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  • For me, Broken Heart confirmed this. This is the problem when you put all your eggs in one basket. Hook was solely good because of his "love" or rather obsession with Emma (and because he'd never truly get his revenge.) Why do I think so?

    Nimue has never stayed from her desire for revenge and has contually gone with it. Once she had the power, she did as she said. She destroyed the threat (Vortigan) and would give power and things to those who needed it (which is like Rumple teaching others magic and making deals). Her love for Merlin never swayed.

    Rumple gained the power and he was finally able to defend himself and enact his anger towards those who he felt wronged him. He had beacons of love for Bae and Belle.

    Emma still loved Henry and Hook and pretty much everyone else to a certian degree. She was simply walling herself up again to try to fix her mistakes.

    All these DOs are simply themselves with added liberty and a slight addition to their worse traits.

    Hook seems to have no veil of love around him and used Emma and hurted Emma. Even Rumple didn't verbally crush Belle like that. Nor Nimue to Merlin. Or even Emma to Henry and Hook. Does he even truly love Emma? Or is he confusing it with obsession? Why would he say such mean things? And no, he isn't possessed Hook fans, then you'd have to add that to Rumple, Nimue and Emma.

    I think that he was sort of redeeming himself in  season 4, but he knew he was a villain still. He may have helped Ursula, but he was also quick to point a gun at her head! The woman who he had wronged, he was going to kill or at least threatened. No matter how many times Emma tried to call Hook a hero, he knew it wasn't true. No matter how lovey-dovey they are, that doesn't relate to redemption.

    I know there's often a train of thought about Regina's redemption not existing and Rumple's not existing, but then I will say despite shippers and fans alike, that Hook's never existed except in miniscule and this episode proves that. He has as much "tallies in the redemption column" as Regina and possibly Rumple.

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    • Hook fell in love with Emma, he wanted to better himself for her. Which was sort of successful, if Emma or the others were nearby to remind him to be good. He made awful mistakes and he knew that he was at fault. He has been a very cruel man for centuries, Rumple was the Dark One for centuries, Regina has been the Evil Queen for years, she has changed, Rumple is changing, but Hook is not as strong as Regina or Rumple.

      Now he is the Dark One, the opportunity of vengeance is right in front of him. I don't think the darkness changes you at all. If Hook had the dagger in season four, he would immediately have gone after Gold, now he has magic, he is going after Rumple too. The reason that Hook did what he did is not because he is being possessed by the darkness, but because darkness gives him the opportunity and he is to weak to resist.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Hook seems to have no veil of love around him and used Emma and hurted Emma. Even Rumple didn't verbally crush Belle like that. Nor Nimue to Merlin. Or even Emma to Henry and Hook. Does he even truly love Emma? Or is he confusing it with obsession? Why would he say such mean things? And no, he isn't possessed Hook fans, then you'd have to add that to Rumple, Nimue and Emma.

      Seriously.... Dark Hook told Emma, what she needed to hear!

      Similar to Regina, Emma is the only one standing in the way of her happiness. She is too afraid to loose the people she loves, but she is the one who pushes them away. A prime example, was how she treated everyone during the 3.B arc. Emma refused to make the necessary sacrifice in Camelot, because of her "love" for Hook. If she truly loved him, she would have honored his dying wishes. All Hook is doing, is forcing Emma's hand.... forcing her to let him die.

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    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:

      Hook seems to have no veil of love around him and used Emma and hurted Emma. Even Rumple didn't verbally crush Belle like that. Nor Nimue to Merlin. Or even Emma to Henry and Hook. Does he even truly love Emma? Or is he confusing it with obsession? Why would he say such mean things? And no, he isn't possessed Hook fans, then you'd have to add that to Rumple, Nimue and Emma.

      Seriously.... Dark Hook told Emma, what she needed to hear!

      Similar to Regina, Emma is the only one standing in the way of her happiness. She is too afraid to loose the people she loves, but she is the one who pushes them away. A prime example, was how she treated everyone during the 3.B arc. Emma refused to make the necessary sacrifice in Camelot, because of her "love" for Hook. If she truly loved him, she would have honored his dying wishes. All Hook is doing, is forcing Emma's hand.... forcing her to let him die.

      Of course, Emma needed some of that, but not all the hurtful comments.

      We dont know what Hook is trying to do besides hurt Emma.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Of course, Emma needed some of that, but not all the hurtful comments.

      What hurtful comments?

      Emma was the only one who hurt anyone this season. She failed everyone in Camelot, but made them believe they failed her. She pushed everyone away, because she wanted to fix her mistakes. By doing that, she made the problem worse. Emma wiped everyone's memories, hoping that Hook would still be in love her. We saw that it did not work, as he could see right through the Dark Swan. He refused to be in a relationship with her, several times. This was not the future Hook wanted, but Emma chose the darkest path. 

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    • Eskaver
      Eskaver removed this reply because:
      offtopic
      16:16, November 30, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Eskaver
      Eskaver removed this reply because:
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      16:16, November 30, 2015
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    • Pardon me, this thread is about Hook. Feel free to create an Emma thread. All posts otherwise will be deleted.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      F

      Hook seems to have no veil of love around him and used Emma and hurted Emma. Even Rumple didn't verbally crush Belle like that. Nor Nimue to Merlin. Or even Emma to Henry and Hook. Does he even truly love Emma? Or is he confusing it with obsession? Why would he say such mean things?


      Not really an apt comparison since Merlin never betrayed Nimue and Belle had always trusted Rumple unconditionally up until she found out that he lied to her.

      Perhaps Hook fell as quickly and as deeply as he did because he felt betrayed by the woman he loved above all else. If the other Dark Ones has experienced similar betrayal from their loved ones, maybe they would have ended up the same way?

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    • Interestingly, Hook even delivers some of the information in his lines. He describes himself as being a lovesick puppy. HE was just that for Emma. He was so desparate for love, he changed to please her. Once she did something he didn't like, he felt betrayed and ended things with her.

      That's a sign that Hook wasn't good for the right reasons. He was just like Regina and Rumple who tried to be good for the rewards you get, rather than a more valid reason. Hook was always shown to have an interest in Emma and that's why he turned his ship around. To save her, not her family or the town. He childishly fought over her with his "step" son Bae, and when he died, he scooped up the remains of Emma's love and went on from there.

      I think he was slowly turning good outside of Emma, as he typically wasn't all that bad, but he still had that brimming darkenss inside of him and he knew it.

      So, he was never Killywilkins the Good. Just a lovesick man that lied on a thin string. He pretty mcuh showed little progress. Infatuated with Emma at the beanstalk, got betrayed by Emma, denounce Emma. Hook was infatuated by Emma in Camelot, Emma betrayed him by making him the DO, he denounces Emma.

      I would say that his rage may be amplified a little, but still doesn't change the fact it's pretty much the same.

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    • Hook is angry, because Emma took control over his life. That is why he felt so betrayed. It was not her choice to make, and she did it anyway.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Interestingly, Hook even delivers some of the information in his lines. He describes himself as being a lovesick puppy.

      If he was trying to hurt Emma by saying mean things, then you obviously can't take what he says at face value.

      HE was just that for Emma. He was so desparate for love, he changed to please her. Once she did something he didn't like, he felt betrayed and ended things with her.

      That's a little too simplistic a way of looking at it. Emma did many things as the DO that Hook didn't like and yet he stood by her all the way.

      You also can't deny he was good for Emma in various ways. He helped her regain her self-confidence during that time travel trip and to gain the courage to stop running away. After Emma became the DO, Hook helped her grow emotionally by helping her tear down her walls and made her realize there is no need to be afraid of the future.

      That's a sign that Hook wasn't good for the right reasons. He was just like Regina and Rumple who tried to be good for the rewards you get, rather than a more valid reason.

      What rewards would Regina have gotten for saving Marian from the snow monster? Especially since everyone else was unconscious at that time and no one would know if she let Marian die. What rewards would she have gotten from telling Robin to take Marian across the town line to save her from the Snow Queen's curse?

      Hook was always shown to have an interest in Emma and that's why he turned his ship around. To save her, not her family or the town. He childishly fought over her with his "step" son Bae, and when he died, he scooped up the remains of Emma's love and went on from there.

      Even if what you say is true, most people aren't self-sacrificing enough to risk their lives for total strangers. So even if Hook isn't a hero by Snow/Charming standards, at least he was on the path to becoming a decent person. As to whether Hook would become a hero eventually for his own sake and not Emma's, the show hasn't really explored that far yet. But as much as we can't say that Hook would be good without Emma, we also cannot say he won't be since its never been put to the the test yet.

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    • Toma Cre wrote: As to whether Hook would become a hero eventually for his own sake and not Emma's, the show hasn't really explored that far yet. But as much as we can't say that Hook would be good without Emma, we also cannot say he won't be since its never been put to the the test yet.

      It is very possible that being turned into a Dark One, is Hook's final test to becoming a true hero.

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    • What rewards did they get? I wasn't talking about season 4, duh. I was talking abou early on in their redmeption.

      Am I talking about Hook's beneficial relationship with Emma? Not really. They do great together, but Emma's a "good" person without Hook. Hook isn't the same without Emma. He's a bit indifferent, but let's take the show as an example.

      Hook didn't retunr to his old life because of hios love for Emma, but he still wasn't back to doing good as he supposedly let Eric die alone on an island and didn't help Ariel.

      So, there's the precedent and if that changes, we'll have to wait and see.

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    • I agree with the Op for the most part though I believe Rumple is better than Hook and Regina combined despite what he's done.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      What rewards did they get? I wasn't talking about season 4, duh. I was talking abou early on in their redmeption.

      And I am supposed to know that how?

      Am I talking about Hook's beneficial relationship with Emma? Not really. They do great together, but Emma's a "good" person without Hook. Hook isn't the same without Emma. He's a bit indifferent, but let's take the show as an example.

      Hook didn't retunr to his old life because of hios love for Emma, but he still wasn't back to doing good as he supposedly let Eric die alone on an island and didn't help Ariel.

      As I have mentioned before, there is a difference between being just a decent, normal person and a hero. Hook didn't really have an obligation to give up his prized ship for a total stranger, just like Elsa didn't have an obligation to give up her only clue to find Anna to save Storybrooke. And if you think about it, what Elsa did was much worse - risking an entire town vs risking one person's life. Yet she is still considered a hero by OUaT standards.

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    • So even if Hook isn't a hero by Snow/Charming standards, at least he was on the path to becoming a decent person.


      Snow and Charming aren't heroes by their standards. No one is. Why should Hook? Why does this show demand that the protagonists be these shining heroes? Why can't they be flawed individuals? Once these "heroes" realize that they are capable of doing terrible things - and admit it - they can learn to find some kind of balance in their lives.

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    • Eskaver wrote: Hook seems to have no veil of love around him and used Emma and hurt Emma. Even Rumple didn't verbally crush Belle like that. Nor Nimue to Merlin. Or even Emma to Henry and Hook.

      Verbally? Maybe not. But have you forgotten what Rumple did to Belle? And what Nimue did to Merlin? Gold deceived and lied to Belle again and again, and broke her trust, which is far worse than lashing out at someone verbally. And Nimue trapped Merlin inside a tree, where he was stuck for hundreds of years, which is a fate far worse than death.

      As for what Hook said to Emma: It is completely understandable. She went against his wishes, and transformed him into the thing he hated most. I think most of us would have reacted the same way and said similar things, if we were in the same situation.

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    • Nightlily wrote:

      As for what Hook said to Emma: It is completely understandable. She went against his wishes, and transformed him into the thing he hated most. I think most of us would have reacted the same way and said similar things, if we were in the same situation.

      Not only that.... but Hook finally told her the truth, about how he felt.

      Emma needed to hear, that she hurts her loved ones by pushing them away. Hook has always been so patient with her, and most of the time ended up verbally abused, because of her walls. This was even before they started dating, and were just friends. I cannot even count the amount of times Hook stood in silence, as Emma would make sarcastic comments about him. It is called, a lover's quarrel for a reason.... everything he said, was long overdue. 

      Also, nothing Dark Hook says, can be taken at face value. Dark Ones lie, Dark Ones trick. Most importantly, they always have an ulterior motive. For Rumplestiltskin, it was reuniting with his son. For Emma, it was trying to undo what she did to Hook. For Hook, it appears to be vengeance. The question is on whom.... Rumplestiltskin or the Darkness itself? 

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    • Also, nothing Dark Hook says, can be taken at face value. Dark Ones lie, Dark Ones trick.


      So do everyone else. And like "Dark Ones", everyone else will have an ulterior motive. There is nothing special about that.


      They do great together, but Emma's a "good" person without Hook.

      Emma was no more a "good" person than Hook . . . even before they had met. Emma was already corrupted before the show started, due to her past as a thief, and her willingness to maintain possession of a stolen vehicle without any remorse. Like Hook and everyone else, she is more than capable of being a monster. She had already proved that with her confrontations with Cruella and Lily.

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    • CTrent29 wrote:
      Also, nothing Dark Hook says, can be taken at face value. Dark Ones lie, Dark Ones trick.

      So do everyone else. And like "Dark Ones", everyone else will have an ulterior motive. There is nothing special about that.

      That you, for taking that statement out of context. You clearly did not see my point, about who the target of Dark Hook's vengeance might be.

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    • I think you're reading too much into this. If Hook was playing for the heroes side, he might have been pretended to be mad at Emma. However the things he said to her just crossed a line and I don't thing he would have said those things if it had been just an act.

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    • Farerb wrote: However the things he said to her just crossed a line and I don't thing he would have said those things if it had been just an act.

      Couples can have arguments and say horrible things out of anger, but that does not change how they feel about each other.

      Emma has been using her walls, to push all her loved ones (especially Hook) away for a long time. She claims to be protecting herself, but in turn she hurts those around her. Hook has always been patient and supportive of Emma, but she was always scared of the future. She only told him "I love you", because she thought she would never see him again. She could not light the Promethean Spark, because she was scared of moving in with him. Hook invested a lot into the relationship, and Emma still has tons of walls and fears.... that has got to be frustrating for a guy!

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    • Whereas other dark ones (or evil characters in general) slowly fade into the darkness until they become one with it, Hook plunged in it. 

      The combined betrayal by Emma, his dark past and his need for revenge basically brought out the worst in himself. 

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    • What is this determination to paint Hook as this one-dimensional force of evil?  I feel as if I'm in the middle of some propaganda campaign.


      Any of these people can be monsters.  There's nothing special about Hook.  Is it really that hard to consider the possibility that it is very easy for anyone to give in to become evil?   Emma had nearly killed Merida not long after she became the "Dark One".  And she didn't stop herself on her own accord.  She couldn't even stop herself from trying to kill Lily.  It took a good deal of effort on Regina's part to stop her.  It didn't take Rumpelstiltskin long to commit homicide after he turned.  Heck, he became "the Dark One" in the first place in an act of murder.  The fact that Zoso emotionally manipulated him doesn't give him an out.

      There is nothing special about Hook's potential for evil, as far as I'm concerned.  If this is some convoluted campaign to convince everyone that he is unworthy of Emma, I'm no buying it.  I'm not into painting characters with some one-dimensional, black-and-white morality.

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    • CTrent29 wrote:

      There is nothing special about Hook's potential for evil, as far as I'm concerned.  If this is some convoluted campaign to convince everyone that he is unworthy of Emma, I'm no buying it.  I'm not into painting characters with some one-dimensional, black-and-white morality.

      Agreed....

      It is like some fans forgot about everything that happened, before Hook learned that Emma turned him into a Dark One. That includes what was happening in Storybrooke. Hook might not have known that he was a Dark One, but he was in control of himself. Excalibur could not control him, while it was in the stone. Heck.... that was why he put the sword back there, in the first place. 

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
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