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  • Both movies have been said by Eddie and Adam to be canon to the show's universe. That's not the point of discussion for this thread, it's a confirmed fact.

    My suggestion is that similar to the "For events occuring before/after _________, see _______." statements we have on our main characters' pages, we have a statement like "For events occuring before <insert debut episode here>, see Frozen." for the Frozen characters and "For events occuring before The Bear King, see Brave." (Since The Bear King will be the earliest point we see the Brave characters in, timeline-wise.)

    That way, we wouldn't have to write out copy/paste summaries of the movies in every character's description, and if by some horrible misfortune someone hasn't seen either movie, they can just click the link and read about the character's previous history.

    Thoughts? It's just a sentence, so it shouldn't be that much trouble. If it's given the go ahead, I'll even do it myself to save everyone the trouble.

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    • Let's be precised. The events of the films are canon, but not the films. Meaning all events of the film happened, but maybe not exactly like it is depicted in the Disney film. For exemple, Elsa singing Let It Go is not canon in OUAT. :)

      I agree on adding something on the page. But not a link to the film pages. The best thing that we should do, would be to rewatch all episodes and to add all events from the films that are mentioned in-show. It would much more professional to me :)

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    • Hmm...

      Both of you raise very good points.

      I'm going to hold out on posting an opinion until more people have chimed in. I'd like to see what other people come up with either for or against this and/or any other ideas that come up/ways to do something like this.

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    • I agree with Lady Junky. It doesn't seem right to add the films to the characters' pages since they are not really a part of the show (I don't mean canon wise, I mean production wise). I thinks it's better to describe the events said by the characters on the show and nothing more.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      Let's be precised. The events of the films are canon, but not the films. Meaning all events of the film happened, but maybe not exactly like it is depicted in the Disney film. For exemple, Elsa singing Let It Go is not canon in OUAT. :)

      I agree on adding something on the page. But not a link to the film pages. The best thing that we should do, would be to rewatch all episodes and to add all events from the films that are mentioned in-show. It would much more professional to me :)

      Let It Go may not be canon, but Love Is An Open Door sure is. :P

      No, in all honesty, Frozen in the Once world seems to be missing the musical numbers and Olaf (he is directly referenced by Elsa, although not by name, so it's possible he does exist, but he's just not in Arendelle? The film does imply he wanted to see the world in summer, so maybe he went traveling?). And then there's the matter of Queen Idun (who does go unnamed on-screen in Frozen, aside from some runes on her grave marker) being renamed Gerda.

      But Brave was explicitly said to be 100% canon during pre-season 5 press interviews. The only thing that contradicts the movie so far is the Spell of Mor'du being a) named and b) a potion. But both of those can easily be explained away. The Sleeping Curse can be made as a potion (Maleficent) or inserted into food (Regina), so the Spell of Mor'du could be the same way. And it's been 10 years since the movie, Merida's probably called it that in her head all those years since the Spell originated with Mor'du.

      I do like the idea of only bringing up the past events mentioned in the episodes, however. Like Anna saying in "White Out" that she almost died to save Elsa, or saying in "Fall" that she sang with Hans. Or Elsa asking Ingrid if she's ever made a snowman come to life as well (referencing Olaf and Marshmallow), and replying that she has made an ice palace. That way we can be sure that what we write is canon.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Let's be precised. The events of the films are canon, but not the films. Meaning all events of the film happened, but maybe not exactly like it is depicted in the Disney film. For exemple, Elsa singing Let It Go is not canon in OUAT. :)

      I agree on adding something on the page. But not a link to the film pages. The best thing that we should do, would be to rewatch all episodes and to add all events from the films that are mentioned in-show. It would much more professional to me :)

      Let It Go may not be canon, but Love Is An Open Door sure is. :P

      No, in all honesty, Frozen in the Once world seems to be missing the musical numbers and Olaf (he is directly referenced by Elsa, although not by name, so it's possible he does exist, but he's just not in Arendelle? The film does imply he wanted to see the world in summer, so maybe he went traveling?). And then there's the matter of Queen Idun (who does go unnamed on-screen in Frozen, aside from some runes on her grave marker) being renamed Gerda.

      But Brave was explicitly said to be 100% canon during pre-season 5 press interviews. The only thing that contradicts the movie so far is the Spell of Mor'du being a) named and b) a potion. But both of those can easily be explained away. The Sleeping Curse can be made as a potion (Maleficent) or inserted into food (Regina), so the Spell of Mor'du could be the same way. And it's been 10 years since the movie, Merida's probably called it that in her head all those years since the Spell originated with Mor'du.

      I do like the idea of only bringing up the past events mentioned in the episodes, however. Like Anna saying in "White Out" that she almost died to save Elsa, or saying in "Fall" that she sang with Hans. Or Elsa asking Ingrid if she's ever made a snowman come to life as well (referencing Olaf and Marshmallow), and replying that she has made an ice palace. That way we can be sure that what we write is canon.

      Brave is not 100% canon. The Hill of Stones is not at DunBroch and the wisps are from the EF, not DunBroch :)

      Then, Anna and Hans sang a song yeah. But is it confirmed to be "Love Is An Open Door"? It could be Bieber's Baby from what we know :P

      You see the problem? xD It happened, but how? Not necessary sure ^^

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Let's be precised. The events of the films are canon, but not the films. Meaning all events of the film happened, but maybe not exactly like it is depicted in the Disney film. For exemple, Elsa singing Let It Go is not canon in OUAT. :)

      I agree on adding something on the page. But not a link to the film pages. The best thing that we should do, would be to rewatch all episodes and to add all events from the films that are mentioned in-show. It would much more professional to me :)

      Let It Go may not be canon, but Love Is An Open Door sure is. :P

      No, in all honesty, Frozen in the Once world seems to be missing the musical numbers and Olaf (he is directly referenced by Elsa, although not by name, so it's possible he does exist, but he's just not in Arendelle? The film does imply he wanted to see the world in summer, so maybe he went traveling?). And then there's the matter of Queen Idun (who does go unnamed on-screen in Frozen, aside from some runes on her grave marker) being renamed Gerda.

      But Brave was explicitly said to be 100% canon during pre-season 5 press interviews. The only thing that contradicts the movie so far is the Spell of Mor'du being a) named and b) a potion. But both of those can easily be explained away. The Sleeping Curse can be made as a potion (Maleficent) or inserted into food (Regina), so the Spell of Mor'du could be the same way. And it's been 10 years since the movie, Merida's probably called it that in her head all those years since the Spell originated with Mor'du.

      I do like the idea of only bringing up the past events mentioned in the episodes, however. Like Anna saying in "White Out" that she almost died to save Elsa, or saying in "Fall" that she sang with Hans. Or Elsa asking Ingrid if she's ever made a snowman come to life as well (referencing Olaf and Marshmallow), and replying that she has made an ice palace. That way we can be sure that what we write is canon.

      Brave is not 100% canon. The Hill of Stones is not at DunBroch and the wisps are from the EF, not DunBroch :)

      Then, Anna and Hans sang a song yeah. But is it confirmed to be "Love Is An Open Door"? It could be Bieber's Baby from what we know :P

      You see the problem? xD It happened, but how? Not necessary sure ^^

      Also, the way the spell works is really different from the Movie. Elinor's transformation was gradual while Merida's was instant. In addition, the only way to break the spell is to "mend the bond" in the film while a bag of convenient unexplained magic does that on the show.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Let's be precised. The events of the films are canon, but not the films. Meaning all events of the film happened, but maybe not exactly like it is depicted in the Disney film. For exemple, Elsa singing Let It Go is not canon in OUAT. :)

      I agree on adding something on the page. But not a link to the film pages. The best thing that we should do, would be to rewatch all episodes and to add all events from the films that are mentioned in-show. It would much more professional to me :)

      Let It Go may not be canon, but Love Is An Open Door sure is. :P

      No, in all honesty, Frozen in the Once world seems to be missing the musical numbers and Olaf (he is directly referenced by Elsa, although not by name, so it's possible he does exist, but he's just not in Arendelle? The film does imply he wanted to see the world in summer, so maybe he went traveling?). And then there's the matter of Queen Idun (who does go unnamed on-screen in Frozen, aside from some runes on her grave marker) being renamed Gerda.

      But Brave was explicitly said to be 100% canon during pre-season 5 press interviews. The only thing that contradicts the movie so far is the Spell of Mor'du being a) named and b) a potion. But both of those can easily be explained away. The Sleeping Curse can be made as a potion (Maleficent) or inserted into food (Regina), so the Spell of Mor'du could be the same way. And it's been 10 years since the movie, Merida's probably called it that in her head all those years since the Spell originated with Mor'du.

      I do like the idea of only bringing up the past events mentioned in the episodes, however. Like Anna saying in "White Out" that she almost died to save Elsa, or saying in "Fall" that she sang with Hans. Or Elsa asking Ingrid if she's ever made a snowman come to life as well (referencing Olaf and Marshmallow), and replying that she has made an ice palace. That way we can be sure that what we write is canon.

      Brave is not 100% canon. The Hill of Stones is not at DunBroch and the wisps are from the EF, not DunBroch :)

      Then, Anna and Hans sang a song yeah. But is it confirmed to be "Love Is An Open Door"? It could be Bieber's Baby from what we know :P

      You see the problem? xD It happened, but how? Not necessary sure ^^

      The Hill of Stones was never stated to be in DunBroch's lands in the movie. Merida was able to reach it after a few hours of riding, however. So yeah, I'll agree that is a big hole against the movie since DunBroch is an island in Once.

      As for the song... I think I want to believe it was Britney Spears' "Toxic", given how their relationship ended. LOL

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    • Farerb wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Let's be precised. The events of the films are canon, but not the films. Meaning all events of the film happened, but maybe not exactly like it is depicted in the Disney film. For exemple, Elsa singing Let It Go is not canon in OUAT. :)

      I agree on adding something on the page. But not a link to the film pages. The best thing that we should do, would be to rewatch all episodes and to add all events from the films that are mentioned in-show. It would much more professional to me :)

      Let It Go may not be canon, but Love Is An Open Door sure is. :P

      No, in all honesty, Frozen in the Once world seems to be missing the musical numbers and Olaf (he is directly referenced by Elsa, although not by name, so it's possible he does exist, but he's just not in Arendelle? The film does imply he wanted to see the world in summer, so maybe he went traveling?). And then there's the matter of Queen Idun (who does go unnamed on-screen in Frozen, aside from some runes on her grave marker) being renamed Gerda.

      But Brave was explicitly said to be 100% canon during pre-season 5 press interviews. The only thing that contradicts the movie so far is the Spell of Mor'du being a) named and b) a potion. But both of those can easily be explained away. The Sleeping Curse can be made as a potion (Maleficent) or inserted into food (Regina), so the Spell of Mor'du could be the same way. And it's been 10 years since the movie, Merida's probably called it that in her head all those years since the Spell originated with Mor'du.

      I do like the idea of only bringing up the past events mentioned in the episodes, however. Like Anna saying in "White Out" that she almost died to save Elsa, or saying in "Fall" that she sang with Hans. Or Elsa asking Ingrid if she's ever made a snowman come to life as well (referencing Olaf and Marshmallow), and replying that she has made an ice palace. That way we can be sure that what we write is canon.

      Brave is not 100% canon. The Hill of Stones is not at DunBroch and the wisps are from the EF, not DunBroch :)

      Then, Anna and Hans sang a song yeah. But is it confirmed to be "Love Is An Open Door"? It could be Bieber's Baby from what we know :P

      You see the problem? xD It happened, but how? Not necessary sure ^^

      Also, the way the spell works is really different from the Movie. Elinor's transformation was gradual while Merida's was instant. In addition, the only way to break the spell is to "mend the bond" in the film while a bag of convenient unexplained magic does that on the show.

      It could be because Elinor was digesting the cake, while Merida's body absorbed the pure potion more rapidly (liquids digest faster than solids).

      And I might have to rewatch the movie, but it's never stated to be the only way to break the curse. Plus, in Brave, only the wisps and the witch had magic. No one else had access to it, so who knows what else could've broken it?

      Meanwhile, Once has shown plenty of transformations before, all from different magical techniques. It does make sense that someone would develop a way to neutralize those transformations.

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    • I agree with Lady, only include what we know from the show happened.

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      I agree with Lady, only include what we know from the show happened.

      Ok, well, I'll rewatch the Frozen arc and Camelot arc during the winter hiatus and write down whatever I find.

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    • This is tricky. While the films are more or less canon, there have been small changes made (one of the ones that hasen't been noted so far is that Merida does not destroy her clothes when she transformed and is still wearing them when she transforms back), and obviously Arendelle and DunBroch are parts of FTL. But at the same time, then never show the events of the movie, because all the main plot points of them are assumed to have happened. Seriously, it doesn't work any other way. So technically to get the most out of the viewing experience, you would want to watch the film, or at least read a plot summary. So I think we could say something like "The events that happened in this part of the timeline are assumed to be the same as seen in the movie Frozen/Brave." Or something to that effect. Because just listing the things we got references to is going to be both disjointed and not really explain things that we know had to have happened.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      This is tricky. While the films are more or less canon, there have been small changes made (one of the ones that hasen't been noted so far is that Merida does not destroy her clothes when she transformed and is still wearing them when she transforms back), and obviously Arendelle and DunBroch are parts of FTL. But at the same time, then never show the events of the movie, because all the main plot points of them are assumed to have happened. Seriously, it doesn't work any other way. So technically to get the most out of the viewing experience, you would want to watch the film, or at least read a plot summary. So I think we could say something like "The events that happened in this part of the timeline are assumed to be the same as seen in the movie Frozen/Brave." Or something to that effect. Because just listing the things we got references to is going to be both disjointed and not really explain things that we know had to have happened.

      I can agree with this.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      This is tricky. While the films are more or less canon, there have been small changes made (one of the ones that hasen't been noted so far is that Merida does not destroy her clothes when she transformed and is still wearing them when she transforms back), and obviously Arendelle and DunBroch are parts of FTL. But at the same time, then never show the events of the movie, because all the main plot points of them are assumed to have happened. Seriously, it doesn't work any other way. So technically to get the most out of the viewing experience, you would want to watch the film, or at least read a plot summary. So I think we could say something like "The events that happened in this part of the timeline are assumed to be the same as seen in the movie Frozen/Brave." Or something to that effect. Because just listing the things we got references to is going to be both disjointed and not really explain things that we know had to have happened.

      We can't "assume" on a page, we must use facts and proven points, not suppositions.

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    • Arctucrus wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      This is tricky. While the films are more or less canon, there have been small changes made (one of the ones that hasen't been noted so far is that Merida does not destroy her clothes when she transformed and is still wearing them when she transforms back), and obviously Arendelle and DunBroch are parts of FTL. But at the same time, then never show the events of the movie, because all the main plot points of them are assumed to have happened. Seriously, it doesn't work any other way. So technically to get the most out of the viewing experience, you would want to watch the film, or at least read a plot summary. So I think we could say something like "The events that happened in this part of the timeline are assumed to be the same as seen in the movie Frozen/Brave." Or something to that effect. Because just listing the things we got references to is going to be both disjointed and not really explain things that we know had to have happened.
      I can agree with this.

      Me too

      If not, just the history tha t the Frozen/Brave characters mentioned could just go in.  Some of it is whilst some of it isn't already.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      This is tricky. While the films are more or less canon, there have been small changes made (one of the ones that hasen't been noted so far is that Merida does not destroy her clothes when she transformed and is still wearing them when she transforms back), and obviously Arendelle and DunBroch are parts of FTL. But at the same time, then never show the events of the movie, because all the main plot points of them are assumed to have happened. Seriously, it doesn't work any other way. So technically to get the most out of the viewing experience, you would want to watch the film, or at least read a plot summary. So I think we could say something like "The events that happened in this part of the timeline are assumed to be the same as seen in the movie Frozen/Brave." Or something to that effect. Because just listing the things we got references to is going to be both disjointed and not really explain things that we know had to have happened.
      We can't "assume" on a page, we must use facts and proven points, not suppositions.

      The thing is, I don't know that we have a better option than to do something similar. We might have to break protocol.

      For one, The movies aren't 100% canon, as has been proved, so there has to be something that makes a point of that -- perhaps "assume" isn't the best word, at least on its own, but you could say, "The events that happened in this part of the timeline are assumed to be extremely similar to the events seen in the films Frozen/Brave/etc."

      Moreover, we can't know if they're going to retcon anything else from the movies before the show's end to make them fit the show better (lol, sounds like an oxymoron) (like Elsa and Anna's mother's name, etc.), so again, it might be better to say something like what CoolDudeAI and I are suggesting. This is especially considering that since we can't know what else they're going to retcon, we can't very well just write the movie's plots in history sections, either, because if we have to go back and change something, it doesn't look good.

      Furthermore, like has been said, we can't list just the referenced events, because that's going to be disjoined and it's not entirely accurate, either. We know that there's more that's been accepted to happen than just what's been referenced, but we don't make a reference to that? That's not right.

      Basically, I think we're going to have to sacrifice one thing for another -- I think we can't follow the regular protocol and just go with what the facts are, because the hard truth is that we don't know what all the facts are -- we don't know what from the movies is and isn't canon -- but, we must try and maintain accuracy. We have to stay as accurate as possible, and, honestly, when I think about it, I think that if someone asked me what the #1 defining quality of this wiki and its community is, I would say that we boast accuracy above all else. Now I recognize that's just my opinion, but this is sort of reminding me of/harkening back to the gender debate from earlier, and how we, in the end, went for accuracy above all else.

      That, to me, was a defining moment in this wiki's history (if you'll excuse my being dramatic (and arguably over-dramatic haha) for a moment here), because something came up where we could have chosen to "go with the flow," but we didn't -- we chose to go with what was most accurate. I'm sure there's been other instances of this happening, but that's the one in most recent memory and again, the one easiest to mention off the top of my head. 

      Tl;dr/Summary: We have to go with what's most accurate, and I think that saying something along the lines of what CoolDudeAI and I have suggested, might be the most accurate. We don't know what is and isn't canon from the movies because as it's been seen (and mentioned already), not everything is in fact canon, and we have to address that. We also must recognize that we therefore don't know what else from the movies could be/will be retconned, and we don't want to have to deal with that in the future. We can't very well just write what's been referenced in the show, either, because that would be disjointed and incomplete, and we can't write what's been referenced and what we assume is correct because that would certainly be inaccurate. Conclusively, I think our best bet is to write something like what CoolDudeAI and I are suggesting, because it takes care of all these issues, and is the best way to maintain the most amount of accuracy we're going to be able to maintain. After all -- these are special cases (Frozen and Brave being mostly canon to the show), and so they must be treated as such.

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    • I disagree with what you suggested. I think it's better not to write anything at all than start with what we assume happened from the movie because, firstly It's not that accurate. Secondly, it will start unnecessary arguments between users that have different opinions on what happened or what didn't happen from the films.

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    • See, Adam and Eddie opened a can of worms when they decided to transplant Elsa, Anna and Merida into the show after the events of their movies. Now we can't exactly say the movies are 100% canon, because we now know neither one is, since they've changed things. But we can't also say neither movie is canon, because both storylines happen after those events.

      And they only made it worse by saying both movies are canon in that universe. Thankfully, we all have access to both movies, season 4 and season 5 thanks to Netflix, Hulu, YouTube and DVD's. I'm sure someone will be able to pull out some FBI-esque detective skills and figure out what is and isn't canon.

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      This is tricky. While the films are more or less canon, there have been small changes made (one of the ones that hasen't been noted so far is that Merida does not destroy her clothes when she transformed and is still wearing them when she transforms back), and obviously Arendelle and DunBroch are parts of FTL. But at the same time, then never show the events of the movie, because all the main plot points of them are assumed to have happened. Seriously, it doesn't work any other way. So technically to get the most out of the viewing experience, you would want to watch the film, or at least read a plot summary. So I think we could say something like "The events that happened in this part of the timeline are assumed to be the same as seen in the movie Frozen/Brave." Or something to that effect. Because just listing the things we got references to is going to be both disjointed and not really explain things that we know had to have happened.
      We can't "assume" on a page, we must use facts and proven points, not suppositions.

      Arc had a really good response to this, so I'm just going to say "ditto" to his response.

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    • Farerb wrote:
      I disagree with what you suggested. I think it's better not to write anything at all than start with what we assume happened from the movie because, firstly It's not that accurate. Secondly, it will start unnecessary arguments between users that have different opinions on what happened or what didn't happen from the films.

      Elaborate. 

      For the record though, I never said it was "that accurate." I simply suggested it was the "most accurate" we were going to get. And I still think it is. 

      Of course if there were a better option, I would jump on it. I just don't think there is one, because these are special cases and so it naturally follows that things are going to have to bend a little bit.

      Seriously though, I challenge someone to come up with something better. :/

      Also... How would it cause arguments between users that argued as to what did or didn't happen in the movies?? What happened in the movies happened and what didn't happen didn't, there's no "opinion" when it comes to events. >_<

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    • Farerb wrote:
      I disagree with what you suggested. I think it's better not to write anything at all than start with what we assume happened from the movie because, firstly It's not that accurate. Secondly, it will start unnecessary arguments between users that have different opinions on what happened or what didn't happen from the films.

      That's why one general statement to refer to the film events is better. We let people decide for themselves if the singing is canon or not, etc., but it won't lead to anything needing to be changed on the pages.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      I disagree with what you suggested. I think it's better not to write anything at all than start with what we assume happened from the movie because, firstly It's not that accurate. Secondly, it will start unnecessary arguments between users that have different opinions on what happened or what didn't happen from the films.
      That's why one general statement to refer to the film events is better. We let people decide for themselves if the singing is canon or not, etc., but it won't lead to anything needing to be changed on the pages.

      That's another good point that I don't think I touched upon well, if I did at all. We won't have to decide if the singing is or isn't canon, or what else is or isn't canon that wasn't referred to in the show. Not only do we avoid having a disjointed timeline, but we also won't have people arguing about what does and doesn't go in the history sections. That saves us a lot of trouble down the line.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      I disagree with what you suggested. I think it's better not to write anything at all than start with what we assume happened from the movie because, firstly It's not that accurate. Secondly, it will start unnecessary arguments between users that have different opinions on what happened or what didn't happen from the films.
      That's why one general statement to refer to the film events is better. We let people decide for themselves if the singing is canon or not, etc., but it won't lead to anything needing to be changed on the pages.

      I agree with a sentence like "Events which accured before the events of the show are based on the events of the film Frozen\Brave (as a link to the movies' pages)"

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      See, Adam and Eddie opened a can of worms when they decided to transplant Elsa, Anna and Merida into the show after the events of their movies. Now we can't exactly say the movies are 100% canon, because we now know neither one is, since they've changed things. But we can't also say neither movie is canon, because both storylines happen after those events.

      And they only made it worse by saying both movies are canon in that universe. Thankfully, we all have access to both movies, season 4 and season 5 thanks to Netflix, Hulu, YouTube and DVD's. I'm sure someone will be able to pull out some FBI-esque detective skills and figure out what is and isn't canon.

      The problem is many things that must be canon are never even referenced in the show. With Frozen, they never really explained what happened between Elsa, Anna, Kristoff, and Hans, other than Anna suported Elsa and got her to control her magic, with the help of Kristoff, after Hans had betrayed her. But clearly, the way this happened is how it happened in Frozen. Same with Brave, like they haven't even stated Elinor got turned into a bear, due to Merida being mad at her, but that's clearly what happened. It's just easier to say that the events of the film are very similar to what happened in Once's universe, and let people draw their own conclusions.

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    • Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      I disagree with what you suggested. I think it's better not to write anything at all than start with what we assume happened from the movie because, firstly It's not that accurate. Secondly, it will start unnecessary arguments between users that have different opinions on what happened or what didn't happen from the films.
      That's why one general statement to refer to the film events is better. We let people decide for themselves if the singing is canon or not, etc., but it won't lead to anything needing to be changed on the pages.
      I agree with a sentence like "Events which accured before the events of the show are based on the events of the film Frozen\Brave (as a link to the movies' pages)"

      I'm good with something like that.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      I disagree with what you suggested. I think it's better not to write anything at all than start with what we assume happened from the movie because, firstly It's not that accurate. Secondly, it will start unnecessary arguments between users that have different opinions on what happened or what didn't happen from the films.
      That's why one general statement to refer to the film events is better. We let people decide for themselves if the singing is canon or not, etc., but it won't lead to anything needing to be changed on the pages.
      I agree with a sentence like "Events which accured before the events of the show are based on the events of the film Frozen\Brave (as a link to the movies' pages)"
      I'm good with something like that.

      Perfect.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      See, Adam and Eddie opened a can of worms when they decided to transplant Elsa, Anna and Merida into the show after the events of their movies. Now we can't exactly say the movies are 100% canon, because we now know neither one is, since they've changed things. But we can't also say neither movie is canon, because both storylines happen after those events.

      And they only made it worse by saying both movies are canon in that universe. Thankfully, we all have access to both movies, season 4 and season 5 thanks to Netflix, Hulu, YouTube and DVD's. I'm sure someone will be able to pull out some FBI-esque detective skills and figure out what is and isn't canon.

      The problem is many things that must be canon are never even referenced in the show. With Frozen, they never really explained what happened between Elsa, Anna, Kristoff, and Hans, other than Anna suported Elsa and got her to control her magic, with the help of Kristoff, after Hans had betrayed her. But clearly, the way this happened is how it happened in Frozen. Same with Brave, like they haven't even stated Elinor got turned into a bear, due to Merida being mad at her, but that's clearly what happened. It's just easier to say that the events of the film are very similar to what happened in Once's universe, and let people draw their own conclusions.

      Oh, right. An example is Olaf. Olaf is canon to the movie, and is directly referenced by Elsa's dialogue in Rocky Road "Have you ever made a snowman come to life?" but we also see her create Marshmallow's twin in Storybrooke in 4x01, so she could've been referring to Marshmallow instead, making Olaf non-canon.

      But then Ingrid references "Do You Wanna Build A Snowman?", a song which later leads Elsa to create Olaf in the very beginning of "Let It Go" during the movie.

      And we also have no idea if the Duke is part of Elsa's story in Once like he is in the movie. In Once's universe, he could've just simply been part of Ingrid's story and since the two were so similar, they got merged in our world's telling of it (similar to Princess Ursula and Ariel getting merged into Disney's Princess Ariel).

      God, this is all so confusing.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      See, Adam and Eddie opened a can of worms when they decided to transplant Elsa, Anna and Merida into the show after the events of their movies. Now we can't exactly say the movies are 100% canon, because we now know neither one is, since they've changed things. But we can't also say neither movie is canon, because both storylines happen after those events.

      And they only made it worse by saying both movies are canon in that universe. Thankfully, we all have access to both movies, season 4 and season 5 thanks to Netflix, Hulu, YouTube and DVD's. I'm sure someone will be able to pull out some FBI-esque detective skills and figure out what is and isn't canon.

      The problem is many things that must be canon are never even referenced in the show. With Frozen, they never really explained what happened between Elsa, Anna, Kristoff, and Hans, other than Anna suported Elsa and got her to control her magic, with the help of Kristoff, after Hans had betrayed her. But clearly, the way this happened is how it happened in Frozen. Same with Brave, like they haven't even stated Elinor got turned into a bear, due to Merida being mad at her, but that's clearly what happened. It's just easier to say that the events of the film are very similar to what happened in Once's universe, and let people draw their own conclusions.
      Oh, right. An example is Olaf. Olaf is canon to the movie, and is directly referenced by Elsa's dialogue in Rocky Road "Have you ever made a snowman come to life?" but we also see her create Marshmallow's twin in Storybrooke in 4x01, so she could've been referring to Marshmallow instead, making Olaf non-canon.

      But then Ingrid references "Do You Wanna Build A Snowman?", a song which later leads Elsa to create Olaf in the very beginning of "Let It Go" during the movie.

      And we also have no idea if the Duke is part of Elsa's story in Once like he is in the movie. In Once's universe, he could've just simply been part of Ingrid's story and since the two were so similar, they got merged in our world's telling of it (similar to Princess Ursula and Ariel getting merged into Disney's Princess Ariel).

      God, this is all so confusing.

      All the more reason not to force one person's interpretation of what could obviously be several different interpretations on everyone else, and just leave a simple, blanket statement.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Arctucrus wrote:

      All the more reason not to force one person's interpretation of what could obviously be several different interpretations on everyone else, and just leave a simple, blanket statement.

      That's exactly the problem of your statements. If we put what you and CDA suggested, we will say that all elements from Frozen happened, but are changed. Clearly, some events prolly/could not happened. Olaf is not canon in OUAT, and the Duke could definitely not be a part of Elsa's story. By adding your statement, we would say that he is a part of Elsa's story, which is not true.

      Better to check all mentioned elements.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Arctucrus wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      See, Adam and Eddie opened a can of worms when they decided to transplant Elsa, Anna and Merida into the show after the events of their movies. Now we can't exactly say the movies are 100% canon, because we now know neither one is, since they've changed things. But we can't also say neither movie is canon, because both storylines happen after those events.

      And they only made it worse by saying both movies are canon in that universe. Thankfully, we all have access to both movies, season 4 and season 5 thanks to Netflix, Hulu, YouTube and DVD's. I'm sure someone will be able to pull out some FBI-esque detective skills and figure out what is and isn't canon.

      The problem is many things that must be canon are never even referenced in the show. With Frozen, they never really explained what happened between Elsa, Anna, Kristoff, and Hans, other than Anna suported Elsa and got her to control her magic, with the help of Kristoff, after Hans had betrayed her. But clearly, the way this happened is how it happened in Frozen. Same with Brave, like they haven't even stated Elinor got turned into a bear, due to Merida being mad at her, but that's clearly what happened. It's just easier to say that the events of the film are very similar to what happened in Once's universe, and let people draw their own conclusions.
      Oh, right. An example is Olaf. Olaf is canon to the movie, and is directly referenced by Elsa's dialogue in Rocky Road "Have you ever made a snowman come to life?" but we also see her create Marshmallow's twin in Storybrooke in 4x01, so she could've been referring to Marshmallow instead, making Olaf non-canon.

      But then Ingrid references "Do You Wanna Build A Snowman?", a song which later leads Elsa to create Olaf in the very beginning of "Let It Go" during the movie.

      And we also have no idea if the Duke is part of Elsa's story in Once like he is in the movie. In Once's universe, he could've just simply been part of Ingrid's story and since the two were so similar, they got merged in our world's telling of it (similar to Princess Ursula and Ariel getting merged into Disney's Princess Ariel).

      God, this is all so confusing.

      All the more reason not to force one person's interpretation of what could obviously be several different interpretations on everyone else, and just leave a simple, blanket statement.

      Or we could just give very, very, very general summaries of the movie's events.

      For Frozen:

      During her coronation ceremony, Queen Elsa's ice powers manifest and she runs away in fear. Unfortunately causing an eternal winter everywhere in her kingdom of Arendelle, she is pursued by her sister Anna with the help of an ice merchant named Kristoff. After an altercation between Elsa and Anna during which Anna almost dies, she is later betrayed by Prince Hans, whom she believed she had loved. After helping Elsa control her powers, Anna starts a relationship with Kristoff.

      For Brave:

      Princess Merida is informed by her mother that she is to be engaged to the son of one of her father's allies. Adamant to remain untethered and free, she bests all three suitors in an archery competition, which enrages their fathers and her mother. After an argument, Merida runs away. At some point, she reaches the Witch's hut due to being led there by the wisps and is given a spell to change her mother. After Queen Elinor becomes a bear due to the spell, her and Merida spend a day together in the forest and discover that the spell previously affected Mor'du, her father's bear nemesis. Bringing Elinor back to King Fergus' castle, Merida is able to get out of the arranged marriage but Fergus begins hunting his wife, mistaking her for Mor'du. At some point, Fergus and his forces corner Elinor in the Enchanted Forest's Hill of Stones. Merida is led there by the Wisps and confronts Fergus to save Elinor until they are all stalked by Mor'du. Elinor kills Mor'du to defend Merida and reverts back to human form.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      See, Adam and Eddie opened a can of worms when they decided to transplant Elsa, Anna and Merida into the show after the events of their movies. Now we can't exactly say the movies are 100% canon, because we now know neither one is, since they've changed things. But we can't also say neither movie is canon, because both storylines happen after those events.

      And they only made it worse by saying both movies are canon in that universe. Thankfully, we all have access to both movies, season 4 and season 5 thanks to Netflix, Hulu, YouTube and DVD's. I'm sure someone will be able to pull out some FBI-esque detective skills and figure out what is and isn't canon.

      The problem is many things that must be canon are never even referenced in the show. With Frozen, they never really explained what happened between Elsa, Anna, Kristoff, and Hans, other than Anna suported Elsa and got her to control her magic, with the help of Kristoff, after Hans had betrayed her. But clearly, the way this happened is how it happened in Frozen. Same with Brave, like they haven't even stated Elinor got turned into a bear, due to Merida being mad at her, but that's clearly what happened. It's just easier to say that the events of the film are very similar to what happened in Once's universe, and let people draw their own conclusions.
      Oh, right. An example is Olaf. Olaf is canon to the movie, and is directly referenced by Elsa's dialogue in Rocky Road "Have you ever made a snowman come to life?" but we also see her create Marshmallow's twin in Storybrooke in 4x01, so she could've been referring to Marshmallow instead, making Olaf non-canon.

      But then Ingrid references "Do You Wanna Build A Snowman?", a song which later leads Elsa to create Olaf in the very beginning of "Let It Go" during the movie.

      And we also have no idea if the Duke is part of Elsa's story in Once like he is in the movie. In Once's universe, he could've just simply been part of Ingrid's story and since the two were so similar, they got merged in our world's telling of it (similar to Princess Ursula and Ariel getting merged into Disney's Princess Ariel).

      God, this is all so confusing.

      Well, I think the age of the Duke in the flashback made it clear he was indeed there (and older) when Elsa was corenated. Like I said, it's assumed everything happened, but so we don't sit here all day debating what a throwaway line meant, it is better to just make a blanket statement.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Lady Junky wrote:
      Arctucrus wrote:

      All the more reason not to force one person's interpretation of what could obviously be several different interpretations on everyone else, and just leave a simple, blanket statement.

      That's exactly the problem of your statements. If we put what you and CDA suggested, we will say that all elements from Frozen happened, but are changed. Clearly, some events prolly/could not happened. Olaf is not canon in OUAT, and the Duke could definitely not be a part of Elsa's story. By adding your statement, we would say that he is a part of Elsa's story, which is not true.

      Better to check all mentioned elements.

      Well, according to Adam and Eddy all the events are same as seen in the movie, so it wouldn't be untrue. What your suggesting will turn into a huge problem, with people arguing over ever little line and what it means. And it would still leave out things that have to had happened, for anything to even make sense.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Arctucrus wrote:

      All the more reason not to force one person's interpretation of what could obviously be several different interpretations on everyone else, and just leave a simple, blanket statement.

      That's exactly the problem of your statements. If we put what you and CDA suggested, we will say that all elements from Frozen happened, but are changed. Clearly, some events prolly/could not happened. Olaf is not canon in OUAT, and the Duke could definitely not be a part of Elsa's story. By adding your statement, we would say that he is a part of Elsa's story, which is not true.

      Better to check all mentioned elements.

      Well, according to Adam and Eddy all the events are same as seen in the movie, so it wouldn't be untrue. What your suggesting will turn into a huge problem, with people arguing over ever little line and what it means. And it would still leave out things that have to had happened, for anything to even make sense.

      They said Olaf's story wouldn't be a part of the show, but they never said it wasn't part of that universe. My headcanon is that soon after Frozen Fever (A year before 4x01's flashbacks) he went off to see the world.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Lady Junky wrote:
      Arctucrus wrote:

      All the more reason not to force one person's interpretation of what could obviously be several different interpretations on everyone else, and just leave a simple, blanket statement.

      That's exactly the problem of your statements. If we put what you and CDA suggested, we will say that all elements from Frozen happened, but are changed. Clearly, some events prolly/could not happened. Olaf is not canon in OUAT, and the Duke could definitely not be a part of Elsa's story. By adding your statement, we would say that he is a part of Elsa's story, which is not true.

      Better to check all mentioned elements.

      No, no we wouldn't.

      Arctucrus wrote:

      "The events that happened in this part of the timeline are assumed to be extremely similar to the events seen in the films Frozen/Brave/etc."

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      I disagree with what you suggested. I think it's better not to write anything at all than start with what we assume happened from the movie because, firstly It's not that accurate. Secondly, it will start unnecessary arguments between users that have different opinions on what happened or what didn't happen from the films.
      That's why one general statement to refer to the film events is better. We let people decide for themselves if the singing is canon or not, etc., but it won't lead to anything needing to be changed on the pages.
      I agree with a sentence like "Events which accured before the events of the show are based on the events of the film Frozen\Brave (as a link to the movies' pages)"

      Or we could use this suggestion, Lady, if you think it is better. Arc and I both liked it.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Arctucrus wrote:

      All the more reason not to force one person's interpretation of what could obviously be several different interpretations on everyone else, and just leave a simple, blanket statement.

      That's exactly the problem of your statements. If we put what you and CDA suggested, we will say that all elements from Frozen happened, but are changed. Clearly, some events prolly/could not happened. Olaf is not canon in OUAT, and the Duke could definitely not be a part of Elsa's story. By adding your statement, we would say that he is a part of Elsa's story, which is not true.
      Better to check all mentioned elements.
      Well, according to Adam and Eddy all the events are same as seen in the movie, so it wouldn't be untrue. What your suggesting will turn into a huge problem, with people arguing over ever little line and what it means. And it would still leave out things that have to had happened, for anything to even make sense.
      They said Olaf's story wouldn't be a part of the show, but they never said it wasn't part of that universe. My headcanon is that soon after Frozen Fever (A year before 4x01's flashbacks) he went off to see the world.

      But my headcanon is that he fell into a hot tub and melted. Regardless, Olaf should not be mentioned at all, he is not a part of the show.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Arctucrus wrote:

      All the more reason not to force one person's interpretation of what could obviously be several different interpretations on everyone else, and just leave a simple, blanket statement.

      That's exactly the problem of your statements. If we put what you and CDA suggested, we will say that all elements from Frozen happened, but are changed. Clearly, some events prolly/could not happened. Olaf is not canon in OUAT, and the Duke could definitely not be a part of Elsa's story. By adding your statement, we would say that he is a part of Elsa's story, which is not true.
      Better to check all mentioned elements.
      Well, according to Adam and Eddy all the events are same as seen in the movie, so it wouldn't be untrue. What your suggesting will turn into a huge problem, with people arguing over ever little line and what it means. And it would still leave out things that have to had happened, for anything to even make sense.
      They said Olaf's story wouldn't be a part of the show, but they never said it wasn't part of that universe. My headcanon is that soon after Frozen Fever (A year before 4x01's flashbacks) he went off to see the world.

      Exactly. We can't just exclude Olaf from a summary of Frozen -- he was a big part of it.

      See, these are the issues that anything other than what CoolDudeAI and I are suggesting cause. Some people would want to include Olaf in the history sections, and some people wouldn't. 

      Again, a blanket statement just allows people to create their own headcanons as to how much is part of the show, and how much isn't. There wouldn't be edit wars.

      After all, edit wars are a sign of unhealthiness of a wiki. If we want to stay a "healthy wiki," shouldn't we try to prevent edit wars, and do what's best for the well-being of our little website and community?

      It's like why we don't include ship pages. Ships are a huge part of the show, just like the films Frozen and Brave. However, not every part of every ship is in fact part of the show, because a lot of people form their own headcanons and the like, so it's best to leave ship pages out and just reference ships srictly factually where they come up. This is the same thing -- We don't want to include summaries of the movies, especially because we don't even know what is and isn't in the show's canon, so it's best to just write a blanket statement and refer to them as strictly factually as we can.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Arctucrus wrote:

      All the more reason not to force one person's interpretation of what could obviously be several different interpretations on everyone else, and just leave a simple, blanket statement.

      That's exactly the problem of your statements. If we put what you and CDA suggested, we will say that all elements from Frozen happened, but are changed. Clearly, some events prolly/could not happened. Olaf is not canon in OUAT, and the Duke could definitely not be a part of Elsa's story. By adding your statement, we would say that he is a part of Elsa's story, which is not true.
      Better to check all mentioned elements.
      Well, according to Adam and Eddy all the events are same as seen in the movie, so it wouldn't be untrue. What your suggesting will turn into a huge problem, with people arguing over ever little line and what it means. And it would still leave out things that have to had happened, for anything to even make sense.
      They said Olaf's story wouldn't be a part of the show, but they never said it wasn't part of that universe. My headcanon is that soon after Frozen Fever (A year before 4x01's flashbacks) he went off to see the world.
      But my headcanon is that he fell into a hot tub and melted. Regardless, Olaf should not be mentioned at all, he is not a part of the show.

      Again, that's debatable. 

      He may not be featured in the show, but if the show's universe and canon extends beyond the show, to content where he is featured, then I can't see why some people wouldn't consider him a part of the show's universe, which, in the end, is really what this wiki is about. It's a matter of opinion.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Arctucrus wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Arctucrus wrote:

      All the more reason not to force one person's interpretation of what could obviously be several different interpretations on everyone else, and just leave a simple, blanket statement.

      That's exactly the problem of your statements. If we put what you and CDA suggested, we will say that all elements from Frozen happened, but are changed. Clearly, some events prolly/could not happened. Olaf is not canon in OUAT, and the Duke could definitely not be a part of Elsa's story. By adding your statement, we would say that he is a part of Elsa's story, which is not true.
      Better to check all mentioned elements.
      Well, according to Adam and Eddy all the events are same as seen in the movie, so it wouldn't be untrue. What your suggesting will turn into a huge problem, with people arguing over ever little line and what it means. And it would still leave out things that have to had happened, for anything to even make sense.
      They said Olaf's story wouldn't be a part of the show, but they never said it wasn't part of that universe. My headcanon is that soon after Frozen Fever (A year before 4x01's flashbacks) he went off to see the world.
      But my headcanon is that he fell into a hot tub and melted. Regardless, Olaf should not be mentioned at all, he is not a part of the show.
      Again, that's debatable. 

      He may not be featured in the show, but if the show's universe and canon extends beyond the show, to content where he is featured, then I can't see why some people wouldn't consider him a part of the show's universe, which, in the end, is really what this wiki is about. It's a matter of opinion.

      That's exactly the point. Articles should not be a matter of opinions, they should be a matter of facts. Olaf is an example of unnecessary arguments I've mentioned before.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Farerb wrote:
      Arctucrus wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Arctucrus wrote:

      All the more reason not to force one person's interpretation of what could obviously be several different interpretations on everyone else, and just leave a simple, blanket statement.

      That's exactly the problem of your statements. If we put what you and CDA suggested, we will say that all elements from Frozen happened, but are changed. Clearly, some events prolly/could not happened. Olaf is not canon in OUAT, and the Duke could definitely not be a part of Elsa's story. By adding your statement, we would say that he is a part of Elsa's story, which is not true.
      Better to check all mentioned elements.
      Well, according to Adam and Eddy all the events are same as seen in the movie, so it wouldn't be untrue. What your suggesting will turn into a huge problem, with people arguing over ever little line and what it means. And it would still leave out things that have to had happened, for anything to even make sense.
      They said Olaf's story wouldn't be a part of the show, but they never said it wasn't part of that universe. My headcanon is that soon after Frozen Fever (A year before 4x01's flashbacks) he went off to see the world.
      But my headcanon is that he fell into a hot tub and melted. Regardless, Olaf should not be mentioned at all, he is not a part of the show.
      Again, that's debatable. 

      He may not be featured in the show, but if the show's universe and canon extends beyond the show, to content where he is featured, then I can't see why some people wouldn't consider him a part of the show's universe, which, in the end, is really what this wiki is about. It's a matter of opinion.

      That's exactly the point. Articles should not be a matter of opinions, they should be a matter of facts. Olaf is an example of unnecessary arguments I've mentioned before.

      Couldn't have said it better myself.

      Glad we agree.

      If articles should be a matter of facts, we can't include or not include Olaf, therefore we can't write summaries of the movies.

      We can't just write summaries of what's been referenced in the show, because those events would be disjoined, disconnected, and incomplete.

      Therefore, the only option left is to take the CoolDudeAI route.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • No, that's not the only option. We could just NOT talk about the movies, because they are not a part of the show. The events that we have not seen in the show do not need to be forced down anybody's throats. The events happened mostly like the ones in the movies, great. That does not make them parts of the show.

      So yeah, the movies are NOT part of the show, but they shed light into what happened before we met the characters on the show. This, however, is a Once Upon a Time wiki, and whatever happens outside the Once Upon a Time franchise should not be taken in the same degree of relevance as stuff that actually does happen within the franchise.

      In other words, I think articles are fine as they are. We do not need to add any history that does not come from the show, its novels, comics or spinoff.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Killian Jones wrote:
      No, that's not the only option. We could just NOT talk about the movies, because they are not a part of the show. The events that we have not seen in the show do not need to be forced down anybody's throats. The events happened mostly like the ones in the movies, great. That does not make them parts of the show.

      So yeah, the movies are NOT part of the show, but they shed light into what happened before we met the characters on the show. This, however, is a Once Upon a Time wiki, and whatever happens outside the Once Upon a Time franchise should not be taken in the same degree of relevance as stuff that actually does happen within the franchise.

      In other words, I think articles are fine as they are. We do not need to add any history that does not come from the show, its novels, comics or spinoff.

      Well, we could do that, but it seems kind of dumb, as Adam and Eddy have achknowledged the fact that the events from Frozen and Brave are canon to the characters, and thus are their backstories, which is why they are never shown on the show. By contrast, all the other characters backstories can vary (and often do) from the traditional and/or Disney versions.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Killian Jones wrote:
      No, that's not the only option. We could just NOT talk about the movies, because they are not a part of the show. The events that we have not seen in the show do not need to be forced down anybody's throats. The events happened mostly like the ones in the movies, great. That does not make them parts of the show.

      So yeah, the movies are NOT part of the show, but they shed light into what happened before we met the characters on the show. This, however, is a Once Upon a Time wiki, and whatever happens outside the Once Upon a Time franchise should not be taken in the same degree of relevance as stuff that actually does happen within the franchise.

      In other words, I think articles are fine as they are. We do not need to add any history that does not come from the show, its novels, comics or spinoff.

      Well, we could do that, but it seems kind of dumb, as Adam and Eddy have achknowledged the fact that the events from Frozen and Brave are canon to the characters, and thus are their backstories, which is why they are never shown on the show. By contrast, all the other characters backstories can vary (and often do) from the traditional and/or Disney versions.

      I agree with Kilian. It's best not to talk about it. A & E say that but then we have some obvious contradictions and we can't take their words any farther than we can throw them.

      So far, Brave is deviating less than Frozen, but nevertheless we should not use it as fact. So not mentioning that fact will do no harm and works using the in-show as the greatest canon unless reasons otherwise.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I think this situation is shaping up to be like the Star Wars Canon.

      The Star Wars Canon is the two trilogies, the Clone Wars movie/tv series, the Rebels tv series and the upcoming trilogy.

      Everything else made since the 70's is now part of the Expanded Universe, which is stuff that definitely happened but is not officially canon. And if something canon outright contradicts it, it's considered irrelevant.

      So I think we might need to consider having three different levels of canon. The two television shows (Once and Wonderland), the two comics (SotQ and OotP), and then stuff linked to the franchise and named as canon, but not having had any direct contact with people from the show (Red's Untold Tale, Frozen and Brave).

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I think the canonicity of external media is up to each and every viewer. We should not force Frozen or Brave into anybody's canon of the show.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Killian Jones wrote:
      I think the canonicity of external media is up to each and every viewer. We should not force Frozen or Brave into anybody's canon of the show.

      The show itself already did that by copy/pasting the characters from those worlds into the show years after the events of their movies.

      If we had seen the movie's events twisted like Once has done to all the other stories featured, it'd be different, but it's not.

      Even if it's a lower tier of canon, it's still canon.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Yes, I know what you mean, but that's not what I'm talking about. We know that most of what happened in the movie happened. But we can't be judges of what happened and what didn't. Did the characters sing all the songs? Was Elsa's mother Iduna, or was it Gerda? Did Olaf speak? Did Rapunzel go to Arendelle?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Killian Jones wrote:
      Yes, I know what you mean, but that's not what I'm talking about. We know that most of what happened in the movie happened. But we can't be judges of what happened and what didn't. Did the characters sing all the songs? Was Elsa's mother Iduna, or was it Gerda? Did Olaf speak? Did Rapunzel go to Arendelle?

      This. With so many facts that say otherwise, the in-show would be taken over the words of the writers.

      Now in Brave's case, there's not enough information to tell. It can't be exactly compared to Frozen which changed names and other things. It all depends on what we see, but the basic assumption could either be:

      --Assume the events of the movie happened based on Word of Writers, changing the discrepancies to fit what happened in-show, or

      --Use only things presented in-show

      I would go with the "Less is More" approach so that way there is no error or speculative proof. It's better to have facts, rather than speculation. If there's speculation to be allowed than it's not really helpful (unless it's in trivia)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Well either way, this thread has gone off-topic. It was originally about what to put in the Frozen/Brave characters' bios before the events of their debut episodes. But it's now turned into a discussion of whether or not the movies are canon.

      So maybe someone could make a highlighted thread to definitively discuss and decide how to treat the movies in terms of canon? And then once that matter's been decided, we can come back to this thread to discuss the original point of this thread: what to put in everyone's bios.

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      Yes, I know what you mean, but that's not what I'm talking about. We know that most of what happened in the movie happened. But we can't be judges of what happened and what didn't. Did the characters sing all the songs? Was Elsa's mother Iduna, or was it Gerda? Did Olaf speak? Did Rapunzel go to Arendelle?

      Which is why just a general statement that the movies are extremly similar or based on the events from the movies, allows for everyone to interpet as much or as little as they want.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Killian Jones wrote:
      Yes, I know what you mean, but that's not what I'm talking about. We know that most of what happened in the movie happened. But we can't be judges of what happened and what didn't. Did the characters sing all the songs? Was Elsa's mother Iduna, or was it Gerda? Did Olaf speak? Did Rapunzel go to Arendelle?
      This. With so many facts that say otherwise, the in-show would be taken over the words of the writers.

      Now in Brave's case, there's not enough information to tell. It can't be exactly compared to Frozen which changed names and other things. It all depends on what we see, but the basic assumption could either be:

      --Assume the events of the movie happened based on Word of Writers, changing the discrepancies to fit what happened in-show, or

      --Use only things presented in-show

      I would go with the "Less is More" approach so that way there is no error or speculative proof. It's better to have facts, rather than speculation. If there's speculation to be allowed than it's not really helpful (unless it's in trivia)

      What I have suggested is a less is more approach. One statement, that's it. No fighting over singing, mother's names, Olaf, easter eggs, etc.

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    • Oh, my bad, I was under the impression we were considering adding actual summaries for the events of the movies. I am still not sure about a statement calling back to the movies.

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      Oh, my bad, I was under the impression we were considering adding actual summaries for the events of the movies. I am still not sure about a statement calling back to the movies.

      Nope, that's exactly what CoolDudeAI and I were trying to avoid/fix. :p

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    • Can't we just mention something like that?: 'Merida is based on the character of the same name from the Disney/Pixar film, Brave, and we meet her some time after the events of the movie.' After all that's what Adam and Eddy said: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/21/once-upon-time-merida-season-5-spoilers

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    • Brzoskwinia wrote:
      Can't we just mention something like that?: 'Merida is based on the character of the same name from the Disney/Pixar film, Brave, and we meet her some time after the events of the movie.' After all that's what Adam and Eddy said: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/21/once-upon-time-merida-season-5-spoilers

      We can't quite say that, because as much as Adam and Eddy wish that the movies worked into the show's canon perfectly, they don't, which is why we need a statement that says something more like they are "adapted from," or "based on."

      But that general idea, yes.

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    • How about something like "Before the events shown in <enter character's earliest timeline point here>, events similar to <movie> unfolded."

      And then for Brave characters, we start bio's with "Ten years after the previous events," and with Frozen characters, we start bio's with "Two years after the previous events,"... Does that sound good?

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      How about something like "Before the events shown in <enter character's earliest timeline point here>, events similar to <movie> unfolded."

      And then for Brave characters, we start bio's with "Ten years after the previous events," and with Frozen characters, we start bio's with "Two years after the previous events,"... Does that sound good?

      I think I can roll with that.

      CoolDude?

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    • Arctucrus wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      How about something like "Before the events shown in <enter character's earliest timeline point here>, events similar to <movie> unfolded."

      And then for Brave characters, we start bio's with "Ten years after the previous events," and with Frozen characters, we start bio's with "Two years after the previous events,"... Does that sound good?

      I think I can roll with that.

      CoolDude?

      Works for me. :)

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Arctucrus wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      How about something like "Before the events shown in <enter character's earliest timeline point here>, events similar to <movie> unfolded."

      And then for Brave characters, we start bio's with "Ten years after the previous events," and with Frozen characters, we start bio's with "Two years after the previous events,"... Does that sound good?

      I think I can roll with that.

      CoolDude?

      Works for me. :)

      Cool. Hopefully the staff agrees and we can put this all to bed.

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    • Lady Junky wrote: Let's be precised. The events of the films are canon, but not the films. Meaning all events of the film happened, but maybe not exactly like it is depicted in the Disney film. For exemple, Elsa singing Let It Go is not canon in OUAT. :)

      Well we don't know that. Anna implied that "Love is An Open Door" is canon within the show.

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
        Preparing Editor Spell
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