how the creator's characters would act. When in reality the truth is simple, this is not their story to tell. When they write their own story, they can decide everything. But until then, they have to accept the hand that was dealt.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      I just find it funny how over the course of this discussion different people pointed out how both Emma and Hook had flaws before they were even together. Doesn't that alone prove that neither Emma or Hook are dragging each other down? They had issues to begin with, so maybe they are perfect for each other. XD  As far as a lot of the other things talked about on here, my response would be this: The vast majority of tv show dramas focus on ships, and children are mostly a non-entity. This is just how the shows work. People like love/sex. People find children boring. So the tv shows do what people like. And what has the most "drama". This is not a Once issue, this is a tv show drama issue. Lastly, I am also confused by the points some of you try to make. Emma and Regina shouldn't have or focus on a love interest? You do know like 95% of the population has or wants a romantic and/or sexual relationship? So I don't see Emma and Regina wanting one to be an issue. Similarly, exactly what scenes do you want to see with Roland, Baby Neal, and Baby Hood? Babies and young children are not that interesting. They eat, they sleep, they poop. Just because we don't have scenes of the characters playing with them in every episode, doesn't mean that it is not happening. It is just not interesting enough to be shown. And if they did show you, you all would be complaining that they wasted our time with a useless Mary Margaret or Regina doing baby talk to Neal or Baby Hood scene, when they could have been doing other things that are more interesting or important. Just something to think about. Finally, I would just like to say that I don't think any of the relationships on this show (or any other for that matter) are heathly to emulate. But that is part of the fun of watching. Seeing what happens with relationships that have flaws. Again, it goes back to what we are watching, a drama. It has to be dramatic.
      There is a different between characters having flaws and characters being OOC. presenting unhealthy relationship is fine, romanticizing one is not.
      Why can't a writer romanticize an unhealthy relationship? Creators of fiction have gone a lot farther in romanticizing unhealthly relationships than what's going on with Emma and Hook. Point is, it is the writer's creation, so they can romanticize whatever they want. Along that line of thinking, deeming something "out of character" is you judging a character's actions, and saying "well, if I was writing this, the character wouldn't have acted like that", but again, you are not the writer, so you can't say how a character would act. You can disagree with the writer's choice, but at the end of the day, that was canonly how the character acted, so it must be "in character". I think this is probably why people have so many complaints about their fandoms: they think they know better than the creators how the creator's characters would act. When in reality the truth is simple, this is not their story to tell. When they write their own story, they can decide everything. But until then, they have to accept the hand that was dealt.

      Actually there is a problem when a writer depicts an abusive unhealthy relationship as a model for "True Love", you don't think there's a much larger impact on young girls that can learn from the show that Hook is the right man for them? Please I get that you drank from the kool-aid and you are unable to have any kind of critical analytic thinking about the show, but please think about what you said right now about presenting a problematic relationship as an ideal relationship.

      When people say that a character is OOC, it's because the writers have set personality traits through out the story, when the character acts against those personality traits then they act OOC, not because I think they should've acted diffrently or not. Unlike you, I don't think that the characters should be shells that act according to what's convenient to the story or plot.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      I just find it funny how over the course of this discussion different people pointed out how both Emma and Hook had flaws before they were even together. Doesn't that alone prove that neither Emma or Hook are dragging each other down? They had issues to begin with, so maybe they are perfect for each other. XD  As far as a lot of the other things talked about on here, my response would be this: The vast majority of tv show dramas focus on ships, and children are mostly a non-entity. This is just how the shows work. People like love/sex. People find children boring. So the tv shows do what people like. And what has the most "drama". This is not a Once issue, this is a tv show drama issue. Lastly, I am also confused by the points some of you try to make. Emma and Regina shouldn't have or focus on a love interest? You do know like 95% of the population has or wants a romantic and/or sexual relationship? So I don't see Emma and Regina wanting one to be an issue. Similarly, exactly what scenes do you want to see with Roland, Baby Neal, and Baby Hood? Babies and young children are not that interesting. They eat, they sleep, they poop. Just because we don't have scenes of the characters playing with them in every episode, doesn't mean that it is not happening. It is just not interesting enough to be shown. And if they did show you, you all would be complaining that they wasted our time with a useless Mary Margaret or Regina doing baby talk to Neal or Baby Hood scene, when they could have been doing other things that are more interesting or important. Just something to think about. Finally, I would just like to say that I don't think any of the relationships on this show (or any other for that matter) are heathly to emulate. But that is part of the fun of watching. Seeing what happens with relationships that have flaws. Again, it goes back to what we are watching, a drama. It has to be dramatic.
      There is a different between characters having flaws and characters being OOC. presenting unhealthy relationship is fine, romanticizing one is not.
      Why can't a writer romanticize an unhealthy relationship? Creators of fiction have gone a lot farther in romanticizing unhealthly relationships than what's going on with Emma and Hook. Point is, it is the writer's creation, so they can romanticize whatever they want. Along that line of thinking, deeming something "out of character" is you judging a character's actions, and saying "well, if I was writing this, the character wouldn't have acted like that", but again, you are not the writer, so you can't say how a character would act. You can disagree with the writer's choice, but at the end of the day, that was canonly how the character acted, so it must be "in character". I think this is probably why people have so many complaints about their fandoms: they think they know better than the creators how the creator's characters would act. When in reality the truth is simple, this is not their story to tell. When they write their own story, they can decide everything. But until then, they have to accept the hand that was dealt.
      Actually there is a problem when a writer depicts an abusive unhealthy relationship as a model for "True Love", you don't think there's a much larger impact on young girls that can learn from the show that Hook is the right man for them? Please I get that you drank from the kool-aid and you are unable to have any kind of critical analytic thinking about the show, but please think about what you said right now about presenting a problematic relationship as an ideal relationship.

      When people say that a character is OOC, it's because the writers have set personality traits through out the story, when the character acts against those personality traits then they act OOC, not because I think they should've acted diffrently or not. Unlike you, I don't think that the characters should be shells that act according to what's convenient to the story or plot.

      I don't think a writer should or shouldn't do something, because it may influence a person's actions in real life. If someone is stupid enough to not know the difference between fiction and reality, and end up in an unhealthy relationship because of it, that is their own fault. And if your claim is that a girl is not old enough to know the difference, than I feel she shouldn't be watching the show in the first place.

      So you've never come across someone in real life that has acted in a way you thought was out of "their character"? Maybe you have to accept characters (or real people for that matter) aren't preprogramed to only have 3 predetermined personality traits that everything they ever do must adhere to.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      I just find it funny how over the course of this discussion different people pointed out how both Emma and Hook had flaws before they were even together. Doesn't that alone prove that neither Emma or Hook are dragging each other down? They had issues to begin with, so maybe they are perfect for each other. XD  As far as a lot of the other things talked about on here, my response would be this: The vast majority of tv show dramas focus on ships, and children are mostly a non-entity. This is just how the shows work. People like love/sex. People find children boring. So the tv shows do what people like. And what has the most "drama". This is not a Once issue, this is a tv show drama issue. Lastly, I am also confused by the points some of you try to make. Emma and Regina shouldn't have or focus on a love interest? You do know like 95% of the population has or wants a romantic and/or sexual relationship? So I don't see Emma and Regina wanting one to be an issue. Similarly, exactly what scenes do you want to see with Roland, Baby Neal, and Baby Hood? Babies and young children are not that interesting. They eat, they sleep, they poop. Just because we don't have scenes of the characters playing with them in every episode, doesn't mean that it is not happening. It is just not interesting enough to be shown. And if they did show you, you all would be complaining that they wasted our time with a useless Mary Margaret or Regina doing baby talk to Neal or Baby Hood scene, when they could have been doing other things that are more interesting or important. Just something to think about. Finally, I would just like to say that I don't think any of the relationships on this show (or any other for that matter) are heathly to emulate. But that is part of the fun of watching. Seeing what happens with relationships that have flaws. Again, it goes back to what we are watching, a drama. It has to be dramatic.
      There is a different between characters having flaws and characters being OOC. presenting unhealthy relationship is fine, romanticizing one is not.
      Why can't a writer romanticize an unhealthy relationship? Creators of fiction have gone a lot farther in romanticizing unhealthly relationships than what's going on with Emma and Hook. Point is, it is the writer's creation, so they can romanticize whatever they want. Along that line of thinking, deeming something "out of character" is you judging a character's actions, and saying "well, if I was writing this, the character wouldn't have acted like that", but again, you are not the writer, so you can't say how a character would act. You can disagree with the writer's choice, but at the end of the day, that was canonly how the character acted, so it must be "in character". I think this is probably why people have so many complaints about their fandoms: they think they know better than the creators how the creator's characters would act. When in reality the truth is simple, this is not their story to tell. When they write their own story, they can decide everything. But until then, they have to accept the hand that was dealt.
      Actually there is a problem when a writer depicts an abusive unhealthy relationship as a model for "True Love", you don't think there's a much larger impact on young girls that can learn from the show that Hook is the right man for them? Please I get that you drank from the kool-aid and you are unable to have any kind of critical analytic thinking about the show, but please think about what you said right now about presenting a problematic relationship as an ideal relationship.

      When people say that a character is OOC, it's because the writers have set personality traits through out the story, when the character acts against those personality traits then they act OOC, not because I think they should've acted diffrently or not. Unlike you, I don't think that the characters should be shells that act according to what's convenient to the story or plot.

      I don't think a writer should or shouldn't do something, because it may influence a person's actions in real life. If someone is stupid enough to not know the difference between fiction and reality, and end up in an unhealthy relationship because of it, that is their own fault. And if your claim is that a girl is not old enough to know the difference, than I feel she shouldn't be watching the show in the first place.

      So you've never come across someone in real life that has acted in a way you thought was out of "their character"? Maybe you have to accept characters (or real people for that matter) aren't preprogramed to only have 3 predetermined personality traits that everything they ever do must adhere to.

      You really don't think that media shape the way people think?! Well, congratulation for being "smart" enough to realize that the relationship they try to idolize is bad, some people are more influential than that.

      Yes, people act OOC, even in real life, but then they get called out on that or get questions that try to understand what's wrong and it usually comes after a life changing event. Back in season 2, when the writers actually cared about the characters and the story they told, Snow acted differently after she killed Cora, but it was acknowledged in the narrative and it was consistent throughout the reminder of the season and wasn't changed from scene to scene.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Okay, so as you have pointed out that this post is about Emma-Henry relation, can you please point out how exactly did Emma-Hook relation tarnish Emma-Henry relation?

      Hook didn't ask her to abandon her son and romance with him. And as far as I know, she didn't do that either. In season 4, the lack of their scenes together was more bcoz Henry was busy with Regina to find her happy ending. I don't find it incredibly necessary for Emma to run after him throughout begging for his attention or whatever you want her to do, especially as she had an ice wall and an ice queen to handle. Her 'quiet moments' with Hook occurred mainly bcoz he was accompanying her to investigate.

      Hook didn't ask her to break Henry's heart. She did it (as the dark one) in order to free Merlin.

      Taking everyone's memories was as much of saving everyone else as saving Hook. And yes, she was selfish in saving him and turning him into dark one, but do you think if it was Henry, or Charming, or Snow in his place she wouldn't have done that? Hook has become as much family as them for her.

      So pray tell me how you arrived at that conclusion. I certainly fail to see it.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Okay, so as you have pointed out that this post is about Emma-Henry relation, can you please point out how exactly did Emma-Hook relation tarnish Emma-Henry relation?

      Hook didn't ask her to abandon her son and romance with him. And as far as I know, she didn't do that either. In season 4, the lack of their scenes together was more bcoz Henry was busy with Regina to find her happy ending. I don't find it incredibly necessary for Emma to run after him throughout begging for his attention or whatever you want her to do, especially as she had an ice wall and an ice queen to handle. Her 'quiet moments' with Hook occurred mainly bcoz he was accompanying her to investigate.

      Hook didn't ask her to break Henry's heart. She did it (as the dark one) in order to free Merlin.

      Taking everyone's memories was as much of saving everyone else as saving Hook. And yes, she was selfish in saving him and turning him into dark one, but do you think if it was Henry, or Charming, or Snow in his place she wouldn't have done that? Hook has become as much family as them for her.

      So pray tell me how you arrived at that conclusion. I certainly fail to see it.

      Hook tried to kill Henry twice, plus he tried to abduct him without informing Emma or Regina to cover his lies. Emma decides or somehow lets Henry come to the underworld to save the person who tried to kill him after Mr Gold describe the Underworld as a dangerous place.

      Emma (or rather the witers) turned Henry (and Snow and Charimg) into a minor secondary character in Emma's life, just so she would be more focused on Hook. This is actually not healthy and makes Emma too much dependent on a guy. Hook might have been the one to let Emma make her own choice, which was a bad decision back then considering she almost crashed someone's heart, but then they presented it as if he was the one that can distract her or help her overcome the darkness. They presented it as if Emma was weak and only a man can make her overcome the darkness, she never did it on her own, except in 507, which was tarnished by the fact that again they turned it to be about a guy in 508. Emma erasing everyone's memory didn't help or benefited anyone other than Hook and covering the fact that Hook was turned into a dark one and cold blooded murdered someone without any hesitation. It was actually reckless of her to let everyone unknowingly interact with a dangerous man throughout season 5A.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Okay, so as you have pointed out that this post is about Emma-Henry relation, can you please point out how exactly did Emma-Hook relation tarnish Emma-Henry relation?

      Hook didn't ask her to abandon her son and romance with him. And as far as I know, she didn't do that either. In season 4, the lack of their scenes together was more bcoz Henry was busy with Regina to find her happy ending. I don't find it incredibly necessary for Emma to run after him throughout begging for his attention or whatever you want her to do, especially as she had an ice wall and an ice queen to handle. Her 'quiet moments' with Hook occurred mainly bcoz he was accompanying her to investigate.

      Hook didn't ask her to break Henry's heart. She did it (as the dark one) in order to free Merlin.

      Taking everyone's memories was as much of saving everyone else as saving Hook. And yes, she was selfish in saving him and turning him into dark one, but do you think if it was Henry, or Charming, or Snow in his place she wouldn't have done that? Hook has become as much family as them for her.

      So pray tell me how you arrived at that conclusion. I certainly fail to see it.

      Hook tried to kill Henry twice, plus he tried to abduct him without informing Emma or Regina to cover his lies. Emma decides or somehow lets Henry come to the underworld to save the person who tried to kill him after Mr Gold describe the Underworld as a dangerous place.

      Emma (or rather the witers) turned Henry (and Snow and Charimg) into a minor secondary character in Emma's life, just so she would be more focused on Hook. This is actually not healthy and makes Emma too much dependent on a guy. Hook might have been the one to let Emma make her own choice, which was a bad decision back then considering she almost crashed someone's heart, but then they presented it as if he was the one that can distract her or help her overcome the darkness. They presented it as if Emma was weak and only a man can make her overcome the darkness, she never did it on her own, except in 507, which was tarnished by the fact that again they turned it to be about a guy in 508. Emma erasing everyone's memory didn't help or benefited anyone other than Hook and covering the fact that Hook was turned into a dark one and cold blooded murdered someone without any hesitation. It was actually reckless of her to let everyone unknowingly interact with a dangerous man throughout season 5A.

      That's the point! THE WRITERS turned Henry into a secondary character, HOOK didn't. And it wasn't for Hook-Emma relationship. I daresay Emma and Regina had more meaningful screen time together in season 4 than Emma and Hook, especially 4A. Yes, Emma-Henry scenes were less, but really I don't know what's forcing people to say Hook is responsible for that.

      I'm not defending what Hook did, I agree it was horrible. But almost every character has done something horrible. Doesn't necessarily mean they're unforgivable. Emma, the person with most powerful light magic, the person who was born without darkness, if she can break her own son's heart and be forgiven, same goes for Regina, maybe we can forgive Hook for playing evil for two days (literally). Let's note that when he was not infected by 'darkness', he did try to keep his internal darkness at bay.

      The 'kidnapping Henry' part is a feeble excuse, coz he was more of the victim there. Quoting from the show, Zelena had pushed him into a corner. He tried to find a third option without telling anyone (not a crime, is it?). It wasn't to cover his lies, as far as I can see.

      Depends on how you look at it. It's not about a man, imo. It's about a person. In this case, it was Hook. If you're singlemindedly opposed to the heroine having a love interest, no one can help it. Many people enjoy romance, many people do like it when a character has more than just blood relatives to love her. I like Hook because he tries to understand Emma, see things from her pov and convince her using that insight. So I like him being with her, even if it were just as a friend I wouldn't have minded.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Okay, so as you have pointed out that this post is about Emma-Henry relation, can you please point out how exactly did Emma-Hook relation tarnish Emma-Henry relation?

      Hook didn't ask her to abandon her son and romance with him. And as far as I know, she didn't do that either. In season 4, the lack of their scenes together was more bcoz Henry was busy with Regina to find her happy ending. I don't find it incredibly necessary for Emma to run after him throughout begging for his attention or whatever you want her to do, especially as she had an ice wall and an ice queen to handle. Her 'quiet moments' with Hook occurred mainly bcoz he was accompanying her to investigate.

      Hook didn't ask her to break Henry's heart. She did it (as the dark one) in order to free Merlin.

      Taking everyone's memories was as much of saving everyone else as saving Hook. And yes, she was selfish in saving him and turning him into dark one, but do you think if it was Henry, or Charming, or Snow in his place she wouldn't have done that? Hook has become as much family as them for her.

      So pray tell me how you arrived at that conclusion. I certainly fail to see it.

      Hook tried to kill Henry twice, plus he tried to abduct him without informing Emma or Regina to cover his lies. Emma decides or somehow lets Henry come to the underworld to save the person who tried to kill him after Mr Gold describe the Underworld as a dangerous place.

      Emma (or rather the witers) turned Henry (and Snow and Charimg) into a minor secondary character in Emma's life, just so she would be more focused on Hook. This is actually not healthy and makes Emma too much dependent on a guy. Hook might have been the one to let Emma make her own choice, which was a bad decision back then considering she almost crashed someone's heart, but then they presented it as if he was the one that can distract her or help her overcome the darkness. They presented it as if Emma was weak and only a man can make her overcome the darkness, she never did it on her own, except in 507, which was tarnished by the fact that again they turned it to be about a guy in 508. Emma erasing everyone's memory didn't help or benefited anyone other than Hook and covering the fact that Hook was turned into a dark one and cold blooded murdered someone without any hesitation. It was actually reckless of her to let everyone unknowingly interact with a dangerous man throughout season 5A.

      That's the point! THE WRITERS turned Henry into a secondary character, HOOK didn't. And it wasn't for Hook-Emma relationship. I daresay Emma and Regina had more meaningful screen time together in season 4 than Emma and Hook, especially 4A. Yes, Emma-Henry scenes were less, but really I don't know what's forcing people to say Hook is responsible for that.

      I'm not defending what Hook did, I agree it was horrible. But almost every character has done something horrible. Doesn't necessarily mean they're unforgivable. Emma, the person with most powerful light magic, the person who was born without darkness, if she can break her own son's heart and be forgiven, same goes for Regina, maybe we can forgive Hook for playing evil for two days (literally). Let's note that when he was not infected by 'darkness', he did try to keep his internal darkness at bay.

      The 'kidnapping Henry' part is a feeble excuse, coz he was more of the victim there. Quoting from the show, Zelena had pushed him into a corner. He tried to find a third option without telling anyone (not a crime, is it?). It wasn't to cover his lies, as far as I can see.

      Depends on how you look at it. It's not about a man, imo. It's about a person. In this case, it was Hook. If you're singlemindedly opposed to the heroine having a love interest, no one can help it. Many people enjoy romance, many people do like it when a character has more than just blood relatives to love her. I like Hook because he tries to understand Emma, see things from her pov and convince her using that insight. So I like him being with her, even if it were just as a friend I wouldn't have minded.

      It's not about Emma being in a romantic relationship, it's when that relationship becomes everything about Emma and not just a part of her. Her romantic relationship is what drives her character and story and not she, herself as an independent character.

      Emma's entire arc in 5A was about Hook and his feelings. She never delt with the darkness on her own, we always see her falling apart, making dreamcatchers until Hook comes along to "save" her, and eventually she risk and endager everyone she supposedly still loves for his sake alone.

      We barely saw her interact with her son and her parents. The only time it happened was in 505, and that was a great episode because they allowed Emma be something more than just Hook's girlfriend that needs him to "save" her.

      In 510 Emma just stand there while she lets Hook insult her. A strong female character, and for that matter the old Emma, would have called him out and proved him wrong because she should know that her family loves her and they would do anything for her, but let him say those things like they are some kind of truths that she has to accept. It contradicted what Emma once told Ashley once that people don't define who you are, which is really a perfect example to the devolution of Emma as a strong character.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I'll give a small example (unless you want me to write an essay about it as I can).

      Swan Song and 5a in general.

      Anyone that tries to hurt the people Emma loves gets nothing but the axe. Everything Emma does is what she considers best for her son as he is her True Love. Hook tries to down her whole family, but makes an exception to it because of Emma. Cool beans, bro. But I guess Hook could care less about Emma's family and son in mortal peril. Then without much of a conversation, Emma takes her son into a dangerous place to help the person that tried to kill him a day ago.

      Emma in that same episode hid Henry's ears from hearing Rumple's doom and gloom speech about the Underworld, but without a thought, takes him to save TWU Lurv. It's a tad contradictory.

      I mean there's so much more, like how Emma became the Dark One (officialy with the black jacket) for selfish reasons.

      Don't be mistaken, the problem isn't Hook, but the relationship itself.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • In season 4, numerous times I found Emma's behaviour a bit strange, like she was making excuses for Hook, when he himself felt guilty about it. Like when he says it's his fault the fairies got trapped in the hat, Emma says "It wasn't you, it was Gold." When he talks about what happened with Ursula, she tells him it won't affect them. She repeatedly insists "You're not that man anymore." while Hook himself is afraid that his past might affect his - their - future. Further amplified when she chooses to make him the dark one and embrace darkness herself rather than let him die.

      I thought back about it, and this is what I think. Emma has always sought love since childhood and whenever she found it she became quite attached and wanted to hold on, to change herself for it. Neal's betrayal changed some things about her, made her more closed and mistrusting, having mile high walls, but still she craved love. She found it again with her family, with Henry, with her parents, and eventually Hook as well. After Neal, Hook was the first person she had come this far with, i.e., openly admitted and accepted her love. Hook had won her love and trust, and slowly her fears were also subdued. But this created a sort of dependence for her, I don't know how to explain it exactly. Initially she had fears and inhibitions regarding her and Hook, but slowly she began to subdue them. She never truly got rid of them, but she wanted to be free of them, to be assured, that is why she made those excuses, to reassure herself and brush away her own fears. She desperately wanted this to work, and deep down was hell scared that it wouldn't, that he would die, or leave her, or something would happen and it would end. Hook gave her hope of a happy future, and she desperately wanted that future. This produced a sense of dependence in her and made her downright desperate sometimes, especially when as the dark one fears and negativity ruled her mind.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      In season 4, numerous times I found Emma's behaviour a bit strange, like she was making excuses for Hook, when he himself felt guilty about it. Like when he says it's his fault the fairies got trapped in the hat, Emma says "It wasn't you, it was Gold." When he talks about what happened with Ursula, she tells him it won't affect them. She repeatedly insists "You're not that man anymore." while Hook himself is afraid that his past might affect his - their - future. Further amplified when she chooses to make him the dark one and embrace darkness herself rather than let him die.

      I thought back about it, and this is what I think. Emma has always sought love since childhood and whenever she found it she became quite attached and wanted to hold on, to change herself for it. Neal's betrayal changed some things about her, made her more closed and mistrusting, having mile high walls, but still she craved love. She found it again with her family, with Henry, with her parents, and eventually Hook as well. After Neal, Hook was the first person she had come this far with, i.e., openly admitted and accepted her love. Hook had won her love and trust, and slowly her fears were also subdued. But this created a sort of dependence for her, I don't know how to explain it exactly. Initially she had fears and inhibitions regarding her and Hook, but slowly she began to subdue them. She never truly got rid of them, but she wanted to be free of them, to be assured, that is why she made those excuses, to reassure herself and brush away her own fears. She desperately wanted this to work, and deep down was hell scared that it wouldn't, that he would die, or leave her, or something would happen and it would end. Hook gave her hope of a happy future, and she desperately wanted that future. This produced a sense of dependence in her and made her downright desperate sometimes, especially when as the dark one fears and negativity ruled her mind.

      I'll agree for the most part, but I think the Neal thing is a bit overstated. Emma;s alls comes from a number of life instances with being an orphan, Ingrid, Lily and then Neal, not simply Neal alone. Those are how her walls formed but she still had some wholes in that wall where some people squeezed past.

      The issue many have with it isn't what it is (Yeah, some people do, but that's not what I'm getting at). It's everything else around it. IF the Emma-Hook relatiohsip was the forefront and the only two major characters, then it would probably be fine, but...........surprise it's not. Henry was the first person to face Walled Emma and he was able to sowly bring down Emma's walls. It wasn't Hook doing all the heavy lifting, but Henry primarily, then Snow and Hook. Now, Hook plays a major role, but the issue is how everything is cast to the wayside. As I always say, It's not Hook, but the relationship...getting greater focus. It's nice and have beautiful moments, but when you have Snow and David doing like nothing for Emma and Henry sitting around pouting and throwing wacky villains forgiveness, except Emma; there is something off. Equal balance between Emma-Henry, Emma-Snowing, and Emma-Hook, is the best balance of all.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      In season 4, numerous times I found Emma's behaviour a bit strange, like she was making excuses for Hook, when he himself felt guilty about it. Like when he says it's his fault the fairies got trapped in the hat, Emma says "It wasn't you, it was Gold." When he talks about what happened with Ursula, she tells him it won't affect them. She repeatedly insists "You're not that man anymore." while Hook himself is afraid that his past might affect his - their - future. Further amplified when she chooses to make him the dark one and embrace darkness herself rather than let him die.

      I thought back about it, and this is what I think. Emma has always sought love since childhood and whenever she found it she became quite attached and wanted to hold on, to change herself for it. Neal's betrayal changed some things about her, made her more closed and mistrusting, having mile high walls, but still she craved love. She found it again with her family, with Henry, with her parents, and eventually Hook as well. After Neal, Hook was the first person she had come this far with, i.e., openly admitted and accepted her love. Hook had won her love and trust, and slowly her fears were also subdued. But this created a sort of dependence for her, I don't know how to explain it exactly. Initially she had fears and inhibitions regarding her and Hook, but slowly she began to subdue them. She never truly got rid of them, but she wanted to be free of them, to be assured, that is why she made those excuses, to reassure herself and brush away her own fears. She desperately wanted this to work, and deep down was hell scared that it wouldn't, that he would die, or leave her, or something would happen and it would end. Hook gave her hope of a happy future, and she desperately wanted that future. This produced a sense of dependence in her and made her downright desperate sometimes, especially when as the dark one fears and negativity ruled her mind.

      I'll agree for the most part, but I think the Neal thing is a bit overstated. Emma;s alls comes from a number of life instances with being an orphan, Ingrid, Lily and then Neal, not simply Neal alone. Those are how her walls formed but she still had some wholes in that wall where some people squeezed past.

      The issue many have with it isn't what it is (Yeah, some people do, but that's not what I'm getting at). It's everything else around it. IF the Emma-Hook relatiohsip was the forefront and the only two major characters, then it would probably be fine, but...........surprise it's not. Henry was the first person to face Walled Emma and he was able to sowly bring down Emma's walls. It wasn't Hook doing all the heavy lifting, but Henry primarily, then Snow and Hook. Now, Hook plays a major role, but the issue is how everything is cast to the wayside. As I always say, It's not Hook, but the relationship...getting greater focus. It's nice and have beautiful moments, but when you have Snow and David doing like nothing for Emma and Henry sitting around pouting and throwing wacky villains forgiveness, except Emma; there is something off. Equal balance between Emma-Henry, Emma-Snowing, and Emma-Hook, is the best balance of all.

      I didn't mean that Neal is the only reason for her walls, but more or less he is a major contributor. The fact that Emma accepted him way more easily into her life and the amount of depression she faced after he left make me think so.

      I agree completely that there should be a balance between the three relations, and I agree that it has not been kept. The romantic relation of Hook and Emma has come to the forefront from season 4 and the others have been neglected. It irked me as well.

      Perhaps the writers thought we'd had enough of Emma-Henry, Regina-Henry and Snowing-Emma with the rejections, acceptances, amnesias, etc. that's why the focus came on romantic relations with rather more of Emma-Hook and Regina-Robin and somewhat Regina-Emma friendship. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      In season 4, numerous times I found Emma's behaviour a bit strange, like she was making excuses for Hook, when he himself felt guilty about it. Like when he says it's his fault the fairies got trapped in the hat, Emma says "It wasn't you, it was Gold." When he talks about what happened with Ursula, she tells him it won't affect them. She repeatedly insists "You're not that man anymore." while Hook himself is afraid that his past might affect his - their - future. Further amplified when she chooses to make him the dark one and embrace darkness herself rather than let him die.

      I thought back about it, and this is what I think. Emma has always sought love since childhood and whenever she found it she became quite attached and wanted to hold on, to change herself for it. Neal's betrayal changed some things about her, made her more closed and mistrusting, having mile high walls, but still she craved love. She found it again with her family, with Henry, with her parents, and eventually Hook as well. After Neal, Hook was the first person she had come this far with, i.e., openly admitted and accepted her love. Hook had won her love and trust, and slowly her fears were also subdued. But this created a sort of dependence for her, I don't know how to explain it exactly. Initially she had fears and inhibitions regarding her and Hook, but slowly she began to subdue them. She never truly got rid of them, but she wanted to be free of them, to be assured, that is why she made those excuses, to reassure herself and brush away her own fears. She desperately wanted this to work, and deep down was hell scared that it wouldn't, that he would die, or leave her, or something would happen and it would end. Hook gave her hope of a happy future, and she desperately wanted that future. This produced a sense of dependence in her and made her downright desperate sometimes, especially when as the dark one fears and negativity ruled her mind.

      I'll agree for the most part, but I think the Neal thing is a bit overstated. Emma;s alls comes from a number of life instances with being an orphan, Ingrid, Lily and then Neal, not simply Neal alone. Those are how her walls formed but she still had some wholes in that wall where some people squeezed past.

      The issue many have with it isn't what it is (Yeah, some people do, but that's not what I'm getting at). It's everything else around it. IF the Emma-Hook relatiohsip was the forefront and the only two major characters, then it would probably be fine, but...........surprise it's not. Henry was the first person to face Walled Emma and he was able to sowly bring down Emma's walls. It wasn't Hook doing all the heavy lifting, but Henry primarily, then Snow and Hook. Now, Hook plays a major role, but the issue is how everything is cast to the wayside. As I always say, It's not Hook, but the relationship...getting greater focus. It's nice and have beautiful moments, but when you have Snow and David doing like nothing for Emma and Henry sitting around pouting and throwing wacky villains forgiveness, except Emma; there is something off. Equal balance between Emma-Henry, Emma-Snowing, and Emma-Hook, is the best balance of all.

      I think people give too much credit to Hook breaking Emma walls and allowing her to love again. As much as the writers want to retcon them, season 1 and 2 happened, we saw how Emma is opening up to Henry and MM and Ashley and Ruby etc, etc. She was in a serious relationship for a year and actually considered engagement, she wouldn't have been able to do it if she wasn't open or had her walls or whatever...

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      In season 4, numerous times I found Emma's behaviour a bit strange, like she was making excuses for Hook, when he himself felt guilty about it. Like when he says it's his fault the fairies got trapped in the hat, Emma says "It wasn't you, it was Gold." When he talks about what happened with Ursula, she tells him it won't affect them. She repeatedly insists "You're not that man anymore." while Hook himself is afraid that his past might affect his - their - future. Further amplified when she chooses to make him the dark one and embrace darkness herself rather than let him die.

      I thought back about it, and this is what I think. Emma has always sought love since childhood and whenever she found it she became quite attached and wanted to hold on, to change herself for it. Neal's betrayal changed some things about her, made her more closed and mistrusting, having mile high walls, but still she craved love. She found it again with her family, with Henry, with her parents, and eventually Hook as well. After Neal, Hook was the first person she had come this far with, i.e., openly admitted and accepted her love. Hook had won her love and trust, and slowly her fears were also subdued. But this created a sort of dependence for her, I don't know how to explain it exactly. Initially she had fears and inhibitions regarding her and Hook, but slowly she began to subdue them. She never truly got rid of them, but she wanted to be free of them, to be assured, that is why she made those excuses, to reassure herself and brush away her own fears. She desperately wanted this to work, and deep down was hell scared that it wouldn't, that he would die, or leave her, or something would happen and it would end. Hook gave her hope of a happy future, and she desperately wanted that future. This produced a sense of dependence in her and made her downright desperate sometimes, especially when as the dark one fears and negativity ruled her mind.

      I'll agree for the most part, but I think the Neal thing is a bit overstated. Emma;s alls comes from a number of life instances with being an orphan, Ingrid, Lily and then Neal, not simply Neal alone. Those are how her walls formed but she still had some wholes in that wall where some people squeezed past.

      The issue many have with it isn't what it is (Yeah, some people do, but that's not what I'm getting at). It's everything else around it. IF the Emma-Hook relatiohsip was the forefront and the only two major characters, then it would probably be fine, but...........surprise it's not. Henry was the first person to face Walled Emma and he was able to sowly bring down Emma's walls. It wasn't Hook doing all the heavy lifting, but Henry primarily, then Snow and Hook. Now, Hook plays a major role, but the issue is how everything is cast to the wayside. As I always say, It's not Hook, but the relationship...getting greater focus. It's nice and have beautiful moments, but when you have Snow and David doing like nothing for Emma and Henry sitting around pouting and throwing wacky villains forgiveness, except Emma; there is something off. Equal balance between Emma-Henry, Emma-Snowing, and Emma-Hook, is the best balance of all.

      I didn't mean that Neal is the only reason for her walls, but more or less he is a major contributor. The fact that Emma accepted him way more easily into her life and the amount of depression she faced after he left make me think so.

      I agree completely that there should be a balance between the three relations, and I agree that it has not been kept. The romantic relation of Hook and Emma has come to the forefront from season 4 and the others have been neglected. It irked me as well.

      Perhaps the writers thought we'd had enough of Emma-Henry, Regina-Henry and Snowing-Emma with the rejections, acceptances, amnesias, etc. that's why the focus came on romantic relations with rather more of Emma-Hook and Regina-Robin and somewhat Regina-Emma friendship. 

      And that's why I made this thread and in part because season 5a was suppose to be Emma's time to shine and it made it her weak. She seemed iillogical at times, incompetent at times, and somethings didn't add up. A strong character is defined by who comepetent we perceived them, how sympathethic we feel towards them, and how proactive they are. In this arc, Hook was "stronger" than Emma and then the arc twisted in a way that was about him. That's why people are a tad upset......whoops, off-topic, lol.

      Emma was about all tyes of love with family being the standard bearer, but since 3b, but mostly season 4a, it's become more about romance (ironically during the Frozen arc when Frozen is about family). So, as it appears to me at least, the focus on Hook, or rather Emma-Hook's relationship leaves the other relationships on the backburner and that at the end hurts Emma (and others, but Emma's the main character).

      I'll ask you this question: Is the relationship good for Hook? I mean, isn't Emma still technically ignoring his death wish? Just because Rumple's the DO doesn't mean Emma just gets to bring him back, right?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      In season 4, numerous times I found Emma's behaviour a bit strange, like she was making excuses for Hook, when he himself felt guilty about it. Like when he says it's his fault the fairies got trapped in the hat, Emma says "It wasn't you, it was Gold." When he talks about what happened with Ursula, she tells him it won't affect them. She repeatedly insists "You're not that man anymore." while Hook himself is afraid that his past might affect his - their - future. Further amplified when she chooses to make him the dark one and embrace darkness herself rather than let him die.

      I thought back about it, and this is what I think. Emma has always sought love since childhood and whenever she found it she became quite attached and wanted to hold on, to change herself for it. Neal's betrayal changed some things about her, made her more closed and mistrusting, having mile high walls, but still she craved love. She found it again with her family, with Henry, with her parents, and eventually Hook as well. After Neal, Hook was the first person she had come this far with, i.e., openly admitted and accepted her love. Hook had won her love and trust, and slowly her fears were also subdued. But this created a sort of dependence for her, I don't know how to explain it exactly. Initially she had fears and inhibitions regarding her and Hook, but slowly she began to subdue them. She never truly got rid of them, but she wanted to be free of them, to be assured, that is why she made those excuses, to reassure herself and brush away her own fears. She desperately wanted this to work, and deep down was hell scared that it wouldn't, that he would die, or leave her, or something would happen and it would end. Hook gave her hope of a happy future, and she desperately wanted that future. This produced a sense of dependence in her and made her downright desperate sometimes, especially when as the dark one fears and negativity ruled her mind.

      I'll agree for the most part, but I think the Neal thing is a bit overstated. Emma;s alls comes from a number of life instances with being an orphan, Ingrid, Lily and then Neal, not simply Neal alone. Those are how her walls formed but she still had some wholes in that wall where some people squeezed past.

      The issue many have with it isn't what it is (Yeah, some people do, but that's not what I'm getting at). It's everything else around it. IF the Emma-Hook relatiohsip was the forefront and the only two major characters, then it would probably be fine, but...........surprise it's not. Henry was the first person to face Walled Emma and he was able to sowly bring down Emma's walls. It wasn't Hook doing all the heavy lifting, but Henry primarily, then Snow and Hook. Now, Hook plays a major role, but the issue is how everything is cast to the wayside. As I always say, It's not Hook, but the relationship...getting greater focus. It's nice and have beautiful moments, but when you have Snow and David doing like nothing for Emma and Henry sitting around pouting and throwing wacky villains forgiveness, except Emma; there is something off. Equal balance between Emma-Henry, Emma-Snowing, and Emma-Hook, is the best balance of all.

      I didn't mean that Neal is the only reason for her walls, but more or less he is a major contributor. The fact that Emma accepted him way more easily into her life and the amount of depression she faced after he left make me think so.

      I agree completely that there should be a balance between the three relations, and I agree that it has not been kept. The romantic relation of Hook and Emma has come to the forefront from season 4 and the others have been neglected. It irked me as well.

      Perhaps the writers thought we'd had enough of Emma-Henry, Regina-Henry and Snowing-Emma with the rejections, acceptances, amnesias, etc. that's why the focus came on romantic relations with rather more of Emma-Hook and Regina-Robin and somewhat Regina-Emma friendship. 

      And that's why I made this thread and in part because season 5a was suppose to be Emma's time to shine and it made it her weak. She seemed iillogical at times, incompetent at times, and somethings didn't add up. A strong character is defined by who comepetent we perceived them, how sympathethic we feel towards them, and how proactive they are. In this arc, Hook was "stronger" than Emma and then the arc twisted in a way that was about him. That's why people are a tad upset......whoops, off-topic, lol.

      Emma was about all tyes of love with family being the standard bearer, but since 3b, but mostly season 4a, it's become more about romance (ironically during the Frozen arc when Frozen is about family). So, as it appears to me at least, the focus on Hook, or rather Emma-Hook's relationship leaves the other relationships on the backburner and that at the end hurts Emma (and others, but Emma's the main character).

      I'll ask you this question: Is the relationship good for Hook? I mean, isn't Emma still technically ignoring his death wish? Just because Rumple's the DO doesn't mean Emma just gets to bring him back, right?

      I think it is... I mean yeah, he had to wait a long time running after her, sort of became a lovesick puppy... but overall, him running after Emma with the wish of a life is better than him running after Mr Crocodile with a wish of death...

      He has always insisted the he's a survivor and he really wants to live for her, his 'death wish' was probably what struck him as the better option in that scenario. 

      Overall, I don't want the character Hook to end coz I love him (mind you, that is NOT bcoz Colin is hot!) and I like Hook (and Emma, for that matter) as an individual character as well. That plus I'm a Captain Swan shipper so yeah, I want Emma to get him back.

      I just don't see the point of dragging everyone there. It's probably bcoz it'll occupy most of the 5b arc and if you don't show Regina or Snowing or even Henry for that long a time there will surely be an uproar.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • JMO just said that on an interview: " I think she'd rather die than not be with him". That's just great, isn't it? If you can't be with the one you love than just kill yourself. Here is the model for true love, healthy relationship and strong female character.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      JMO just said that on an interview: " I think she'd rather die than not be with him". That's just great, isn't it? If you can't be with the one you love than just kill yourself. Here is the model for true love, healthy relationship and strong female character.

      And thats why you don't pay attention to actors....oh wait, they provide valuable insight!

      It's not the dying for love part that is relevant, it's the fact that she'd die for love, leaving Henry without her. That's stupid. Even Snow sacrificed herself on faith, risking her and her baby's life, but here JMO is saying Emma would sacrifice herself just because she wants Twu Lurv. And if Emma killed herself it wouldn't even match Snow and David's moment, it would just be suicide.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:

      Farerb wrote:
      JMO just said that on an interview: " I think she'd rather die than not be with him". That's just great, isn't it? If you can't be with the one you love than just kill yourself. Here is the model for true love, healthy relationship and strong female character.

      And thats why you don't pay attention to actors....oh wait, they provide valuable insight!

      It's not the dying for love part that is relevant, it's the fact that she'd die for love, leaving Henry without her. That's stupid. Even Snow sacrificed herself on faith, risking her and her baby's life, but here JMO is saying Emma would sacrifice herself just because she wants Twu Lurv. And if Emma killed herself it wouldn't even match Snow and David's moment, it would just be suicide.


      Yes! I saw that article and couldn't believe she said that. Usually even they don't lay on the CS relationship that thick in interviews. She is essentially admitting her family and friends mean absolutly nothing to her without Hook. She would leave her son and everything she ever wanted without her because she can't go on without her semi-redeemed boyfriend/eye-candy. That's so incredibly beyond unhealthy... If that is how she feels, she has some major issues she needs to work through. Every other character has had to deal with someone they love dying, and they didn't just go, "Welp, I guess that's it for me, just gonna go kill myself now..." Dr. Hopper needs to come back and have some serious counseling sessions with Emma!

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Oh yeah, totally. I've hated Hook from the start. I hope they don't save him, because he never should've become Emma's love interest in the first place, and Neal should've lived.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • And that's why I made this thread and in part because season 5a was suppose to be Emma's time to shine and it made it her weak.


      Emma has always been weak. And she has also displayed her strength. This is the same for all of the other characters. None of them can be described in a one-dimensional manner, even if so many fans seem hellbent upon doing so.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • A great post about Hook and Hook and Emma's relationship:

      http://once-upon-a-time-psychblog.tumblr.com/post/142037755512/ive-got-99-problems-and-captain-hook-killian

      What do you think?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Surely a long read (honestly I read and skimmed most of it)!

      I'd lessen the impact of Hook's villany solely because the writers tend to think it's cool to up the villany to create a contrast for their "redemption" and it realy only shows how terrible they really are. Examples include when we are suppose to feel sorry for Regina and then we see her order the execution of an entire town. We see Hook kill his own father and threaten the lives of everyone Emma loves, and then he changes his mind, etc.

      The issue I take with the blog is that it doesn't balance everything. If we truly balance everything, all the people on the show are terrible, terrible people and none of them should be around each other.

      Now, back to Hook, the show is trying to be romantic, but the issue is that Hook's culture is 200 years ago in a fairly (progressive) medieval world. So, the things Rumple and Hook did might have been the norm of their day.

      Another point of contention (not really) is Hook being this controlling dude. Rumple is an example of controlling and maybe even Regina and Snow. Edward of Twilight is controlling and as many possible similarities, Hook isn't controlling. He's hardly manipulative and when he is it's quite obvious and it's usually seduction. I'll agree that Hook masks himself, pretty much like he did with Liam when they joined the Navy. He had a standard to reach and the love of someone close to him that allowed for success.

      So, in essence, Hook is a weak, weak man with lowly efforts of seductive manipulation and needs the support of others to help him do the right thing. That much is shown. However, Hook is not the only man with the problems. Hook can take a self-esteem course, attend some AA meetings, and some anger management sessions and be set. Emma is the one that whitewashes Hook's sins and is selfishly clinging to him and ignoring his wishes, at the present moment. At this point, Emma is the one doing harm to herself and maybe a few others.

      Last major point is that I think they hardly remember that Emma (and Regina) are mothers and their child holds an important role. Even "cursed" Emma asked Henry about Walsh!

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • What a complicated discussion we have here! 

      Who the most selfish and manipulative person out of Emma and Hook and who is the greater cause of distress in their relationship should not really matter. At the end of the day they both seem to love each other despite all their problems and I guess it is saying that people will do anything for the person they love even if it makes no no sense to any other person. Love is blind, deaf and dumb. 

      As far as the relationship being damaging to Henry, mmmmm. Interesting point, I suppose looking at it objectivly without knowing to much about their backstory or an outside perspective I guess it looks COMPLICATED, but damaging? I am not sure.

      Ok lets look at Emma's trip to Underworld and lets see why the people came with her, Henry included. First of all we need to understand why Emma would risk everything and I mean everything (as Gold pointed out its a very dangerous place) for Hook. Many many reason's she is in love (as I mentioned above love is blind, deaf and dumb), she is guilty (She blames herself ((rightiously!) for him becoming a dark one), she is weak - at least in love (she has not had the best luck when it comes to love, everyone she has loved ends up betraying her, lying to her or just being a flying monkey. Even her family did not show any love for her for obvious reasons and Neal loved Emma but in the end betrayed her again. She knows she loves Hook and that Hook loves her so she will do anything to protect it) and she also knews Rumples secrete and that Hooks death meant nothing. So I say she has every reason to make that journey. 

      But why would she allow her family, Regina and Robin to follow? Well I guess the main reason is she is scared. She believes she will be stronger if she has back up there. Ok so why take her son? Henry is a teenager and Henry wants to be a hero, we have seen that actually he has plenty of bravery considering what we whitnessed in the alternate reality. I would not want to take my son down to the underworld but I guess Emma thought he would be safer with her and Regina, (although why Neal and Baby Hood was left I am not sure, maybe practicallity) Plus I guess Henry really seems to like Hook, and if he knew his mothers potential for love was about to be taken I guess he would fight and move heaven and hell (yes I intended the pun) to go with them. I should also mention that Emma prob only thought they would be in the underworld for a day at the most, she actually even tried to get her family to leave straight away because of the danger but they refused to go. 

      Henry may be the biggest love Emma as but it should never be the only love she should get. Hook may be a dangerous pirate and may even have done things while Henry as known him that are actually dispicable such as shooting Belle and giving into the darkness when he became the Dark One. Now people blame Hook for wanting to kill Emma's family including Henry despite him being influenced by the darkness. But Hook told her he would be influenced by the darkness so his behaviour is a massive result of him being a barstool (Sorry don't want to swear) yes Emma made him a dark one but she believed she had no choice. But Henry seems to have accepted Hooks past and Hooks behaviour as the Dark One because he loves his mom. He knows that having just him in her life is not good for her, its the same feeling he has with Regina and Robin he knows that there should be room in their lives for both types of love. 

      I know that people will argue that Emma would not have behaved this way in earlier seasons and that Henry was more valuable then any man, which is true. But things have changed now, people have changed and people have grown up both metaphorically and literally, Even in NYC Henry was determined to have Emma fall in love with someone and she was open to it, well not 100% but close. It may seem damaging to Henry when Hook came back and tried to get inbetween Emma and Walsh (If we imagine Walsh was not a flying monkey) because from Henry's perpective Hook was breaking up a good relationship (but as it happens Walsh was a flying monkey and Henry was cursed) But I think Emma needs this relationship with Hook as much as Hook needs it too. Henry needs to see his mom in love and as Hook has not actually done anything harmful to Henry, because if he did then I would imagine Emma would say f**k you Hook, I say let them be.

      To me as well the more dangerous relationship for Henry is his relationship with Gold. and his more complcated relationship with Robin and Baby Hood. I mean Zelena is his step great great aunt and his adopted aunt and Robin is his adopted mother's and step great gandmother's true love which to me means they are pretty much married and baby hook will be like his adopted step sister and his step step aunt. Wow yeah I am confused already. Then theres Belle and baby Belle (Not the cheese). :)

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    • Sorry for the long post lol

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    • The biggest issue with Love is Blind, etc which I agree with them showing it that way is, not Emma looking like a weak woman, or etc, but that proves that "Love is Weakness" which would go against anything thios show has been about especially in season 2, where Emma proclaims that love is strength. If love is strength than Emma shouldn't be blinded, dead, and dumb because of love. Unless that's the twisted message that the writers are sending....

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    • I would just like to say that if your love makes you take your fourteen year old son down to the Underworld, then you need to end that relationship, get help, and then maybe get back in it once you can make competent decisions and still be in love.

      Love should never be a motivator for you making dumb decisions that put others you love at risk.

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    • MoonlitShadowsoftheHumanSoul wrote:
      I would just like to say that if your love makes you take your fourteen year old son down to the Underworld, then you need to end that relationship, get help, and then maybe get back in it once you can make competent decisions and still be in love.

      Love should never be a motivator for you making dumb decisions that put others you love at risk.

      Well actually Hook never asked Emma to come to the underworld, let alone bring her 14 year old son (I thought he was actually only 13? I could be wrong and it really makes no difference at all lol but just checking.) 

      In regards Eskaver's post. Yeah I see where you are coming from. And you make a good point but I always assumed that love is the greatest thing in the Once universe and I think in Emma's case it does prove that love is a strength. Because in her mind she is doing something that she knows is dangerous but is the right thing to do for the person you are to spend the rest of her life with. I mean if Snow was trapped in the underworld Charming would do everything in his power to rescue her including a trip to the Undwerworld and vice versa. I understand that Snow and Charming would not take their 13/14 year old child with them because they are heroes from a young age, we know they still would do the whatever it takes. We see this especially when they are responsible for casting the second curse and sharing a heart, it was unspeakable for them to curse a group of people (again) but they did it for love, for each other and for Emma. 

      So Emma going to the underworld was only supossed to be for like a afternoon and she did not want everyone to come they came because they wanted to plus yeah as I mentioned she prob did want them to come on a subconsious level because she was scared. She could have left Henry but would he have been safter? Portals flying about anyone could be taken.

      I am not Hook's biggest fan, he has had a long and dirty history, he has been known to be manipulative and can come across as very cocky and arrogant. However Emma is not perfect (well no where near as in-perfect as Hook but still) she is very stand offish when it comes to love or at least in the comminication of love, she never wants to say the words I love you because everytime she does it is a disaster, she also can be very cold when new people come into her life and treats them with so much suspision (August, Tamara, and initially even Henry) It is very hard to get close with Emma and thats not hard to understand why. As a result we all know about Emma's walls, and that she is just trying to protect herself but she as come to the point when she actually believes in the concept of love, not just for Henry and Snow and Charming but for Hook. And her doing the unspeakable aka going to the underworld and taking friends and family and Henry to this dangerous place because she loves Hook and the others know this. I always assumed the others accompanied Emma to support her and help her but really they did it because they like Hook. They can actually see that Hook is the best thing for Emma (Except for having Henry). Charmings oppinion of Hook seems to have changed as well, he used to think he was not right for Emma, that his past made him unsuitable but now he is risking his life because he knows how much Hook means to her and to everyone else. 

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    • I don't blame Hook for what Emma did, I blame Emma. And if her love makes her think taking her son to the Underworld is a good idea, then she needs to dump her bf and go get some therapy and common sense lessons.

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    • I blame Emma slightly but in her defence in her mind the plan was to be in and out in a few hours. She thought (admitlly stupidly) she could be in, save Hook, be out with no complication or any difficuties, which we all know would never happen to Emma and co (she ant that lucky lol) But when she was in and realised it may take time, it could be as dangerous as Rumple said she attempts to get everyone out and home including Henry. Plus as I mentioned in my original post she thought Henry would be safer with her and her light/dark powers and Regina and Gold.

      I also will say Henry is not as young as his age dictates, he seems more mature then his 13/14 year old self. He prob would not have stayed, he has been known to do things behind his parents back, aka try and release Zelena from her cell at the hospital, i mean he found Emma using a stolen credit card from Snow and traveled to Boston to find her and he was only 11 then. He may of found his own way to the Underworld, especially if he is told to stay at hoe when he thinks he can be of help. (I am not sure how he would have travelled there but I guess if we can believe Ruby had harvested beans from Tiny I guess Henry could have too.) Plus now he is in the underworld he is actually usefull.  

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Okay, the title is a bit dramatic, or perhaps not dramatic enough.

      Hook's relationship with Emma is one of the many polarizing things in fandom lore; however, I could care less about who you ship Emma with. This is about Henry.

      From the Swan Song thread:

      "I have my problems with Hook. I have my problems with the show's sense of morality, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out and shouldn't take long to figure out that he shouldn't be trying to kill off his love's family. Say what you want about their relationship, but look underneath all the pretty and you see the ugly. He sat there happily condemning the beloved's family of people that he befriended to death, but then saw his beloved choking to change. That may not bother you, but let's recap:

      Hook is "killing"  or allowing the killing of:

      - Emma's parents, whom she worked hard to love and to find.

      - Emma's friends

      - But more importantly, Emma's son

      I may often hearken back to season 3 being the good old days, but nothing stood between Emma and her son. Not Regina, not her parents, and not love interest # 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Now, there's this pesky puppy love that pushing between Emma's love for her son and herself. Pretty much her romance with Hook is like the dagger to Rumple and Baelfire. Nothing ever stood between Rumple and Bae. Rumple crippled himself to see his son. Rumple became the dark One to save his son. But then the dagger came and risked the wellbeing of his son. Rumple's a bad, bad man. But replace Rumple with Emma, Bae with Henry and the dagger with Hook. Alter some of the situations and it's pretty much similar.

      I like Hook a bit and it's understandable that Emma has a love interest. It's even passable with the extreme levels of forgiveness, but at this point her relationship with Hook is hurting and has hurted relationship with Henry."

      Now many have complained that Regina dumping Henry for a while because of forest man was uncalled for, but this beat that by a mile. Emma has tarnished her son's first love, sucumbed to darkness, memory-wiped her family and friends for the love of this man she should have let die. Emma of old (aka before season 4 and onwards) didn't let anything stand in her way and her son's happiness because of her love for her son. Even Emma's annoying "Go back to NYC" was reasonable because she just wanted Henry to be happy. But now, she's devolved into someone else. This new Emma threatens her son's livelihood because of reasons. She ends of failing, not because of her parents or son, but because of a man that wandered into her life. But this isn't some feminist's verbage or something, it's just a clear observation.

      Emma never cred to pursue any relationship unless it ws good for her son and if it was best. During Neverland, she dismissed ThingOne and ThingTwo because her son was in danger. In season 3, she dismissed another start and what home was for her son's potential happiness. Even in seaosn 4, she's saved everyone. But now in 5a, she's seemingly not doing that anymore. She's trying to balance many types of love and where her love for her son usually won, it didn't.

      Emma;s a grown woman and she did make her own decisions, but so in recent events Hook and Emma's relationship has taken a turn for the worse.

      Hook-after being forcefully turned into the DO-nearly allowed the killing of Emma's family, but didn't, because he broke free. Because at his core, he is heroic. He was horrified and guilt-ridden at what he had done.

      Emma hurting Henry and Violet's relationship had nothing to do with Hook in the slightest. She was the Dark One and Dark Ones do bad stuff. And she desperately tried to make it up to him.

      Remember when Emma said "I can't lose you too?" because after losing Neal and Graham she was too afraid to get into a relationship because both her exes were dead? Can we blame Emma for bringing Hook back? Yes it was selfish but can you really blame her? And then she desperately wanted to put things right. The mind-wiping was a stupid move, but it was to fix the whole thing.

      And Emma has taken Henry's feelings into consideration regarding this relationship. She asked Henry if he would be okay with her dating Hook and Henry, although he said he wasn't, actually pushed her into the diner to ask him out.

      Emma was terrified when Henry was in danger and was willing to sacrifice herself to save him and her family. But please, tell me more about how she doesn't care about him.

      What the Hell (pun intended) is wrong with having two True Loves, both of which love you more than anything and wanting both? Emma, who grew up with no one, now has many people who love her. I think it's a bit unfair to her to say "Yeah well, you can't care about anyone else, only Henry? Killian, a man you love, just died and you have a way to save him? Tough."

      5x11 showed Henry and her family are her priority.

      With regard to the UW, he is going because a)the plot needs him to be there and b) come on the child got into an alternate reality last season, he'd be able to get down to the UnderWorld on his own. In a deleted scene,, Henry said "Leave me behind, I'll come anyway."

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    • Ray Donovan wrote:
      I will always remember the detriment of Emma's character with her treatment of Will. She expressedly locked him up for ruining her date. And then only gave the man a pop tart to eat.

      She, the orphan who we saw steal food to eat? She who has been locked up to a crime that she didn't commit? That is how you going to treat a guy. A guy that has been assaulted by Hook and who threatened Will to not say anything. And we can't blame that on "The Dark One" either.

      Also, she didn't lock Hook up after shooting Belle (he got shot). And also thinking it cool to allow said person to stay with a guy several times to protect her??? 

      Oh, sometimes she forgets she has a son that she has true love with. Really, being with Hook has not done one thing positive for her.

      And I refuse to accept the narrative that Emma Swan was fundmentally broken woman that wears leather to protect herself, and only a noble pirate can break her walls to love and for Emma wear white virginal dresses that don't fit Emma "bailbondsperson" Swan because that's the "real" her.

      Emma has been shown to be morally grey to people who irritate her in the past. In the pilot, she slammed a man's head onto a steering wheel for pushing her buttons.

      And she did-she handcuffed him to a hospital bed (which he needed because he broke his ribs) and then proceeded to torture him.

      She does not forget about Henry- in fact she does the opposite. She asked Henry if he were okay with her and Killian, made sure they got along, apologised for not being able to help him, was horrified when she accidentally hurt Henry, was incredibly guilty over using Violet to hurt him and was ready to kill Hook to save him.

      It was not only Hook who broke down her walls-Henry did too. Hook broke down her romantic-walls and Henry her familial ones.

      Lastly, Emma is both a princess and a bailbondsperson. She wears leather and dresses.

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    • Aine, I think you miss the subtleties in the posts. It isn't that Hook is a terrible person; it's that bad things have occured because of the relationship.

      Emma gave into Darkness because of whom?

      Emma choose to let her son go into the Underworld because of whom, for whom?

      If the answer is Hook, then that's the issue. It's not because Hook is a terrible person, just that when they are together, neither gets continuously better as a result.

      And Emma's not a princess because Snow's not a Queen, technically still.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Aine, I think you miss the subtleties in the posts. It isn't that Hook is a terrible person; it's that bad things have occured because of the relationship.

      Emma gave into Darkness because of whom?

      Emma choose to let her son go into the Underworld because of whom, for whom?

      If the answer is Hook, then that's the issue. It's not because Hook is a terrible person, just that when they are together, neither gets continuously better as a result.

      And Emma's not a princess because Snow's not a Queen, technically still.

      I didn't say that you said that Hook was a terrible person.

      Emma gave into the darkness out of love but never planned to remain as the Dark One. It's the same situation as Rumple givign into the darkness for Bae.

      Henry is in the UW for the plot. Jared needs screentime. Plus he's the author and got six adults with him (eight if you count Rumple and Belle).

      Well she's a sub-princess? Royalty anyhow. That wasn't my point-my point was she can wear dresses and leather it doesn't make her weak.

      I think Emma and Hook's relationship is beneficial for both of them. Hook got Emma to forgive her parents in s4 and worked through her fears in 3b. And he has become a better person and is still working on being better.

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    • Well, I would argue that Hook didn't really help Emma improve greatly though as she did for him. While romantic, I believe that change isn't something that is or should be thrust upon someone because then it walks a fine line. Example: Hook went dark and there was nothing but evilness because all of his goodness hinged on Emma. If Hook betrayed Emma, Emma wouldn't go super dark like he did. That's because as Hook shows, he is dependant on others to keep him up and until he outgrows that (if he did yet has to be determined) then it's not that beneficial.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Well, I would argue that Hook didn't really help Emma improve greatly though as she did for him. While romantic, I believe that change isn't something that is or should be thrust upon someone because then it walks a fine line. Example: Hook went dark and there was nothing but evilness because all of his goodness hinged on Emma. If Hook betrayed Emma, Emma wouldn't go super dark like he did. That's because as Hook shows, he is dependant on others to keep him up and until he outgrows that (if he did yet has to be determined) then it's not that beneficial.

      I think he did. Emma was so damaged that she wore necklace as a reminder to never trust anyone again, now she puts her trust in him. She wanted to take Henry out of SB, he was the one telling her not to, trying to get her to see her home there.

      Also, two different types of change. Emma's was trust issues, Killian's was redemption.

      I think he already has. He puts others before himself when there is no reward for him in the end. He doesn't care what he gets, he cares what other people get. 

      Hook went fully dark because he was angry at how she betrayed him and then lied to him about Excalibur and controlled him with it. And in the end, there was goodness. Becuase at his core, he is heroic. Not because "his goodness hinged on Emma".His anger was never about whether or not Emma was there or not!

      He has shown that he is perfectly capable of making his own decisions and those decisions are good.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Well, I would argue that Hook didn't really help Emma improve greatly though as she did for him. While romantic, I believe that change isn't something that is or should be thrust upon someone because then it walks a fine line. Example: Hook went dark and there was nothing but evilness because all of his goodness hinged on Emma. If Hook betrayed Emma, Emma wouldn't go super dark like he did. That's because as Hook shows, he is dependant on others to keep him up and until he outgrows that (if he did yet has to be determined) then it's not that beneficial.
      I think he did. Emma was so damaged that she wore necklace as a reminder to never trust anyone again, now she puts her trust in him. She wanted to take Henry out of SB, he was the one telling her not to, trying to get her to see her home there.

      Also, two different types of change. Emma's was trust issues, Killian's was redemption.

      I think he already has. He puts others before himself when there is no reward for him in the end. He doesn't care what he gets, he cares what other people get. 

      Hook went fully dark because he was angry at how she betrayed him and then lied to him about Excalibur and controlled him with it. And in the end, there was goodness. Becuase at his core, he is heroic. Not because "his goodness hinged on Emma".His anger was never about whether or not Emma was there or not!

      He has shown that he is perfectly capable of making his own decisions and those decisions are good.

      He tried to fix the problems that he created. That doesn't make someone hero. 

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    • CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Well, I would argue that Hook didn't really help Emma improve greatly though as she did for him. While romantic, I believe that change isn't something that is or should be thrust upon someone because then it walks a fine line. Example: Hook went dark and there was nothing but evilness because all of his goodness hinged on Emma. If Hook betrayed Emma, Emma wouldn't go super dark like he did. That's because as Hook shows, he is dependant on others to keep him up and until he outgrows that (if he did yet has to be determined) then it's not that beneficial.
      I think he did. Emma was so damaged that she wore necklace as a reminder to never trust anyone again, now she puts her trust in him. She wanted to take Henry out of SB, he was the one telling her not to, trying to get her to see her home there.

      Also, two different types of change. Emma's was trust issues, Killian's was redemption.

      I think he already has. He puts others before himself when there is no reward for him in the end. He doesn't care what he gets, he cares what other people get. 

      Hook went fully dark because he was angry at how she betrayed him and then lied to him about Excalibur and controlled him with it. And in the end, there was goodness. Becuase at his core, he is heroic. Not because "his goodness hinged on Emma".His anger was never about whether or not Emma was there or not!

      He has shown that he is perfectly capable of making his own decisions and those decisions are good.

      He tried to fix the problems that he created. That doesn't make someone hero. 

      Exactly. He doesn't get to be called a hero for not being a crappy person who decided not to kill everyone at the end.

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    • Farerb wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Well, I would argue that Hook didn't really help Emma improve greatly though as she did for him. While romantic, I believe that change isn't something that is or should be thrust upon someone because then it walks a fine line. Example: Hook went dark and there was nothing but evilness because all of his goodness hinged on Emma. If Hook betrayed Emma, Emma wouldn't go super dark like he did. That's because as Hook shows, he is dependant on others to keep him up and until he outgrows that (if he did yet has to be determined) then it's not that beneficial.
      I think he did. Emma was so damaged that she wore necklace as a reminder to never trust anyone again, now she puts her trust in him. She wanted to take Henry out of SB, he was the one telling her not to, trying to get her to see her home there.

      Also, two different types of change. Emma's was trust issues, Killian's was redemption.

      I think he already has. He puts others before himself when there is no reward for him in the end. He doesn't care what he gets, he cares what other people get. 

      Hook went fully dark because he was angry at how she betrayed him and then lied to him about Excalibur and controlled him with it. And in the end, there was goodness. Becuase at his core, he is heroic. Not because "his goodness hinged on Emma".His anger was never about whether or not Emma was there or not!

      He has shown that he is perfectly capable of making his own decisions and those decisions are good.

      He tried to fix the problems that he created. That doesn't make someone hero. 
      Exactly. He doesn't get to be called a hero for not being a crappy person who decided not to kill everyone at the end.

      To add to that, think of it like this: A guy sets fire to your house and your family is trapped inside. The guy, after seeing what damage he would do to you, helps put out the fire. That guy is a jerk, not some hero.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Well, I would argue that Hook didn't really help Emma improve greatly though as she did for him. While romantic, I believe that change isn't something that is or should be thrust upon someone because then it walks a fine line. Example: Hook went dark and there was nothing but evilness because all of his goodness hinged on Emma. If Hook betrayed Emma, Emma wouldn't go super dark like he did. That's because as Hook shows, he is dependant on others to keep him up and until he outgrows that (if he did yet has to be determined) then it's not that beneficial.
      I think he did. Emma was so damaged that she wore necklace as a reminder to never trust anyone again, now she puts her trust in him. She wanted to take Henry out of SB, he was the one telling her not to, trying to get her to see her home there.

      Also, two different types of change. Emma's was trust issues, Killian's was redemption.

      I think he already has. He puts others before himself when there is no reward for him in the end. He doesn't care what he gets, he cares what other people get. 

      Hook went fully dark because he was angry at how she betrayed him and then lied to him about Excalibur and controlled him with it. And in the end, there was goodness. Becuase at his core, he is heroic. Not because "his goodness hinged on Emma".His anger was never about whether or not Emma was there or not!

      He has shown that he is perfectly capable of making his own decisions and those decisions are good.

      He tried to fix the problems that he created. That doesn't make someone hero. 
      Exactly. He doesn't get to be called a hero for not being a crappy person who decided not to kill everyone at the end.
      To add to that, think of it like this: A guy sets fire to your house and your family is trapped inside. The guy, after seeing what damage he would do to you, helps put out the fire. That guy is a jerk, not some hero.

      Did you miss the part where he committed suicide to stop it and he knew he would be suffering greatly or......

      And I repeat, HE NEVER WANTED THE DARK CURSE

      Let me repeat; at his core he is selfless.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Well, I would argue that Hook didn't really help Emma improve greatly though as she did for him. While romantic, I believe that change isn't something that is or should be thrust upon someone because then it walks a fine line. Example: Hook went dark and there was nothing but evilness because all of his goodness hinged on Emma. If Hook betrayed Emma, Emma wouldn't go super dark like he did. That's because as Hook shows, he is dependant on others to keep him up and until he outgrows that (if he did yet has to be determined) then it's not that beneficial.
      I think he did. Emma was so damaged that she wore necklace as a reminder to never trust anyone again, now she puts her trust in him. She wanted to take Henry out of SB, he was the one telling her not to, trying to get her to see her home there.

      Also, two different types of change. Emma's was trust issues, Killian's was redemption.

      I think he already has. He puts others before himself when there is no reward for him in the end. He doesn't care what he gets, he cares what other people get. 

      Hook went fully dark because he was angry at how she betrayed him and then lied to him about Excalibur and controlled him with it. And in the end, there was goodness. Becuase at his core, he is heroic. Not because "his goodness hinged on Emma".His anger was never about whether or not Emma was there or not!

      He has shown that he is perfectly capable of making his own decisions and those decisions are good.

      He tried to fix the problems that he created. That doesn't make someone hero. 
      Exactly. He doesn't get to be called a hero for not being a crappy person who decided not to kill everyone at the end.
      To add to that, think of it like this: A guy sets fire to your house and your family is trapped inside. The guy, after seeing what damage he would do to you, helps put out the fire. That guy is a jerk, not some hero.
      Did you miss the part where he committed suicide to stop it and he knew he would be suffering greatly or......

      And I repeat, HE NEVER WANTED THE DARK CURSE

      Let me repeat; at his core he is selfless.

      No. He is selfish. The only reason he stopped was because Nimue was hurting Rmma (hurting, not killing). If she hadn't done that, he would have continued as he planned, he couldn't care less about her family, HER SON. He stopped only when something happened to her.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Well, I would argue that Hook didn't really help Emma improve greatly though as she did for him. While romantic, I believe that change isn't something that is or should be thrust upon someone because then it walks a fine line. Example: Hook went dark and there was nothing but evilness because all of his goodness hinged on Emma. If Hook betrayed Emma, Emma wouldn't go super dark like he did. That's because as Hook shows, he is dependant on others to keep him up and until he outgrows that (if he did yet has to be determined) then it's not that beneficial.
      I think he did. Emma was so damaged that she wore necklace as a reminder to never trust anyone again, now she puts her trust in him. She wanted to take Henry out of SB, he was the one telling her not to, trying to get her to see her home there.

      Also, two different types of change. Emma's was trust issues, Killian's was redemption.

      I think he already has. He puts others before himself when there is no reward for him in the end. He doesn't care what he gets, he cares what other people get. 

      Hook went fully dark because he was angry at how she betrayed him and then lied to him about Excalibur and controlled him with it. And in the end, there was goodness. Becuase at his core, he is heroic. Not because "his goodness hinged on Emma".His anger was never about whether or not Emma was there or not!

      He has shown that he is perfectly capable of making his own decisions and those decisions are good.

      He tried to fix the problems that he created. That doesn't make someone hero. 
      Exactly. He doesn't get to be called a hero for not being a crappy person who decided not to kill everyone at the end.
      To add to that, think of it like this: A guy sets fire to your house and your family is trapped inside. The guy, after seeing what damage he would do to you, helps put out the fire. That guy is a jerk, not some hero.
      Did you miss the part where he committed suicide to stop it and he knew he would be suffering greatly or......

      And I repeat, HE NEVER WANTED THE DARK CURSE

      Let me repeat; at his core he is selfless.

      Let me remind you something. In 4.20, Regina said, "Robin isn't my happy ending. My happy ending is finally feeling at home in the world. And Robin's jus a part of that world.". But in 4.15 Hook said to Emma "Don't you know Emma? [My happy ending] is you.". We can clearly understand here that the only one Hook cares about is Emma, not her child, not her family. The only reason he stopped sending Charming family to UW, is because Emma was being hurt. If Emma dies someday, I doubt Hook'd stay with them and become a father figure for Henry. 

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    • Farerb wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Well, I would argue that Hook didn't really help Emma improve greatly though as she did for him. While romantic, I believe that change isn't something that is or should be thrust upon someone because then it walks a fine line. Example: Hook went dark and there was nothing but evilness because all of his goodness hinged on Emma. If Hook betrayed Emma, Emma wouldn't go super dark like he did. That's because as Hook shows, he is dependant on others to keep him up and until he outgrows that (if he did yet has to be determined) then it's not that beneficial.
      I think he did. Emma was so damaged that she wore necklace as a reminder to never trust anyone again, now she puts her trust in him. She wanted to take Henry out of SB, he was the one telling her not to, trying to get her to see her home there.

      Also, two different types of change. Emma's was trust issues, Killian's was redemption.

      I think he already has. He puts others before himself when there is no reward for him in the end. He doesn't care what he gets, he cares what other people get. 

      Hook went fully dark because he was angry at how she betrayed him and then lied to him about Excalibur and controlled him with it. And in the end, there was goodness. Becuase at his core, he is heroic. Not because "his goodness hinged on Emma".His anger was never about whether or not Emma was there or not!

      He has shown that he is perfectly capable of making his own decisions and those decisions are good.

      He tried to fix the problems that he created. That doesn't make someone hero. 
      Exactly. He doesn't get to be called a hero for not being a crappy person who decided not to kill everyone at the end.
      To add to that, think of it like this: A guy sets fire to your house and your family is trapped inside. The guy, after seeing what damage he would do to you, helps put out the fire. That guy is a jerk, not some hero.
      Did you miss the part where he committed suicide to stop it and he knew he would be suffering greatly or......

      And I repeat, HE NEVER WANTED THE DARK CURSE

      Let me repeat; at his core he is selfless.

      No. He is selfish. The only reason he stopped was because Nimue was hurting Rmma (hurting, not killing). If she hadn't done that, he would have continued as he planned, he couldn't care less about her family, HER SON. He stopped only when something happened to her.

      But Emma would never have been hurt; she couldn't die. Seeing her in pain shook him back to his senses.

      Also, flash back to 3b, when Killian told Henry to get to safety no matter what happened to him. And 4x22 when he told Emma to go and save Henry, no matter what happened to him.

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    • CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Well, I would argue that Hook didn't really help Emma improve greatly though as she did for him. While romantic, I believe that change isn't something that is or should be thrust upon someone because then it walks a fine line. Example: Hook went dark and there was nothing but evilness because all of his goodness hinged on Emma. If Hook betrayed Emma, Emma wouldn't go super dark like he did. That's because as Hook shows, he is dependant on others to keep him up and until he outgrows that (if he did yet has to be determined) then it's not that beneficial.
      I think he did. Emma was so damaged that she wore necklace as a reminder to never trust anyone again, now she puts her trust in him. She wanted to take Henry out of SB, he was the one telling her not to, trying to get her to see her home there.

      Also, two different types of change. Emma's was trust issues, Killian's was redemption.

      I think he already has. He puts others before himself when there is no reward for him in the end. He doesn't care what he gets, he cares what other people get. 

      Hook went fully dark because he was angry at how she betrayed him and then lied to him about Excalibur and controlled him with it. And in the end, there was goodness. Becuase at his core, he is heroic. Not because "his goodness hinged on Emma".His anger was never about whether or not Emma was there or not!

      He has shown that he is perfectly capable of making his own decisions and those decisions are good.

      He tried to fix the problems that he created. That doesn't make someone hero. 
      Exactly. He doesn't get to be called a hero for not being a crappy person who decided not to kill everyone at the end.
      To add to that, think of it like this: A guy sets fire to your house and your family is trapped inside. The guy, after seeing what damage he would do to you, helps put out the fire. That guy is a jerk, not some hero.
      Did you miss the part where he committed suicide to stop it and he knew he would be suffering greatly or......

      And I repeat, HE NEVER WANTED THE DARK CURSE

      Let me repeat; at his core he is selfless.

      Let me remind you something. In 4.20, Regina said, "Robin isn't my happy ending. My happy ending is finally feeling at home in the world. And Robin's jus a part of that world.". But in 4.15 Hook said to Emma "Don't you know Emma? [My happy ending] is you.". We can clearly understand here that the only one Hook cares about is Emma, not her child, not her family. The only reason he stopped sending Charming family to UW, is because Emma was being hurt. If Emma dies someday, I doubt Hook'd stay with them and become a father figure for Henry. 

      Hook has saved Henry from his own personal hellhole, fought off flying monkeys for him-putting himself at great risk and told Emma to go save Henry while he fought and died for him. He also encouraged her to forgive her parents in 4x20. If he was really selfish, he would have been all "great, now I've got her all to myself!"

      As for 4x16, Emma's pretty much the only one who gives a shit about him so..... I took that line as "my happy ending is you being safe" which is evident in 5x08 "I'll just die happy knowing that you'll have [a future]." So selfish, damn.

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    • Yeah, perfect video. So true though...

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    • Vid is okay, but you don't really even need that when in 517 (this most recent episode) you had Hook: "You idiots don't have a plan."

      Emma: "I have a crazy idea."

      Hook: "Yes, love. I can never doubt you, my love. Never ever."

      It's hilarious because he's being harsh towards the people that he almost killed that came to help save him and risked their lives.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Vid is okay, but you don't really even need that when in 517 (this most recent episode) you had Hook: "You idiots don't have a plan."

      Emma: "I have a crazy idea."

      Hook: "Yes, love. I can never doubt you, my love. Never ever."

      It's hilarious because he's being harsh towards the people that he almost killed that came to help save him and risked their lives.

      I'm honestly wondering if what you'd have been like if Hook had said "No Emma I don't believe you." Probably something along the lines of "blah blah how dare he not believe in Emma." Also I must have missed the part where he said 'idiots.' How very dare he be skeptical of Regina's plan, which he did not doubt after she explained it.

      And I'm assuming you're referencing Henry here, so I'll bring him up. Yes, Killian is so awful for not treating Henry like a precious special snowflake. Henry's not a baby, he wants to be taken seriously, meaning he can take a little "You should be doing what you said you'd be doing."

      I'm pretty sure Killian could run into a burning building and die saving a bunch of orphans and you people would still find a way to twist this into 'HE'S A VILLAIN!!!!!!!'

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    • Aine1989 wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:
      Vid is okay, but you don't really even need that when in 517 (this most recent episode) you had Hook: "You idiots don't have a plan."

      Emma: "I have a crazy idea."

      Hook: "Yes, love. I can never doubt you, my love. Never ever."

      It's hilarious because he's being harsh towards the people that he almost killed that came to help save him and risked their lives.

      I'm honestly wondering if what you'd have been like if Hook had said "No Emma I don't believe you." Probably something along the lines of "blah blah how dare he not believe in Emma." Also I must have missed the part where he said 'idiots.' How very dare he be skeptical of Regina's plan, which he did not doubt after she explained it.

      And I'm assuming you're referencing Henry here, so I'll bring him up. Yes, Killian is so awful for not treating Henry like a precious special snowflake. Henry's not a baby, he wants to be taken seriously, meaning he can take a little "You should be doing what you said you'd be doing."

      I'm pretty sure Killian could run into a burning building and die saving a bunch of orphans and you people would still find a way to twist this into 'HE'S A VILLAIN!!!!!!!'

      He still acts like a d-bag, and there's a pattern here to the way he treats Emma and other people. Regina mostly has good ideas (until the plot needs her to be OOC and act dumb), so him questioning Regina while saying that he trust Emma's instincts blindly is wrong. Judging Henry was uncalled for and ungrateful since Henry does it for him, he can show a little gratitude and not be a complete ass about it (and you can like him, but atleast admit he was wrong here, I like Regina a lot and I often criticize her character and how hypocritical she can be).

      Hook's dialogue has a pattern here and it's ridiculous. It is basically: Hook to everyone else who are not Emma: sass, snark, judgement etc... Hook to Emma: manpain, angst, teenage love unrealistic proclamation. Emma to Hook: affirmation, teenage love unrealistic proclamation.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Vid is okay, but you don't really even need that when in 517 (this most recent episode) you had Hook: "You idiots don't have a plan."

      Emma: "I have a crazy idea."

      Hook: "Yes, love. I can never doubt you, my love. Never ever."

      It's hilarious because he's being harsh towards the people that he almost killed that came to help save him and risked their lives.

      I'm honestly wondering if what you'd have been like if Hook had said "No Emma I don't believe you." Probably something along the lines of "blah blah how dare he not believe in Emma." Also I must have missed the part where he said 'idiots.' How very dare he be skeptical of Regina's plan, which he did not doubt after she explained it.

      And I'm assuming you're referencing Henry here, so I'll bring him up. Yes, Killian is so awful for not treating Henry like a precious special snowflake. Henry's not a baby, he wants to be taken seriously, meaning he can take a little "You should be doing what you said you'd be doing."

      I'm pretty sure Killian could run into a burning building and die saving a bunch of orphans and you people would still find a way to twist this into 'HE'S A VILLAIN!!!!!!!'

      Nope, not at all. It would go with how things were presented. First scene: Hook's doubting everyone's ideas. Next Scene: Hook decides that he should not doubt Emma. The issue there isn't his agreeing or disagreeing, but going from one point to another. I'll provide exact quotes in a matter of time so you can see for yourself. Just balance and yes, I know those you like more tend to get a biased response, but Hook's episode was all about putting people on pedastals that he couldn not reach.

      And I wasn't talking about Henry specifically, but Killian did straighten up and thanked David for coming down to help save him.

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    • Farerb wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:
      Vid is okay, but you don't really even need that when in 517 (this most recent episode) you had Hook: "You idiots don't have a plan."

      Emma: "I have a crazy idea."

      Hook: "Yes, love. I can never doubt you, my love. Never ever."

      It's hilarious because he's being harsh towards the people that he almost killed that came to help save him and risked their lives.

      I'm honestly wondering if what you'd have been like if Hook had said "No Emma I don't believe you." Probably something along the lines of "blah blah how dare he not believe in Emma." Also I must have missed the part where he said 'idiots.' How very dare he be skeptical of Regina's plan, which he did not doubt after she explained it.

      And I'm assuming you're referencing Henry here, so I'll bring him up. Yes, Killian is so awful for not treating Henry like a precious special snowflake. Henry's not a baby, he wants to be taken seriously, meaning he can take a little "You should be doing what you said you'd be doing."

      I'm pretty sure Killian could run into a burning building and die saving a bunch of orphans and you people would still find a way to twist this into 'HE'S A VILLAIN!!!!!!!'

      He still acts like a d-bag, and there's a pattern here to the way he treats Emma and other people. Regina mostly has good ideas (until the plot needs her to be OOC and act dumb), so him questioning Regina while saying that he trust Emma's instincts blindly is wrong. Judging Henry was uncalled for and ungrateful since Henry does it for him, he can show a little gratitude and not be a complete ass about it (and you can like him, but atleast admit he was wrong here, I like Regina a lot and I often criticize her character and how hypocritical she can be).

      Hook's dialogue has a pattern here and it's ridiculous. It is basically: Hook to everyone else who are not Emma: sass, snark, judgement etc... Hook to Emma: manpain, angst, teenage love unrealistic proclamation. Emma to Hook: affirmation, teenage love unrealistic proclamation.

      Pretty sure it's just Regina that he's snarky to and she's just downright mean to him sometimes. With Robin we have seen him being supportive ("Mixed emotions, I'll bet."), with Charming he's playful, grateful and kind (5x18), he hasn't spoken to Snow since s2 so not much there, Henry he's gentle in s3 (after Neal's death), barely speaks to in s4, then got him in on Operation LS,so teamwork there. In 5x16, he was the only one doing any actual parenting. There was no point in Regina and Emma showering him in compliments for something he didn't even write. Yes, the delivery could have been better (although I'd like to see you be tortured, find out your ex is being tormented and lose your bother and be completely chill) but people need to stop acting like he said "Henry you are the worst author ever."

      I see Emma and Hook as more 'Calling out the bullshit/Admitting the bullshit', Hook compliments her a lot, banter and some serious discussions. Emma has talked about her pain (lost childhood, parents) to Killian, so where's her 'womanpain'?

      Remember guys, don't talk about your feelings with your SO, that's manpain, and v.bad.

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    • I came upon a realization today. First, let me of course say that I generally like Hook's character growth and Emma's alright in my book, but there's something I had to think over.

      Many claim that Emma's become all about Hook and I would say that their statment is more opinion than fact, but then I guess even the proponents of Hook-Emma can probably see, at least from the writing side. Emma can easily be a strong female character that has vulnerabilities and a love interest. That love interest can play a major role in her life. All such is true, but you can sort divide the past 4 arcs and see some...odd things.

      4a (aka Frozen) was primarily about Emma's friendship with Regina (ignoring the two episode contrived parallel). It was iffy, not too bad, but nothing noteworthy delightful. Her and Hook's relationship flourished as it does, although payoff was lackluster.

      4b was about Emma's relationship with her parents. Emma's friendship with Regina and relationship with Hook were upheld. Most people tend to agree that 4b was not that good and the Snowing thing sort of made both parties Snowing and Emma slightly worse off.

      5a was about Emma. Her friendship with Regina was upheld, but Regina wasn't given too much to do. Emma's parents remain actively inactive (minus a few scenes). Emma's storyline promised to hit her friend, her parents, her child and her boyfriend, but at the end of the day: all else was okay and not really relevant, but her relationship with Hook was. It turned into a tad more about Hook at the end, then Emma.

      5b is about Emma and Hook. Her and Regina are on good terms. Emma has parents that are more active, but I won't say it's noteworthy. Emma and Hook are forefront and doing what they do.

      If you take a look through all of this, the only thing that flourishes in development is Emma and Hook, while the writing for Emma/Regina was iffy and has gotten better and for Emma/Parents or Son is pretty static, if at all present. It's easy to be mad or claim Emma's odd dependency of Hook when it's really the only thing standing above the shallow water.

      One of the main issues with Emma-Hook is (similar to early Emma and Regina in 4a) where Emma pretty much gets tossed under the bus for Hook-related angst. The time Emma realizes she's endangered her family and child, they claim it's all okay and Emma did no wrong. Emma can't grow if the writers/ other characters keep telling her that everything she does is the right thing.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      I came upon a realization today. First, let me of course say that I generally like Hook's character growth and Emma's alright in my book, but there's something I had to think over.

      Many claim that Emma's become all about Hook and I would say that their statment is more opinion than fact, but then I guess even the proponents of Hook-Emma can probably see, at least from the writing side. Emma can easily be a strong female character that has vulnerabilities and a love interest. That love interest can play a major role in her life. All such is true, but you can sort divide the past 4 arcs and see some...odd things.

      4a (aka Frozen) was primarily about Emma's friendship with Regina (ignoring the two episode contrived parallel). It was iffy, not too bad, but nothing noteworthy delightful. Her and Hook's relationship flourished as it does, although payoff was lackluster.

      4b was about Emma's relationship with her parents. Emma's friendship with Regina and relationship with Hook were upheld. Most people tend to agree that 4b was not that good and the Snowing thing sort of made both parties Snowing and Emma slightly worse off.

      5a was about Emma. Her friendship with Regina was upheld, but Regina wasn't given too much to do. Emma's parents remain actively inactive (minus a few scenes). Emma's storyline promised to hit her friend, her parents, her child and her boyfriend, but at the end of the day: all else was okay and not really relevant, but her relationship with Hook was. It turned into a tad more about Hook at the end, then Emma.

      5b is about Emma and Hook. Her and Regina are on good terms. Emma has parents that are more active, but I won't say it's noteworthy. Emma and Hook are forefront and doing what they do.

      If you take a look through all of this, the only thing that flourishes in development is Emma and Hook, while the writing for Emma/Regina was iffy and has gotten better and for Emma/Parents or Son is pretty static, if at all present. It's easy to be mad or claim Emma's odd dependency of Hook when it's really the only thing standing above the shallow water.

      One of the main issues with Emma-Hook is (similar to early Emma and Regina in 4a) where Emma pretty much gets tossed under the bus for Hook-related angst. The time Emma realizes she's endangered her family and child, they claim it's all okay and Emma did no wrong. Emma can't grow if the writers/ other characters keep telling her that everything she does is the right thing.

      I think 5a actually ended up more about Emma and what Hook is to her (as his role as a LI). It was 20% about his sacrifice by the end and 80% about how it affected her. Everything came back to Emma.

      I think episode 21 showed she isn't ependent on Hook. SHe mae one bad choice in Camelot and then even going to the UW wasn't "I can't love without him" it was more "This isn't fair to him."

      They said it was okay because they can take care of themselves and chose to be there. Them chosing to go to the UW was not their fault.

      'Tossed under the bus for Hook-related angst'? What? In 4a, the Hook-angst was completely erased (they just kissed and he never spoke of his week-long enslavement ever again and they never even taked about it) so Emma could go help Regina with Operation 'Get Me  A Happy Ending'. 

      Emma is also told, many times, that she's in the wrong-4a when the pole hit David, 5a when she erased her family's memories ('you should have come to us'), killing Cruella etc.

      I agree about CS being better written than SQ, SB (although I don't find them static) an Charming fam (although again, they are much better in s5 than in s4) but I don't think this is about Hook, it's mroe about Regina (but that's another thread.)

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    • The time Emma realizes she's endangered her family and child, they claim it's all okay and Emma did no wrong. Emma can't grow if the writers/ other characters keep telling her that everything she does is the right thing. I blame the writers.  They will not fully acknowledge Emma's mistakes and crimes.  She hasn't been put on the carpet for car theft.  We're supposed to view that damn car as a symbol of her relationsihp with Neal, instead of the fact that she and Neal had selfishly stolen a car that did not belong to them . . . and that she selfishly kept it.   The writers refused a follow up to Snow's attempt to murder Mulan back in early S2 and Emma's failure to stop the attempt.  There were NO emotional consequences following that.  Emma screwed up again by trying to change time and prevent Marian from being executed by Regina.  NO ONE castigated her for trying to change time.  Well, Hook made a half-hearted attempt and nothing more.  Regina castigated her for four episodes before she quickly forgave Emma.  The latter learned NOTHING from her mistake . . . even after she found out that Zelena had killed Marian and impersonated her. There were no real consequences from Emma's murder of Cruella de Vil.  Nothing.  She never realized that she could have saved Henry without committing murder.  And many fans pretended that she had done nothing wrong. Emma simply has not developed as a character.  Period. 

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Okay, the title is a bit dramatic, or perhaps not dramatic enough.

      Hook's relationship with Emma is one of the many polarizing things in fandom lore; however, I could care less about who you ship Emma with. This is about Henry.

      From the Swan Song thread:

      "I have my problems with Hook. I have my problems with the show's sense of morality, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out and shouldn't take long to figure out that he shouldn't be trying to kill off his love's family. Say what you want about their relationship, but look underneath all the pretty and you see the ugly. He sat there happily condemning the beloved's family of people that he befriended to death, but then saw his beloved choking to change. That may not bother you, but let's recap:

      Hook is "killing"  or allowing the killing of:

      - Emma's parents, whom she worked hard to love and to find.

      - Emma's friends

      - But more importantly, Emma's son

      (Wasn't too impressed with 5x11 either, I agree on this point)

      I may often hearken back to season 3 being the good old days, but nothing stood between Emma and her son. Not Regina, not her parents, and not love interest # 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Now, there's this pesky puppy love that pushing between Emma's love for her son and herself. Pretty much her romance with Hook is like the dagger to Rumple and Baelfire. Nothing ever stood between Rumple and Bae. Rumple crippled himself to see his son. Rumple became the dark One to save his son. But then the dagger came and risked the wellbeing of his son. Rumple's a bad, bad man. But replace Rumple with Emma, Bae with Henry and the dagger with Hook. Alter some of the situations and it's pretty much similar

      I like Hook a bit and it's understandable that Emma has a love interest. It's even passable with the extreme levels of forgiveness, but at this point her relationship with Hook is hurting and has hurted relationship with Henry."

      (Can't find this anywhere. True, we got less Emma-Henry scenes, but that's the creative team behind and not the characters. We get to see less of Henry-Emma doesn't necessarily imply there isn't much Henry-Emma. Maybe the writers felt they had explored enough of the mother-son dynamic in the previous seasons and decided to focus more on romance. Saying this mainly in context of s4.)

      Now many have complained that Regina dumping Henry for a while because of forest man was uncalled for, but this beat that by a mile. Emma has tarnished her son's first love, sucumbed to darkness, memory-wiped her family and friends for the love of this man she should have let die. (Emma took Violet's heart in order to free Merlin, to rid herself of the darkness. Can't see where Hook comes in as the "reason". Succumbing to darkness, I admit, was because of Hook, but it was more about Emma's feelings. She had been alone and lost people too many times, and she feared losing him as was made clear since s4. It was her weakness in that moment and not Hook per se that made her succumb to the darkness, and I'm not wrong in saying she would have done the same if it was Henry or either of her parents instead of Hook. Memory-wiping was an effort to easily damp the situation without starting a damn Dark One war. It was more to stop Hook than for Hook, and because she couldn't take Hook turning dark. It was the easy way out, shown to her by the darkness, not by Hook.) Emma of old (aka before season 4 and onwards) didn't let anything stand in her way and her son's happiness because of her love for her son. Even Emma's annoying "Go back to NYC" was reasonable because she just wanted Henry to be happy. But now, she's devolved into someone else. This new Emma threatens her son's livelihood because of reasons. She ends of failing, not because of her parents or son, but because of a man that wandered into her life. (Again, I don't see how it's because of Hook. She simply wants everything, not just her family but her love interest as well. She is not choosing Hook over family, but trying to find a middle way to have both.) But this isn't some feminist's verbage or something, it's just a clear observation.

      Emma never cred to pursue any relationship unless it ws good for her son and if it was best. During Neverland, she dismissed ThingOne and ThingTwo because her son was in danger. In season 3, she dismissed another start and what home was for her son's potential happiness. Even in seaosn 4, she's saved everyone. But now in 5a, she's seemingly not doing that anymore. She's trying to balance many types of love and where her love for her son usually won, it didn't. (See, till season 3 she had never had the sense of having romantic relations in addition to family. When she was with Neal, he was everything and she was totally emotionally dependent on him. With Graham, it barely started. Walsh we never really got to see much, but to me it appeared that he was the normal, stable person that could fit in and sort of complete their family, but even that blew away into a witch's pet flying monkey. She was apprehensive, and it had less to do with Henry and more to her own fears. Then came season 4 and she got a taste of having so many types of love, having a family, friends, and a lover. It was the time filled with quiet moments and fluff, despite the villains and fallouts. It should be fairly obvious to any human that after that she can't just return to being the Emma of season 3 or season 1 overnight just because of one incident, especially when she could see a way out and her judgement wasn't at its best.)

      Emma's a grown woman and she did make her own decisions, but so in recent events Hook and Emma's relationship has taken a turn for the worse.

      Revisiting this thread after a long time, wanted to have a fresh go at "defending my ship". My reactions in brackets and bold.

      I'd like to add a basic fact that nothing is perfect, no person and no relationship. You can't say it's bad because it doesn't meet perfection in your perception, and yes perception is a big factor here. In my perception, many people are just looking for excuses to justify their dislike for this ship, many of which I do not find valid. 

      Don't like it, it's your opinion, but taking any and everything and making it Hook's fault is taking it to a new level. I find many of the "justifications" and "reasons" by people here ridiculous and more of a desperate attempt to prove themselves right than anything. At the same time, maybe some will describe my explanations as the same. That's where perception comes in.

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    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      Don't like it, it's your opinion, but taking any and everything and making it Hook's fault is taking it to a new level. I find many of the "justifications" and "reasons" by people here ridiculous and more of a desperate attempt to prove themselves right than anything. At the same time, maybe some will describe my explanations as the same. That's where perception comes in.

      To me, it's not Hook's fault that this relation is bad for Emma. Neither Emma. You know in some movies, two normal people meet and fall in love but this meeting exposures a chaos in world.. This is just like that. It's not Hook's or Emma's fault. Ths relationship is bad because of union of Emma and Hook. They are true love yes I agree with that point. But there are more important things than being true love. They suffer and cause pain because of this relation. It's not healthy. I always think that Emma doesn't need a lover to have her happy ending. She has her son, her parents, her friends. But with Hook, she always suffers. So is Hook. Since the "I love you" scene in Operation Mongoose Part 2, (and 5A), I totally lost my love and respect for that relationship.

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    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      Revisiting this thread after a long time, wanted to have a fresh go at "defending my ship". My reactions in brackets and bold.

      I'd like to add a basic fact that nothing is perfect, no person and no relationship. You can't say it's bad because it doesn't meet perfection in your perception, and yes perception is a big factor here. In my perception, many people are just looking for excuses to justify their dislike for this ship, many of which I do not find valid. 

      Don't like it, it's your opinion, but taking any and everything and making it Hook's fault is taking it to a new level. I find many of the "justifications" and "reasons" by people here ridiculous and more of a desperate attempt to prove themselves right than anything. At the same time, maybe some will describe my explanations as the same. That's where perception comes in.

      In one of your bolded comments, you mentioned that it's not Hook's fault, but the writers. I completely agree. Killian as a character has actually grown on me but I still never saw him as a terrible character or anything. I more or less was taking a combination of arguments I saw and combined them with my opinion. I can mostly see what both sides see. That's one of the more beautiful things about our perceptions.

      I'll admit I said some purposefully controversial thing (XD What can I say?), but most was from the point of view for Emma since she was with us longer. Later on in this thread or somewhere I think I said that Emma was bad for Hook in some regards too. I'm not trying to say that there aren't good things, but the bad seems to get washed away which is just a problem the show has at times.

      I'm not some anti-CS fan or anything. It just tries a little too hard sometimes, fails at some other times, tries to "morally paint things grey" and we get a weird conglomerate at the end.

      Here are a few points that I think should probably be addressed:

      1. Real sacrifice. I say real because I saw beautiful, meaningful sacrifices and then I saw then quickly undone. That goes for any character or relationship on the show. Hook giving up his ship and all its history is huge, but then the writers just end up giving it back to him randomly for random reasons. I'm sure anyone can see how that hurts what was suppose to be a nice moment of sacrifice for Hook. Likewise with Emma, she lost Hook, had a beautiful good-bye, then got him back in a roundabout way. She might have learned that selfishness is bad, but she ended up with what she wanted anyway. I mean the loss of Robin seemed to be downplayed and sort of disrespected, with the happy kissing scene just immediately after and next to his coffin.

      2. Hook needs to be integrated into the family. David and Hook are slowly becoming friends. Henry gets bad advice from Hook in some slapdash way. Snow and Hook don't even talk. Emma's strongest relationship early on was with her mother, yet her love interest doesn't seem to interact with him whatsoever. Henry and Hook stuff should stop being 99% offscreen too.

      3. 5A proved to me that I was right about Hook's "redemption" being contingent on Emma's "love". Nothing in 5B showed me that he doesn't continually put Emma on a pedastal and looks down upon himself. 5B and Liam actually said that this was Hook's problem, but they never resolved it. For all I know, Emma upsets Hook again and he goes back to villainy.

      4. 5B's only down point to me was that Emma realized that she pretty much risked too much to go on her selfish trip to defy nature. Emma realized it and was right. Then, everyone else )aka the writers) were waxing poetic about how they wanted to go and how the plan will work and how it'll be okay. Only when Robin died did that sad attempt of whitewashing go away. This isn't Hook's fault, but only in this relationship have I seen Emma risk all those she loved to save her romantic partner. Cherry on the top was the writers having the other characters insist that Emma was right and all would be great.

      Another slight issue is the character development and where things will go I guess. Haha, I sort of got a bit strong-worded towards the end.

      TL;DR version: It's not that bad surface level but Hook's goodness seems contingent on Emma and I have never seen anyone, especially Emma, illogically risk the lives of her family and friends just to "save" the man she loves. By save, I mean selfishly attempt to defy nature.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CadoDoan wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      Don't like it, it's your opinion, but taking any and everything and making it Hook's fault is taking it to a new level. I find many of the "justifications" and "reasons" by people here ridiculous and more of a desperate attempt to prove themselves right than anything. At the same time, maybe some will describe my explanations as the same. That's where perception comes in.

      To me, it's not Hook's fault that this relation is bad for Emma. Neither Emma. You know in some movies, two normal people meet and fall in love but this meeting exposures a chaos in world.. This is just like that. It's not Hook's or Emma's fault. Ths relationship is bad because of union of Emma and Hook. They are true love yes I agree with that point. But there are more important things than being true love. They suffer and cause pain because of this relation. It's not healthy. I always think that Emma doesn't need a lover to have her happy ending. She has her son, her parents, her friends. But with Hook, she always suffers. So is Hook. Since the "I love you" scene in Operation Mongoose Part 2, (and 5A), I totally lost my love and respect for that relationship.

      Same here. CS I feel tries to mimic Snowing in being an epic love story. I feel that CS is actually unique in its own way, however there's a stark difference.

      Snow sacrificed herself to save David from the Evil Queen. David risked his life to save Snow from the torture of a curse. Emma risks the life of all her family and friends to "save" Hook by defying the laws of nature.

      Sure Snow had the help of her friends at times, but they weren't there when it came to the parlay at the stables of Regina's estate. David never shamed her or try to kill Snow's friends. Somethings the writers did with Dark Hook took it a bit too far and too fast.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CadoDoan wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      Don't like it, it's your opinion, but taking any and everything and making it Hook's fault is taking it to a new level. I find many of the "justifications" and "reasons" by people here ridiculous and more of a desperate attempt to prove themselves right than anything. At the same time, maybe some will describe my explanations as the same. That's where perception comes in.

      To me, it's not Hook's fault that this relation is bad for Emma. Neither Emma. You know in some movies, two normal people meet and fall in love but this meeting exposures a chaos in world.. This is just like that. It's not Hook's or Emma's fault. Ths relationship is bad because of union of Emma and Hook. They are true love yes I agree with that point. But there are more important things than being true love. They suffer and cause pain because of this relation. It's not healthy. I always think that Emma doesn't need a lover to have her happy ending. She has her son, her parents, her friends. But with Hook, she always suffers. So is Hook. Since the "I love you" scene in Operation Mongoose Part 2, (and 5A), I totally lost my love and respect for that relationship.

      I still don't get your point. It isn't like Emma and Killian shared TLK and apocalypse hit because of that. As far as the basic storyline goes, the only thing that's changed is that it's no longer just 'doey eyes and yearning looks', it's official dating, kissing, 'making eyes', declarations of love, etc. Yes, season 4 onwards the show has deteriorated somewhat, but you can't just say that it's because CS came together. Well, who knows? It may be because RumBelle got married, or Emma found home, or any such ridiculous reason. Maybe it's just because season 3 finale showcased a nearly happy ending, all existing issues were resolved, until the mistakes from the new 'past' caught up. It seems, forgive me if I'm taking you wrong, that you feel negatively about the ship which is why you're associating anything bad that happened with it.

      @bold this idea may be why you feel negatively about them... It's not about Emma or Hook or their relation, it's about how you feel about Emma being with someone... Kinda why I might feel negatively if SwanQueen happens, 'cause I always think two people can understand each other well and support each other and yet be just friends... 

      If I misunderstoodyou, sorry, and please correct me

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      Revisiting this thread after a long time, wanted to have a fresh go at "defending my ship". My reactions in brackets and bold.

      I'd like to add a basic fact that nothing is perfect, no person and no relationship. You can't say it's bad because it doesn't meet perfection in your perception, and yes perception is a big factor here. In my perception, many people are just looking for excuses to justify their dislike for this ship, many of which I do not find valid. 

      Don't like it, it's your opinion, but taking any and everything and making it Hook's fault is taking it to a new level. I find many of the "justifications" and "reasons" by people here ridiculous and more of a desperate attempt to prove themselves right than anything. At the same time, maybe some will describe my explanations as the same. That's where perception comes in.

      In one of your bolded comments, you mentioned that it's not Hook's fault, but the writers. I completely agree. Killian as a character has actually grown on me but I still never saw him as a terrible character or anything. I more or less was taking a combination of arguments I saw and combined them with my opinion. I can mostly see what both sides see. That's one of the more beautiful things about our perceptions.

      I'll admit I said some purposefully controversial thing (XD What can I say?), but most was from the point of view for Emma since she was with us longer. Later on in this thread or somewhere I think I said that Emma was bad for Hook in some regards too. I'm not trying to say that there aren't good things, but the bad seems to get washed away which is just a problem the show has at times.

      I'm not some anti-CS fan or anything. It just tries a little too hard sometimes, fails at some other times, tries to "morally paint things grey" and we get a weird conglomerate at the end.

      Here are a few points that I think should probably be addressed:

      1. Real sacrifice. I say real because I saw beautiful, meaningful sacrifices and then I saw then quickly undone. That goes for any character or relationship on the show. Hook giving up his ship and all its history is huge, but then the writers just end up giving it back to him randomly for random reasons. I'm sure anyone can see how that hurts what was suppose to be a nice moment of sacrifice for Hook. Likewise with Emma, she lost Hook, had a beautiful good-bye, then got him back in a roundabout way. She might have learned that selfishness is bad, but she ended up with what she wanted anyway. I mean the loss of Robin seemed to be downplayed and sort of disrespected, with the happy kissing scene just immediately after and next to his coffin. (I agree on both. But the thing is, the writers have mostly focused on intention rather than action, hence many crimes of the past are ignored in favour of a change of heart and what you sacrifice is returned to you. I honestly didn't see the point in bringing back the Jolly Roger for some once-in-a-season screen time. Bringing Hook back, however, they had to do it in order to retain the CS fans who likely would have stopped watching otherwise. How many times have they killed off main characters? A few, maybe, but none of them were likely to cause a major fall in viewership. Just like they can't get rid of Rumple, or Charmings, or Regina, they can't get rid of Hook. I honestly didn't see the point of killing Robin.)

      2. Hook needs to be integrated into the family. David and Hook are slowly becoming friends. Henry gets bad advice from Hook in some slapdash way. Snow and Hook don't even talk. Emma's strongest relationship early on was with her mother, yet her love interest doesn't seem to interact with him whatsoever. Henry and Hook stuff should stop being 99% offscreen too. (Well, that isn't unique to CS. The writers seem to believe that romance and family should not be mixed, 'cause while  most characters don't have a family, the ones who do have hardly any love interest-family interaction. I have hardly seen any Robin-Henry interaction, and Regina-Roland interaction was limited to season 3 as a way for Regina-Robin to bond. Even in the Underworld Henry Sr. wasn't given enough screen time to meet Robin, who got damn less of it himself. Maurice doesn't approve of Rumple, George and David went into war over him choosing Snow, and Hook you already mentioned. They didn't even show Granny's reaction to Ruby and Dorothy. So it's more of a show characteristic than a ship characteristic.)

      3. 5A proved to me that I was right about Hook's "redemption" being contingent on Emma's "love". Nothing in 5B showed me that he doesn't continually put Emma on a pedastal and looks down upon himself. 5B and Liam actually said that this was Hook's problem, but they never resolved it. For all I know, Emma upsets Hook again and he goes back to villainy. (I repeat, nobody's perfect. It doesn't take Emma a second to go into flight mode, even now. She's trying, and he's also trying. Just because they haven't reached that point doesn't mean they have to end it or something. And I don't think so, the worst Hook would do would be to shut Emma out and become suicidal. His villainous route was a Darkness reaction, though it was grossly overdone and unbelievable.)

      4. 5B's only down point to me was that Emma realized that she pretty much risked too much to go on her selfish trip to defy nature. Emma realized it and was right. Then, everyone else )aka the writers) were waxing poetic about how they wanted to go and how the plan will work and how it'll be okay. Only when Robin died did that sad attempt of whitewashing go away. This isn't Hook's fault, but only in this relationship have I seen Emma risk all those she loved to save her romantic partner. Cherry on the top was the writers having the other characters insist that Emma was right and all would be great. (Emma didn't drag anyone to Hell. She was about to go alone. They volunteered, and that means they aren't Emma's responsibility. Again, this isn't a CS point but a 'other characters' point. Emma continually gave others the option of leaving, they didn't accept it. Emma felt guilty about landing them there, Snow insisted that 'love is worth it', and same about Hook and David. It's not because of CS, it's because apparently everyone ships CS and wants them reunited no matter what.)

      Another slight issue is the character development and where things will go I guess. Haha, I sort of got a bit strong-worded towards the end.

      TL;DR version: It's not that bad surface level but Hook's goodness seems contingent on Emma and I have never seen anyone, especially Emma, illogically risk the lives of her family and friends just to "save" the man she loves. By save, I mean selfishly attempt to defy nature. (Remember the no of times they've brought Rumple back? They killed of Neal for it, they made Emma Dark One for it... Remember them all opening a portal to wherever-the-dark-one went realm? They took kids, dwarves, a baby, a pregnant woman, and who not to an unknown realm which could be potentially dangerous, all to save Emma. Remember Charming getting back defying death, first by Neverland water and then heart-sharing? Come to think of it, Emma wanted to do precisely that. The difference is that this time around the heroes volunteered to accompany Emma to Underworld. Emma wanted to go alone. They decided to tag along. Not Emma's fault.)

      Responses in bold.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      Don't like it, it's your opinion, but taking any and everything and making it Hook's fault is taking it to a new level. I find many of the "justifications" and "reasons" by people here ridiculous and more of a desperate attempt to prove themselves right than anything. At the same time, maybe some will describe my explanations as the same. That's where perception comes in.

      To me, it's not Hook's fault that this relation is bad for Emma. Neither Emma. You know in some movies, two normal people meet and fall in love but this meeting exposures a chaos in world.. This is just like that. It's not Hook's or Emma's fault. Ths relationship is bad because of union of Emma and Hook. They are true love yes I agree with that point. But there are more important things than being true love. They suffer and cause pain because of this relation. It's not healthy. I always think that Emma doesn't need a lover to have her happy ending. She has her son, her parents, her friends. But with Hook, she always suffers. So is Hook. Since the "I love you" scene in Operation Mongoose Part 2, (and 5A), I totally lost my love and respect for that relationship.
      I still don't get your point. It isn't like Emma and Killian shared TLK and apocalypse hit because of that. As far as the basic storyline goes, the only thing that's changed is that it's no longer just 'doey eyes and yearning looks', it's official dating, kissing, 'making eyes', declarations of love, etc. Yes, season 4 onwards the show has deteriorated somewhat, but you can't just say that it's because CS came together. Well, who knows? It may be because RumBelle got married, or Emma found home, or any such ridiculous reason. Maybe it's just because season 3 finale showcased a nearly happy ending, all existing issues were resolved, until the mistakes from the new 'past' caught up. It seems, forgive me if I'm taking you wrong, that you feel negatively about the ship which is why you're associating anything bad that happened with it.

      @bold this idea may be why you feel negatively about them... It's not about Emma or Hook or their relation, it's about how you feel about Emma being with someone... Kinda why I might feel negatively if SwanQueen happens, 'cause I always think two people can understand each other well and support each other and yet be just friends... 

      If I misunderstoodyou, sorry, and please correct me

      I actually liked Emma&Neal or Emma&August (no, they weren't just friends at the beginning). But they aren't perfect of course. The thing is it's very hard for Emma to find a soul mate who loves her, understands her and doesn't send her family to Hell because of his girlfriend's crazy actions. She is very a diffucult woman. As I said, I really liked that relation until 5A. Especially in S3, they were very exciting and fun to watch. But the moment I realized what Emma did to him and went against to his wishes, it would be impossible for me to love that. 

      You must have known the tag "Cs ruined Ouat" on Twitter. There were plenty of people who respects and loves the actors but don't like the messages CS send to the viewers. Hook didn't ruin the show or Emma. But this relationship, yes, it did. We were supposed to see the Dark Swan but instead, we saw a soap opera where they kiss 3 times repedately and break up and reunite 2 times repedately in 1-2 hours. I really hoped that Hook will survive from UW and tell Emma that they are not fit together and leave the show (I knew it wouldn't happen but I just hoped :D ) 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CadoDoan wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      Don't like it, it's your opinion, but taking any and everything and making it Hook's fault is taking it to a new level. I find many of the "justifications" and "reasons" by people here ridiculous and more of a desperate attempt to prove themselves right than anything. At the same time, maybe some will describe my explanations as the same. That's where perception comes in.

      To me, it's not Hook's fault that this relation is bad for Emma. Neither Emma. You know in some movies, two normal people meet and fall in love but this meeting exposures a chaos in world.. This is just like that. It's not Hook's or Emma's fault. Ths relationship is bad because of union of Emma and Hook. They are true love yes I agree with that point. But there are more important things than being true love. They suffer and cause pain because of this relation. It's not healthy. I always think that Emma doesn't need a lover to have her happy ending. She has her son, her parents, her friends. But with Hook, she always suffers. So is Hook. Since the "I love you" scene in Operation Mongoose Part 2, (and 5A), I totally lost my love and respect for that relationship.
      I still don't get your point. It isn't like Emma and Killian shared TLK and apocalypse hit because of that. As far as the basic storyline goes, the only thing that's changed is that it's no longer just 'doey eyes and yearning looks', it's official dating, kissing, 'making eyes', declarations of love, etc. Yes, season 4 onwards the show has deteriorated somewhat, but you can't just say that it's because CS came together. Well, who knows? It may be because RumBelle got married, or Emma found home, or any such ridiculous reason. Maybe it's just because season 3 finale showcased a nearly happy ending, all existing issues were resolved, until the mistakes from the new 'past' caught up. It seems, forgive me if I'm taking you wrong, that you feel negatively about the ship which is why you're associating anything bad that happened with it.

      @bold this idea may be why you feel negatively about them... It's not about Emma or Hook or their relation, it's about how you feel about Emma being with someone... Kinda why I might feel negatively if SwanQueen happens, 'cause I always think two people can understand each other well and support each other and yet be just friends... 

      If I misunderstoodyou, sorry, and please correct me

      I actually liked Emma&Neal or Emma&August (no, they weren't just friends at the beginning). But they aren't perfect of course. The thing is it's very hard for Emma to find a soul mate who loves her, understands her and doesn't send her family to Hell because of his girlfriend's crazy actions. She is very a diffucult woman. As I said, I really liked that relation until 5A. Especially in S3, they were very exciting and fun to watch. But the moment I realized what Emma did to him and went against to his wishes, it would be impossible for me to love that. 

      You must have known the tag "Cs ruined Ouat" on Twitter. There were plenty of people who respects and loves the actors but don't like the messages CS send to the viewers. Hook didn't ruin the show or Emma. But this relationship, yes, it did. We were supposed to see the Dark Swan but instead, we saw a soap opera where they kiss 3 times repedately and break up and reunite 2 times repedately in 1-2 hours. I really hoped that Hook will survive from UW and tell Emma that they are not fit together and leave the show (I knew it wouldn't happen but I just hoped :D ) 

      So you're saying that this one season ruined the ship for you? Then I guess 4B ruined SnowIng too?

      But if what you're saying you hold it true, it should be the other way round. Then OUaT ruined CS. 

      In 5A both their judgements were clouded, so I'm ready to give them a benefit of doubt, but the writers took the word 'twist' to a whole new level and the entire arc went downhill, and was way overdone.

      Giving a personal opinion, Emma's choice didn't ruin CS  for me. I understand her decision and likely would have done the same. The Dark Hook stint however was grossly over the top and I've more or less taken to erasing it or at least dismissing it from memory. I feel 5A could have been better, but no it didn't ruin CS for me.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • (MOD) Large font is taken as an act of aggression. Please maintain a the already preset font size as best as possible.

      And side-note: 4B character assassinated Snow and Charming.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • In response to my most recent post, it appears that we are practically in some form of agreement. The only other thing I think we are on opposite sides are that you say "other characters" and I say that the other characters are being twisted around for the CS related plot. Sure, Emma didn't force them, but the writers "forced them" to embark with Emma on her journey. The writers have the characters saying how awesome Emma's plan is, or really just not thinking about much else. Tell me why Snow and David would leave their child (who they were very attached to) to potentially die. Why would Robin who has no stake in that leave his children behind just to do nothing? We can say it's a writer problem, but the problem was the poorly executed plot, which just so happens to be Emma "saving" Hook.

      But I do have to respond to this:

      "(Remember the no of times they've brought Rumple back? They killed of Neal for it, they made Emma Dark One for it... Remember them all opening a portal to wherever-the-dark-one went realm? They took kids, dwarves, a baby, a pregnant woman, and who not to an unknown realm which could be potentially dangerous, all to save Emma. Remember Charming getting back defying death, first by Neverland water and then heart-sharing? Come to think of it, Emma wanted to do precisely that. The difference is that this time around the heroes volunteered to accompany Emma to Underworld. Emma wanted to go alone. They decided to tag along. Not Emma's fault."

      Well, this thread is about Emma and Hook; other characters get their own separate thread.

      Rumple was "brought" back once. So......don't see your point. And it was bad then, bad now. You somehow twisted logic there. The group took kids, friends, and their mortal enemy to their home realm, not an unknown realm. They were going to find Emma, destroy the Darkness, and follow all natural laws. Emma spearheaded the plunge into the Underworld with a half-baked idea and all her efforts with the help of her friends resulted in failure and an unnecessary death.

      David only return from "death" because of a strong act of true love. I can deal with that. I didn't say that Hook couldn't come back to life. I expected him to do so, just in a more meanigful way. I didn't expect him to be saved via Zeus ex Machina and then have a awkward reunion at Robin's grave right after the funeral.

      If anything, Hook had the chance at "heaven" and now what? Is Emma going to go traverse the Underworld to keep bringing him back? Hook's (as well as everyone else's) stakes have been sort of tarnished and...that's another issue for another thread XD.



       
        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      Don't like it, it's your opinion, but taking any and everything and making it Hook's fault is taking it to a new level. I find many of the "justifications" and "reasons" by people here ridiculous and more of a desperate attempt to prove themselves right than anything. At the same time, maybe some will describe my explanations as the same. That's where perception comes in.

      To me, it's not Hook's fault that this relation is bad for Emma. Neither Emma. You know in some movies, two normal people meet and fall in love but this meeting exposures a chaos in world.. This is just like that. It's not Hook's or Emma's fault. Ths relationship is bad because of union of Emma and Hook. They are true love yes I agree with that point. But there are more important things than being true love. They suffer and cause pain because of this relation. It's not healthy. I always think that Emma doesn't need a lover to have her happy ending. She has her son, her parents, her friends. But with Hook, she always suffers. So is Hook. Since the "I love you" scene in Operation Mongoose Part 2, (and 5A), I totally lost my love and respect for that relationship.
      I still don't get your point. It isn't like Emma and Killian shared TLK and apocalypse hit because of that. As far as the basic storyline goes, the only thing that's changed is that it's no longer just 'doey eyes and yearning looks', it's official dating, kissing, 'making eyes', declarations of love, etc. Yes, season 4 onwards the show has deteriorated somewhat, but you can't just say that it's because CS came together. Well, who knows? It may be because RumBelle got married, or Emma found home, or any such ridiculous reason. Maybe it's just because season 3 finale showcased a nearly happy ending, all existing issues were resolved, until the mistakes from the new 'past' caught up. It seems, forgive me if I'm taking you wrong, that you feel negatively about the ship which is why you're associating anything bad that happened with it.

      @bold this idea may be why you feel negatively about them... It's not about Emma or Hook or their relation, it's about how you feel about Emma being with someone... Kinda why I might feel negatively if SwanQueen happens, 'cause I always think two people can understand each other well and support each other and yet be just friends... 

      If I misunderstoodyou, sorry, and please correct me

      I actually liked Emma&Neal or Emma&August (no, they weren't just friends at the beginning). But they aren't perfect of course. The thing is it's very hard for Emma to find a soul mate who loves her, understands her and doesn't send her family to Hell because of his girlfriend's crazy actions. She is very a diffucult woman. As I said, I really liked that relation until 5A. Especially in S3, they were very exciting and fun to watch. But the moment I realized what Emma did to him and went against to his wishes, it would be impossible for me to love that. 

      You must have known the tag "Cs ruined Ouat" on Twitter. There were plenty of people who respects and loves the actors but don't like the messages CS send to the viewers. Hook didn't ruin the show or Emma. But this relationship, yes, it did. We were supposed to see the Dark Swan but instead, we saw a soap opera where they kiss 3 times repedately and break up and reunite 2 times repedately in 1-2 hours. I really hoped that Hook will survive from UW and tell Emma that they are not fit together and leave the show (I knew it wouldn't happen but I just hoped :D ) 

      So you're saying that this one season ruined the ship for you? Then I guess 4B ruined SnowIng too?

      But if what you're saying you hold it true, it should be the other way round. Then OUaT ruined CS. 

      In 5A both their judgements were clouded, so I'm ready to give them a benefit of doubt, but the writers took the word 'twist' to a whole new level and the entire arc went downhill, and was way overdone.

      Giving a personal opinion, Emma's choice didn't ruin CS  for me. I understand her decision and likely would have done the same. The Dark Hook stint however was grossly over the top and I've more or less taken to erasing it or at least dismissing it from memory. I feel 5A could have been better, but no it didn't ruin CS for me.

      S5 didn't ruin it by itself. It has already started to since the beginning of S4. I liked them yes but I never loved it blindly. And I don't think there is something I shouldn't like between Snow and David in 4B. It was more like between Snowing and Emma. 

      A show really can ruin a relationship which it takes place in that show? We can't say that the writers are the ones who should be blamed about everything. It's a fictional show. Emma tried to "save" Hook. We can't say that it's the writers' fault. It's Emma's. I don't like to blame the writers except the ways of setting. 

      I undertand Emma too in that moment but that doesn't mean I agree with her or say that I would have done the same thing. That action was wrong in any circumstances and I don't want to say myself "But they are twu luvv. They can make mistake of course". It was beyond a mistake, more like a betrayal.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      (MOD) Large font is taken as an act of aggression. Please maintain a the already preset font size as best as possible.

      And side-note: 4B character assassinated Snow and Charming.

      It was unintentional. It appeared in a large font after Copy-Paste.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • The thing is, I feel that the overall quality of show degraded from season 4. It was disappointing.

      But exclusively blaming Captain Swan for it is hardly fair. I found every ship annoying in season 4. Which is why I put blame on the writers instead of the characters. 

      I find it unfair to go and shout CS ruined OUaT just because you don't like the ship. Say trying to carry on love stories which had reached a dead end ruined OUaT, I'll agree. Say putting too much focus on a few characters ruined OUaT, I'll agree. But blaming a ship for regression in character personality, when it had been something common in majority of characters related or unrelated to the ship, is something I won't agree with. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • As for everyone literally going to hell is concerned, the writers have themselves claimed that killing off Hook was just an 'excuse' to do an Underworld track. If you want a 'forced them' issue, Hook was 'forced' to die so that they could go to Underworld to bring him back. Landing them all in the Underworld was the motive, killing Hook was just the means to do that.

      And if you again say that we're not to blame the writers but do the analysis in terms of characters, then I'll say you're being hypocritical. When it's the other characters, they're 'forced' by the writers. When it's Emma/Killian/their relationship, it's their decision solely. This is why I find some arguments more of desperate efforts.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      The thing is, I feel that the overall quality of show degraded from season 4. It was disappointing.

      But exclusively blaming Captain Swan for it is hardly fair. I found every ship annoying in season 4. Which is why I put blame on the writers instead of the characters. 

      I find it unfair to go and shout CS ruined OUaT just because you don't like the ship. Say trying to carry on love stories which had reached a dead end ruined OUaT, I'll agree. Say putting too much focus on a few characters ruined OUaT, I'll agree. But blaming a ship for regression in character personality, when it had been something common in majority of characters related or unrelated to the ship, is something I won't agree with. 

      Well, speaking for myself, I would completely agree. No one relationship or one item "ruined" the show. The only thing that ruins this show is bad writing and poor decisions.

      Blaming a "ship" or the writing of that "ship" for the degradation of a character is totally founded. Currently, Rumple and Belle's relationship makes Belle look like some weird enabler in denial. It also makes the "heroes" look uncaring and dismissive of Belle because they weren't planning on telling Belle about her husband's treachery and they don't care that she (not Rumple!) is stuck in a terrible, terrible curse.

      Robin Hood having little of no character and the relationship being between Regina and a cardboard cut out called Robin Hood is the best way to describe this situation. No clue what they have in common because Robin really has no case to make besides "bold and audacious' and a ton of ignorance.

      So, yes, I can blame a "ship" and the writing of that "ship" that led to such wonderful, wacky things.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      As for everyone literally going to hell is concerned, the writers have themselves claimed that killing off Hook was just an 'excuse' to do an Underworld track. If you want a 'forced them' issue, Hook was 'forced' to die so that they could go to Underworld to bring him back. Landing them all in the Underworld was the motive, killing Hook was just the means to do that.

      And if you again say that we're not to blame the writers but do the analysis in terms of characters, then I'll say you're being hypocritical. When it's the other characters, they're 'forced' by the writers. When it's Emma/Killian/their relationship, it's their decision solely. This is why I find some arguments more of desperate efforts.

      I'd say that there's an "in-show" answer and an "out-of-show" answer. If Snow and David do something stupid, then we can that action they partook as stupid. It's not often we go "Oh, that was a stupid action the writers had Snow and David partaking in." But the answer is both, to a degree.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I think that both Hook and Emma have flaws and that their relationship isn't perfect but that's how it is in real life, both did bad things in season 5  but they fought through it and forgave eachother, that's what you do if you trully love someone, you work though no matter what. If you don't like the show stop watching and stop blaiming it on stupid things.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Violetdarkness wrote: I think that both Hook and Emma have flaws and that their relationship isn't perfect but that's how it is in real life, both did bad things in season 5  but they fought through it and forgave eachother, that's what you do if you trully love someone, you work though no matter what. If you don't like the show stop watching and stop blaiming it on stupid things.

      The whole point of flaws is for the characters to acknowledge them and grow, but every flaw in Hook and Emma or their relationship is swept under the rug and they act as if nothing happened.

      Both did horrible things in season 5, but is forgiving eachother enough? What about Merlin, which never got mentioned again cause they can't afford to remind us that Hook cold blooded murdered someone. Doesn't he matter? Doesn't his murder matter? They didn't even show any kind of remorse about him.

      You don't work through everything no matter what. When your spouse hurts you, threaten you or your family, you leave them. Love should not be a blindness.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:

      Violetdarkness wrote: I think that both Hook and Emma have flaws and that their relationship isn't perfect but that's how it is in real life, both did bad things in season 5  but they fought through it and forgave eachother, that's what you do if you trully love someone, you work though no matter what. If you don't like the show stop watching and stop blaiming it on stupid things.

      The whole point of flaws is for the characters to acknowledge them and grow, but every flaw in Hook and Emma or their relationship is swept under the rug and they act as if nothing happened.

      Both did horrible things in season 5, but is forgiving eachother enough? What about Merlin, which never got mentioned again cause they can't afford to remind us that Hook cold blooded murdered someone. Doesn't he matter? Doesn't his murder matter? They didn't even show any kind of remorse about him.

      You don't work through everything no matter what. When your spouse hurts you, threaten you or your family, you leave them. Love should not be a blindness.

      Well, slight correction.

      1. Emma's flaws are acknowledge and then counteracted by everyone telling her how nothing is wrong. For example, Emma regretted bringing to the UW with a half-baked plan, everyone said "You were right to let us come with you! You have a great plan!", then the end result is Emma regretting she did that because Robin died. Then, the show drifted on......and everyone forgot Robin.

      Hook's flaws are acknowledge and then ignored. Like they had a whole "Hook has a terrible problem putting people on pedastals and ends up looking down on himself. Hook has a drinking problem and a bad temper" then everyone lets that continue.

      However, they aren't the sole ones, but alas this topic isn't about other characters.

      2. Minor characters aren't important. They seemed to be ignoring anything from 5a for some reason. Weird. It's like they remeber 4B, but not 5A.

      The show as we all know chooses "forgiveness and redemption" over justice and actual remorse.

      3. This is true. Many try to go to a fictional relationship (not this particular one) as encouraging and that if they can make it through, so can I. However, everything's different. Hook verbally abused Emma in 5A for no reason. Proof? Rumple never verbally abused Belle and he was longer as Dark One. Sticking it through is good and all, but there's a difference between an argument and abuse.

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    • Hook is not responsible for Emma's mistakes and crimes.  He is responsible for his own mistakes and crimes.  The problem is that fans not only blame him for his mistakes, but also for many of Emma's.  A lot of fans do this.

      I do not demand that Emma be perfect.  She is not perfect.  No character on that show is perfect.  And I have no problem with that.  I have a problem when a character's mistake, crime or flaw is dismissed either by the writers or the fans.  Even when Emma's flaws are acknowledged, they're quickly shoved under the rug and barely remembered again.  If ever.  I cannot say the same about other characters . . . especially Rumpelstiltskin, Regina and Hook.  Why do the writers or the fans tend to give Emma a wide birth in compare to other characters?  Is it because she is the main character?  The "savior"?  This is a writing flaw that is also apparent on a good number of other shows - "CHARMED" being the main offender.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CTrent29 wrote:
      Hook is not responsible for Emma's mistakes and crimes.  He is responsible for his own mistakes and crimes.  The problem is that fans not only blame him for his mistakes, but also for many of Emma's.  A lot of fans do this.

      I do not demand that Emma be perfect.  She is not perfect.  No character on that show is perfect.  And I have no problem with that.  I have a problem when a character's mistake, crime or flaw is dismissed either by the writers or the fans.  Even when Emma's flaws are acknowledged, they're quickly shoved under the rug and barely remembered again.  If ever.  I cannot say the same about other characters . . . especially Rumpelstiltskin, Regina and Hook.  Why do the writers or the fans tend to give Emma a wide birth in compare to other characters?  Is it because she is the main character?  The "savior"?  This is a writing flaw that is also apparent on a good number of other shows - "CHARMED" being the main offender.

      I said something similar. Emma's problems are usually unnoticed b most simply because they point it out/ Emma sees how flawed her ideas are, then other characters around her get bent  out of shape to tell he that she's right, when she's most definitely wrong.

      What fans blame Hook of in regards to Emma are things that come out of the relationship and the character development. Sometimes it's Emma, but other times it's Hook.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • What fans blame Hook of in regards to Emma are things that come out of the relationship and the character development. Sometimes it's Emma, but other times it's Hook.

      Like what?

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    • CTrent29 wrote:
      What fans blame Hook of in regards to Emma are things that come out of the relationship and the character development. Sometimes it's Emma, but other times it's Hook.

      Like what?

      Like trying ro kill everyone whom Emma loves and cares about. She maming him the dark one is not an excuse. "He acted violently because she made him angry" is Battered Wife syndrome.

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    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      I don't see ur point, honestly...

      Point A, Emma never hurt Henry for Hook (plz point out if I've missed something). When she broke his heart, it was to free Merlin and rid herself of darkness. It was one of the "darkness"-spurred action in which she looked at the "bigger picture" instead of how much she'll hurt her son. Her taking everyone's memories was not just to save Hook, but to save everyone from what Hook might potentially do. And if I may remind you, Emma asked Henry if he was okay with her being with Hook and it was Henry who had pushed her towards him (quite literally). It has been shown numerous times that Henry likes Killian and he's more than okay with them being together. Lack of Henry-Emma scenes in season 4 actually can be blamed more on Henry bcoz he was busy with Regina and Operation Mongoose.

      Point B, I understand that the way Hook behaved in 5a was also not acceptable or likable. But guess what, he was evil scheming Dark Hook for like a total of 2 episodes! It's strange how quick everyone forgets the good. Back in Camelot, Hook supported her throughout, tried to drive away the darkness, make her happy, give her all the support she needed THROUGHOUT! When everyone from her parents to Regina were willing to use the dagger on her, he was the one who believed in her and let her make the decision. And yet, all you see is that in the last two episodes he acted like a complete jerk (that he did, I admit).

      Point C, again Hook's behaviour, what he did was as the dark one. You want a demo of what happens when a person becomes a Dark One? See Rumple. The man who wanted nothing more than a happy family becomes the power-hungry git who throws away love repeatedly after he becomes the Dark One. Even Emma here, forgets her son's feelings and manipulates the situation to make her work easy. So when Hook, who already had a tendency for darkness, becomes Dark One quite against his wishes, especially when his nemesis was a Dark One, he is going to be more than a little pissed about it! That, plus Emma's lack of faith in him, plus the overexaggeration by Darkness. If we can forgive Rumple for centuries of crime, I think we can forgive Hook for his unsuccessful-at-his-own-hands scheme to kill everyone. I do hate him for what he did though, and I wish it was Emma who had died so that he would be left to sink in his pool of remorse.

      Point D, it isn't as if Emma has never hurt Hook or brought any change in his life. He fell for her, and that changed everything (for the better, yes). Then he ran after her and she pushed him away again and again, hurting him numerous times. Didn't anyone else's life get affected bcoz they fell in love? As far as I can see, there were considerable changes in the lives of both people in each couple after falling in love... Why is that not acceptable when Emma falls in love?

      Here's something I'd like to point out: when Hook didn't know he was the Dark One, he didn't act different. He acted Hook. But the second she told him, he was just like "Oh, I'm the Dark One? Better kill your whole family". Like, in a matter of seconds, he just said screw it I'm evil again. These two are not TL.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • MoonlitShadowsoftheHumanSoul wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      I don't see ur point, honestly...

      Point A, Emma never hurt Henry for Hook (plz point out if I've missed something). When she broke his heart, it was to free Merlin and rid herself of darkness. It was one of the "darkness"-spurred action in which she looked at the "bigger picture" instead of how much she'll hurt her son. Her taking everyone's memories was not just to save Hook, but to save everyone from what Hook might potentially do. And if I may remind you, Emma asked Henry if he was okay with her being with Hook and it was Henry who had pushed her towards him (quite literally). It has been shown numerous times that Henry likes Killian and he's more than okay with them being together. Lack of Henry-Emma scenes in season 4 actually can be blamed more on Henry bcoz he was busy with Regina and Operation Mongoose.

      Point B, I understand that the way Hook behaved in 5a was also not acceptable or likable. But guess what, he was evil scheming Dark Hook for like a total of 2 episodes! It's strange how quick everyone forgets the good. Back in Camelot, Hook supported her throughout, tried to drive away the darkness, make her happy, give her all the support she needed THROUGHOUT! When everyone from her parents to Regina were willing to use the dagger on her, he was the one who believed in her and let her make the decision. And yet, all you see is that in the last two episodes he acted like a complete jerk (that he did, I admit).

      Point C, again Hook's behaviour, what he did was as the dark one. You want a demo of what happens when a person becomes a Dark One? See Rumple. The man who wanted nothing more than a happy family becomes the power-hungry git who throws away love repeatedly after he becomes the Dark One. Even Emma here, forgets her son's feelings and manipulates the situation to make her work easy. So when Hook, who already had a tendency for darkness, becomes Dark One quite against his wishes, especially when his nemesis was a Dark One, he is going to be more than a little pissed about it! That, plus Emma's lack of faith in him, plus the overexaggeration by Darkness. If we can forgive Rumple for centuries of crime, I think we can forgive Hook for his unsuccessful-at-his-own-hands scheme to kill everyone. I do hate him for what he did though, and I wish it was Emma who had died so that he would be left to sink in his pool of remorse.

      Point D, it isn't as if Emma has never hurt Hook or brought any change in his life. He fell for her, and that changed everything (for the better, yes). Then he ran after her and she pushed him away again and again, hurting him numerous times. Didn't anyone else's life get affected bcoz they fell in love? As far as I can see, there were considerable changes in the lives of both people in each couple after falling in love... Why is that not acceptable when Emma falls in love?

      Here's something I'd like to point out: when Hook didn't know he was the Dark One, he didn't act different. He acted Hook. But the second she told him, he was just like "Oh, I'm the Dark One? Better kill your whole family". Like, in a matter of seconds, he just said screw it I'm evil again. These two are not TL.

      I can only give a theory on that. I think Darkness is a psychological issue. When you know you're the dark one, in a way you empower the Darkness by acknowledging it. You expect it to make its presence known, so it does. Its your own darkest thoughts, which normally might go directly into the mental trashbin, that manifest in form of the "guide" to being dark one. When you don't know you're the dark one, you don't expect the Darkness, and hence it doesn't visibly affect you.

      Well, while you try to prove somehow that they're not true love, the show states they are. Its a useless argument.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Since the thread has been reawoken.....

      In 6x03, Emma goes to Archie about her tremors and impending future. She wonders if she should tell her family, but afterwards they only talk in regards to Hook. So, she questions telling her family, but doesn't want to destroys Hook's perspective towards the future aka happy ending.

      The best case scenario: Emma worries about her family and Hook. She found her family, son, and lover and she doesn't want to let it go. For instance, she just brought Hook through a lot and it would be terrible to crush his spirits so soon. Henry has Regina. Snow and David have Neal, but who does Hook have? (Worse case scenario doesn't require much thought.)

      Even with this best case scenario, Emma goes to Hook and Henry trying to spend time bonding and Emma legitimately asks, "What are you doing here, Henry?" I know that in the best case scenario it's more of a "No friends you want to hang out with? No School?" while she's working with her volunteer officer. However, it seems weird that Henry has to actively pursue "Mother-son bonding" and it to be somewhat a shock.

      More even than the previous season, but with a slight deviation from the best case scenario, one can look at this and see Emma still being a more focused on Hook than everyone else in her life. Even so, the more confident Emma was more like season 1 Emma in being a strong outer shell, independent character with the delightful vulerability inside.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Since the thread has been reawoken.....

      In 6x03, Emma goes to Archie about her tremors and impending future. She wonders if she should tell her family, but afterwards they only talk in regards to Hook. So, she questions telling her family, but doesn't want to destroys Hook's perspective towards the future aka happy ending.

      The best case scenario: Emma worries about her family and Hook. She found her family, son, and lover and she doesn't want to let it go. For instance, she just brought Hook through a lot and it would be terrible to crush his spirits so soon. Henry has Regina. Snow and David have Neal, but who does Hook have? (Worse case scenario doesn't require much thought.)

      Even with this best case scenario, Emma goes to Hook and Henry trying to spend time bonding and Emma legitimately asks, "What are you doing here, Henry?" I know that in the best case scenario it's more of a "No friends you want to hang out with? No School?" while she's working with her volunteer officer. However, it seems weird that Henry has to actively pursue "Mother-son bonding" and it to be somewhat a shock.

      More even than the previous season, but with a slight deviation from the best case scenario, one can look at this and see Emma still being a more focused on Hook than everyone else in her life. Even so, the more confident Emma was more like season 1 Emma in being a strong outer shell, independent character with the delightful vulerability inside.

      The thing that bothers me is that the only thing Emma cares about with the knowledge of her dying is that Hook won't get his Happy Endings, not that she won't be alive anymore, not that her son will lose his mother or that her parents will lose their daughter again, but Hook. Everything about their relationship is about them and what he wants and never about her, even when the "sacrifice" happened and the Underworld field trip.

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    • Farerb wrote:

      The thing that bothers me is that the only thing Emma cares about with the knowledge of her dying is that Hook won't get his Happy Endings, not that she won't be alive anymore, not that her son will lose his mother or that her parents will lose their daughter again, but Hook. Everything about their relationship is about them and what he wants and never about her, even when the "sacrifice" happened and the Underworld field trip.

      I would agree that with the consistency that they have had before it is what I would be inclined to think.

      BCS: It's more of that's the only thing that Emma cared to mention, over just caring. She used Hook as an example.

      Nothing is wrong with using Hook as an example, but the problem is that Hook is always the example which, to some folk, makes Emma seemed single-mindedly focused on Hook when I'm sure the writers are not intentionally doing so.

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    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      MoonlitShadowsoftheHumanSoul wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      I don't see ur point, honestly...

      Point A, Emma never hurt Henry for Hook (plz point out if I've missed something). When she broke his heart, it was to free Merlin and rid herself of darkness. It was one of the "darkness"-spurred action in which she looked at the "bigger picture" instead of how much she'll hurt her son. Her taking everyone's memories was not just to save Hook, but to save everyone from what Hook might potentially do. And if I may remind you, Emma asked Henry if he was okay with her being with Hook and it was Henry who had pushed her towards him (quite literally). It has been shown numerous times that Henry likes Killian and he's more than okay with them being together. Lack of Henry-Emma scenes in season 4 actually can be blamed more on Henry bcoz he was busy with Regina and Operation Mongoose.

      Point B, I understand that the way Hook behaved in 5a was also not acceptable or likable. But guess what, he was evil scheming Dark Hook for like a total of 2 episodes! It's strange how quick everyone forgets the good. Back in Camelot, Hook supported her throughout, tried to drive away the darkness, make her happy, give her all the support she needed THROUGHOUT! When everyone from her parents to Regina were willing to use the dagger on her, he was the one who believed in her and let her make the decision. And yet, all you see is that in the last two episodes he acted like a complete jerk (that he did, I admit).

      Point C, again Hook's behaviour, what he did was as the dark one. You want a demo of what happens when a person becomes a Dark One? See Rumple. The man who wanted nothing more than a happy family becomes the power-hungry git who throws away love repeatedly after he becomes the Dark One. Even Emma here, forgets her son's feelings and manipulates the situation to make her work easy. So when Hook, who already had a tendency for darkness, becomes Dark One quite against his wishes, especially when his nemesis was a Dark One, he is going to be more than a little pissed about it! That, plus Emma's lack of faith in him, plus the overexaggeration by Darkness. If we can forgive Rumple for centuries of crime, I think we can forgive Hook for his unsuccessful-at-his-own-hands scheme to kill everyone. I do hate him for what he did though, and I wish it was Emma who had died so that he would be left to sink in his pool of remorse.

      Point D, it isn't as if Emma has never hurt Hook or brought any change in his life. He fell for her, and that changed everything (for the better, yes). Then he ran after her and she pushed him away again and again, hurting him numerous times. Didn't anyone else's life get affected bcoz they fell in love? As far as I can see, there were considerable changes in the lives of both people in each couple after falling in love... Why is that not acceptable when Emma falls in love?

      Here's something I'd like to point out: when Hook didn't know he was the Dark One, he didn't act different. He acted Hook. But the second she told him, he was just like "Oh, I'm the Dark One? Better kill your whole family". Like, in a matter of seconds, he just said screw it I'm evil again. These two are not TL.
      I can only give a theory on that. I think Darkness is a psychological issue. When you know you're the dark one, in a way you empower the Darkness by acknowledging it. You expect it to make its presence known, so it does. Its your own darkest thoughts, which normally might go directly into the mental trashbin, that manifest in form of the "guide" to being dark one. When you don't know you're the dark one, you don't expect the Darkness, and hence it doesn't visibly affect you.

      Well, while you try to prove somehow that they're not true love, the show states they are. Its a useless argument.

      Interesting. You might have something there. There's also the hilarious time that Rumple tricked Hook into believing his hand was making him evil, causing him to go on a bit of a self-indulgent evil spree, if I remember correctly, lol.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • TrumpetofTheSwan wrote:

      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      MoonlitShadowsoftheHumanSoul wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      I don't see ur point, honestly...

      Point A, Emma never hurt Henry for Hook (plz point out if I've missed something). When she broke his heart, it was to free Merlin and rid herself of darkness. It was one of the "darkness"-spurred action in which she looked at the "bigger picture" instead of how much she'll hurt her son. Her taking everyone's memories was not just to save Hook, but to save everyone from what Hook might potentially do. And if I may remind you, Emma asked Henry if he was okay with her being with Hook and it was Henry who had pushed her towards him (quite literally). It has been shown numerous times that Henry likes Killian and he's more than okay with them being together. Lack of Henry-Emma scenes in season 4 actually can be blamed more on Henry bcoz he was busy with Regina and Operation Mongoose.

      Point B, I understand that the way Hook behaved in 5a was also not acceptable or likable. But guess what, he was evil scheming Dark Hook for like a total of 2 episodes! It's strange how quick everyone forgets the good. Back in Camelot, Hook supported her throughout, tried to drive away the darkness, make her happy, give her all the support she needed THROUGHOUT! When everyone from her parents to Regina were willing to use the dagger on her, he was the one who believed in her and let her make the decision. And yet, all you see is that in the last two episodes he acted like a complete jerk (that he did, I admit).

      Point C, again Hook's behaviour, what he did was as the dark one. You want a demo of what happens when a person becomes a Dark One? See Rumple. The man who wanted nothing more than a happy family becomes the power-hungry git who throws away love repeatedly after he becomes the Dark One. Even Emma here, forgets her son's feelings and manipulates the situation to make her work easy. So when Hook, who already had a tendency for darkness, becomes Dark One quite against his wishes, especially when his nemesis was a Dark One, he is going to be more than a little pissed about it! That, plus Emma's lack of faith in him, plus the overexaggeration by Darkness. If we can forgive Rumple for centuries of crime, I think we can forgive Hook for his unsuccessful-at-his-own-hands scheme to kill everyone. I do hate him for what he did though, and I wish it was Emma who had died so that he would be left to sink in his pool of remorse.

      Point D, it isn't as if Emma has never hurt Hook or brought any change in his life. He fell for her, and that changed everything (for the better, yes). Then he ran after her and she pushed him away again and again, hurting him numerous times. Didn't anyone else's life get affected bcoz they fell in love? As far as I can see, there were considerable changes in the lives of both people in each couple after falling in love... Why is that not acceptable when Emma falls in love?

      Here's something I'd like to point out: when Hook didn't know he was the Dark One, he didn't act different. He acted Hook. But the second she told him, he was just like "Oh, I'm the Dark One? Better kill your whole family". Like, in a matter of seconds, he just said screw it I'm evil again. These two are not TL.
      I can only give a theory on that. I think Darkness is a psychological issue. When you know you're the dark one, in a way you empower the Darkness by acknowledging it. You expect it to make its presence known, so it does. Its your own darkest thoughts, which normally might go directly into the mental trashbin, that manifest in form of the "guide" to being dark one. When you don't know you're the dark one, you don't expect the Darkness, and hence it doesn't visibly affect you.

      Well, while you try to prove somehow that they're not true love, the show states they are. Its a useless argument.

      Interesting. You might have something there. There's also the hilarious time that Rumple tricked Hook into believing his hand was making him evil, causing him to go on a bit of a self-indulgent evil spree, if I remember correctly, lol.

      That's because deep down he's weak and he's still a piece of trash, give him an out and he'll go back to the way he was.

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    • I disagree, though these facebook captain swan founds sound completly out of order to me, I wouldn't say I particularly like their relationship, but I don't dislike it either.

      I think saying Hook is bad for Emma is a bit too much... All the bad stuff you mentioned he did when he was a Dark One, and it was kinda Emma's fault he was.

      Though I don't really like Hook as a person I don't think he's bad to Emma. 

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    • The problem with the whle Dark One argument is that it doesn't absolve anyone of anything.

      Rumple is the DO: he murders, lies, etc and he's a terrible, terrible man., during and after.

      Emma was the DO: she lied, lied, lied, and was a selfish person during and after.

      Hook was the DO: he said mean things, sentenced people to death, etc, but he was weak and forced into so it wasn't really his fault.

      The problem lies in this faulty logic. Even Hook admits he was terrible and weak, so excusing him wholly or partially shows some inherent bias (which we all have).

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      The problem with the whle Dark One argument is that it doesn't absolve anyone of anything.

      Rumple is the DO: he murders, lies, etc and he's a terrible, terrible man., during and after.

      Emma was the DO: she lied, lied, lied, and was a selfish person during and after.

      Hook was the DO: he said mean things, sentenced people to death, etc, but he was weak and forced into so it wasn't really his fault.

      The problem lies in this faulty logic. Even Hook admits he was terrible and weak, so excusing him wholly or partially shows some inherent bias (which we all have).

      I'm not excusing any of them. I'm not saying it wasn't at all his fault. But Darkness should give them a benefit of doubt, at least. Passing a judgement entirely based on when they were dark ones is a bit harsh. The thing I like about Killian is that he acknowledges his mistakes and feels genuinely remorseful about it. 

      Yes, he is a flawed person, but aren't they all? Aren't we all? Does that mean he doesn't deserve happiness?

      Emma is flawed too. They both have their pasts and negative qualities. They will make mistakes, they may end up hurting each other, but that doesn't mean they don't love each other or shouldn't be together.

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    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      The problem with the whle Dark One argument is that it doesn't absolve anyone of anything.

      Rumple is the DO: he murders, lies, etc and he's a terrible, terrible man., during and after.

      Emma was the DO: she lied, lied, lied, and was a selfish person during and after.

      Hook was the DO: he said mean things, sentenced people to death, etc, but he was weak and forced into so it wasn't really his fault.

      The problem lies in this faulty logic. Even Hook admits he was terrible and weak, so excusing him wholly or partially shows some inherent bias (which we all have).

      I'm not excusing any of them. I'm not saying it wasn't at all his fault. But Darkness should give them a benefit of doubt, at least. Passing a judgement entirely based on when they were dark ones is a bit harsh. The thing I like about Killian is that he acknowledges his mistakes and feels genuinely remorseful about it. 

      Yes, he is a flawed person, but aren't they all? Aren't we all? Does that mean he doesn't deserve happiness?

      Emma is flawed too. They both have their pasts and negative qualities. They will make mistakes, they may end up hurting each other, but that doesn't mean they don't love each other or shouldn't be together.

      He cold blooded murdered someone and Emma covered for him and it was never mentioned ever since, nor do the horrible things he said to Emma about her, nor the fact that he tried to kill everyone.

      Emma never appologized to Belle about trying to kill her, instead she used her to blackmail Rumple.

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    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      The problem with the whle Dark One argument is that it doesn't absolve anyone of anything.

      Rumple is the DO: he murders, lies, etc and he's a terrible, terrible man., during and after.

      Emma was the DO: she lied, lied, lied, and was a selfish person during and after.

      Hook was the DO: he said mean things, sentenced people to death, etc, but he was weak and forced into so it wasn't really his fault.

      The problem lies in this faulty logic. Even Hook admits he was terrible and weak, so excusing him wholly or partially shows some inherent bias (which we all have).

      I'm not excusing any of them. I'm not saying it wasn't at all his fault. But Darkness should give them a benefit of doubt, at least. Passing a judgement entirely based on when they were dark ones is a bit harsh. The thing I like about Killian is that he acknowledges his mistakes and feels genuinely remorseful about it. 

      Yes, he is a flawed person, but aren't they all? Aren't we all? Does that mean he doesn't deserve happiness?

      Emma is flawed too. They both have their pasts and negative qualities. They will make mistakes, they may end up hurting each other, but that doesn't mean they don't love each other or shouldn't be together.

      Just making sure there's no sidestepping their times as the Dark One. Now I would at best chalk it up to weird writing that the writers do when they make their villains horrendous, unforgivable people.

      If we take their relationship as it is currently in season 6, individually they are pretty neat characters and as I mentioned in an earlier post, from a slight deviation of the best case scenario, any one might look at Emma and think Hook and his happiness is her number one priority. It isn't hard to see. If we just took this season by itself, Emma's focus isn't too bad, but then coupled with last season, her consuming herself with Darkness, her feeling she dragged her whole family to the Underworld to save him, etc, it seems that she's only focused on him (with occasional mentions to her family).

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      The problem with the whle Dark One argument is that it doesn't absolve anyone of anything.

      Rumple is the DO: he murders, lies, etc and he's a terrible, terrible man., during and after.

      Emma was the DO: she lied, lied, lied, and was a selfish person during and after.

      Hook was the DO: he said mean things, sentenced people to death, etc, but he was weak and forced into so it wasn't really his fault.

      The problem lies in this faulty logic. Even Hook admits he was terrible and weak, so excusing him wholly or partially shows some inherent bias (which we all have).

      I'm not excusing any of them. I'm not saying it wasn't at all his fault. But Darkness should give them a benefit of doubt, at least. Passing a judgement entirely based on when they were dark ones is a bit harsh. The thing I like about Killian is that he acknowledges his mistakes and feels genuinely remorseful about it. 

      Yes, he is a flawed person, but aren't they all? Aren't we all? Does that mean he doesn't deserve happiness?

      Emma is flawed too. They both have their pasts and negative qualities. They will make mistakes, they may end up hurting each other, but that doesn't mean they don't love each other or shouldn't be together.

      He cold blooded murdered someone and Emma covered for him and it was never mentioned ever since, nor do the horrible things he said to Emma about her, nor the fact that he tried to kill everyone.

      Emma never appologized to Belle about trying to kill her, instead she used her to blackmail Rumple.

      I'm not going to defend their actions. It was wrong, they know that too and I'm sure they regret it. I don't know why it was never brought up. Probably because they feel horrible enough about that phase without having a trial for every crime they committed.

      I don't see how their crimes are relevant to thee issue of their compatibility as a couple, except for the issue that he verbally abused her. In anger people often say things they don't mean, and they are forgiven for it. You can't just hold that one thing over his head for the rest of eternity, especially when he already feels bad about it.

      And, well, that's my point: he regrets his actions. If someone genuinely regrets what they did, their punishment is also given by themselves. Bringing up his actions repeatedly and punishing him for it can only serve to push him into a pit of depression, and I'm sure they all care enough to not want that.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      Farerb wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      The problem with the whle Dark One argument is that it doesn't absolve anyone of anything.

      Rumple is the DO: he murders, lies, etc and he's a terrible, terrible man., during and after.

      Emma was the DO: she lied, lied, lied, and was a selfish person during and after.

      Hook was the DO: he said mean things, sentenced people to death, etc, but he was weak and forced into so it wasn't really his fault.

      The problem lies in this faulty logic. Even Hook admits he was terrible and weak, so excusing him wholly or partially shows some inherent bias (which we all have).

      I'm not excusing any of them. I'm not saying it wasn't at all his fault. But Darkness should give them a benefit of doubt, at least. Passing a judgement entirely based on when they were dark ones is a bit harsh. The thing I like about Killian is that he acknowledges his mistakes and feels genuinely remorseful about it. 

      Yes, he is a flawed person, but aren't they all? Aren't we all? Does that mean he doesn't deserve happiness?

      Emma is flawed too. They both have their pasts and negative qualities. They will make mistakes, they may end up hurting each other, but that doesn't mean they don't love each other or shouldn't be together.

      He cold blooded murdered someone and Emma covered for him and it was never mentioned ever since, nor do the horrible things he said to Emma about her, nor the fact that he tried to kill everyone.

      Emma never appologized to Belle about trying to kill her, instead she used her to blackmail Rumple.

      I'm not going to defend their actions. It was wrong, they know that too and I'm sure they regret it. I don't know why it was never brought up. Probably because they feel horrible enough about that phase without having a trial for every crime they committed.

      I don't see how their crimes are relevant to thee issue of their compatibility as a couple, except for the issue that he verbally abused her. In anger people often say things they don't mean, and they are forgiven for it. You can't just hold that one thing over his head for the rest of eternity, especially when he already feels bad about it.

      And, well, that's my point: he regrets his actions. If someone genuinely regrets what they did, their punishment is also given by themselves. Bringing up his actions repeatedly and punishing him for it can only serve to push him into a pit of depression, and I'm sure they all care enough to not want that.

      When you committ you go through a trial, that's how justice, anyway they can't be redeemed if they don't repent for their crimes, which they didn't.

      The problem I see here is that a lot of people claim that Hook regrets his action, but it was never shown on screen. If something isn't shown on screen, it didn't happen. We can't headcanon the story just for it to fit the way we like it to be.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Hook does not regret his actions? It was never shown on-screen?

      What's this, then?
      Actual dialogue from the Underworld in "The Brothers Jones":

      Hook: "I'm the problem. Emma, you were the Dark One for six weeks and only gave in to the darkness out of love. I plunged in headfirst in a second for revenge! I was weak!"
      Emma: "Not in the end".
      Hook: "You raised the bar very high, Swan. The fact is, I don't measure up."
      Emma: "Let me be the judge of that. If you didn't, would I have come all the way down here to try to save you?"
      Hook: "That's my point. I'm not sure I deserve saving."

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      The problem with the whle Dark One argument is that it doesn't absolve anyone of anything.

      Rumple is the DO: he murders, lies, etc and he's a terrible, terrible man., during and after.

      Emma was the DO: she lied, lied, lied, and was a selfish person during and after.

      Hook was the DO: he said mean things, sentenced people to death, etc, but he was weak and forced into so it wasn't really his fault.

      The problem lies in this faulty logic. Even Hook admits he was terrible and weak, so excusing him wholly or partially shows some inherent bias (which we all have).

      I'm not excusing any of them. I'm not saying it wasn't at all his fault. But Darkness should give them a benefit of doubt, at least. Passing a judgement entirely based on when they were dark ones is a bit harsh. The thing I like about Killian is that he acknowledges his mistakes and feels genuinely remorseful about it. 

      Yes, he is a flawed person, but aren't they all? Aren't we all? Does that mean he doesn't deserve happiness?

      Emma is flawed too. They both have their pasts and negative qualities. They will make mistakes, they may end up hurting each other, but that doesn't mean they don't love each other or shouldn't be together.

      Just making sure there's no sidestepping their times as the Dark One. Now I would at best chalk it up to weird writing that the writers do when they make their villains horrendous, unforgivable people.

      If we take their relationship as it is currently in season 6, individually they are pretty neat characters and as I mentioned in an earlier post, from a slight deviation of the best case scenario, any one might look at Emma and think Hook and his happiness is her number one priority. It isn't hard to see. If we just took this season by itself, Emma's focus isn't too bad, but then coupled with last season, her consuming herself with Darkness, her feeling she dragged her whole family to the Underworld to save him, etc, it seems that she's only focused on him (with occasional mentions to her family).

      I somehow fail to see that.

      As for going to hell, if it had been Snow or Henry in Killian's position, she would've done the same. But the fact is that it wasn't so she didn't. And Killian is kind of a part of their family.

      She didn't drag anyone per se. As has been repeated, they all made their own decisions. Even if she forced them to stay, they would've followed. The only one she dragged there was Rumple, and that was kind of revenge.

      She loves him. People do things for the people they love, even if they're not strictly 'family'. I think they've given us enough family moments as well, though she didn't have to go to hell and drag people along to get them back. So season 5 had a lot of CS, but season 1 also had a lot of Snowing. I don't know why people can't get over it.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Nightlily wrote: Hook does not regret his actions? It was never shown on-screen?

      What's this, then?
      Actual dialogue from the Underworld in "The Brothers Jones":

      Hook: "I'm the problem. Emma, you were the Dark One for six weeks and only gave in to the darkness out of love. I plunged in headfirst in a second for revenge! I was weak!"
      Emma: "Not in the end".
      Hook: "You raised the bar very high, Swan. The fact is, I don't measure up."
      Emma: "Let me be the judge of that. If you didn't, would I have come all the way down here to try to save you?"
      Hook: "That's my point. I'm not sure I deserve saving."

      A generic apology to cross from the list and then act as if nothing happened. Merlin wasn't revenge and his name wasn't even mentioned once, they went back into calling him the sorcerer as if it's a different character. In addition, What high bar Emma raised? Turning a dwarf into stone? Taking a heart from a five year old girl? Having a Disney princess tied into the front of a car? Making her trying to kill Belle? Yeah what a role model...

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      I somehow fail to see that.

      As for going to hell, if it had been Snow or Henry in Killian's position, she would've done the same. But the fact is that it wasn't so she didn't. And Killian is kind of a part of their family.

      She didn't drag anyone per se. As has been repeated, they all made their own decisions. Even if she forced them to stay, they would've followed. The only one she dragged there was Rumple, and that was kind of revenge.

      She loves him. People do things for the people they love, even if they're not strictly 'family'. I think they've given us enough family moments as well, though she didn't have to go to hell and drag people along to get them back. So season 5 had a lot of CS, but season 1 also had a lot of Snowing. I don't know why people can't get over it.

      I'll rephrase it. Emma loves Hook. Emma loves her son. Emma loves her parents. Emma is friends with many others.

      Season 5A explores Emma giving into Darkness, distancing herself from family and friends, to save Hook. Season 5B has Emma giving into "love", leading her family and friends to save Hook. So, as we agree that that season was slightly CS heavy, so when some see Emma with Archie discussing why she doesn't want to tell her secret, instead of seeing the best case scenario (she's just listing Hook as an eaxmple), they see she's still focused primarily on Hook. This is the best way I can word it.

      This thread is specifically about Emma and Hook, which is why Emma and Hook are the major discussion point. XD (I mean Snowing had some problems when they sometimes forget their child/children, but that's another thread.)

      Emma felt regret for going to the Underworld (as she rightfully should as a human being). Emma did terrible things as Dark One to "save Hook". Etc, etc. So, at a balanced look, not for or against the couple.....they need to spread the "love" equally. They seem like they are doing it by having Hook spend some time with Belle and Emma seems to be starting some balanced split time. Emma has cosidered how Hook would be affected...that's okay. Now will she do the same with her parents and Henry. Emma and Snow sort of skirt around each other a lot without much screentime together.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:

      Nightlily wrote: Hook does not regret his actions? It was never shown on-screen?

      What's this, then?
      Actual dialogue from the Underworld in "The Brothers Jones":

      Hook: "I'm the problem. Emma, you were the Dark One for six weeks and only gave in to the darkness out of love. I plunged in headfirst in a second for revenge! I was weak!"
      Emma: "Not in the end".
      Hook: "You raised the bar very high, Swan. The fact is, I don't measure up."
      Emma: "Let me be the judge of that. If you didn't, would I have come all the way down here to try to save you?"
      Hook: "That's my point. I'm not sure I deserve saving."

      A generic apology to cross from the list and then act as if nothing happened. Merlin wasn't revenge and his name wasn't even mentioned once, they went back into calling him the sorcerer as if it's a different character. In addition, What high bar Emma raised? Turning a dwarf into stone? Taking a heart from a five year old girl? Having a Disney princess tied into the front of a car? Making her trying to kill Belle? Yeah what a role model...

      Hmm... but Hook was regretful. I think you have more of a problem with how the show handles redemption (it's a five step process!) than Hook's apology.

      Hook's apology was perfectly fine. He's not going to name alll 1500 mistakes he made because that's not how that works. He regrets it, he's making amends with some of his victims.

      Hook doesn't know what Emma has done in the plot. The episode clearly explains how he puts people on a pedastal and looks down upon himself. This was a problem which wasn't fully addressed, but Hook's words about Emma are still true (from his perspective).

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      PrettyBlackRosePirate wrote:

      I somehow fail to see that.

      As for going to hell, if it had been Snow or Henry in Killian's position, she would've done the same. But the fact is that it wasn't so she didn't. And Killian is kind of a part of their family.

      She didn't drag anyone per se. As has been repeated, they all made their own decisions. Even if she forced them to stay, they would've followed. The only one she dragged there was Rumple, and that was kind of revenge.

      She loves him. People do things for the people they love, even if they're not strictly 'family'. I think they've given us enough family moments as well, though she didn't have to go to hell and drag people along to get them back. So season 5 had a lot of CS, but season 1 also had a lot of Snowing. I don't know why people can't get over it.

      I'll rephrase it. Emma loves Hook. Emma loves her son. Emma loves her parents. Emma is friends with many others.

      Season 5A explores Emma giving into Darkness, distancing herself from family and friends, to save Hook. Season 5B has Emma giving into "love", leading her family and friends to save Hook. So, as we agree that that season was slightly CS heavy, so when some see Emma with Archie discussing why she doesn't want to tell her secret, instead of seeing the best case scenario (she's just listing Hook as an eaxmple), they see she's still focused primarily on Hook. This is the best way I can word it.

      This thread is specifically about Emma and Hook, which is why Emma and Hook are the major discussion point. XD (I mean Snowing had some problems when they sometimes forget their child/children, but that's another thread.)

      Emma felt regret for going to the Underworld (as she rightfully should as a human being). Emma did terrible things as Dark One to "save Hook". Etc, etc. So, at a balanced look, not for or against the couple.....they need to spread the "love" equally. They seem like they are doing it by having Hook spend some time with Belle and Emma seems to be starting some balanced split time. Emma has cosidered how Hook would be affected...that's okay. Now will she do the same with her parents and Henry. Emma and Snow sort of skirt around each other a lot without much screentime together.

      I think she used the Hook example because the episode was a CS focussed episode. She said "like" meaning one example. But it isnt the only one.

      And I agree about Snow and Emma, but its not a CS problem. Snow outright neglects Emma in favor of Regina.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:

      I think she used the Hook example because the episode was a CS focussed episode. She said "like" meaning one example. But it isnt the only one.

      And I agree about Snow and Emma, but its not a CS problem. Snow outright neglects Emma in favor of Regina.

      I would agree but not with the phrasing. I get around to see an assortment of perspectives, so I can get what you mean, but there's this "It's not this! It's that!" mentality. Snow not having screentime with Emma deals nothing with this idea of "Snow neglecting Emma in favor of Regina". Both Hook and Regina spend more time with Emma than Snow. Take this season 6 for an example, Snow has been in at best 10 scenes with Emma somewhere. Hook and Regina spent like triple or quadruple that. I think they just like their angsty not-villains over the "heroes".

      I did notice one thing which could be more on the writing, but is true nonetheless: Emma did not consider what Henry thought of their relationship. In season 4b and 6, it shows that Henry harbored distrust or small dislike for Hook, probably due to his black and white view of things. You may say that a child has no business in those decisions, but Emma consulted Henry when she was planning to marry Walsh, however, not when it came to Hook. Henry has now established a good bond with Hook that has no dents in it, but it's clear that the writers realized that Henry in canon doesn't like Hook that much and never developed it. Most of the issues with their relationship that I think most have is that it (like pretty much too many things) aren't developed at a decent pace. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • tbf, Ginny is taking time off I think because she had her baby. And yes the lack of Snow/Emma infuriates me, because almost all her scenes are with Regina. Snow is sadly nothing more than Regina's cheerleader now. ANd they would also shove Regina into Emma's scenes because they love Regina too much

      When did the writers ever imply Henry didn't like Hook? He pushed Emma into the diner to get her to ask Hook out. Emma said "Hook's good with Henry and Henry likes him." Henry trusted Hook with his stroybook, his most cherished possession. He was clearly devestated when he died and again when he couldn't come back. When is it ever implied that Henry doesn't like Hook (and no you can't use the Curse of Shattered Sight are your answer)?

      Of course Henry lashed out in season 6. His family was changing. That doesn't mean he disliked Hook (given that he helped Hook pick out the house he and Emma would share one would think the opposite).

      Also Emma did consult Henry about her and Hook. Henry pushed her into the diner to ask him out. She made sure that her son and boyfriend bond with each other. She took his feelings into consideration.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I think it's fairly taken by both Hook and Regina (depends on which of them is more relevant to the arc). It's like the writers are allergic to put Snow and David with Emma, even though they need to be in 4b and 5a.

      4A shows that Henry harbors a disdain for Hook. The SoSS simply reveals the worst things kept inside the person. At best, otherwise, it was never explained away. I think Henry has always had a decent relationship with Hook, but half of this bonding happens offscreen. I'll have to revisit that moment when Henry pushes Emma towards because I don't recall it, even so, I took that as Henry wanting Emma to be happy. (Maybe, just maybe, there should be more scenes between Emma and Hook that include Henry.)

      If you ask me currently, I think their relationship is fine. Weirdly paced, devoid of some key moments, but fine

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Tbh I've given up on Mama Snow. Occassionally, we get Daddy Charming.

      If you believe that, then you must also believe that David doubts the paternity of his child, Anna hates Elsa and Kristoff regrets marrying Anna.

      That is my point, that he believed Hook made Emma happy.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Also in response to the overall thread, you say Hook "allowed" the Cloakies to take Emma's family- he didn't. That was the whole point, he could not go through with it. He would rather die than do that.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Also in response to the overall thread, you say Hook "allowed" the Cloakies to take Emma's family- he didn't. That was the whole point, he could not go through with it. He would rather die than do that.

      If I did, then I don't mean that. I meant that Hook was totally fine with Emma's family dying. He even tossed some snark their way as the boat was arriving. The scene portrays that Hook didn't go through with it because Emma was presently in distress (Emma surely wasn't dying as Nimue said so). That was when he realized what he needed to do. If Emma wasn't there, Emma's family would be dead.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Actually I think he went too far with it. 

      That kind of ruined CaptainSwan for me.

      The whole episode I was expecting Hook to reveal he actually planned it all to save Emma from the Dark One curse, but nope. He actually risked the lifes of his "friends". 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I highly doubt he would have gone through with it since it (and that whole arc) was drastically OOC for him. When push came to shove, he could not go through with it. He knew Emma would not be hurt.

      Also, he was (unwillingly) possessed by the Darkness. Would normal Hook have done that? Hell no. He literally had to become the Dark One to hurt them.

      And he more than made up for what he did. He saved them twice in 5b (well the first was a failure because of Hades but he still chose eternal torment over condemning them).

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:
      I highly doubt he would have gone through with it since it (and that whole arc) was drastically OOC for him. When push came to shove, he could not go through with it. He knew Emma would not be hurt.

      Also, he was (unwillingly) possessed by the Darkness. Would normal Hook have done that? Hell no. He literally had to become the Dark One to hurt them.

      And he more than made up for what he did. He saved them twice in 5b (well the first was a failure because of Hades but he still chose eternal torment over condemning them).

      It wasn't OOC since we are given Rumple and Emma and we see that they did things, noen of which we'd call OOC. Hook in the past often chooses between his revenge and others, he othen picks revenge. He is like Rumple (now).When they think they've lost everything, they go to horrendous measures.

      If you say he's excused because he was unwilling, then Emma didn't take Hook's thoughts into relevance, which counts against a strong knock against it. If those you love shouldn't make important decisions for you, then Emma did a great crime against Hook. And Hook wasn't possessed, he possessed the Darkness. Emma had it and was pretty fine. Rumple has shown to be pretty lax some times (in Stonrybrooke). Hook was just a fury of anger.

      I don't know how he made it up to them. I don't even think he apologized to them. If someone sets your house on fire intent on hurting you, then comes back with to put it out, gives you money for a place to stay, he's still terrible for that deed.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • This man has sexually harassed her mother TWICE and it has never come up. #JustSaying.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      This man has sexually harassed her mother TWICE and it has never come up. #JustSaying.

      What?

      When did this happen?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • 8Rob wrote:

      Farerb wrote:
      This man has sexually harassed her mother TWICE and it has never come up. #JustSaying.

      What?

      When did this happen?

      205 or 206 and 213

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:

      8Rob wrote:

      Farerb wrote:
      This man has sexually harassed her mother TWICE and it has never come up. #JustSaying.
      What?

      When did this happen?

      205 or 206 and 213

      Winking is not harassment. Flirting is not harassment. Pleaase leanr definitions before you throw terms around like that.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      I highly doubt he would have gone through with it since it (and that whole arc) was drastically OOC for him. When push came to shove, he could not go through with it. He knew Emma would not be hurt.

      Also, he was (unwillingly) possessed by the Darkness. Would normal Hook have done that? Hell no. He literally had to become the Dark One to hurt them.

      And he more than made up for what he did. He saved them twice in 5b (well the first was a failure because of Hades but he still chose eternal torment over condemning them).

      It wasn't OOC since we are given Rumple and Emma and we see that they did things, noen of which we'd call OOC. Hook in the past often chooses between his revenge and others, he othen picks revenge. He is like Rumple (now).When they think they've lost everything, they go to horrendous measures.

      If you say he's excused because he was unwilling, then Emma didn't take Hook's thoughts into relevance, which counts against a strong knock against it. If those you love shouldn't make important decisions for you, then Emma did a great crime against Hook. And Hook wasn't possessed, he possessed the Darkness. Emma had it and was pretty fine. Rumple has shown to be pretty lax some times (in Stonrybrooke). Hook was just a fury of anger.

      I don't know how he made it up to them. I don't even think he apologized to them. If someone sets your house on fire intent on hurting you, then comes back with to put it out, gives you money for a place to stay, he's still terrible for that deed.

      1. It was increadibly OOC for Hook to do that. It goes against all 2 seasons of his development. The problem is you are basing it on season 2 Hook. Season 3,4 and 5 Hook always turned away from revenge. 2x22 he was the one who chose to call a truce and find Henry.

      2. Rumple was pretty lax in Storybrooke? The same place where he oppressed the residents and they feared him, beat Moe French to near death, attempted to kill Henry, tried to murder the whole town with Ingrid's help and kidnap and rape Belle, committed genocide and slavery? Dude if that is your definition of lax then.....

      3. Yes Emma did do something bad. It was shown as bad.

      4. My point was Hook would rather die than be the Dark One. That has to be taken into account. He would never do this willingly.

      5. He apologised in deed (and I don't think the fire analogy is a good one given that he never went through with it) by you know..... DYING. And then in 5x14 chose eternal torment over condemning them, then in 5x21 risked his own soul to get the pages up to them. He had mroe fo a redemption in one episode than other villains who committed the same crime (whose names may or may not begin with R) have had in 5 seasons.

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      This man has sexually harassed her mother TWICE and it has never come up. #JustSaying.
      What?

      When did this happen?

      tbf this person does like to yell "sexual harassment" every time Hook looks at a woman.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:

      Farerb wrote:

      8Rob wrote:

      Farerb wrote:
      This man has sexually harassed her mother TWICE and it has never come up. #JustSaying.
      What?

      When did this happen?

      205 or 206 and 213

      Winking is not harassment. Flirting is not harassment. Pleaase leanr definitions before you throw terms around like that.

      Flirting with someone who has no interest like someone who is married IS considered harassment!

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:

      8Rob wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      This man has sexually harassed her mother TWICE and it has never come up. #JustSaying.
      What?

      When did this happen?

      tbf this person does like to yell "sexual harassment" every time Hook looks at a woman.

      Oh, please. "When I jab you with my sword, you will feel it". Very romantic.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote:

      8Rob wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      This man has sexually harassed her mother TWICE and it has never come up. #JustSaying.
      What?

      When did this happen?

      tbf this person does like to yell "sexual harassment" every time Hook looks at a woman.

      Oh, please. "When I jab you with my sword, you will feel it". Very romantic.

      If an innuendo (or rather the unintended implications) was too much for you fine, still not harassment.

      Also it wasn't meant to be romantic. He got punched in the face after it.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote:

      Farerb wrote:

      8Rob wrote:


      Farerb wrote:
      This man has sexually harassed her mother TWICE and it has never come up. #JustSaying.
      What?

      When did this happen?

      205 or 206 and 213
      Winking is not harassment. Flirting is not harassment. Pleaase leanr definitions before you throw terms around like that.

      Flirting with someone who has no interest like someone who is married IS considered harassment!

      "Thank you milady" *wink*. That's it.

      "Either have your lovely wife torture it out of me....." And then he got strangled. He got strangled for making a flirty remark at Snow. Yes s2 Hook was a douche and a frat boy. Still never touched Snow. Never made any implication about sex.

      But again, you seem to love usign that term like it's a beach ball and you can throw it wherever you please

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    • Let's not debate semantics: It is harrassment. But I casually side-wipe it as done in jest. It's interesting to see his innuendo front was likely a defense mechanism for his low self-esteem.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Let's not debate semantics: It is harrassment. But I casually side-wipe it as done in jest. It's interesting to see his innuendo front was likely a defense mechanism for his low self-esteem.

      Finally something we agree on. The swaggering innuendo bit was most definitely an act (espeically the "jab you with my sword" since he was stalling). But I don't see winking at a woman as harassment, it's annoying.

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    • Just as long as we remember that their so called love story started when she found him hiding under a pile of dead bodies he either helped kill or stood by and watched.

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    • Farerb wrote:
      Just as long as we remember that their so called love story started when she found him hiding under a pile of dead bodies he either helped kill or stood by and watched.

      He didn't work for Cora by choice-she had tortured him into working for him ("when you hold a heart, you control it") and she'd have killed him for interfering. 

      And it's a trope-enemies to lovers. It happens all the time, in fiction, in another universe. All the couples on this show met in messed up ways because its a fantasy, fairytale show (Snowing met afte she assualted and robbed him and he blackmailed-with the threat of death-her into doing something for him). If the trope doesn't do it for you personally fine, but that doesn't mean its a bad relationship.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      Just as long as we remember that their so called love story started when she found him hiding under a pile of dead bodies he either helped kill or stood by and watched.
      He didn't work for Cora by choice-she had tortured him into working for him ("when you hold a heart, you control it") and she'd have killed him for interfering. 

      And it's a trope-enemies to lovers. It happens all the time, in fiction, in another universe. All the couples on this show met in messed up ways because its a fantasy, fairytale show (Snowing met afte she assualted and robbed him and he blackmailed-with the threat of death-her into doing something for him). If the trope doesn't do it for you personally fine, but that doesn't mean its a bad relationship.

      The trope is fairly common. However, Hook work for Cora of his own free will. Cora never commanded him to do a thing, never tortured him, simply gave him a choice "listen to Regina or team with her". Clearly he had a choice because he double-crossed her (twice).

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      Just as long as we remember that their so called love story started when she found him hiding under a pile of dead bodies he either helped kill or stood by and watched.
      He didn't work for Cora by choice-she had tortured him into working for him ("when you hold a heart, you control it") and she'd have killed him for interfering. 

      And it's a trope-enemies to lovers. It happens all the time, in fiction, in another universe. All the couples on this show met in messed up ways because its a fantasy, fairytale show (Snowing met afte she assualted and robbed him and he blackmailed-with the threat of death-her into doing something for him). If the trope doesn't do it for you personally fine, but that doesn't mean its a bad relationship.

      The trope is fairly common. However, Hook work for Cora of his own free will. Cora never commanded him to do a thing, never tortured him, simply gave him a choice "listen to Regina or team with her". Clearly he had a choice because he double-crossed her (twice).

      "You're now going to tell everything and do exactly as I say, because when you hold aheart, you control it."-The line that was said. [the scene in case you need it].

      And even if he was working for Cora of his own free will, she still would have killed him if he interfered with her massacre, then went on with it. And given that he jumped ship as soon as he could, we can safely say he wasn't okay with it at all

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    • Aine1989 wrote:

      "You're now going to tell everything and do exactly as I say, because when you hold aheart, you control it."-The line that was said. [the scene in case you need it].

      And even if he was working for Cora of his own free will, she still would have killed him if he interfered with her massacre, then went on with it. And given that he jumped ship as soon as he could, we can safely say he wasn't okay with it at all

      I know about that scene. You are drawing connections from Cora making Hook tell it was Regina who sent him (which she lets go after a while), then offers Hook to join her. She wasn't controlling him for 28 years afterwards because she stopped once she relinquished possession/grasp of the heart.

      He was helping her because she offered him what he wanted. I don't think he killed any villager (given that nearly all seen had their heart ripped out). However, he had full control of himself and did everything in his power (even doublecrossing her once) to get his revenge.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:

      "You're now going to tell everything and do exactly as I say, because when you hold aheart, you control it."-The line that was said. [the scene in case you need it].

      And even if he was working for Cora of his own free will, she still would have killed him if he interfered with her massacre, then went on with it. And given that he jumped ship as soon as he could, we can safely say he wasn't okay with it at all

      I know about that scene. You are drawing connections from Cora making Hook tell it was Regina who sent him (which she lets go after a while), then offers Hook to join her. She wasn't controlling him for 28 years afterwards because she stopped once she relinquished possession/grasp of the heart.

      He was helping her because she offered him what he wanted. I don't think he killed any villager (given that nearly all seen had their heart ripped out). However, he had full control of himself and did everything in his power (even doublecrossing her once) to get his revenge.

      She might not have had his heart but she could still kill him at any moment. She had a metaphorical gun to his head.

      Also she said "you'll do exactly as I say" while holding his heart. She gave him an order while controlling him, so this order could have followed through even when he had hsi heart (if that makes sense).

      And from what we saw of Hook's relationship with Cora, she didn't tell him about her plans, meaning he didn't know until she was about to do it (or possibly after she'd already done it).

      And yes he didn't kill any villager. But he also couldn't have stopped it.

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    • It is futile.

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    • Because I cannot keep coming onto this thread without saying something.

      Let me start with I know the writing for CS-like anything on this show-is not perfect. However, it is one of the few healthy relationships on this show (others being Snowing, Millian, Kristanna, Thomas/Ella).

      Who is the one who is always building up Emma's confidence and chasing away her insecurities, who tells her he "has yet to see her fail", he "knew she'd find him", she "can do it", she "is the Savior", she's "got this", she "can overcome anything", says the Evil Queen can't take away her work as the Savior because "my Emma is too strong for that"? Killian Jones.

      Who is the one constantly endorsing Emma's free will and agency-it "has to be her choice" and waited for her to make the first move (with regard to everything, the first kiss, first date, moving in-"Hook's waiting for me to ask him"? Killian Jones

      Who is the one who traded his home for Emma to get back to hers (and not once tried to throw it in her face and had to backed into a corner to make him tell her)? Killian Jones.

      Who is the one who will lay down his life for her without a second thought, who would risk the wrath of the Dark One for her, who "can't lose the one thing that might help save you, even if it meant you'd hate me", who fought for her in the Storybook despite having no memory of her and only knowing her for a few minutes? Killian Jones.

      Who said she "hoped she never forgave him"? Killian Jones

      Who will "die happy knowing she  has a future" and whose last wish before she left him behind forever was "don't put your armour back on just because you're going to lose me"? Killian Jones.

      Who gives her the support she needs when she's upset? Killian Jones

      Who considers it "an honour" to see her past? Killian Jones

      Who makes Emma smile so brightly it challenges the sun? Killian McFreaking Jones

      Who, when she couldn't use her magic, pulled her into a hug and whispered "it's okay" in her ear? Killian Jones

      Who, when he was in the wrong, comes out and admits "I'm sorry, you were right"? Killian Jones

      Who, when she was going to therapy sessions with Archie, was happy that she was getting help and supportive of it? Killian Jones.

      Who was it who made sure she got the full princess experience in their time travel adventure? If you said Killian Jones you were correct!!!

      Who is more than content for her to take the lead in everything they do? Killian Jones

      Who is always looking out for her well being, be it a cut or if she needs some rest or if she is upset about something? Killian Jones!

      The only time he has treated her badly was when he was the Dark One (which he would rather die than be). It is shown that you cannot have a healthy relationship with the Dark One. I do find it rather telling that he had to literally be unwillingly possessed before he could say a bad word about her in their relationship.

      As an Emma fan, I (and my many otherr shipmates who are Emma fans, as well as those who don't ship CS but support it because Hook makes her happy) want her to be happy, to have someone there for her, to be her rock, her best friend, who respects her and treats her like gold after a lifetime of being treated like trash.  And for me (and many others) that person is Killian Jones.

      (it actually took me to 3b to start liking Hook and shipping CS because I was seeing how happy he made her)

      So no, I don't think a relationship where one is constantly building up the other and making her happy, a relationship based on mutual trust and respect, is bad for Emma. If you are willing to let three episodes take presedence over 3 seasons of established characterisation, then I don't know what to tell you.

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    • Are people really still discussing this? Emma and Hook are fine. They are not perfect, but Emma herself is imperfect, so who ever she is with is also going to be imperfect. And if we look at all the characters on this show, Emma could have done a lot worse than Hook.

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    • I'm a Captain Swan shipper, or at least a supporter. I don't ship it like I ship other couples, but in some ways, I do. But that wasn't the topic, the topic was, is Emma putting Hook over Henry (in theory) a real thing (If I understood it right.)

      OUAT actually has a thing for making abuse look romantic. Just look at Rumbelle. Their relationship was abuse from Day 1, but it got changed to "seeing the man behing the beast" to "seeing a beast and lying to myself there's still some humanity left behind it", sweetened up with a proposal using a fake symbol of trust and a wedding in the middle of the woods with two witnesses, with citations in "nobody's perfect" way.

      If you look it like that, Captain Swan doesn't seem as bad. Unlike Snowing, a literal fairytale romance, all other ships have its flaws.

      Snowing's biggest flaws is that it's too perfect, there's no conflict and they somehow seem like a boring couple. But trying to kill someone's son doesn't make just an couple obstacle, is a serious argument to call it a toxic relationship. Well, it is, unless you realize the man who tried to do all that wasn't really Hook. It was Dark One Hook, who tried to emotionally damage and hurt Emma using her deepest wounds and sending her family to supposed Hell. Real Hook would never do something like that.

      Dark Swan arc was a flawe concept, and Dark One Emma was a flawed concept. It started with her almost killing Merida, than a time jump of full Evil Emma dramatically threating her entire family, done to make an episode more intense for the sake of plot and logic, then went to flashbacks of Emma making Hook the Dark One, as we learn of her taking away all of her family's memories of the entire Camelot thing just so they don't remember Hook was ever a Dark One and make Hook somehow forget it himself. This again, is messed up, weird, illogical because Hook seemed okay until he learned what Emma did. And it didn't just make Hook darker, it made Emma darker.

      In later episodes, after this whole dramatic "I'm going to punish you" performace, we can see how Emma is trying to connect with Henry, how she feels isolated and we, wievers, wonder what happened, how did she get like this.

      Emma didn't really go evil. She did some morally questionable things (like making Violet break up with Henry, which was shocking and so not Emma-like, and supposedly evil). But she wasn't Evil Queen Evil, Cruella Evil, Rumple Evil. Not even Emma Evil. When she did something morally questionable, she thought she did it for the right reason, for a good purpose. Even when she was hurting her own son, she stil thought she's doing the right thing and she later felt great guilt.

      Her mind was not the same, her sense of morality was not the same, she did things Savior Emma would never do. Even though she is a Savior and a part of her darkness was removed before her birth, she still didn't stay the same.

      And now let's look at Hook. This man was spending centuries trying to avenge his murdered lover and kill her murderer. He spent years as a pirate, killed a man for calling him one-handed and an another one for drinking his wine. He was a villain. Unlike Emma, he had a lot of darkness.

      He begged Emma to let him die, because he knew he can't resist the darkness and he wanted Emma to move on and be happy. She didn't, because she was selfish: yes, she was. But she lost Neal. She lost Graham. Even Walsh died. Every single one of Emma's love interests has suffered such a fate. She said it herself. She was afraid she was losing Hook! And now, she was losing him. In this moment, she had a choice- let my love die or try to save him. She was aware she'll make herself darker and she was already fighting the darkness. But she loved Hook and she would risk it to save him from death. We can call it selfish.

      She was aware it will possibly turn Hook into a vengeful murderous pirate again. She took that risk because she loved him and she believed he loves her enough to not murder people. And when Hook went dark, when Hook was mad at Emma, and hurt by Emma not respecting his wishes, Emma still tried to save their relationship, doing everything she thought is right.

      Yes, Emma's character changed since season 1. This women went from a bail bonds person and a non-believer to a daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming, who shares custody over her biological son with an now ex Evil Queen, the son who is also the son of the son of Rumplestiltskin, dealing with constant curses, dangerous new villians, learning magic herself... and a lot of emotional trauma that would seriously damage a person. She found her family, but it was hard for her stop seeing herself as an orphan. She's not the same person anymore. 

      Also, Neal. He left her pregnant in jail (not knowing she's pregnant) for stealing watches. Neal was a nice guy, but all those years Emma thought of him as a man who betrayed her, deeply hurt her, broke her heart. Hook isn't with Emma because Colin is hot, he's with Emma because they love each other. Neal was Emma's past love, a big love. She loved him and she still does, but not the same way. He's still Henry's father.

      Hook is her future, Neal is her past.

      Also, Henry is grown up now. While it might seem that Regina and Emma sometimes choose their lovers over their shared son, we all know they'd both die for Henry, that's not questionable. But Henry, he is now a practically grown man (who missed a lot of school and is much more mature then my classmates ever were). Henry is the Author, he is a hero. While he stilll needs his mothers' love and attention in his life and he has it, while Emma loves him the same as all past seasons, while they are still a mother and a son who love each other, he isn't a little child anymore. Emma cares about Henry's happines the most, but he has grown enough to take care of his own life. It also matters to say neither Emma or Regina or Snow are perfect mothers, same as they are not perfect people.

      I'd say... Hook and Emma's relationship isn't bad for Emma and Hook cares about Henry, and Emma loves Henry. Hook, as a newborn Dark One, wasn't really himself when he endangered and tried to kill Emma's family. This isn't a man Emma is dating right now.

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    • Well, I agree with many of the things the above poster said, I'd like to point out Henry is actually only like 13 in the show. Yes, the actor is 16 now, which means he's almost a legal adult. And yes, parents start to let their children be more independant in their teenage years. But still, Henry is fairly young overall. I'd actually like a time jump soon to address this actually, as it is getting a bit ridicoulous.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Well, I agree with many of the things the above poster said, I'd like to point out Henry is actually only like 13 in the show. Yes, the actor is 16 now, which means he's almost a legal adult. And yes, parents start to let their children be more independant in their teenage years. But still, Henry is fairly young overall. I'd actually like a time jump soon to address this actually, as it is getting a bit ridicoulous.

      When I said Henry is grown up, I meant "being able to make good choices and think for himself". I know Henry's a teenager, I just didn't know what his exact age is and I don't remember anyone mentioning Henry's age, since that time he screamed "Eleven!" to Neal in that episode in which they reveal he's Henry's father. Thank you for pointing that out, I just wanted you to know I didn't mean "old enough to drive a car" when I said he's now an adult. I guess my use of words was confusing. Actually, we saw that Henry can drive a car pretty well after his whole family gets sucked in into a book, and I didn't actually know he's just 13? If I drove a car at that age, I'd probably crash into something. BTW, I hope this post isn't too off topic, there's probably another one for Henry's age. 

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    • Selena Adalwolf wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Well, I agree with many of the things the above poster said, I'd like to point out Henry is actually only like 13 in the show. Yes, the actor is 16 now, which means he's almost a legal adult. And yes, parents start to let their children be more independant in their teenage years. But still, Henry is fairly young overall. I'd actually like a time jump soon to address this actually, as it is getting a bit ridicoulous.
      When I said Henry is grown up, I meant "being able to make good choices and think for himself". I know Henry's a teenager, I just didn't know what his exact age is and I don't remember anyone mentioning Henry's age, since that time he screamed "Eleven!" to Neal in that episode in which they reveal he's Henry's father. Thank you for pointing that out, I just wanted you to know I didn't mean "old enough to drive a car" when I said he's now an adult. I guess my use of words was confusing. Actually, we saw that Henry can drive a car pretty well after his whole family gets sucked in into a book, and I didn't actually know he's just 13? If I drove a car at that age, I'd probably crash into something. BTW, I hope this post isn't too off topic, there's probably another one for Henry's age. 

      Fair enough. Also, I think this is on topic, as we were discussing Henry's age in relation to Emma and Hook's relationship.

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    • Thing is though I'm pretty sure there are many examples of Emma being mad at Mr Gold for some bad deeds he's done whilst being the dark one, yet when Hook is the dark one and does cruel things, she's wayyyyy easier on him. I just felt like that might be quite relevant to this thread.

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    • Yep, it's fine. Season 3B had a good relationship between Cursed Henry and Hook and the brought back in full in season 6. (I don't count Cursed Henry and Hook anymore than not including MM and Emma because it's sort of......iffy). There was a lack, like......

      3B ended cursed Henry and Hook's hangout time (which I don't really count), same time CS started to rise. Flashes of Henry not liking Hook, teaming up with Hook amongst great CS flourishment. Outside of meta-ness of the writers focusing on romance more and more, it was a disservice. I'm no Hook and Emma fan, but I'm sure those fans would love that. 

      Henry is like 12ish and he's in all his mother's relationships but never with either male figure to a decent degree. If I had to guess, Emma's scenes are largely populated by those with Hook (who's slowly stealing Henry's role) and Regina. Hook's are primarily with Emma. Henry's probably in more enseble scenes than anything else.

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    • Touli wrote:
      Thing is though I'm pretty sure there are many examples of Emma being mad at Mr Gold for some bad deeds he's done whilst being the dark one, yet when Hook is the dark one and does cruel things, she's wayyyyy easier on him. I just felt like that might be quite relevant to this thread.

      It's probably mentioned somwhere. XD

      However, it's not unreasonable, well, in comparison to everyone refusing to help save Rumple when they were just sitting around "saving" Emma.

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    • Touli wrote:
      Thing is though I'm pretty sure there are many examples of Emma being mad at Mr Gold for some bad deeds he's done whilst being the dark one, yet when Hook is the dark one and does cruel things, she's wayyyyy easier on him. I just felt like that might be quite relevant to this thread.

      Simple: Hook redeemed himself and has shown he can be better. Gold continues to hurt Emma and her family. Hook willingly gave up the Darkness, Rumple willingly keeps it (screwing over Emma's loves ones int he process). Also Rumple's crimes against her and her family are way worse than Hook's.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Yep, it's fine. Season 3B had a good relationship between Cursed Henry and Hook and the brought back in full in season 6. (I don't count Cursed Henry and Hook anymore than not including MM and Emma because it's sort of......iffy). There was a lack, like......

      3B ended cursed Henry and Hook's hangout time (which I don't really count), same time CS started to rise. Flashes of Henry not liking Hook, teaming up with Hook amongst great CS flourishment. Outside of meta-ness of the writers focusing on romance more and more, it was a disservice. I'm no Hook and Emma fan, but I'm sure those fans would love that. 

      Henry is like 12ish and he's in all his mother's relationships but never with either male figure to a decent degree. If I had to guess, Emma's scenes are largely populated by those with Hook (who's slowly stealing Henry's role) and Regina. Hook's are primarily with Emma. Henry's probably in more enseble scenes than anything else.

      Where is it shown that Henry dislikes Hook? He said in 4x04 that he knows Hook makes Emma happy and we know from 4a that they go out sailing together. 

      I think the 6x06 was more of a reaction to his family changing than Hook specifically but by the end he came back for him.

      And just on the point of cursed!person and someone else, I think that for a cursed person to be drawn to and want to be with a person they have no memory of (unless they were magically forced to be with them) they have to have some underlying, unknown affection for them. Like in s1, I got the vibe that MM somehow was drawn to Emma because she loved her when she was Snow. If that makes sense

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    • Selena Adalwolf wrote:
      I'm a Captain Swan shipper, or at least a supporter. I don't ship it like I ship other couples, but in some ways, I do. But that wasn't the topic, the topic was, is Emma putting Hook over Henry (in theory) a real thing (If I understood it right.)

      OUAT actually has a thing for making abuse look romantic. Just look at Rumbelle. Their relationship was abuse from Day 1, but it got changed to "seeing the man behing the beast" to "seeing a beast and lying to myself there's still some humanity left behind it", sweetened up with a proposal using a fake symbol of trust and a wedding in the middle of the woods with two witnesses, with citations in "nobody's perfect" way.

      If you look it like that, Captain Swan doesn't seem as bad. Unlike Snowing, a literal fairytale romance, all other ships have its flaws.

      Snowing's biggest flaws is that it's too perfect, there's no conflict and they somehow seem like a boring couple. But trying to kill someone's son doesn't make just an couple obstacle, is a serious argument to call it a toxic relationship. Well, it is, unless you realize the man who tried to do all that wasn't really Hook. It was Dark One Hook, who tried to emotionally damage and hurt Emma using her deepest wounds and sending her family to supposed Hell. Real Hook would never do something like that.

      Dark Swan arc was a flawe concept, and Dark One Emma was a flawed concept. It started with her almost killing Merida, than a time jump of full Evil Emma dramatically threating her entire family, done to make an episode more intense for the sake of plot and logic, then went to flashbacks of Emma making Hook the Dark One, as we learn of her taking away all of her family's memories of the entire Camelot thing just so they don't remember Hook was ever a Dark One and make Hook somehow forget it himself. This again, is messed up, weird, illogical because Hook seemed okay until he learned what Emma did. And it didn't just make Hook darker, it made Emma darker.

      In later episodes, after this whole dramatic "I'm going to punish you" performace, we can see how Emma is trying to connect with Henry, how she feels isolated and we, wievers, wonder what happened, how did she get like this.

      Emma didn't really go evil. She did some morally questionable things (like making Violet break up with Henry, which was shocking and so not Emma-like, and supposedly evil). But she wasn't Evil Queen Evil, Cruella Evil, Rumple Evil. Not even Emma Evil. When she did something morally questionable, she thought she did it for the right reason, for a good purpose. Even when she was hurting her own son, she stil thought she's doing the right thing and she later felt great guilt.

      Her mind was not the same, her sense of morality was not the same, she did things Savior Emma would never do. Even though she is a Savior and a part of her darkness was removed before her birth, she still didn't stay the same.

      And now let's look at Hook. This man was spending centuries trying to avenge his murdered lover and kill her murderer. He spent years as a pirate, killed a man for calling him one-handed and an another one for drinking his wine. He was a villain. Unlike Emma, he had a lot of darkness.

      He begged Emma to let him die, because he knew he can't resist the darkness and he wanted Emma to move on and be happy. She didn't, because she was selfish: yes, she was. But she lost Neal. She lost Graham. Even Walsh died. Every single one of Emma's love interests has suffered such a fate. She said it herself. She was afraid she was losing Hook! And now, she was losing him. In this moment, she had a choice- let my love die or try to save him. She was aware she'll make herself darker and she was already fighting the darkness. But she loved Hook and she would risk it to save him from death. We can call it selfish.

      She was aware it will possibly turn Hook into a vengeful murderous pirate again. She took that risk because she loved him and she believed he loves her enough to not murder people. And when Hook went dark, when Hook was mad at Emma, and hurt by Emma not respecting his wishes, Emma still tried to save their relationship, doing everything she thought is right.

      Yes, Emma's character changed since season 1. This women went from a bail bonds person and a non-believer to a daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming, who shares custody over her biological son with an now ex Evil Queen, the son who is also the son of the son of Rumplestiltskin, dealing with constant curses, dangerous new villians, learning magic herself... and a lot of emotional trauma that would seriously damage a person. She found her family, but it was hard for her stop seeing herself as an orphan. She's not the same person anymore. 

      Also, Neal. He left her pregnant in jail (not knowing she's pregnant) for stealing watches. Neal was a nice guy, but all those years Emma thought of him as a man who betrayed her, deeply hurt her, broke her heart. Hook isn't with Emma because Colin is hot, he's with Emma because they love each other. Neal was Emma's past love, a big love. She loved him and she still does, but not the same way. He's still Henry's father.

      Hook is her future, Neal is her past.

      Also, Henry is grown up now. While it might seem that Regina and Emma sometimes choose their lovers over their shared son, we all know they'd both die for Henry, that's not questionable. But Henry, he is now a practically grown man (who missed a lot of school and is much more mature then my classmates ever were). Henry is the Author, he is a hero. While he stilll needs his mothers' love and attention in his life and he has it, while Emma loves him the same as all past seasons, while they are still a mother and a son who love each other, he isn't a little child anymore. Emma cares about Henry's happines the most, but he has grown enough to take care of his own life. It also matters to say neither Emma or Regina or Snow are perfect mothers, same as they are not perfect people.

      I'd say... Hook and Emma's relationship isn't bad for Emma and Hook cares about Henry, and Emma loves Henry. Hook, as a newborn Dark One, wasn't really himself when he endangered and tried to kill Emma's family. This isn't a man Emma is dating right now.

      Thank you. This is how I feel exactly. Same with the two comments directly above yours. I'm grateful to finally have my own thoughts put into words.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Because I cannot keep coming onto this thread without saying something.

      Let me start with I know the writing for CS-like anything on this show-is not perfect. However, it is one of the few healthy relationships on this show (others being Snowing, Millian, Kristanna, Thomas/Ella).

      Who is the one who is always building up Emma's confidence and chasing away her insecurities, who tells her he "has yet to see her fail", he "knew she'd find him", she "can do it", she "is the Savior", she's "got this", she "can overcome anything", says the Evil Queen can't take away her work as the Savior because "my Emma is too strong for that"? Killian Jones.

      Who is the one constantly endorsing Emma's free will and agency-it "has to be her choice" and waited for her to make the first move (with regard to everything, the first kiss, first date, moving in-"Hook's waiting for me to ask him"? Killian Jones

      Who is the one who traded his home for Emma to get back to hers (and not once tried to throw it in her face and had to backed into a corner to make him tell her)? Killian Jones.

      Who is the one who will lay down his life for her without a second thought, who would risk the wrath of the Dark One for her, who "can't lose the one thing that might help save you, even if it meant you'd hate me", who fought for her in the Storybook despite having no memory of her and only knowing her for a few minutes? Killian Jones.

      Who said she "hoped she never forgave him"? Killian Jones

      Who will "die happy knowing she  has a future" and whose last wish before she left him behind forever was "don't put your armour back on just because you're going to lose me"? Killian Jones.

      Who gives her the support she needs when she's upset? Killian Jones

      Who considers it "an honour" to see her past? Killian Jones

      Who makes Emma smile so brightly it challenges the sun? Killian McFreaking Jones

      Who, when she couldn't use her magic, pulled her into a hug and whispered "it's okay" in her ear? Killian Jones

      Who, when he was in the wrong, comes out and admits "I'm sorry, you were right"? Killian Jones

      Who, when she was going to therapy sessions with Archie, was happy that she was getting help and supportive of it? Killian Jones.

      Who was it who made sure she got the full princess experience in their time travel adventure? If you said Killian Jones you were correct!!!

      Who is more than content for her to take the lead in everything they do? Killian Jones

      Who is always looking out for her well being, be it a cut or if she needs some rest or if she is upset about something? Killian Jones!

      The only time he has treated her badly was when he was the Dark One (which he would rather die than be). It is shown that you cannot have a healthy relationship with the Dark One. I do find it rather telling that he had to literally be unwillingly possessed before he could say a bad word about her in their relationship.

      As an Emma fan, I (and my many otherr shipmates who are Emma fans, as well as those who don't ship CS but support it because Hook makes her happy) want her to be happy, to have someone there for her, to be her rock, her best friend, who respects her and treats her like gold after a lifetime of being treated like trash.  And for me (and many others) that person is Killian Jones.

      (it actually took me to 3b to start liking Hook and shipping CS because I was seeing how happy he made her)

      So no, I don't think a relationship where one is constantly building up the other and making her happy, a relationship based on mutual trust and respect, is bad for Emma. If you are willing to let three episodes take presedence over 3 seasons of established characterisation, then I don't know what to tell you.

      Thank you!  I really hate it when people ignore established facts and character growth to maintain whatever they're trying to breakdown. Emma and Killian, while imperfect people, are perfect for each other.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Emillian Swanones wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Because I cannot keep coming onto this thread without saying something.

      Let me start with I know the writing for CS-like anything on this show-is not perfect. However, it is one of the few healthy relationships on this show (others being Snowing, Millian, Kristanna, Thomas/Ella).

      Who is the one who is always building up Emma's confidence and chasing away her insecurities, who tells her he "has yet to see her fail", he "knew she'd find him", she "can do it", she "is the Savior", she's "got this", she "can overcome anything", says the Evil Queen can't take away her work as the Savior because "my Emma is too strong for that"? Killian Jones.

      Who is the one constantly endorsing Emma's free will and agency-it "has to be her choice" and waited for her to make the first move (with regard to everything, the first kiss, first date, moving in-"Hook's waiting for me to ask him"? Killian Jones

      Who is the one who traded his home for Emma to get back to hers (and not once tried to throw it in her face and had to backed into a corner to make him tell her)? Killian Jones.

      Who is the one who will lay down his life for her without a second thought, who would risk the wrath of the Dark One for her, who "can't lose the one thing that might help save you, even if it meant you'd hate me", who fought for her in the Storybook despite having no memory of her and only knowing her for a few minutes? Killian Jones.

      Who said she "hoped she never forgave him"? Killian Jones

      Who will "die happy knowing she  has a future" and whose last wish before she left him behind forever was "don't put your armour back on just because you're going to lose me"? Killian Jones.

      Who gives her the support she needs when she's upset? Killian Jones

      Who considers it "an honour" to see her past? Killian Jones

      Who makes Emma smile so brightly it challenges the sun? Killian McFreaking Jones

      Who, when she couldn't use her magic, pulled her into a hug and whispered "it's okay" in her ear? Killian Jones

      Who, when he was in the wrong, comes out and admits "I'm sorry, you were right"? Killian Jones

      Who, when she was going to therapy sessions with Archie, was happy that she was getting help and supportive of it? Killian Jones.

      Who was it who made sure she got the full princess experience in their time travel adventure? If you said Killian Jones you were correct!!!

      Who is more than content for her to take the lead in everything they do? Killian Jones

      Who is always looking out for her well being, be it a cut or if she needs some rest or if she is upset about something? Killian Jones!

      The only time he has treated her badly was when he was the Dark One (which he would rather die than be). It is shown that you cannot have a healthy relationship with the Dark One. I do find it rather telling that he had to literally be unwillingly possessed before he could say a bad word about her in their relationship.

      As an Emma fan, I (and my many otherr shipmates who are Emma fans, as well as those who don't ship CS but support it because Hook makes her happy) want her to be happy, to have someone there for her, to be her rock, her best friend, who respects her and treats her like gold after a lifetime of being treated like trash.  And for me (and many others) that person is Killian Jones.

      (it actually took me to 3b to start liking Hook and shipping CS because I was seeing how happy he made her)

      So no, I don't think a relationship where one is constantly building up the other and making her happy, a relationship based on mutual trust and respect, is bad for Emma. If you are willing to let three episodes take presedence over 3 seasons of established characterisation, then I don't know what to tell you.

      Thank you!  I really hate it when people ignore established facts and character growth to maintain whatever they're trying to breakdown. Emma and Killian, while imperfect people, are perfect for each other.

      My thoughts exactly. If I might add to those who don't get that, nobody is perfect. The fact that Snow and David (whom I both love) are typically portrayed that way is usually where people tend to complain about them. Emma and Hook seem more like a normal healthy relationship.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • So Hook and Emma have been together for 3 seasons and they have never and will never share a TLK. What do you think that means?!?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • But they are true love. It was during the Underworld arc. There was test or something

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    • 8Rob wrote: But they are true love. It was during the Underworld arc. There was test or something

      Oh, right, and since Emma is selfish, she would have failed the test had there been someone else instead of Hook.

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    • Since I believe that Emma probably has True Love with everybody, sure. It's what she is.

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    • Eskaver wrote: Since I believe that Emma probably has True Love with everybody, sure. It's what she is.

      Well, she doesn't have true love with her parents, that's why she never tried to wake them up from double sleeping curse.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: Since I believe that Emma probably has True Love with everybody, sure. It's what she is.

      Well, she doesn't have true love with her parents, that's why she never tried to wake them up from double sleeping curse.

      Proof? I'm pretty sure that was because she probably couldn't find a way to kiss two people at the same time.

      If anyone was in the Test of True Love, Emma would save them. She was even willing to defend Regina in season 2, despite the fact that Regina tried to kill her twice.

      I look it as Emma said. Emma is the Light that creates more Light. She lifts Hook up from Darkness. But Hook, meaning well and all, drags her slightly down. In the wait for Gideon, Hook suggests that Emma (and them) kill Gideon. Emma doesn't do so as she recognized with Regina it was a trap, plus, she acknoledge her role as that light that creates more light.

      Sort of why the title of the thrread is the way it is. I think Emma and Hook could be a fine couple, but Hook, whether trying hard to be good and determined or not, has a tendency to drag Emma down, whether directly "Then we kill him" or indirectly "I can't let you go, Hook".

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Farerb wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: Since I believe that Emma probably has True Love with everybody, sure. It's what she is.

      Well, she doesn't have true love with her parents, that's why she never tried to wake them up from double sleeping curse.
      Proof? I'm pretty sure that was because she probably couldn't find a way to kiss two people at the same time.

      If anyone was in the Test of True Love, Emma would save them. She was even willing to defend Regina in season 2, despite the fact that Regina tried to kill her twice.

      I look it as Emma said. Emma is the Light that creates more Light. She lifts Hook up from Darkness. But Hook, meaning well and all, drags her slightly down. In the wait for Gideon, Hook suggests that Emma (and them) kill Gideon. Emma doesn't do so as she recognized with Regina it was a trap, plus, she acknoledge her role as that light that creates more light.

      Sort of why the title of the thrread is the way it is. I think Emma and Hook could be a fine couple, but Hook, whether trying hard to be good and determined or not, has a tendency to drag Emma down, whether directly "Then we kill him" or indirectly "I can't let you go, Hook".

      Then you must think the same of Snowing. Since Snow is much  more codependent on David than Emma is on Hook.

      I don't really get what you're putting down here. Hook is used as leverage against Emma and that makes him bad for her?

      Is Emma being confident in herself and her capabilities and being happy is "dragging her down"?

      Also lol is this thread still going?

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    • Farerb wrote:
      So Hook and Emma have been together for 3 seasons and they have never and will never share a TLK. What do you think that means?!?

      That the writers are dumb? I'm kind of glad they didn't have one, sicne between they are handed out like candy at a parade (and since Zades and Regal Believer had one it has been cheapened in my view).

      But we have two True Love confirmations; the UW test and the pixie dust flower (actually three since Hook got clippy!Rumple out of Emma's head and the only other person to do that was Henry, Emma's other True Love. Four if you count lighting the Promethean flame). Time to stop living in denial and accept canon.

      Also, may I remind you that Emma is not real? Hook isn't real. Neither of them are real. They are what the writers say they are and the writers (and production team ie. a promo saying "[Emma] lost her one true love [Hook]" have said (in interviews and in show) that they are true love. Emma and Hook aren't real people being forced together by A&E, they are fictional characters and if the writers say they are X Y or Z then that is canon.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Farerb wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: Since I believe that Emma probably has True Love with everybody, sure. It's what she is.

      Well, she doesn't have true love with her parents, that's why she never tried to wake them up from double sleeping curse.
      Proof? I'm pretty sure that was because she probably couldn't find a way to kiss two people at the same time.

      If anyone was in the Test of True Love, Emma would save them. She was even willing to defend Regina in season 2, despite the fact that Regina tried to kill her twice.

      I look it as Emma said. Emma is the Light that creates more Light. She lifts Hook up from Darkness. But Hook, meaning well and all, drags her slightly down. In the wait for Gideon, Hook suggests that Emma (and them) kill Gideon. Emma doesn't do so as she recognized with Regina it was a trap, plus, she acknoledge her role as that light that creates more light.

      Sort of why the title of the thrread is the way it is. I think Emma and Hook could be a fine couple, but Hook, whether trying hard to be good and determined or not, has a tendency to drag Emma down, whether directly "Then we kill him" or indirectly "I can't let you go, Hook".

      Then you must think the same of Snowing. Since Snow is much  more codependent on David than Emma is on Hook.

      I don't really get what you're putting down here. Hook is used as leverage against Emma and that makes him bad for her?

      Is Emma being confident in herself and her capabilities and being happy is "dragging her down"?

      Also lol is this thread still going?

      Yes, yes it is. I won't argue with someone who won't honestly discuss as my example was given.

      I think the same about a number of couples on the show, but this isn't that thread.

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    • TLK was cheapened by:

      - Ruby and Dorothy

      - Hades and Zelena

      - Hook's father and whoever gave him the kiss*

      In that order

      I admit the last one is very fairytale-like but the fact that Hook's father could hear the voice of woman he fell in love with,contradicts that the Sleeping Curse was supposed to be

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    • Okay I apologise if I misinterpreted your 'The we kill him' example, if it's from the finale I haven't seen it yet (although I think I've watched all the Hook scenes and I didn't find him saying that).

      ETA: I found the whole clip. Honestly I can see Hook's reasoning, it's him or Emma. And it's not like he knew it was a trap. Regina was the Magic Expert/Exposition Machiene for that sequence. And he acknowledged Regina was right.

      Hook does not drag Emma down. Using a mistake she made when one of her biggest fears was realised (Hook was dying) and she was under the influence of the Darkness, and imo it was a very sympathetic mistake, isn't good basis.

      But I stand by my point and will provide evidence of Hook making Emma more confident (she firmly stated in 6x20 that they will win the fight and Hook is constantly telling her how amazing she is-'You can overcome anything/You're amazing/I've yet to see you fail'. He makes Emma happier than most people can make her.

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      TLK was cheapened by:

      - Ruby and Dorothy

      - Hades and Zelena

      - Hook's father and whoever gave him the kiss*

      In that order

      I admit the last one is very fairytale-like but the fact that Hook's father could hear the voice of woman he fell in love with,contradicts that the Sleeping Curse was supposed to be

      I agree with Zades and Brennan/random lady but how did Ruby and Dorothy cheapen it? Their TLK situation was pretty much the exact same as Snowing's-"I've known you for a day and I'm in love with you." As much as I disliked how their story played out, it was no different to the likes of Snowing, Thomas/Ella or Ariel/Eric

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Now, I'm not coming from some angle to bash them into oblivion. I think there are pros and cons with their relationship. It's just that Hook indirectly drags Emma down (at times). It's not to say he doesn't try hard for her. To do a brief aside, it's like Rumple and Belle. Belle does only positive things for Rumple and his nature, while Rumple only really drags Belle down. Rumple supports her, offers some encouragement every now and again, but she's been knocked down a couple of points. Same wtih Robin and Regina, etc. (Likely due to the character dynamics between Emma, Regina, Rumple, and their props.)

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      8Rob wrote:
      TLK was cheapened by:- Ruby and Dorothy

      - Hades and Zelena

      - Hook's father and whoever gave him the kiss*

      In that order

      I admit the last one is very fairytale-like but the fact that Hook's father could hear the voice of woman he fell in love with,contradicts that the Sleeping Curse was supposed to be

      I agree with Zades and Brennan/random lady but how did Ruby and Dorothy cheapen it? Their TLK situation was pretty much the exact same as Snowing's-"I've known you for a day and I'm in love with you." As much as I disliked how their story played out, it was no different to the likes of Snowing, Thomas/Ella or Ariel/Eric

      Probably because of the fact that they fell in love in 2 hours lol

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Now, I'm not coming from some angle to bash them into oblivion. I think there are pros and cons with their relationship. It's just that Hook indirectly drags Emma down (at times). It's not to say he doesn't try hard for her. To do a brief aside, it's like Rumple and Belle. Belle does only positive things for Rumple and his nature, while Rumple only really drags Belle down. Rumple supports her, offers some encouragement every now and again, but she's been knocked down a couple of points. Same wtih Robin and Regina, etc. (Likely due to the character dynamics between Emma, Regina, Rumple, and their props.)

      Okay but here's the thing; he doesn't. Again, Emma made a single mistake, in the heat of the moment, that I think any other character would have done the same thing for. And she (massively) paid the price for her mistake and still remained to the end, brave and selfless.

      RumBelle is on a different level. It is nothing like CS (you could actually do an anti parallel of the two). As is OQ for that matter. 

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    • CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      8Rob wrote:
      TLK was cheapened by:- Ruby and Dorothy

      - Hades and Zelena

      - Hook's father and whoever gave him the kiss*

      In that order

      I admit the last one is very fairytale-like but the fact that Hook's father could hear the voice of woman he fell in love with,contradicts that the Sleeping Curse was supposed to be

      I agree with Zades and Brennan/random lady but how did Ruby and Dorothy cheapen it? Their TLK situation was pretty much the exact same as Snowing's-"I've known you for a day and I'm in love with you." As much as I disliked how their story played out, it was no different to the likes of Snowing, Thomas/Ella or Ariel/Eric
      Probably because of the fact that they fell in love in 2 hours lol

      And Snowing didn't? They walked around a forest for like a day. Ariel and Eric had one dance. Thomas and Ella had one dance. This is a universe where 'love at first sight' happens to be a thing.

      I don't mean to be "that person" but saying Ruby Slippers cheapened TLK when Snowing didn't has hints of homophobia. Their story had little difference to Snowing.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      8Rob wrote:
      TLK was cheapened by:- Ruby and Dorothy- Hades and Zelena

      - Hook's father and whoever gave him the kiss*

      In that order

      I admit the last one is very fairytale-like but the fact that Hook's father could hear the voice of woman he fell in love with,contradicts that the Sleeping Curse was supposed to be

      I agree with Zades and Brennan/random lady but how did Ruby and Dorothy cheapen it? Their TLK situation was pretty much the exact same as Snowing's-"I've known you for a day and I'm in love with you." As much as I disliked how their story played out, it was no different to the likes of Snowing, Thomas/Ella or Ariel/Eric
      Probably because of the fact that they fell in love in 2 hours lol
      And Snowing didn't? They walked around a forest for like a day. Ariel and Eric had one dance. Thomas and Ella had one dance. This is a universe where 'love at first sight' happens to be a thing.

      I don't mean to be "that person" but saying Ruby Slippers cheapened TLK when Snowing didn't has hints of homophobia. Their story had little difference to Snowing.

      Okay my bad. Let me be rephrased. I meant "the fact that they managed TLK in 2 hours". I don't think not even Snow and Charming could accomplish that. And why does someone who doesn't like Ruby&Dorothy's relationship get the title of "homophobic" everytime? Trust me, there are lots of relationships I don't like or care in this show. RubySlippers is just one of them.

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    • CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      8Rob wrote:
      TLK was cheapened by:- Ruby and Dorothy- Hades and Zelena

      - Hook's father and whoever gave him the kiss*

      In that order

      I admit the last one is very fairytale-like but the fact that Hook's father could hear the voice of woman he fell in love with,contradicts that the Sleeping Curse was supposed to be

      I agree with Zades and Brennan/random lady but how did Ruby and Dorothy cheapen it? Their TLK situation was pretty much the exact same as Snowing's-"I've known you for a day and I'm in love with you." As much as I disliked how their story played out, it was no different to the likes of Snowing, Thomas/Ella or Ariel/Eric
      Probably because of the fact that they fell in love in 2 hours lol
      And Snowing didn't? They walked around a forest for like a day. Ariel and Eric had one dance. Thomas and Ella had one dance. This is a universe where 'love at first sight' happens to be a thing.

      I don't mean to be "that person" but saying Ruby Slippers cheapened TLK when Snowing didn't has hints of homophobia. Their story had little difference to Snowing.

      Okay my bad. Let me be rephrased. I meant "the fact that they managed TLK in 2 hours". I don't think not even Snow and Charming could accomplish that. And why does someone who doesn't like Ruby&Dorothy's relationship get the title of "homophobic" everytime? Trust me, there are lots of relationships I don't like or care in this show. RubySlippers is just one of them.

      Because the majority of people arguing that RS's TLK happened too quickly comes from people who like or have no issue with Snowing. Surely if RS tarnished the vlue of TLK, Snowing did so in episode 1.

      Its not disliking or not shipping Ruby and Dorothy that is the problem (trust me I didnt like them either), it is holding double standards between straight couples and queer couples.

      Saying that RS tarnished TLK but Snowing did not, despite them having roughly the same situation. Hell you could even argue that RS were ahead of Snowing; Ruby and Dorothy had shared private, intimate information with one another by that stage.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      8Rob wrote:
      TLK was cheapened by:- Ruby and Dorothy- Hades and Zelena

      - Hook's father and whoever gave him the kiss*

      In that order

      I admit the last one is very fairytale-like but the fact that Hook's father could hear the voice of woman he fell in love with,contradicts that the Sleeping Curse was supposed to be

      I agree with Zades and Brennan/random lady but how did Ruby and Dorothy cheapen it? Their TLK situation was pretty much the exact same as Snowing's-"I've known you for a day and I'm in love with you." As much as I disliked how their story played out, it was no different to the likes of Snowing, Thomas/Ella or Ariel/Eric
      Probably because of the fact that they fell in love in 2 hours lol
      And Snowing didn't? They walked around a forest for like a day. Ariel and Eric had one dance. Thomas and Ella had one dance. This is a universe where 'love at first sight' happens to be a thing.

      I don't mean to be "that person" but saying Ruby Slippers cheapened TLK when Snowing didn't has hints of homophobia. Their story had little difference to Snowing.

      What are you talking about?

      Snow/Charming true love was born the first time they met in 6x07

      Then they officially met in Snow Falls/Snow Drifts. They fought the trolls together. Then Charming helped Abigail to get Frederick back so he could be free to be with Snow. Then Snow was captured and Charming and Red went to save her. Then Charming saved Snow from having her heart corrupted by killing the Evil Queen due to the potion she took from Rumple. Then Charming was about to be executed and Snow and the dwarves went to save them to King George's castle. Then Snow made a sacrife and ate the Apple to save Charming's life. And then Charming fought Maleficent in dragon form for Snow, so get back with her and save her from the Sleeping Curse. And then just then, they had their TLK

      That took months and you said "they walked in the forest for like a day"?????

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      8Rob wrote:
      TLK was cheapened by:- Ruby and Dorothy- Hades and Zelena- Hook's father and whoever gave him the kiss*

      In that order

      I admit the last one is very fairytale-like but the fact that Hook's father could hear the voice of woman he fell in love with,contradicts that the Sleeping Curse was supposed to be

      I agree with Zades and Brennan/random lady but how did Ruby and Dorothy cheapen it? Their TLK situation was pretty much the exact same as Snowing's-"I've known you for a day and I'm in love with you." As much as I disliked how their story played out, it was no different to the likes of Snowing, Thomas/Ella or Ariel/Eric
      Probably because of the fact that they fell in love in 2 hours lol
      And Snowing didn't? They walked around a forest for like a day. Ariel and Eric had one dance. Thomas and Ella had one dance. This is a universe where 'love at first sight' happens to be a thing.

      I don't mean to be "that person" but saying Ruby Slippers cheapened TLK when Snowing didn't has hints of homophobia. Their story had little difference to Snowing.

      What are you talking about?

      Snow/Charming true love was born the first time they met in 6x07

      Then they officially met in Snow Falls/Snow Drifts. They fought the trolls together. Then Charming helped Abigail to get Frederick back so he could be free to be with Snow. Then Snow was captured and Charming and Red went to save her. Then Charming saved Snow from having her heart corrupted by killing the Evil Queen due to the potion she took from Rumple. Then Charming was about to be executed and Snow and the dwarves went to save them to King George's castle. Then Snow made a sacrife and ate the Apple to save Charming's life. And then Charming fought Maleficent in dragon form for Snow, so get back with her and save her from the Sleeping Curse. And then just then, they had their TLK

      That took months and you said "they walked in the forest for like a day"?????

      Yes but essentially, by the time their TLK happened, they had known one another/been in each other's company for about a day. Everything else happened apart from each other. 

      David decided he would find her and convince her they belong together after knowing her for like a day and tried TLK on her after one day.

      Nothing necessarily wrong with that, the Snowing love story was one of my favourite thigns about the show in s1 (still is). The lack of realism isn't the problem (none of these love stories are realistic). Its saying that RS didn't earn TLK because they only knew each other for a day but not saying the same for Snowing.

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    • hook isn't a bad person in the whole show. I mean, no one gave him a second chance besides Emma and somewhat snow and charming. If you look at all the shows, hook has tried to help a lot of people and change his ways. He almost died trying to protect Henry and Emma. When one of the shows showed hooks heart, his heart had some black in it, which means he isn't that bad. Henry was upset that hook and Emma were together, but that never showed any proof that Henry did not at all trust hook. I think he mostly helped Henry instead of hurting Henry.

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    • To tell the truth, I haven't really been watching OUAT lately, I've seen clips on youtube and the occasional episode. But one way I think the writers could've gone with the show is to say that even if a relationship is 'True Love' it can still be unhealthy for the people involved, including their friends and family.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Ace1923 wrote:
      To tell the truth, I haven't really been watching OUAT lately, I've seen clips on youtube and the occasional episode. But one way I think the writers could've gone with the show is to say that even if a relationship is 'True Love' it can still be unhealthy for the people involved, including their friends and family.

      Which is what they could have (and should and hvae and looked like they were going to) done with RumBelle. In 6A they repeatadely hammered home how toxic this relationship was, though to be fair we know they are no longer "true love". It is still as you say, unhealthy for Belle and her faily and friends.

      Regal Believer is also a perfect example of an unhealthy relationship that is portrayed as True Love but the frustrating thing is that the wrtiers don't seem to realise how unhealthy it is. It is once again as you said, unhealthy for Henry, arguably Regina and Henry's family (I'd say friends but he doesn't seem to have any)

      Zades! Unhealthy relationship that is True Love.

      This doesn't apply to CS as, as we seem to have successfully shown, they are probably the healthiest relationship on the show aside from Snowing.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Ace1923 wrote:
      To tell the truth, I haven't really been watching OUAT lately, I've seen clips on youtube and the occasional episode. But one way I think the writers could've gone with the show is to say that even if a relationship is 'True Love' it can still be unhealthy for the people involved, including their friends and family.
      Which is what they could have (and should and hvae and looked like they were going to) done with RumBelle. In 6A they repeatadely hammered home how toxic this relationship was, though to be fair we know they are no longer "true love". It is still as you say, unhealthy for Belle and her faily and friends.

      Regal Believer is also a perfect example of an unhealthy relationship that is portrayed as True Love but the frustrating thing is that the wrtiers don't seem to realise how unhealthy it is. It is once again as you said, unhealthy for Henry, arguably Regina and Henry's family (I'd say friends but he doesn't seem to have any)

      Zades! Unhealthy relationship that is True Love.

      This doesn't apply to CS as, as we seem to have successfully shown, they are probably the healthiest relationship on the show aside from Snowing.

      You didn't happen to create a different user, just so you could drag up a long inactive thread, just so you could defend Captain Swan more, did you?

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      You didn't happen to create a different user, just so you could drag up a long inactive thread, just so you could defend Captain Swan more, did you?

      Lol, I think it may just be a coincedence.

      However to address the points, it's all about framing. Saying Regal Believer is unhealthy is pretty nonsensical as they have had a great relationship since season 3.

      Timeline: Regian used and lied actively to Henry for a few months (September to March), she tried to change for him, backslide into bad habits, then from that point forward recognized how important Henry was to her.

      I know some would point to "Hey, Regina told Henry she didn't want to see him!" However, I guess they didn't get the narrative contrast that was going on because practically minutes later Henry comes home and Regina welcomes him in happily.

      I could frame CS as Hook trying to kill/indirectly kill and betray Emma for months. However, I don't use that any more than Regina's lying to Henry because the relationship got better.

      Basically, it appears to simply be favoritism. It's favoritism/hatred + "Look at what they did in the past", which would pretty much condemn every couple and relationship on the show.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Ace1923 wrote:
      To tell the truth, I haven't really been watching OUAT lately, I've seen clips on youtube and the occasional episode. But one way I think the writers could've gone with the show is to say that even if a relationship is 'True Love' it can still be unhealthy for the people involved, including their friends and family.
      Which is what they could have (and should and hvae and looked like they were going to) done with RumBelle. In 6A they repeatadely hammered home how toxic this relationship was, though to be fair we know they are no longer "true love". It is still as you say, unhealthy for Belle and her faily and friends.

      Regal Believer is also a perfect example of an unhealthy relationship that is portrayed as True Love but the frustrating thing is that the wrtiers don't seem to realise how unhealthy it is. It is once again as you said, unhealthy for Henry, arguably Regina and Henry's family (I'd say friends but he doesn't seem to have any)

      Zades! Unhealthy relationship that is True Love.

      This doesn't apply to CS as, as we seem to have successfully shown, they are probably the healthiest relationship on the show aside from Snowing.

      You didn't happen to create a different user, just so you could drag up a long inactive thread, just so you could defend Captain Swan more, did you?

      Look my dude I may be a sad pathetic little woman but I'm not that pathetic yeesh.

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