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  • Hey guys! So this is my theory that we will get to see Cruella and Ursula (though namely Ursula) once more. My reasons to believe this? It has been noted that during filming of the episodes Heart of Gold, Sympathy for the De Vil and Lily (Episode) Merrin Dungey who portrays Ursula was on set at least twice. But the confusing part is that Ursula didn't appear in the former two and isn't credited in Lily (Episode)'s press release. Now this could have just been a deleted scene but would they really delete this many scenes of Ursula? It also needs to be noted that filming of the scene which occurred during filming of Lily (Episode) took place on a Saturday and that's not a regular filming time. So I believe that they were actually filming scenes for the finale or an upcoming episode. Merrin is done filming, she has brown hair again and Victoria seemingly is done too so it would make sense for the filmmakers to film their scenes then if they are just minor parts. Also note that in a recent interview with Josh Dallas he said that they trio of darkness would be in the finale. Now he could've just meant Gold and Maleficent but wouldn't he have just said that? So let me know what you guys think.

    Also one more thing. Look at the promo for "Darkness on the Edge of Town" and at the beginning I noticed that there is a scene of Ursula coming out from behind a tree in the Enchanted Forest. But we haven't seen this yet...

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    • Tysonjackson wrote: Hey guys! So this is my theory that we will get to see Cruella and Ursula (though namely Ursula) once more. My reasons to believe this? It has been noted that during filming of the episodes Heart of Gold, Sympathy for the De Vil and Lily (Episode) Merrin Dungey who portrays Ursula was on set at least twice. But the confusing part is that Ursula didn't appear in the former two and isn't credited in Lily (Episode)'s press release. Now this could have just been a deleted scene but would they really delete this many scenes of Ursula? It also needs to be noted that filming of the scene which occurred during filming of Lily (Episode) took place on a Saturday and that's not a regular filming time. So I believe that they were actually filming scenes for the finale or an upcoming episode. Merrin is done filming, she has brown hair again and Victoria seemingly is done too so it would make sense for the filmmakers to film their scenes then if they are just minor parts. Also note that in a recent interview with Josh Dallas he said that they trio of darkness would be in the finale. Now he could've just meant Gold and Maleficent but wouldn't he have just said that? So let me know what you guys think.

      Also one more thing. Look at the promo for "Darkness on the Edge of Town" and at the beginning I noticed that there is a scene of Ursula coming out from behind a tree in the Enchanted Forest. But we haven't seen this yet...

      Yes I've been wondering about the tree scene. It looked cool.

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    • Yeah I always assumed it would be in "Darkness on the Edge of Town" but we still have yet to see it.

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    • They could have just been promotional scenes and not for the actual show.

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    • I'm curious about this... "interview", cos strangely I never heard of it. Same for some of my friends who usually find all interviews from the cast :)

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    • http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/19/once-upon-a-times-prince-charming-crosses-the-good-to-evil-line-teases-new-big-bad/ Right here. You were the one who linked it in chat :)


      Executive producers Adam Horowitz and Eddy Kitsis have crafted a two-hour season finale. What can viewers expect from “Operation Mongoose?”

      We have the Trio of Darkness still in town to deal with. We have the Author to deal with. We have Zelena, who has now come to town, to deal with. And we have the potential of Emma going dark that we have to deal with. There’s a lot going down in Storybrooke.

      The fight between good and evil is always epic and that’s no exception in this season finale. This finale may be more of an internal struggle between good and evil than it is an outer thing.

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    • It does not mean at all the Queens will appear in the finale. he was just talking about the current situation of the protagonists. And the fact that all these events will going down to the finale.

      Cruella and Ursula won't be in the finale; both actresses were definitely not at Vancouver when they shoot the finale.

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    • But it definitely seems that they (again namely Ursula) will appear in either Mother or one of the parts of the finale. Merrin wasn't on set for nothing. It could be Mother cause I'm assuming we will probably get some Maleficent flashbacks.

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    • She was prolly reshooting some scenes, I heard it happened a lot this year.

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    • Possibly. But I'm gonna hold out hope that we'll get to see her at least one more time this season XD

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    • I'd like to see the REAL reason why they couldn't care for Lily and see both of them struggle a bit in the real world.

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    • And how does Cruella and this Ursula know Regina?

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    • I assume either reputation, Maleficent, or the golden statue is really this Ursula. The real question is how does Regina know.

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    • Tyson, whereas I would love it (I guess) if all Queens of Darkness were in the finale, the reasons you provide to back up your theory are flimsy at best. The finale was shot after 4.12 aired, so that scene with Ursula coming from behind a tree had to have been shot long before the finale was and I doubt they would use it at long last towards the end of the season. And as far as the actors shooting scenes ahead of time, that's not something that really happens, episodes have strict schedules, each comes with its own director, blah blah. The only exception I can think of would be when Meghan Ory was finally available to shoot material for season 3 and they incorporated her into 3.12 and 3.13. And I would take what Josh Dallas said with a grain of salt as well. :P This isn't to shoot you down, like I said, I'd like it if they appeared in the finale as well.

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    • The filming part is true but as Utter and I were talking about in chat yesterday maybe if they had a small scene for the finale (possibly only involving themselves and no other actors) it would've been much more logical to go ahead and shoot it then to have to bring them back out to Vancouver.

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    • We are going to see the evil queen in the mother episode so hopefully we can see the queens of darkness in that ep

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    • It's incredibly possible that they come back but just in flashbacks.

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    • BallerinaBelle wrote: It's incredibly possible that they come back but just in flashbacks.

      I hope they're in flashbacks I'd like to see how Cruella and this Ursula met the Evil Queen.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote: We have the Trio of Darkness still in town to deal with. We have the Author to deal with. We have Zelena, who has now come to town, to deal with. And we have the potential of Emma going dark that we have to deal with. There’s a lot going down in Storybrooke.

      The fight between good and evil is always epic and that’s no exception in this season finale. This finale may be more of an internal struggle between good and evil than it is an outer thing.

      Trio might mean Regina, Rumple and Maleficent, I've seen those 3 together on set a lot during the final episodes. Regina is not evil, but she has still been on team Villains for this arc.

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    • Regina has only been disguising as a villain and hasn't actually been a real villain though. Plus Rumple and crew know she's not on their side and Regina evened the leverage of Robin with Belle. I think her "villain arc" is either over or hasn't started yet.

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    • BallerinaBelle wrote: Regina has only been disguising as a villain and hasn't actually been a real villain though. Plus Rumple and crew know she's not on their side and Regina evened the leverage of Robin with Belle. I think her "villain arc" is either over or hasn't started yet.

      Um, Regina was a villain and now not a villain and not a hero. (Gosh, I dislike these words!)

      In real people words, Regina was really evil and now she's not so much. She performed an evil-grey area when taking Belle's heart and choosing to pretend to be evil.

      I know I can't change anything, but #RANT, no one uses words like villain and hero in real-life like this. There are people who do good things, bad things, confusing things, sad things, selfish things, etc., but that doesn't make them evil or good or .....a villain. If Snow and David did something bad, they just did something bad. They aren't villains. Regina made a lot of bad mistakes and became a villain. Now, she stopped doing selfish things and did good things. She's not a villain or sociopath, she's just a woman that made the right choice. Regina pretended to be "bad" and did a possibly bad act of using Belle's heart, but no, Regina isn't a villain.

      You can be a villain from perspective, but it doesn't define who you are. Emma killed Cruella (Who I hope to see in the Season Finale), but she didn't turn evil. Emma just did a morally grey and understandable thing to do. #RANTOVER

      Queens of Darkness refers to any combination of them and will likely only mean Maleficent or some partition thereof. It technically doesn't require all three, which might go to show that it could have just been the crowded Maleficent arc.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      BallerinaBelle wrote: Regina has only been disguising as a villain and hasn't actually been a real villain though. Plus Rumple and crew know she's not on their side and Regina evened the leverage of Robin with Belle. I think her "villain arc" is either over or hasn't started yet.

      Um, Regina was a villain and now not a villain and not a hero. (Gosh, I dislike these words!)

      In real people words, Regina was really evil and now she's not so much. She performed an evil-grey area when taking Belle's heart and choosing to pretend to be evil.

      I know I can't change anything, but #RANT, no one uses words like villain and hero in real-life like this. There are people who do good things, bad things, confusing things, sad things, selfish things, etc., but that doesn't make them evil or good or .....a villain. If Snow and David did something bad, they just did something bad. They aren't villains. Regina made a lot of bad mistakes and became a villain. Now, she stopped doing selfish things and did good things. She's not a villain or sociopath, she's just a woman that made the right choice. Regina pretended to be "bad" and did a possibly bad act of using Belle's heart, but no, Regina isn't a villain.

      You can be a villain from perspective, but it doesn't define who you are. Emma killed Cruella (Who I hope to see in the Season Finale), but she didn't turn evil. Emma just did a morally grey and understandable thing to do. #RANTOVER

      Queens of Darkness refers to any combination of them and will likely only mean Maleficent or some partition thereof. It technically doesn't require all three, which might go to show that it could have just been the crowded Maleficent arc.

      Actually I was referring to

      Eskaver wrote: Chameleon-Guy

      Tysonjackson wrote: We have the Trio of Darkness still in town to deal with. We have the Author to deal with. We have Zelena, who has now come to town, to deal with. And we have the potential of Emma going dark that we have to deal with. There’s a lot going down in Storybrooke.

      The fight between good and evil is always epic and that’s no exception in this season finale. This finale may be more of an internal struggle between good and evil than it is an outer thing.

      Trio might mean Regina, Rumple and Maleficent, I've seen those 3 together on set a lot during the final episodes. Regina is not evil, but she has still been on team Villains for this arc.

      So hence I was only referring to the fact that Regina has not been a real villain in this arc.

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        • Chameleon-Guy wrote not Esakver.** Sorry.
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    • Perfectly fine! Sorry for the random rant, lol!

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    • Sorry for not being more clear about who the response was towards, that was my mistake.

      I agree with your "rant" (I think it's just a discussion or opinion, not a rant since it wasn't violently emotional or anything) though and there is an over-characterization of "heroes" and "villains" in this show. Most people don't fall on either extreme and the few that do are rare. (And it wasn't random at all, totally relevant to Regina and whether or not she's a hero or villain.)

      It's extreme that Regina has killed so many people but it was incredibly extreme for her mother to rip out her love's heart and crush it in front of her face. It's a rare demented person who wouldn't be greatly affected by something like that one way or another.

      I think the "villain"/"hero" concept [should] comes from a place of personal choice. We cant choose what others do to us or what our circumstances are but we can choose how to deal with them. I think it's the accumulation of all of our choices and how we use those choices that determines the hero/villain thing as most people don't flip flop between doing horrible things and being considerate. For example, Snow's mother was vain, conceited and a bully in her youth but she clearly learned from her mistakes and decided to become a better person. Cora on the other hand was bullied but she then reacted by making up lies (about spinning gold) and turning to thievery to cover even other lies (bribe to keep pregnancy secret). She had real love with Rumple and traded it for power and revenge. That's a choice that really shows much more about their character [to me] than "should I or should I not shoot the woman threatening to kill my son?"

      The hardest person in the world to have as a villain is one's own mother because she is supposed to be the one who gave you life and loves you more than anything. Regina had to grow up with a mother who didn't love her, didn't teach her how to love, and stole away her chance at love. Now that Regina has love in her life again via Henry, I think it shows that deep down Regina has always been a good person in a horrible circumstance who chose to embrace it instead of fight against it. Your choices do define you but that's why they're your choices, so you can choose for yourself how to respond to situations. No one is perfect but that shouldn't be an excuse to continue making bad decisions that you know bring about nothing but negative results. Emma killed Cruella but I saw it totally justified since she didn't know that Cruella couldn't kill and there is no redemption for a sociopath like Cruella who is biologically/physiologically incapable of remorse and sympathy.

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    • No, it was really mine. But I could help but derail the thread. So, I posted my rant on the appropriate thread:

      http://onceuponatime.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:212514

      Thanks for agreeing! Now, back on topic, I wanted to point out to the thread as a whole and the participants that when they say QOD that usually means Maleficent with a chance of SeaDevil. Snowing's past with QOD is mostly their past with Maleficent with a little SeaDevil action. Regina's past with QOD is pretty much only Maleficent. SO, I take QOD to literally be Mal, only in the finale or mostly Mal and minor mentions or cameos by Cruella and Ursula.

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    • I hope that Isaac writes a note that Cruella would come back to life because he loves her (aldo her cruelness), but that Cruella kills him and takes the magic pen and ink.

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    • I think we may see Ursula and Cruella in a small flashback scene in the finale (which may have been filmed earlier than the finale for whatever reason). After all, they like to have alot of actors come back in the finale episode(s), especially ones that are "off" the show. Think Belle and Huntsman in Season 1 or Neal in Season 3.

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    • Neal was still a regular at the end of season 3 though. But yes, it was a surprise to see him.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote: I think we may see Ursula and Cruella in a small flashback scene in the finale (which may have been filmed earlier than the finale for whatever reason). After all, they like to have alot of actors come back in the finale episode(s), especially ones that are "off" the show. Think Belle and Huntsman in Season 1 or Neal in Season 3.

      I think we may see the duo tonight abandoning Lily...at least I hope so! (I do not condone leaving children unattended in the woods to die!)

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote: I think we may see Ursula and Cruella in a small flashback scene in the finale (which may have been filmed earlier than the finale for whatever reason). After all, they like to have alot of actors come back in the finale episode(s), especially ones that are "off" the show. Think Belle and Huntsman in Season 1 or Neal in Season 3.

      I think we may see the duo tonight abandoning Lily...at least I hope so! (I do not condone leaving children unattended in the woods to die!)

      We're not. Neither were on the press release unless they are with stunt doubles like in 3x16.

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    • Tails-make-the-fox wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote: I think we may see Ursula and Cruella in a small flashback scene in the finale (which may have been filmed earlier than the finale for whatever reason). After all, they like to have alot of actors come back in the finale episode(s), especially ones that are "off" the show. Think Belle and Huntsman in Season 1 or Neal in Season 3.

      I think we may see the duo tonight abandoning Lily...at least I hope so! (I do not condone leaving children unattended in the woods to die!)

      We're not. Neither were on the press release unless they are with stunt doubles like in 3x16.

      What is 3x16 a reference too?

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Tails-make-the-fox wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote: I think we may see Ursula and Cruella in a small flashback scene in the finale (which may have been filmed earlier than the finale for whatever reason). After all, they like to have alot of actors come back in the finale episode(s), especially ones that are "off" the show. Think Belle and Huntsman in Season 1 or Neal in Season 3.

      I think we may see the duo tonight abandoning Lily...at least I hope so! (I do not condone leaving children unattended in the woods to die!)

      We're not. Neither were on the press release unless they are with stunt doubles like in 3x16.

      What is 3x16 a reference too?

      When Zelena saw Cora abandoning her.

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    • Tails-make-the-fox wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      Tails-make-the-fox wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote: I think we may see Ursula and Cruella in a small flashback scene in the finale (which may have been filmed earlier than the finale for whatever reason). After all, they like to have alot of actors come back in the finale episode(s), especially ones that are "off" the show. Think Belle and Huntsman in Season 1 or Neal in Season 3.

      I think we may see the duo tonight abandoning Lily...at least I hope so! (I do not condone leaving children unattended in the woods to die!)

      We're not. Neither were on the press release unless they are with stunt doubles like in 3x16.

      What is 3x16 a reference too?

      When Zelena saw Cora abandoning her.

      Oh, okay.

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    • Isn't it possible that Merrin was filming for the Oscar promo during that time frame? The one with all 3 Queens of Darkness, Rumple and Emma. 

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    • No, cos that happened before S4B premiered. What it seems to me is that Merrin, Victoria and Kristin were flying out to do that convention interview they did that also included Lana.

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    • Rena Charming wrote:
      No, cos that happened before S4B premiered. What it seems to me is that Merrin, Victoria and Kristin were flying out to do that convention interview they did that also included Lana.

      But they had already filmed up to 419 by the time 4B premiered. Chances are that promo was filmed much later than 412 was filmed. 

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    • That's right, I forgot we knew about Scarlet Beauty before 4.12 premiered, and we knew from the filming for 4.19. I still maintain that the pic with three of them saying the Queens were flying together again was about that intervention.

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    • I asked this question for the EWHotSeat and Edward said nope that they will not be returning :( So either they re-shot scenes or they have deleted scenes that we will hopefully see on the DVD. :)

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      I asked this question for the EWHotSeat and Edward said nope that they will not be returning :( So either they re-shot scenes or they have deleted scenes that we will hopefully see on the DVD. :)

      Well, there you go for the fans of the DVD. Still makes the QOD underutilzed in a sense. 5 villains + an Author + Lily in nine episodes hardly seems fair.

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    • I know. Ursula, Cruella and Maleficent deserve way more screentime considering how much they were built up. Maleficent's still around but it looks like she wont be much of a villain in the next two eps :(

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    • I would wait on judging how much of a villian Maleficent will be.  When Snowing came to her in the Mayor's office, she was very diplomatic, but also very clear. (She's smart, and knows when discretion really is the better part of revenge). She is not about to forgive the Charmings any time soon. And based on what we've seen of Lily so far, I don't expect her to be any more forgiving (in fact, I really expect her to be gunning for Snowing). Now, if Mother and Daughter team up, that could be a wicked, evil, magnificent combination of villiany.

      And it's interesting that, even with Cruella's sociopathic personality, Chernabog still picked Malefecent as the one with the most potential for darkness. Granted that Cruella was going to have trouble converting potential darkness into kinetic darkenss until she could get that scrap of paper back from the Author, that does not change the potential that is there. I think the real question is who would Chernabog go after between Lily, Emma, and Maleficent (Emma already 'beat' Regina, and Mal 'won' over the other QOD).

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    • I think maybe there was something to the whole Darkness thing. Sure, it could've just been something to show us what the Chernabog was after in Storybrooke, but as you said why wouldn't he have went after Cruella? I think us fans are becoming a bit too sympathetic of Mal when she's done plenty of terrible things. Same with Ursula. She was perfectly okay with killing Belle, Charming and Snow and they had done nothing to her but her tentacles got "Bored".

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    • I don't really understand Ursula as a villain (or even who she is really relative to the first Ursula we saw and heard of on this show). There was 1 Ursula who seemed to semi-frighten Regina but didn't seem evil and almost seemed restricted by the sea? Then you have the Queen of Darkness Ursula who talks a lot of evil but when it all came down to it was really just a girl who missed her mother and was rebelling against her father. What kind of a villain is that? It wasn't even implied that she did anything villain-worthy (well, ever but primarily) in between changing her fin to tentacles and getting to Storybrooke.

      Regina became Mayor in the real world, Maleficent guarded Dark Curse in the real world, Cruella was living rich and snotty in the real world, but Cruella was humbly working in an aquarium with her sea "companions". The first 3 villains kept a form of their power in some way in the real world but not Ursula, she was more of a regular person. It almost makes me think that Queens of Darkness was more Maleficent, Cruella, and Regina instead of Ursula.

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    • That is confusing though because it's heavily implied by Ursula (QOD) the she was a Queen of the Sea, as she tells Maleficent to call her "your Majesty" and asks Rumple why she had to leave the sea for their meeting. But we never get any implications of this elsewhere. At least this fit when we assumed she was the Goddess.

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    • Tysonjackson wrote:
      That is confusing though because it's heavily implied by Ursula (QOD) the she was a Queen of the Sea, as she tells Maleficent to call her "your Majesty" and asks Rumple why she had to leave the sea for their meeting. But we never get any implications of this elsewhere. At least this fit when we assumed she was the Goddess.

      Also, Ursula is the only Queen of the QOD. I'm guessing it goes like Ursula (Queen) Maleficent(Of) Cruella(Darkness), lol. 

      I think they didn't find the right balance to everything. They did great, but the Villainds went from Mal, Cruella, Ursual and Rumple to Rumple and Isaac. So much for queens. At first, I thought they would represent the stages of falling into darkness, but they didn't and got rid of the first one within four episodes then another three. It's pretty much almost false advertisement (not that I'm shocked).

      Ursula may have done something in between those two hundred years of something. I guess she sunk more ships or whatever. I can't picture Ursula actually doing anything. The only thing she did was usurp the throne...and we never saw her besides some tentacles and slight bitterness.

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    • Yeah, its like the three Queens were set up to be these Big Bads of S4 and now its just Rumple, Zelena and Isaac and two of three Queens aren't even appearing anymore.

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    • Agree... At this point, the QoD look like filler

      Cruella got one of the best OUaT episodes so far, though

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
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