FANDOM


  • Hello everyone! There has been quite a Staff dicussion recently, and we figured it would be better to include you all.

    Do you recall that Kansas episode, in which Dorothy appeared in Oz through a Cyclone and then went back home with the magic slippers? Well, there's been conflicting points of view as to wether her Kansas is in fact the Land Without Magic or wether it was left ambiguous. So, I'm gonna try to cover up both sides of the debate and then you can give your opinon.

    Kansas is from the Land Without Magic

    According to some, the episode made it clear that Dorothy is from the Land Without Magic's (aka Our World's) Kansas. This is the evidence they provide:

    • In "The Doctor", Rumplestiltskin says that the slippers have been taken to the Land Without Magic. And Dorothy once went with the slippers to her Kansas. So Kansas must be in the LWM.

    Kansas' nature is left ambiguous

    On the other hand, it is also possible that Kansas' nature is left unknown. This is why some people might think this:

    • There is never a direct reference to the Land Without Magic itself. All that they said was "home" and "Kansas".
    • Rumplestiltskin saying that the slippers are in the LWM proves nothing. A lot could've happened between Dorothy going home and the slippers ending up in the LWM, nobody knows, and it would be speculation to both say she went to the LWM or to say she went elswhere, hence its ambiguous.
    • Kansas might be in some different world, such as the Land Without Color, Victorian Era, 1920's World, etc., or be one of its own, and there is nothing that rules this option out.

    Your Opinion

    So, what do you all think? Can we be certain that Dorothy is from the Land Without Magic? Can we not? If you have any other arguments to support either of these points of view please do share them! Thank you!

      Preparing Editor Spell
    • I say ambiguous for the reasons stated above.

      There is also the point that a magic green cyclone took an enitre house away... I don't see that happening in the Land Without Magic. XD

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Can't we just ask a writer on twitter or something? :)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • It was left ambiguous. Jefferson said they moved to another land and then Rumple said I needed them to get to that other land. they were vague. We don't even know if Rumple and Jefferson were talking about the same land.

      Example:

      R: I need to use those slippers to get to a land without magic. (Then Jefferson fails and returns)

      J: I heard that the slippers moved on to another land.

      R: But I needed those slippers to get to that other land

      Could be read both ways if we knew all the context...and they stopped using vague and similar terminology.

      I say Kansas is a separate "land" because Walsh and Dorothy both refer to their "land" as Kansas, no United States, or Earth, or anything. I also think that magic green cyclone ripping into all worlds wouldn't make sense because magic shouldn't be that prevalent in a magicless world. I tend to imagine it colorless, but that green cyclone and powerful magic makes me think otherwise.

      We cannot be certain that Dorothyand Walsh are from the LWM we know at least. As Jefferson said that there are many worlds where there is no magic. But then magic seems to be in varying levels in certain worlds. Sorry for rambling!

      Ambiguous

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Killian Jones wrote: There is also the point that a magic green cyclone took an enitre house away... I don't see that happening in the Land Without Magic. XD

      True. However, the Dragon does say, in 218 that magic in the LWM is rare, but still possible to get.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Rubenvst wrote: Can't we just ask a writer on twitter or something? :)

      Didn't someone try that? And received no answer...?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I felt conflicted about this, also.  How could a cyclone appear in the Land Without Magic?  However,  Rumple says, "But I need those slippers to get to that other world" (paraphraising) in The Doctor.  This implies that Kansas is in the LWM.  I hope eventually (with Zelena being a regular) that they explain this, but I doubt they ever will.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Nightlily wrote:

      Killian Jones wrote: There is also the point that a magic green cyclone took an enitre house away... I don't see that happening in the Land Without Magic. XD

      True. However, the Dragon does say, in 218 that magic in the LWM is rare, but still possible to get.

      Magical ingredients and items as well as extraordinarily powerful people are able to manifest some semblance of magic, but a giant green magical tornado? I doubt that simply because that's a lot of magic in one place.

      I sort of had a debate about the Shadow once. The shadow, a creature of magic, existed while Chernabog disapated. I think it's poor worldbuilding on their part. They half-want to keep it normal and separate, but can't keep magic from flowing over creating inconsistencies they try to explain. Like why the dagger doesn't work in a land without magic? It all comesa back to worldbuilding.

      I do think the best way is for the writers to tell us what "Kansas" is, but then again they may not know. If we do see the green cyclone again, maybe they'll mention it only crossing magical realms.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • AustinSegal wrote: I felt conflicted about this, also.  How could a cyclone appear in the Land Without Magic?  However,  Rumple says, "But I need those slippers to get to that other world" (paraphraising) in The Doctor.  This implies that Kansas is in the LWM.  I hope eventually (with Zelena being a regular) that they explain this, but I doubt they ever will.

      Exactly. Besides what each of us might choose to believe, information is indeed conflicting, hence we can't be certain either way.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Nightlily wrote:

      Rubenvst wrote: Can't we just ask a writer on twitter or something? :)

      Didn't someone try that? And received no answer...?

      There've been more than one attempts that have gone unanswered, but we can keep trying.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • AustinSegal wrote:
      I felt conflicted about this, also.  How could a cyclone appear in the Land Without Magic?  However,  Rumple says, "But I need those slippers to get to that other world" (paraphraising) in The Doctor.  This implies that Kansas is in the LWM.  I hope eventually (with Zelena being a regular) that they explain this, but I doubt they ever will.

      I disagree wit the Rumple statement because Jefferson didn't say where Dorothy went and Rumple had no clue about Dorothy and where she went so he wouldn't know she is from the Land Without Magic. He isn't omniscient because he clearly didn't know about the girl and her departure with the slippers. So how would he----that's why I made my post that the conversation with added context could likely be referring to some place else.

      Hope so! But we'll never know...I believe.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:

      Nightlily wrote:

      Killian Jones wrote: There is also the point that a magic green cyclone took an enitre house away... I don't see that happening in the Land Without Magic. XD

      True. However, the Dragon does say, in 218 that magic in the LWM is rare, but still possible to get.

      Magical ingredients and items as well as extraordinarily powerful people are able to manifest some semblance of magic, but a giant green magical tornado? I doubt that simply because that's a lot of magic in one place.

      Well, we do not know the laws of magic on OUAT, so for all we know, a tornado is possible as long as there is some magic.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Well, the Darlings existed in our world (when it would've been easier to make them part of Alice's world), and I'd say a talking, flying shadow is much more improbable than a tornado that's also a portal.

      And the Kansas parts of the Oz series happen in the real Kansas, so why should the show be any different? My one problem is Dorothy's attire. If the flashbacks all take place in real time, then Kansas happens in the mid- to late-60's. Yet Dorothy is wearing a dress I'd expect a young girl to wear in say, maybe the 1930's (which is when the MGM movie came out).

      So I'd say that Dorothy is from another world that is just Kansas, and trapped in the 30's. Maybe To Kill A Mockingbird also happens here since it also takes place in the American 30's (albeit in another state).

      But nothing says that Walsh and Dorothy are from the same Kansas. I'd say that since Walsh didn't even have magic, he was from our Kansas, Dorothy wasn't shocked at the presence of magic at all.

      And let's not forget the most important thing. Dorothy Gale never realized she was Dorothy Gale. If these flashbacks did take place in the 60's and Dorothy was from our world, she would've known instantly that she was the Dorothy of popular culture and that all she had to do to defeat the green-skinned witch was throw water at her, but yet... Dorothy never recognized Glinda, never tried to melt Zelena on purpose. That points to her being from another of the literary worlds rather than ours. Walsh maybe still could be from our world, because we didn't see much of him at all, much less if he recognized Oz and realized he was the Wizard. His New York furniture store definitely hints that he knew (by then, at least) who he was known as and that he was famous in our land, 'cause he was definitely playing on his self-given title.

      The Darlings, in my opinion, were the only ones for whom residing in the Land Without Magic made sense, since they were tied to Baelfire and they actually appeared long before the 1904 Peter and Wendy novel, appearing in the mid-1800's, according to the show. But the Darlings aren't the discussion at hand, Dorothy and Walsh are.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Darlings belong on another topic. (My personal headcanon  is that they live on a spearate World without Magic, because there is apparently more than one.)

      Walsh is from the same Kansas as Dorothy. He was no more phased by magic than she was. He clearly knew how magical items and stuff worked and even set up that elaborate throne room.

      Good point about the time issues. First, it would be incredibly odd that Dorothy wouldn't know about a popular movie at the time (and book series) and not draw some connections. She was dressed like 1930s and backwards even though it would clearly be the late 60s to 70s. Also, did no one think she was odd....unless she was tucked away in a looney bin.

      Walsh having a store means nothing because um.....if he was famous people would recognize a man that should be like 70 and balding when he looks nothing of the sort. He could come from a similar type world, but it doesn't mean he's from that world. He never expressed sympathy or regards to being from there.

      Also, just because Kansas was "our world" in the books doesn't really mean a thing. Belle lived in France and we know that isn't the case in Once Upon a Time.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • For theories about Kansas being or not being a different land, check out this thread.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Darlings belong on another topic. (My personal headcanon  is that they live on a spearate World without Magic, because there is apparently more than one.)

      Walsh is from the same Kansas as Dorothy. He was no more phased by magic than she was. He clearly knew how magical items and stuff worked and even set up that elaborate throne room.

      Good point about the time issues. First, it would be incredibly odd that Dorothy wouldn't know about a popular movie at the time (and book series) and not draw some connections. She was dressed like 1930s and backwards even though it would clearly be the late 60s to 70s. Also, did no one think she was odd....unless she was tucked away in a looney bin.

      Walsh having a store means nothing because um.....if he was famous people would recognize a man that should be like 70 and balding when he looks nothing of the sort. He could come from a similar type world, but it doesn't mean he's from that world. He never expressed sympathy or regards to being from there.

      Also, just because Kansas was "our world" in the books doesn't really mean a thing. Belle lived in France and we know that isn't the case in Once Upon a Time.

      Either way, my headcanon is that Dorothy's Kansas is another world, Walsh's is not. And that the Darlings are in fact from Alice's world. It didn't have magic native to it, but Wonderland's magic worked on it quite often.

      But the Darlings are off-topic. I say Kansas is in fact another land.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Interesting topic! I do believe that Kansas is another world, for me the most likely place would be The Land Without Colour as magic is not native to that land and as Dr Frankenstien doesn't seem to believe in magic that makes sense. I believe the LWOC is equivilant to our world as in different countries etc. I don't think Kansas is in our world because A) the way Dorothy is dressed. She was also wearing black and white (I know not much of a link but there you go) B) The fact we have a magical teleporting cyclone. I did think at one time it was its own seperate world known simply as Kansas due to the fact both Walsh and Dorothy both mentioned it being their home but the more I thought about it I was more inclined to believe it is a country in the LWOC.

      As mentioned above Rumple and Jeffersons coversation was very vague and might not have been talking about the same land. 

      I know this is off topic but I do believe the Darlings are in another world without magic. It would have made sense to have them in the same world as Alice but for some reason the writers never made the link.  

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Well, for me, it's kinda speculation but I think Dorothy and Walsh could be from another realm or world besides the LWM. When Dorothy first arrived in Oz, she mentioned something about not being in Kansas anymore. I remember either Glinda/Zelena mentioned about being in the new land and that was when Dorothy replied. Besides, with the cyclone being in the LWM is impossible. The Dragon/Rumple/Zelena all have said that magic has to be brought to be used in the LWM, unlike the other worlds. Besides, if I were Dorothy (if I was a girl), I would actually panic seeing Oz as I would be thinking of Oz as a fairytale and seeing magic would be scary. I would not want to discover the Oz Sisterhood and stuffs, but Dorothy seemed calmed, like she is used to the presence of Magic. As for Walsh, he seemed to know a lot about their land, magic and Rumplestiltskin. Wasn't there a time when Zelena came to Walsh and he said about Rumple being the most powerful sorcerer in all the lands, now how could Walsh know that if he were from the LWM as Rumple never really did step into Oz (only send associates Jefferson and Robin). Rumple is commonly known by almost every inhabitants in all the worlds except the LWM. Then there's the fact of the ability to use magic to open up portals (that can see that past and present during Zelena's visit) and also the power to magically poof the Glass Slippers to Zelena. I doubt an ordinary person from the LWM could even be able to do such magic. And when Walsh was kept imprisoment by Zelena, Zelena took over, and later send Walsh to New York to keep an eye on Emma. He knew he was in a LWM and that Zelena can't hurt him anymore, considering the fact that he could have known about the Curse before being send to New York. He could have just left Emma alone and live a life, but he didn't, maybe (speculation) he wanted to go home, meaning his home in Kansas (realm or world) back in the Magical Universe? So Kansas could be another world or realm that Dorothy and Walsh inhabites

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • So, I won't surprise anyone but just like nearly everyone on this thread, I do think we can't say Dorothy & Walsh are from LWM. The sentence in "The Doctor" is about the slippers, we can't affirm that Dorothy was with them or not at this moment. A lot of things could have happened off-screen without we ever got a confirmation or a hint. Of course, it could mean that she is from this land because it is definitely not enough as proof.

      Then, maybe I get too much in the details, but as far as we know, we don't have a proof that Walsh and Dorothy are from the same Kansas. They just said they are from Kansas. Nothing else. Maybe there is a world named Kansas, or a realm in another land like Land Without Color. We can't prove it. And this is the kind of element which need a perfect confirmation, something 100% sure.

      Whatever I personally think on this topic is not the problem, I do have my own opinion on it, but just like the others there is a big part of speculation in it. So, definitely and just like nearly everyone here: ambiguous. We definitely can't say for sure that Dorothy and Walsh are from the LWM or even the same Kansas.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • For all those who didn't say LWM or ambiguous, the mere fact that you're open to speculation means nothing is certain for sure. We wouldn't be speculating about something like "I think Snow White's hair is actually blonde" because we know 100% sure it is black. So yeah, seing so many theories and bits of speculation clearly shows that the nature of the object of discussion is pretty much ambiguous.

      Therefore, I suggest that we remove any kind of speculation from the articles, as saying they are from the Land Without Magic might affect the way many viewers see this topic, unfairly ruling out their personal interpretations.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Can't we just tweet the writers of 3-16 and 3-20 or Adam himself for clarification?

      And honestly, now the people who are also speculating that the Darlings aren't from the LWM are making me want to ask about that, too. Though I'm sure it's been confirmed that they are (which to me is a massive no-no)

      But the Dragon didn't say you had to bring magic over here for it to be used. Neither did Zelena or Rumple. Ingrid said it. The Dragon said magic in this world was rare, but possible. And Tamara said it's crossed over into our world many times before. So the LWM just doesn't have magic widespread available, but it's like Arendelle. It can have magic.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Can't we just tweet the writers of 3-16 and 3-20 or Adam himself for clarification?

      And honestly, now the people who are also speculating that the Darlings aren't from the LWM are making me want to ask about that, too. Though I'm sure it's been confirmed that they are (which to me is a massive no-no)

      But the Dragon didn't say you had to bring magic over here for it to be used. Neither did Zelena or Rumple. Ingrid said it. The Dragon said magic in this world was rare, but possible. And Tamara said it's crossed over into our world many times before. So the LWM just doesn't have magic widespread available, but it's like Arendelle. It can have magic.

      I already tried to ask Adam or others writers about the Kansas issue. No one has ever answered me.

      However, Adam already confirmed that the Darlings were from the London of the Land Without Magic ^^

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Fij30jigh110
      Fij30jigh110 removed this reply because:
      off topic. This is not about magic in the LWM, this is about a specific concern regarding editing some articles. Please go to a different thread for theories/opinions about magic/lwm/else.
      15:51, August 17, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • It's totally AMBIGUOUS. Although if I had to bet, I'd say it's a world of its own.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I was going to say ambiguous, then someone mentioned that Rumple quote about having to get to that other world. 

      That sells it for me, that Kansas is LWM Kansas.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Arctucrus wrote:
      I was going to say ambiguous, then someone mentioned that Rumple quote about having to get to that other world. 

      That sells it for me, that Kansas is LWM Kansas.

      Not to debate it, but how would Rumple know  where the slippers went. He just asked fro the slippers from Jefferson, lol. So, they can't be talking about the same world or Rumple was asking a stupid question because then he knew the answer.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Arctucrus wrote: I was going to say ambiguous, then someone mentioned that Rumple quote about having to get to that other world. 

      That sells it for me, that Kansas is LWM Kansas.

      I agree. The dialogue is the only element that actually says states something about this directly. The other things that people have mentioned, are speculation.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • And Jefferson offers to venture into other worlds, but Rumple states that magical lands are all the hat reaches, and none of those would be THE land

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Right now, we're talking about where is "Kansas" for Dorothy and Walsh. We should not forget that the sentence from "The Doctor" is about the slippers. There is no mention of a girl or a man in this sentence. Only the slippers. We can't know for sure that the slippers are still in Dorothy's possession. We have zero proof or zero element which can confirm, or even hint, that Dorothy has still the slippers. Saying that the sentence from "The Doctor" can also includes Dorothy is as speculative as all theories on this thread.

      Again, the sentence is about the slippers not Dorothy. Yeah, the sentence confirms that the slippers are in LWM. But it is also the case of Dorothy? Impossible to say. We don't know what happened to her, or even if Zelena really let her come back in her Kansas. She could have sent her to somewhere else? I agree with Killian on this one: when we see/read 205 & 320, and when we read all theories about Kansas on this thread, well it kinda proves that it is impossible to say for sure what is Kansas. Kansas from LWM? Kansas from LWC? Kansas as its own world? Eveything and all arguments are speculative in this discussion, none of them are 100% sure, so we should not add them as a "fact" on Dorothy's page when it is clearly not the case. It is kinda unprofessional.

      Then. From my point of view, there is not a real discussion for Walsh. Even if we agree to say that Dorothy is from LWM (which does not seem to be case right now), we still can argue that we don't have a proof that Walsh and Dorothy are from the same Kansas. Just look England for exemple; we have three different England in the canon of our show. We can easily imagine that there is another Kansas somewhere. Saying Walsh's Kansas = Dorothy's Kansas is a big speculation from us. So yeah, to me, the discussion about Walsh is kinda over? We can't prove anything about his Kansas, and saying he is from LWM cos "Dorothy is from LWM" (not saying it is the case ^^) is just a terrible argument. We should forget him in this discussion; but again still my opinion?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I agree with you Lady. We don't hve enough info. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I couldn't have said it better, kudos to Lady.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Okay. I personally think it should be left ambiguous until we either know for certain, or we never know. As for my opinion, I'm torn. Frankenstein is a little confused by Rumple having his "rosy complection" as I think Rumple says. Dorothy didn't seem to be confused, or wierded out by magic. Also, what people brought up time wise can be a little irrelevant. Something that I didn't get in season 3 was how they kept referring to the nine months between the curse revision and recasting "the missing year." Maybe time goes at different paces depending on the world because at the end of the 3rd season winter finale it says one year later.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Fij30jigh110
      Fij30jigh110 removed this reply because:
      off topic. This is not about magic in the LWM, this is about a specific concern regarding editing some articles. Please go to a different thread for theories/opinions about magic/lwm/else.
      15:50, August 17, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • I did watch "The Doctor" again recently and notice the speech between Rumple and Jefferson, and I feel it doesn't really clearly state the Glass Slippers to be in the LWM. Jefferson said it was in another land and Rumple mentioned he need the slippers to get to this other land. Both could have been referring to other worlds. Rumple could have been saying the LWM as the "other land" as he might had wanted to keep his secret to go tothe LWM. He revealed that the land is the LWM when Jefferson offered him a ride in the hat. So it isn't really clear about the Slippers whereabouts(Off topic)

      Kansas for me is still ambiguous, especially the cyclone part, I'm pretty sure to create a cyclone, a lot of magic is need and if a cyclone can appear in the LWM just like that to take Dorothy, it can't really be the LWM anymore. The other characters outside of Storybrooke that uses magic is perhaps only the Dragon and the Apperentice, and their magic isn't as strong as the cyclone.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Fij30jigh110
      Fij30jigh110 removed this reply because:
      off topic. This is not about magic in the LWM, this is about a specific concern regarding editing some articles. Please go to a different thread for theories/opinions about magic/lwm/else.
      15:49, August 17, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Fij30jigh110
      Fij30jigh110 removed this reply because:
      off topic. This is not about magic in the LWM, this is about a specific concern regarding editing some articles. Please go to a different thread for theories/opinions about magic/lwm/else.
      15:49, August 17, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Rumple and Jefferson could have been discussing when Zelena first used the slippers. Rumple being the guy who could see the future and when Jefferson mentioned that they had been moved to another land Rumple may have assumed he was referring to the fact that he knew the slippers would be used to go to the LWM but didn't know the details of when and how. Jefferson may not have realised the slippers were only traveling to the Enchanted Forest he may just have been told by Walsh that the slippers have gone. Jefferson did not seem to know anything more then they were in "another" land from OZ. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Fij30jigh110
      Fij30jigh110 removed this reply because:
      off topic. This is not about magic in the LWM, this is about a specific concern regarding editing some articles. Please go to a different thread for theories/opinions about magic/lwm/else.
      15:49, August 17, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • And, while this is off topic, Emma also used Magic in "Manhattan", after she learned that she was capable of it, when they were going through security at the airport.  Emma grabs Rumples arm after he has to reliquish the cloak that allows him to keep his memories. The only explanation, in my opinion, is that Emma tapped into her magic to help Rumple until he got the scarf back.

      Now, back on topic. I agree with everyone that says ambiguous.  There is not enough information to make any concrete decision. I'll even debunk the clothes aspect.  Dorothy was a farm girl from rural Kansas in the original story. It would not have been out of the question for the rural people of the 60's and even the 70's, to have more old-fashioned clothing.  They would not be up to date on current trends (many rural areas still aren't). So, I don't think you can really say with any certainty that her clothing was 30's clothing, as it would still be valid in the 60's, at least for the part of the country represented by Kansas. So the point is there is NOTHING that would indicate a preference for being in the LWM or being it's own realm (or part of some other realm). Hence, ambiguous.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I'd have to say ambiguous

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I'd say its pretty likely its in the LWM but it was also likely that Cruella's England was there as well and that wasn't so I say ambiguous. Perhaps a Kansas character infobox?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • No, we have a Character infobox for that kind of case.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Killian Jones wrote:
      No, we have a Character infobox for that kind of case.

      But both Dorothy and Walsh is listed with the LWM template infobox although there isn't any confirmation 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Onceuponatimeuser97 wrote:
      Killian Jones wrote:
      No, we have a Character infobox for that kind of case.
      But both Dorothy and Walsh is listed with the LWM template infobox although there isn't any confirmation 

      Because an admin decided to add these infoboxes, thinking the characters are from the LWM. It was decided to do this thread to revert the LWM infoboxes to the characters ones :)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • The infoboxes are now back to just "Characters". Thank you everybody! :)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • It's not confirmed, but it is looking very likely that Dorothy is from a Magical Kansas. She's returning in the present day in her 20's or 30's to face off with Zelena in Oz, fresh from her return from Storybrooke.

      As for Walsh, I would say it's looking like he's from that same world.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • A Spy in the Mirror
        Preparing Editor Spell
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.