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  • So in another thread people were talking about continuity flaws and retcons, and it was suggested to be it's own thread. So hear it is. I personally don't think there are any flaws that can't be explained away, but other people feel differently, so feel free to share and discuss.

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    • The one I'm still waiting for them to explain is season one Snow White saying to Prince Charming that the Queen was jealous because she was prettier than her and wanted her dead because of it.

      Then there's the heavily implied almost 99.8% possibility that Anastasia could be Cinderella's stepsister, but if that's true, the two stepsisters and stepmother's brief appearance in "The Price of Gold" would not really work canon wise. Either that or the stepsisters and stepmother were deliberately going to the ball in hideous disguises. XD

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    • I don't think what Snow White said about the queen being jealous of her for being pretty can be considered a continuity flaw. It's not like they showed us something and then changed it. Snow might have been unwilling to talk about how she couldn't keep Regina's secret, idk.

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      I don't think what Snow White said about the queen being jealous of her for being pretty can be considered a continuity flaw. It's not like they showed us something and then changed it. Snow might have been unwilling to talk about how she couldn't keep Regina's secret, idk.


      The way Snow said it, she made it sound like that was the actual legit reason why Regina wanted her dead. Although, it's puzzling because later Prince Charming asks her if she did ruin the Queen's life, and Snow reluctantly says she did.

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    • That was the pilot though. Lots of shows sometime disregard things from the pilot episode.

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    • Snow White can lie too :P

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    • A big continuity error is the Jabberwocky. Is she the same one Jack fought?

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    • I could easily believe our Jabber isn't/wasn't the only one.

      Or, that Jack is a liar. If there's anyone I could use that for, it's her XD

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    • Yeah, but how'd she get a Wonderland mushroom?

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    • Any number of explanations:

      • She bought it from someone who'd been there
      • She found it (maybe Jefferson dropped one? lol)
      • she stole it from someone who'd been there
      • She went to Wonderland and got one, but maybe didn't actually fight a/the Jabberwocky

      I mean, if you want reasonable explanations for something that seems like/is an inconsistency or retcon, we have plenty of characters who are shady enough to write it off as a lie, ya know? XD I think we easily get into this habit of taking character statements as gospel, and it doesn't have to be.

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      That was the pilot though. Lots of shows sometime disregard things from the pilot episode.


      The event I was referencing did not take place in the Pilot, though. It took place in "Snow Falls".

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    • Also, the White Rabbit. This dude apparently has the power to go to any world and could've been extremely useful to Rumple, Jefferson, Cora, etc. He was seemingly never approached by any of them and Rumple called Wonderland annoying and useless.

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    • I would say they've never heard of him? XD


      I think I'll just hang out in this thread and offer explanations XD

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    • Applegirl wrote:
      Avatar Beta wrote:
      That was the pilot though. Lots of shows sometime disregard things from the pilot episode.

      The event I was referencing did not take place in the Pilot, though. It took place in "Snow Falls".

      No, I'm pretty sure it was the pilot.

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    • I want to know how Zelena could banish Glinda from Oz to the Enchanted Forest, when it was mentioned numerous times, no one can travel between realms with only a few exceptions. 

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      Also, the White Rabbit. This dude apparently has the power to go to any world and could've been extremely useful to Rumple, Jefferson, Cora, etc. He was seemingly never approached by any of them and Rumple called Wonderland annoying and useless.



      Yes you're right 

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    • ^^This happens a lot in shows like this where something is "impossible" but tends to become less so as the show continues XD

      I've thought about this myself, and the way I explain it to myself is this: "People think _____ is difficult because they simply don't know about ____". Or, "They can't do it, so they assume it's difficult"

      Just fill in the blanks with "traveling between worlds" and "this particular method or methods".

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      Applegirl wrote:
      Avatar Beta wrote:
      That was the pilot though. Lots of shows sometime disregard things from the pilot episode.

      The event I was referencing did not take place in the Pilot, though. It took place in "Snow Falls".
      No, I'm pretty sure it was the pilot.


      Hmm... maybe I'm remembering wrong then? It has been a while since I've watched the Pilot in its entirety.

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      Also, the White Rabbit. This dude apparently has the power to go to any world and could've been extremely useful to Rumple, Jefferson, Cora, etc. He was seemingly never approached by any of them and Rumple called Wonderland annoying and useless.

      I don't think Rumple knows every single magical creature in all worlds, because even in the same world, he don't know anything about Ingrid and her magical ability until she visited him. Plus, I think they implied the White Rabbit can only creates portals to magical worlds, so actually yes, he is useless to Rumple.

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    • AuntieJoans wrote:

      I don't think Rumple knows every single magical creature in all worlds, because even in the same world, he don't know anything about Ingrid and her magical ability until she visited him. Plus, I think they implied the White Rabbit can only creates portals to magical worlds, so actually yes, he is useless to Rumple.

      ^^^This too. We can also add in that Rumple was singularly focused on his plan to find his son, and likely wouldn't have cared much about something/someone that couldn't aid him in that quest.

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    • The only flaw I could think is about the timeline and the dark curse. Rumple mentioned the dark curse would affect all lands in the original script, but apparently it didn't even reach Arendelle in the same world. I know what Rumple mentioned didn't make it to the final cut, so it may not be true to the story, but what about Wonderland? If it didn't affect by the dark curse at all, why Anastasia and others were still young when Will, someone frozen in Storybrooke for 28 years, returned?

      Also, Alice left Wonderland for a year until Will took her back, but Will had spent 28 years in our world already. So, is 28 years in our world, equal to 1 year in Victorian England? It didn't make sense if the dark curse couldn't reach other worlds.

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    • It could be possibly explained that the curse did not touch Arendelle because Ingrid froze the kingdom indefinitely after Elsa got trapped in the urn. I believe it's implied Arendelle only unfroze after Ingrid had to use a lot of magic to cast the spell of shattered sight, which caused the kingdom to unfreeze.

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    • Or the Curse did go there and no one noticed because they were frozen.... XD

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    • From what I can remember, while Cora was in Wonderland, she did have the White Rabbit kidnapped. I'm assuming that is because she wished to return to the Enchanted Forest.

      I think the White Rabbit can only transport himself and other people to places with magic.

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    • Jack mentioned that she slayed a creature called the Jabberwock.

      The character that was present in OUATiW was known as the Jabberwocky. However, this is most likely nitpicking on my behalf, and it was a throw-away reference that the show made in Season 2 because they most likely didn't know that they would be introducing the Jabberwocky later and they had to give Jack a reason to have Wonderland mushroom.

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    • I'm wondering about what Aurora said to Phillip in Broken about she sacrificed herself to Maleficent. in Enter the Dragon, Mal just pricked her finger while mid-protest (that was really disappointing for such a built-up story). people are saying Aurora could be lying but I don't think she is the type of person to lie (before Zelena). she may have some memory problem while cursed but unlikely. this is the problem when you write a story backwards, you have to remember what you already established before making expansions.

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    • SnowKingTE wrote: I'm wondering about what Aurora said to Phillip in Broken about she sacrificed herself to Maleficent. 

      Aurorna never said any such thing to Phillip.... she said it to Mulan. It can easily be viewed as Aurora did not want Mulan to be correct, about not knowing the first thing about sacrifice. 

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    • Applegirl wrote:
      It could be possibly explained that the curse did not touch Arendelle because Ingrid froze the kingdom indefinitely after Elsa got trapped in the urn. I believe it's implied Arendelle only unfroze after Ingrid had to use a lot of magic to cast the spell of shattered sight, which caused the kingdom to unfreeze.

      But we know the dark curse couldn't even reach some places in the same world, like the island where Ariel and Eric lived, and wherever Blackbeard was when Hook traded the Jolly Roger with him. It seems like the dark curse only affected EF, but Arendelle and Agrabah were unharmed.

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    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:

      SnowKingTE wrote: I'm wondering about what Aurora said to Phillip in Broken about she sacrificed herself to Maleficent. 

      Aurorna never said any such thing to Phillip.... she said it to Mulan. It can easily be viewed as Aurora did not want Mulan to be correct, about not knowing the first thing about sacrifice. 

      are you sure? well I haven't watched Broken or Season 2 in ages so this is based off what other people said and memory. I'm pretty sure she said she sacrificed herself.

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    • SnowKingTE wrote:

      ChocolatEyes613 wrote:

      SnowKingTE wrote: I'm wondering about what Aurora said to Phillip in Broken about she sacrificed herself to Maleficent. 
      Aurorna never said any such thing to Phillip.... she said it to Mulan. It can easily be viewed as Aurora did not want Mulan to be correct, about not knowing the first thing about sacrifice. 
      are you sure? well I haven't watched Broken or Season 2 in ages so this is based off what other people said and memory. I'm pretty sure she said she sacrificed herself.

      Mulan: How did you end up here in your cursed state?

      Aurora: You're not the only one who knows about sacrifice.

      Maleficent would like to kill Aurora's parents, but she wanted to see them suffering from the loss of their daughter, which means Aurora had sacrificed herself for her parents.

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    • Although, based on what we saw in Enter the Dragon, Aurora's "Sacrifice" did not seem very sacrificial, since it did not even appear to be willing.

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    • Plus, I think they implied the White Rabbit can only creates portals to magical worlds, so actually yes, he is useless to Rumple.


      The White Rabbit was able to create portals to both Storybrooke and Victorian England.

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    • CTrent wrote:
      Plus, I think they implied the White Rabbit can only creates portals to magical worlds, so actually yes, he is useless to Rumple.


      The White Rabbit was able to create portals to both Storybrooke and Victorian England.

      He only created a portal to Storybrooke after magic had been released (by Gold at the end of season 1), and Victorian England is a magical world (as stated by Eddy and Adam).

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    • The biggest flaw i've seen so far is the creation/stolen dark curse. Before the QOD entrance, Rumple has been saying the he created the dark curse. However, after that scene where he tricked the QOD it was suddenly that the dark curse originated form that cave guarded by the Chernalbolg.

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    • TheSamTrickster wrote: The biggest flaw i've seen so far is the creation/stolen dark curse. Before the QOD entrance, Rumple has been saying the he created the dark curse. However, after that scene where he tricked the QOD it was suddenly that the dark curse originated form that cave guarded by the Chernalbolg.

      Maybe he's just claiming he did ;) Or, since he modified it, he feels like he created the specific one the Queen used.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      TheSamTrickster wrote: The biggest flaw i've seen so far is the creation/stolen dark curse. Before the QOD entrance, Rumple has been saying the he created the dark curse. However, after that scene where he tricked the QOD it was suddenly that the dark curse originated form that cave guarded by the Chernalbolg.

      Maybe he's just claiming he did ;) Or, since he modified it, he feels like he created the specific one the Queen used.

      Its unlikely he modified he. What he told QOD during the meeting at mal's castle about the dark curse is exactly what he told regina, which means before he got a hold of it he already knew everything it does, which gives anyone who cast it "their happy ending"/whatever they want. so what exactly is there to modify? just curious. 

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    • TheSamTrickster wrote:
      Utter solitude wrote:

      TheSamTrickster wrote: The biggest flaw i've seen so far is the creation/stolen dark curse. Before the QOD entrance, Rumple has been saying the he created the dark curse. However, after that scene where he tricked the QOD it was suddenly that the dark curse originated form that cave guarded by the Chernalbolg.

      Maybe he's just claiming he did ;) Or, since he modified it, he feels like he created the specific one the Queen used.
      Its unlikely he modified he. What he told QOD during the meeting at mal's castle about the dark curse is exactly what he told regina, which means before he got a hold of it he already knew everything it does, which gives anyone who cast it "their happy ending"/whatever they want. so what exactly is there to modify? just curious. 

      Well, he added the Emma (savior) loophole, that wasn't in it originally, at least.

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    • TheSamTrickster wrote:
      Utter solitude wrote:

      TheSamTrickster wrote: The biggest flaw i've seen so far is the creation/stolen dark curse. Before the QOD entrance, Rumple has been saying the he created the dark curse. However, after that scene where he tricked the QOD it was suddenly that the dark curse originated form that cave guarded by the Chernalbolg.

      Maybe he's just claiming he did ;) Or, since he modified it, he feels like he created the specific one the Queen used.
      Its unlikely he modified he. What he told QOD during the meeting at mal's castle about the dark curse is exactly what he told regina, which means before he got a hold of it he already knew everything it does, which gives anyone who cast it "their happy ending"/whatever they want. so what exactly is there to modify? just curious. 

      Yeah he Added the drop of true love potion, and modifiyed the curse so that Emma could break it and that if the caster ever killed Emma then the curse would break 

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    • But, if rumple added those things to the actual curse, wouldn't they have also been a part of Peter Pan's curse, or Mary Margarets? And yet they weren't.

      No, I think what is was is that the curse that Rumple Stole was the foundation for his curse.  The base part of the curse essentially teleports an entire kingdom to a different place, which is what happened with Mary Margaret's curse. but for the addition of the Amnesia potion, everyone would have arrived with their memories fully intact, and as it was it was just a year's worth of living that was wiped. Regina's original casting completely changed everyone. Who knows what Peter Pan's would have ended up doing, but it wouldn't have been pretty, I'm sure.

      Where Rumple comes in is alterations in the way it was cast to meet certain conditions, and this is what he had to train Regina in.  I mean, seriously, Snow was able to cast the base form of the curse with only a little help from Regina, so that part can't be that difficult.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      But, if rumple added those things to the actual curse, wouldn't they have also been a part of Peter Pan's curse, or Mary Margarets? And yet they weren't.

      No, I think what is was is that the curse that Rumple Stole was the foundation for his curse.  The base part of the curse essentially teleports an entire kingdom to a different place, which is what happened with Mary Margaret's curse. but for the addition of the Amnesia potion, everyone would have arrived with their memories fully intact, and as it was it was just a year's worth of living that was wiped. Regina's original casting completely changed everyone. Who knows what Peter Pan's would have ended up doing, but it wouldn't have been pretty, I'm sure.

      Where Rumple comes in is alterations in the way it was cast to meet certain conditions, and this is what he had to train Regina in.  I mean, seriously, Snow was able to cast the base form of the curse with only a little help from Regina, so that part can't be that difficult.

      Did Pan not tell Felix that he was going to turn Stroybrook into the "new neverland" and that his curse would kill all the inhabatince(that is why regina had to undo the curse...so save everyone from dieing)

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    • Actually, Pan told Felix that the curse would create a new neverland, but nothing about KILLING he inhabitants. Instead, I think that he said that it would trap the inhabitants without their memories (like the first curse), but would not have the savior clause.

      However, even though Pan is even older than Rumple, I doubt he actually did that much research into the Dark Curse, so I question how much he actually knew about the effects of the curse. His whole purpose was to find the boy that had the heart of the truest believer. I think he was just guessing (about the dark curse) based on what he knew of the curse Regina cast.

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    • I strongly think that the only thing added to the curse is the drop of truest love potion so that emma can be the saviour. Other than that the dark curse is as is. Rumple during the meeting with QOD "we are looking for a dark curse that will give everyone their happy ending". so that was already in there he didn't add or remove anything to make it anything less or more. The love potion is his way of breaking the curse so that he can find his son, which eventually backfired seeing as it created a spell in the town line during S1. 

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Actually, Pan told Felix that the curse would create a new neverland, but nothing about KILLING he inhabitants. Instead, I think that he said that it would trap the inhabitants without their memories (like the first curse), but would not have the savior clause.

      However, even though Pan is even older than Rumple, I doubt he actually did that much research into the Dark Curse, so I question how much he actually knew about the effects of the curse. His whole purpose was to find the boy that had the heart of the truest believer. I think he was just guessing (about the dark curse) based on what he knew of the curse Regina cast.

      Your right, i must have herd it wrong.



      But Pan was in Henrys body at the time, maybe he had access to his memories...so he would know everything about the curse.


      And is it just me or was Felix in love with Pan(kinda seemed like Stockholm Syndrome to me)


      It is a bit hard to say anything is a "continuity flaw" when the show is still going..for all you know 5 episodes from now we could have a flash back of rumple using the curse he stole as a template to create his own dark curse.

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    • The problem with the creation of a New Dark curse from the base one is you need to know what the Base one is about. And it seems like the Dark Curse remained in the Orb until Regina broke it in The Thing You Love Most.

      Unless Rumple magically took out look at it and put it back in or put the new altered Curse back in.

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    • Eddiefunny wrote: The problem with the creation of a New Dark curse from the base one is you need to know what the Base one is about. And it seems like the Dark Curse remained in the Orb until Regina broke it in The Thing You Love Most.

      Unless Rumple magically took out look at it and put it back in or put the new altered Curse back in.

      I think Rumple removed it and either made a copy or altered it and then it went to Regina and then to Mal who put it in an orb for her staff.

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    • ^^This. There was a scroll. Scrolls can be copied. I agree that that's likely what happened.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      ^^This. There was a scroll. Scrolls can be copied. I agree that that's likely what happened.

      This is very true. Regina ripped apart the dark curse in order to reverse pan's curse. However, if you know the ingredients, u don't need the scroll which suggest that there is only one type of Dark Curse. i.e. Regina told Snow how to enact the curse, so there must only be one DC is what i'm trying to say.  

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    • I am also very curious, if rumple did alter the curse, I mean wouldn't u alter the most crucial piece of the orignal curse in order for it to be more convenient for rumple. I.e. it would have made sense for him to alter the criteria "kill the thing u love most" lol, i mean he wouldn't have needed anyone for that, he could have just cast it himself from the beginning, which makes me think that the Dark curse is as is. 

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    • I agree, mostly. It seems to be a recipe that can be altered, which is just what Rumple and then Zelena did. They added things to it.

      I'd also go so far as to say that Regina's called for extra ingredients she was specifically trying to ruin happy endings. (Like the hair from the darkest souls, etc)

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    • Yeah, agreed. The stolen curse we saw was likely just a base. It seems to grant a wish and can even traverse realms to do so. Example: Pan's curse was just going to put up the time-loop, non-aging spell back up with false memories. It was the only Dark Curse that wasn't going to travel across worlds.

      So the dark curse is like the wishing star, except on a bigger scale, able to be used by most and able to be molded to whatever your dark desires may be.

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    • Applegirl wrote:

      Then there's the heavily implied almost 99.8% possibility that Anastasia could be Cinderella's stepsister, but if that's true, the two stepsisters and stepmother's brief appearance in "The Price of Gold" would not really work canon wise. Either that or the stepsisters and stepmother were deliberately going to the ball in hideous disguises. XD

      Nah, that's just actors switching. It sometimes happens in longer-running shows where the actors for previously bit parts end up replaced. See: Marty McFly's girlfriend in Back to the Future. It's really the same character, you just kind of have to ignore the bit where they look completely different.

      Alternatively, you could say that once Jafar pulled off his "Change the Laws of Magic" spell, he changed the past to make Anastasia a lot prettier, since he was making out with her quite a bit to torment Will in those last two episodes of Wonderland. Change the past far enough back, no one knows any different, not even the camera crew for the new spin-off show. ;)

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    • We're forgetting the mother of all retcons / continuity errors:

      1) Jefferson's (very limited) portal to the past in An Apple As Red As Blood.

      2) The Dragon using "active powers" in Hong Kong.

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    • GothicNarcissus wrote: We're forgetting the mother of all retcons / continuity errors:

      1) Jefferson's (very limited) portal to the past in An Apple As Red As Blood.

      2) The Dragon using "active powers" in Hong Kong.

      The Dragon will always be an error. He has no magical item, so magic shouldn't work. Especially magic smoke being found in a magicless world.

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    • The way that I envision that Hat scene from AAARAB is that the hat portaled to where the apple had been dropped some 30 years ago and got the apple from present day. Being a magical apple, it had not rotted, and the critters around would have left it alone because of the embedded sleeping curse.

      I think it's just the way that scene was filmed and edited that made it seem like it was reaching into the past.

      Anyway, that's my take on it. Others have differing opinions, and I'm OK with that.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote: The way that I envision that Hat scene from AAARAB is that the hat portaled to where the apple had been dropped some 30 years ago and got the apple from present day. Being a magical apple, it had not rotted, and the critters around would have left it alone because of the embedded sleeping curse.

      I think it's just the way that scene was filmed and edited that made it seem like it was reaching into the past.

      Anyway, that's my take on it. Others have differing opinions, and I'm OK with that.

      I agree completely.

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    • GothicNarcissus wrote: We're forgetting the mother of all retcons / continuity errors:

      1) Jefferson's (very limited) portal to the past in An Apple As Red As Blood.

      2) The Dragon using "active powers" in Hong Kong.

      1- I'm not sure what you're calling the retcon here. Its lack of power? Storybrooke had no magic at the time, and the item Regina gave up to use the hat was just a ring- small amount of power, small result. The hat clearly needs a ton of magic to operate.

      2- The Dragon could have had some magical object we didn't see or hear about.

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    • Oh, correction or rather a note. The Dragon had some sort of Medallion on. Perhaps that held his magic. I assume even Zelena would be able to use magic outside of Storybrooke if she had her pendant.

      (All Rumple needed was a ...wait why doesn't the dagger count as a magical item?)

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    • maybe using the item he draws power from would weaken him in the Land Without Magic? Or he's just not willing to try it?

      I mean, Gold has extensive skills even without magic. He managed that whole plot with Belle contacting "a professor at Oxford" sans magic.

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    • Utter solitude wrote: maybe using the item he draws power from would weaken him in the Land Without Magic? Or he's just not willing to try it?

      I mean, Gold has extensive skills even without magic. He managed that whole plot with Belle contacting "a professor at Oxford" sans magic.

      I guess it's because the dagger is connected to magical being (which can't exist in a world without magic). So, the dagger is just a well focus and source of power since it possesses the magical Dark One or rather the Dark One's curse. So, I assume Rumple was trying to cleave himself of the dagger to get rid of the dagger dependence but keep the Dark One's curse/ magic. It would have been cool if he was trying to cleave to stop the darkness, but plot points seem to drop like flies from arc to arc.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      GothicNarcissus wrote: We're forgetting the mother of all retcons / continuity errors:

      1) Jefferson's (very limited) portal to the past in An Apple As Red As Blood.

      2) The Dragon using "active powers" in Hong Kong.

      1- I'm not sure what you're calling the retcon here. Its lack of power? Storybrooke had no magic at the time, and the item Regina gave up to use the hat was just a ring- small amount of power, small result. The hat clearly needs a ton of magic to operate.

      2- The Dragon could have had some magical object we didn't see or hear about.

      The retcon is, up until that point there was no implication at all that time-travel between lands was not possible. In that very scene, Jefferson himself told Regina, "Then you need to direct me to the time and place where this object exists". I specified the portal was very limited because no, technically no one time-travelled yet at that point, it was just a small opening. Which as of now is a bit "awkward" to recall.

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    • How about Maleficent's horns?

      And didn't Regina say (S 1 or 2) something about bringing people to Storybrooke she NEEDED. That's always irked me because why would she need Pongo or Grumpy over say the White Rabbit, or idk... Jafar?

      Also, what about how confident Rumple was about bringing Maleficent back from the dead, but he can't bring Bae back? This just doesn't make sense.

      Also, how Rumple basically shrugged off the fact that Regina locked up Belle for 28 years, but the straw that broke the camel's back was Regina showing him a false picture of the author's door... Priorities aren't very straight there.

      Also, what the hell happened to the magical coal mine thing that apparently had remnants of The Enchanted Forest UNDER Storybrooke? That didn't go anywhere...

      I have more when I think about them...

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    • Here's more...

      How about the fact that there's 3 Ursulas (Gold, Green, Regina) but a few things are not clear (or consistent):

      a) Which one is the Ursula in The Little Mermaid? (Not vital since Once changes everything, see more below...)

      b) How is the Green one a villain/Queen of Darkness at all anyway? She didn't ruin Ariel's life, Regina did.

      c) Why did the Green one greet Hook so casually when she came into Storybrooke? He basically took her happy ending...shouldn't she have threatened him or SOMETHING?? Actor's motivation was wrong there.

      d) Where's the Gold one at?



      Also, how about the fact that the show has already referenced authors and their work, and movies, (Mulan, Walt, Thoreau, etc) yet...:

      a) Ariel's arc just developed last season, instead of being a backstory.

      b) I'm still confused about Cinderella's arc... where Rumple basically kills her Fairy Godmother. No wonder they haven't touched on Cinderella further, they probably know they screwed that one up.

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    • Raelizflo wrote:
      How about Maleficent's horns?

      And didn't Regina say (S 1 or 2) something about bringing people to Storybrooke she NEEDED. That's always irked me because why would she need Pongo or Grumpy over say the White Rabbit, or idk... Jafar?

      Also, what about how confident Rumple was about bringing Maleficent back from the dead, but he can't bring Bae back? This just doesn't make sense.

      Also, how Rumple basically shrugged off the fact that Regina locked up Belle for 28 years, but the straw that broke the camel's back was Regina showing him a false picture of the author's door... Priorities aren't very straight there.

      Also, what the hell happened to the magical coal mine thing that apparently had remnants of The Enchanted Forest UNDER Storybrooke? That didn't go anywhere...

      I have more when I think about them...

      a) It's a horned helmet. People do change their clothes, including headwear.

      b) I think she was referring to the deceased (i.e.: not bringing Whale's brother but bringing Daniel and possibly Henry Sr.)

      b) Because she wasn't dead to begin with: the failsafe protection spell kept her spirit bound to her remains.

      c) It had Snow White's glass coffin, which they just didn't show on screen last time we went down there.

      Raelizflo wrote: Here's more...

      How about the fact that there's 3 Ursulas (Gold, Green, Regina) but a few things are not clear (or consistent):

      a) Which one is the Ursula in The Little Mermaid? (Not vital since Once changes everything, see more below...)

      b) How is the Green one a villain/Queen of Darkness at all anyway? She didn't ruin Ariel's life, Regina did.

      c) Why did the Green one greet Hook so casually when she came into Storybrooke? He basically took her happy ending...shouldn't she have threatened him or SOMETHING?? Actor's motivation was wrong there.

      d) Where's the Gold one at?



      Also, how about the fact that the show has already referenced authors and their work, and movies, (Mulan, Walt, Thoreau, etc) yet...:

      a) Ariel's arc just developed last season, instead of being a backstory.

      b) I'm still confused about Cinderella's arc... where Rumple basically kills her Fairy Godmother. No wonder they haven't touched on Cinderella further, they probably know they screwed that one up.

      a) Goddess-Ursula gave merepeople legs for one day. Regina-Ursula screwed Ariel over.

      b) I agree that we've seen less viallainous heroes over here, but she's been around for a couple hundred years and she might have very well wreaked havoc in that time. Off-screen, unfortunately. :/

      c) As I said, she's been around for a couple hundred years, plus thirty years on her own in the Land Without Magic: I guess that's more than enough time to get over it… until Hook opened the wound anew which pissed her off.

      d) In the sea minding her own business? Being a goddess, I guess she's not very prone to manifest herself, unless people (i.e.: Regina) cross her.

      The others don't seem much of a continuity issue to me.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Raelizflo wrote:
      How about Maleficent's horns?

      And didn't Regina say (S 1 or 2) something about bringing people to Storybrooke she NEEDED. That's always irked me because why would she need Pongo or Grumpy over say the White Rabbit, or idk... Jafar?

      Also, what about how confident Rumple was about bringing Maleficent back from the dead, but he can't bring Bae back? This just doesn't make sense.

      Also, how Rumple basically shrugged off the fact that Regina locked up Belle for 28 years, but the straw that broke the camel's back was Regina showing him a false picture of the author's door... Priorities aren't very straight there.

      Also, what the hell happened to the magical coal mine thing that apparently had remnants of The Enchanted Forest UNDER Storybrooke? That didn't go anywhere...

      I have more when I think about them...

      Ragina said she brought the people she WANTED, seems ragina had some say in who got cursed(as the curse brought Dr Whale from LWC but brought no one else from that realm)


      As said before Mal was not dead, she was still "Alive" as a pile of ashes, they needed Snow and Charmings blood to give her a body again.(i always liked "Zombie" Mal best...that screach was awesome)


      And he "forgave" her for the 28 years imprisonment because he had a hand in her mothers death 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Another thing I just thought of was there was a season, (3rd?) where everyone was talking about a Dark/Black fairy. That was thrown out the window. I really thought they were referring to Maleficent and it would be this whole thing... nope, out the window.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Also, as far as we know, Ursula is no "badder" than Grumpy in terms of wanting a happy ending. How come Grumpy's not deemed a "villain"? --Inconsistent.

      And why havent they (especially Snow) tried giving his friend his happy ending instead of passively allowing the Blue Fairy to have such conservative control over who should fall in love with who. Besides, isn't Snow Mayor now? Marriage equality, Snow! Give ol' Grumpy his fairy girlfriend Nova back.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Raelizflo, the Black Fairy is still a thing, and we will get to her when they are ready to get to her. She's not Mal, because Mal was never a fairy in this canon. Ursula not really being villainous is kind of the point of the half season, because the theme is "what makes a hero and what makes a villain?". So they are using Ursula to show how villains may not be as villainous as everyone makes them out to be. And Snow is no longer the mayor, btw, we saw Regina become mayor again in Darkness on the Edge of Town.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Raelizflo wrote:
      How about Maleficent's horns?

      And didn't Regina say (S 1 or 2) something about bringing people to Storybrooke she NEEDED. That's always irked me because why would she need Pongo or Grumpy over say the White Rabbit, or idk... Jafar?

      Also, what about how confident Rumple was about bringing Maleficent back from the dead, but he can't bring Bae back? This just doesn't make sense.

      Also, what the hell happened to the magical coal mine thing that apparently had remnants of The Enchanted Forest UNDER Storybrooke? That didn't go anywhere...

      How about the fact that there's 3 Ursulas (Gold, Green, Regina) but a few things are not clear (or consistent):

      a) Which one is the Ursula in The Little Mermaid? (Not vital since Once changes everything, see more below...)

      b) How is the Green one a villain/Queen of Darkness at all anyway? She didn't ruin Ariel's life, Regina did.

      c) Why did the Green one greet Hook so casually when she came into Storybrooke? He basically took her happy ending...shouldn't she have threatened him or SOMETHING?? Actor's motivation was wrong there.

      d) Where's the Gold one at?

      b) I'm still confused about Cinderella's arc... where Rumple basically kills her Fairy Godmother. No wonder they haven't touched on Cinderella further, they probably know they screwed that one up.

      1) Maleficent's horns? It's a headpiece, we've seen her without it several times. 

      2) I'm almost sure she meant "radius". She brought to Storybrooke the piece of her land that consisted of people she needed, I'm sure she didn't sit down and picked every single one, otherwise we wouldn't have random townsfolk and we'd have, as you said, White Rabbit etc.

      3) Maleficent wasn't dead

      4) It had Maleficent in dragon form and Snow's glass coffin, where should they go with that? 

      5) Two Ursulas, one goddess, one witch named after the goddess. Regine pretended to be the goddess. 

      6) She did help crash a few ships 

      7) She was a bit bitter, but after hundreds of years she was probably over it until Hook kept pushing her, like someone else said. 

      8) Isn't Gold's happy ending the healing of his heart? 

      9) ....how did they screw it? Rumple replaced the Fairy Godmother, still everything else went on like the fairytale (except of course the "give me your first born" thing)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
       And Snow is no longer the mayor, btw, we saw Regina become mayor again in Darkness on the Edge of Town.

      Okay, so bi racial... bi-species couples should still be forbidden? Snow is still his friend, why hasn't she in all this time tried to help Grumpy get his girl back? To clarify, my point was Green Ursula was never really a villain, essentially all she did was betray her father's wishes of wanting to hurt humans, and turning her fishtail into octolegs. She didn't DO anything to earn her the title of a villain... her father is more a villain if he already had his mermaids sing humans to their imminent deaths under the sea.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Raelizflo wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
       And Snow is no longer the mayor, btw, we saw Regina become mayor again in Darkness on the Edge of Town.

      Okay, so bi racial... bi-species couples should still be forbidden? Snow is still his friend, why hasn't she in all this time tried to help Grumpy get his girl back? To clarify, my point was Green Ursula was never really a villain, essentially all she did was betray her father's wishes of wanting to hurt humans, and turning her fishtail into octolegs. She didn't DO anything to earn her the title of a villain... her father is more a villain if he already had his mermaids sing humans to their imminent deaths under the sea.

      Astrid/Nova reports to Blue. Grumpy is still friends with them, but they never want to show the townspeople. In the little shorts they had before Season 3b (Good Morning Storybrooke), they had a small get together.

      Poseidon was more of the villain, but more so he was just bitter at his loss. Princess Ursula wasn't a villain and it just goes to prove, they need to stop using black and white terms. What happen to "The Bandit", "The Queen", "The Pirate", etc...now they only say villain and hero. (Belle they would call a hero, but she didn't say anyone until midseason season 4, besides her family; Snow and Charming save no one other than their friends; Aurora saved no one, Ella saved no one, Henry saved no one, etc, so they aren't heroes.) Each have their own roles and not every thing has to be black and white.

      Simply put: It's hard to show things aren't black and white when you only use black and white terms.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Great points Eskaver!

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I think the writers have deliberately written Ursula and Cruella in sharp contrast with each other. Ursula is the kind of person who threatens a lot, but doesn't go on to the end (as seen when she spared Hook's hip): she acts villainous due to circumstances, but doesn't really have it in her, as seen when she threw Hook overboard but didn't finish him off herself. Cruella is a sociopath and has no redeemable quality, her only restraint was imposed to her by the Author. I think the only mistake the writers have made is showing not-so-much-a-villain Ursula only in her pre-villain state and only hinting subtly she kept that kind of quality later.

      This is pretty much the same writing choice behind Regina and Rumple in this arc: Regina tries hard to be good, gets drawn back by circumstances and resorts to very evil ways only as the last ditch (and even then, she tries to limit any collateral damage: I think of her "forget it" command to Belle as a way to spare her a painful memory). Rumple may have some good goal deep underneath, but chooses to pursue it with the very methods that keep alienating that good from him. I think Belle's love would be enough to save his heart (especially because it would remove the Dark One's Curse in the first place), but chooses deliberately evil over love.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • GothicNarcissus wrote:

      Utter solitude wrote:

      GothicNarcissus wrote: We're forgetting the mother of all retcons / continuity errors:

      1) Jefferson's (very limited) portal to the past in An Apple As Red As Blood.

      2) The Dragon using "active powers" in Hong Kong.

      1- I'm not sure what you're calling the retcon here. Its lack of power? Storybrooke had no magic at the time, and the item Regina gave up to use the hat was just a ring- small amount of power, small result. The hat clearly needs a ton of magic to operate.

      2- The Dragon could have had some magical object we didn't see or hear about.

      The retcon is, up until that point there was no implication at all that time-travel between lands was not possible. In that very scene, Jefferson himself told Regina, "Then you need to direct me to the time and place where this object exists". I specified the portal was very limited because no, technically no one time-travelled yet at that point, it was just a small opening. Which as of now is a bit "awkward" to recall.

      The real truth is...wait for it...They had no clue whether they wanted the Fairytale Land/ Enchanted Forest to remain existing. That's why they had Regina awkwardly say there is nothing left...small corner of the land...sending the Wraith to a void...Before they introduced Arendelle and Agrabah, of course.

      I don't know whether they didn't plan season 2 when they planned season 1 or they didn't know what to really do post season 1 or (I don't know why Regina and Rumple would think a curse that travels realms would destroy their world.)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Raelizflo wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
       And Snow is no longer the mayor, btw, we saw Regina become mayor again in Darkness on the Edge of Town.
      Okay, so bi racial... bi-species couples should still be forbidden? Snow is still his friend, why hasn't she in all this time tried to help Grumpy get his girl back? To clarify, my point was Green Ursula was never really a villain, essentially all she did was betray her father's wishes of wanting to hurt humans, and turning her fishtail into octolegs. She didn't DO anything to earn her the title of a villain... her father is more a villain if he already had his mermaids sing humans to their imminent deaths under the sea.

      It has nothing to do with bi-species, and everything to do with fairies can't have relationships (probably a purity thing). Similarly, the fairies became nuns in SB, who also can't have relationships, due to a vow of chastity. Grumpy can pursue relationships with others (even though it's implied the drawfs are asexual), but yeah Nova/Astird should be off limits.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Raelizflo wrote:
      Also, as far as we know, Ursula is no "badder" than Grumpy in terms of wanting a happy ending. How come Grumpy's not deemed a "villain"? --Inconsistent.

      And why havent they (especially Snow) tried giving his friend his happy ending instead of passively allowing the Blue Fairy to have such conservative control over who should fall in love with who. Besides, isn't Snow Mayor now? Marriage equality, Snow! Give ol' Grumpy his fairy girlfriend Nova back.

      I don't think Snow could have done anything as mayor to change the fairy & Dwarf rules.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Ruby ridinghood wrote:
      Raelizflo wrote:
      Also, as far as we know, Ursula is no "badder" than Grumpy in terms of wanting a happy ending. How come Grumpy's not deemed a "villain"? --Inconsistent.

      And why havent they (especially Snow) tried giving his friend his happy ending instead of passively allowing the Blue Fairy to have such conservative control over who should fall in love with who. Besides, isn't Snow Mayor now? Marriage equality, Snow! Give ol' Grumpy his fairy girlfriend Nova back.

      I don't think Snow could have done anything as mayor to change the fairy & Dwarf rules.

      And Astrid would have to give up being a Fairy if she were to hook up with Grumpy (at least as of now, according to Blue). And the fact that the fairies became nuns just emphasizes the restriction that fairies are not intended to have relationships (at least the romantic kind) with others.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • This thought has been bugging me for a while. The fact that hook was able to go back in LWM. Regina said that everyone that was broughtback by the curse has been completely cut off from LWM, that only another curse can bridge the two worl, yet he was able to freaking go back and deliver the potion to Emma. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • TheSamTrickster wrote:
      This thought has been bugging me for a while. The fact that hook was able to go back in LWM. Regina said that everyone that was broughtback by the curse has been completely cut off from LWM, that only another curse can bridge the two worl, yet he was able to freaking go back and deliver the potion to Emma. 

      He apparently found one of those none existent magic beans...

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      This thought has been bugging me for a while. The fact that hook was able to go back in LWM. Regina said that everyone that was broughtback by the curse has been completely cut off from LWM, that only another curse can bridge the two worl, yet he was able to freaking go back and deliver the potion to Emma. 
      He apparently found one of those none existent magic beans...

      I will emphasize again, Regina said no one can go back to LWM with normal portals, for those who were brought back by the curse, normal portals won't work as it divided the realms between EF and LWM. She added, only the dark curse can bridge the two realms again. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • TheSamTrickster wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      This thought has been bugging me for a while. The fact that hook was able to go back in LWM. Regina said that everyone that was broughtback by the curse has been completely cut off from LWM, that only another curse can bridge the two worl, yet he was able to freaking go back and deliver the potion to Emma. 
      He apparently found one of those none existent magic beans...
      I will emphasize again, Regina said no one can go back to LWM with normal portals, for those who were brought back by the curse, normal portals won't work as it divided the realms between EF and LWM. She added, only the dark curse can bridge the two realms again. 

      I know, but apparently Hook's true love and plot devices can transport across realms. No, the real truth is he out ran it after it was casted and then used a magic bean.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      This thought has been bugging me for a while. The fact that hook was able to go back in LWM. Regina said that everyone that was broughtback by the curse has been completely cut off from LWM, that only another curse can bridge the two worl, yet he was able to freaking go back and deliver the potion to Emma. 
      He apparently found one of those none existent magic beans...
      I will emphasize again, Regina said no one can go back to LWM with normal portals, for those who were brought back by the curse, normal portals won't work as it divided the realms between EF and LWM. She added, only the dark curse can bridge the two realms again. 
      I know, but apparently Hook's true love and plot devices can transport across realms. No, the real truth is he out ran it after it was casted and then used a magic bean.

      Folks, you missed (or forgot) one crucial part of the conversation between Killian and Emma.

      Killian used the Jolly Roger to outrun Snow's curse, so he was still in the EF/FTL when the curse was cast.  Once he had outrun the curse, he THEN traded the Jolly Roger (to Blackbeard as we later learn) for a magic bean to get back.  So there is not a continuity problem here, because Killian returned to the LWM after the curse was cast.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      This thought has been bugging me for a while. The fact that hook was able to go back in LWM. Regina said that everyone that was broughtback by the curse has been completely cut off from LWM, that only another curse can bridge the two worl, yet he was able to freaking go back and deliver the potion to Emma. 
      He apparently found one of those none existent magic beans...
      I will emphasize again, Regina said no one can go back to LWM with normal portals, for those who were brought back by the curse, normal portals won't work as it divided the realms between EF and LWM. She added, only the dark curse can bridge the two realms again. 
      I know, but apparently Hook's true love and plot devices can transport across realms. No, the real truth is he out ran it after it was casted and then used a magic bean.
      Folks, you missed (or forgot) one crucial part of the conversation between Killian and Emma.

      Killian used the Jolly Roger to outrun Snow's curse, so he was still in the EF/FTL when the curse was cast.  Once he had outrun the curse, he THEN traded the Jolly Roger (to Blackbeard as we later learn) for a magic bean to get back.  So there is not a continuity problem here, because Killian returned to the LWM after the curse was cast.

      Its you who missed.This statement was said by regina after they were brought back by the curse via, counteracting pan's curse. Therefore, she said that those that were brought back by that curse, cannot use normal portals to go back to LWM as it divided the realms between FTL and LWM, and that casting another curse is required in order to go back to LWM, Regina also said that if there were other way othern than casting the dark curse that she could have been with henry already. This imply that had magic bean was really a way back, regina could have done so, but she knew it wouldn't, which is why its hard to believe that Hook can simply go back to LWM with magic bean.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • TheSamTrickster wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      This thought has been bugging me for a while. The fact that hook was able to go back in LWM. Regina said that everyone that was broughtback by the curse has been completely cut off from LWM, that only another curse can bridge the two worl, yet he was able to freaking go back and deliver the potion to Emma. 
      He apparently found one of those none existent magic beans...
      I will emphasize again, Regina said no one can go back to LWM with normal portals, for those who were brought back by the curse, normal portals won't work as it divided the realms between EF and LWM. She added, only the dark curse can bridge the two realms again. 
      I know, but apparently Hook's true love and plot devices can transport across realms. No, the real truth is he out ran it after it was casted and then used a magic bean.
      Folks, you missed (or forgot) one crucial part of the conversation between Killian and Emma.

      Killian used the Jolly Roger to outrun Snow's curse, so he was still in the EF/FTL when the curse was cast.  Once he had outrun the curse, he THEN traded the Jolly Roger (to Blackbeard as we later learn) for a magic bean to get back.  So there is not a continuity problem here, because Killian returned to the LWM after the curse was cast.

      Its you who missed.This statement was said by regina after they were brought back by the curse via, counteracting pan's curse. Therefore, she said that those that were brought back by that curse, cannot use normal portals to go back to LWM as it divided the realms between FTL and LWM, and that casting another curse is required in order to go back to LWM, Regina also said that if there were other way othern than casting the dark curse that she could have been with henry already. This imply that had magic bean was really a way back, regina could have done so, but she knew it wouldn't, which is why its hard to believe that Hook can simply go back to LWM with magic bean.

      What Regina said was that undoing the curse cut off hte bridges between the different realms. Re-casting the Curse built them back, thus allowing for Hook to travel with the magic bean, Anna and Kristoff to be taken to Storybrooke with the Wishing Star, all the Frozen gang to go back to Arendelle via the Sorcere's portal, the Jolly Roger to be retrived by Ursula, Ariel to bring Poseidon and he and Ursula to go back, you just name it.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • GothicNarcissus wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      This thought has been bugging me for a while. The fact that hook was able to go back in LWM. Regina said that everyone that was broughtback by the curse has been completely cut off from LWM, that only another curse can bridge the two worl, yet he was able to freaking go back and deliver the potion to Emma. 
      He apparently found one of those none existent magic beans...
      I will emphasize again, Regina said no one can go back to LWM with normal portals, for those who were brought back by the curse, normal portals won't work as it divided the realms between EF and LWM. She added, only the dark curse can bridge the two realms again. 
      I know, but apparently Hook's true love and plot devices can transport across realms. No, the real truth is he out ran it after it was casted and then used a magic bean.
      Folks, you missed (or forgot) one crucial part of the conversation between Killian and Emma.Killian used the Jolly Roger to outrun Snow's curse, so he was still in the EF/FTL when the curse was cast.  Once he had outrun the curse, he THEN traded the Jolly Roger (to Blackbeard as we later learn) for a magic bean to get back.  So there is not a continuity problem here, because Killian returned to the LWM after the curse was cast.
      Its you who missed.This statement was said by regina after they were brought back by the curse via, counteracting pan's curse. Therefore, she said that those that were brought back by that curse, cannot use normal portals to go back to LWM as it divided the realms between FTL and LWM, and that casting another curse is required in order to go back to LWM, Regina also said that if there were other way othern than casting the dark curse that she could have been with henry already. This imply that had magic bean was really a way back, regina could have done so, but she knew it wouldn't, which is why its hard to believe that Hook can simply go back to LWM with magic bean.
      What Regina said was that undoing the curse cut off hte bridges between the different realms. Re-casting the Curse built them back, thus allowing for Hook to travel with the magic bean, Anna and Kristoff to be taken to Storybrooke with the Wishing Star, all the Frozen gang to go back to Arendelle via the Sorcere's portal, the Jolly Roger to be retrived by Ursula, Ariel to bring Poseidon and he and Ursula to go back, you just name it.

      The first point makes sense. Thanks. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • TheSamTrickster wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      TheSamTrickster wrote:
      This thought has been bugging me for a while. The fact that hook was able to go back in LWM. Regina said that everyone that was broughtback by the curse has been completely cut off from LWM, that only another curse can bridge the two worl, yet he was able to freaking go back and deliver the potion to Emma. 
      He apparently found one of those none existent magic beans...
      I will emphasize again, Regina said no one can go back to LWM with normal portals, for those who were brought back by the curse, normal portals won't work as it divided the realms between EF and LWM. She added, only the dark curse can bridge the two realms again. 
      I know, but apparently Hook's true love and plot devices can transport across realms. No, the real truth is he out ran it after it was casted and then used a magic bean.
      Folks, you missed (or forgot) one crucial part of the conversation between Killian and Emma.

      Killian used the Jolly Roger to outrun Snow's curse, so he was still in the EF/FTL when the curse was cast.  Once he had outrun the curse, he THEN traded the Jolly Roger (to Blackbeard as we later learn) for a magic bean to get back.  So there is not a continuity problem here, because Killian returned to the LWM after the curse was cast.

      Its you who missed.This statement was said by regina after they were brought back by the curse via, counteracting pan's curse. Therefore, she said that those that were brought back by that curse, cannot use normal portals to go back to LWM as it divided the realms between FTL and LWM, and that casting another curse is required in order to go back to LWM, Regina also said that if there were other way othern than casting the dark curse that she could have been with henry already. This imply that had magic bean was really a way back, regina could have done so, but she knew it wouldn't, which is why its hard to believe that Hook can simply go back to LWM with magic bean.

      I recall clearly that conversation.  However, I took that to mean that the only way to break the barrier between FTL and LWM was to cast the dark curse.  But once the Dark Curse was cast (taking all the regular residents back to Storybrooke), the wall would be down to allow travel between realms once again.  In other words, the wall only existed until the Dark Curse was once again in place, or basically during the "Lost Year".

      Now, maybe my understanding was flawed, but it seems that this is exactly what happened. Not only was Killian able to travel via bean, Zelena was also able to open the Time portal, Ursula was able to get the Jolly Roger from Arendelle, Ariel was able to journey to whereever Posiedon resides, and Anna and Kristoff were able to be wished to storybrooke. (Not to mention the return trip to Arendelle).

      Keep in mind that part of the trip for Killian was to bring Emma the Memory Potion. Gold/Neal did not get the memory potion from Zelena until AFTER the new curse was cast, and by the time the pigeon found Killian, it was likely right around the same time as the curse was spreading across the realm.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I have a question: Why did Regina know about Neverland if they never explored how she knew about it? How does she even know about it?

      Regina was like "This is Neverland" and they said she had a connection, but the only connection she had was Tinkerbell in her own castle and then she never saw her again. Regina can't use the mirror to look across worlds, so how did she know anything about Neverland.....she doesn't even know anything about Oz, besides whatever learned in Storybrooke.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      I have a question: Why did Regina know about Neverland if they never explored how she knew about it? How does she even know about it?

      Regina was like "This is Neverland" and they said she had a connection, but the only connection she had was Tinkerbell in her own castle and then she never saw her again. Regina can't use the mirror to look across worlds, so how did she know anything about Neverland.....she doesn't even know anything about Oz, besides whatever learned in Storybrooke.

      She also told hook "i know why you have come here from Neverland" when he broke into her castle to get Belle.

      Prehaps Rumple told her about it in their lessons.

      Or she could have learned about it from the Mad Hatter(can his hat take him to Neverland?)


      And i thought when they were back in the EF that ragina said "only one world has flying monkeys....Oz" and she knew that ment that the person who was in the castle was the WWOTW????

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Jackbenimble wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      I have a question: Why did Regina know about Neverland if they never explored how she knew about it? How does she even know about it?

      Regina was like "This is Neverland" and they said she had a connection, but the only connection she had was Tinkerbell in her own castle and then she never saw her again. Regina can't use the mirror to look across worlds, so how did she know anything about Neverland.....she doesn't even know anything about Oz, besides whatever learned in Storybrooke.

      She also told hook "i know why you have come here from Neverland" when he broke into her castle to get Belle.

      Prehaps Rumple told her about it in their lessons.

      Or she could have learned about it from the Mad Hatter(can his hat take him to Neverland?)


      And i thought when they were back in the EF that ragina said "only one world has flying monkeys....Oz" and she knew that ment that the person who was in the castle was the WWOTW????

      But she has knowledge of fairytales from books, not actuality...and that was Belle.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Jackbenimble wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      I have a question: Why did Regina know about Neverland if they never explored how she knew about it? How does she even know about it?

      Regina was like "This is Neverland" and they said she had a connection, but the only connection she had was Tinkerbell in her own castle and then she never saw her again. Regina can't use the mirror to look across worlds, so how did she know anything about Neverland.....she doesn't even know anything about Oz, besides whatever learned in Storybrooke.

      She also told hook "i know why you have come here from Neverland" when he broke into her castle to get Belle.

      Prehaps Rumple told her about it in their lessons.

      Or she could have learned about it from the Mad Hatter(can his hat take him to Neverland?)


      And i thought when they were back in the EF that ragina said "only one world has flying monkeys....Oz" and she knew that ment that the person who was in the castle was the WWOTW????

      But she has knowledge of fairytales from books, not actuality...and that was Belle.

      Your right it was belle who said that part.


      But Ragina knew all about Hook coming from Neverland back to the EF, still seems odd that she knew about Neverland at all.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Well, we already know that many citizens of the Enchanted Forest are quite knowledgeable about the other magical worlds...

      I mean, Regina is a queen, and smart enough to know that knowledge is power. I'm sure she has networks that give her access to all kinds of knowledge. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Utter solitude wrote:
      Well, we already know that many citizens of the Enchanted Forest are quite knowledgeable about the other magical worlds...

      I mean, Regina is a queen, and smart enough to know that knowledge is power. I'm sure she has networks that give her access to all kinds of knowledge. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

      Well, that's somewhat disputable. Snow White was a princess, bandit, and then a queen and she didn't here about Camelot or Oz, etc. I think only a few are knowledgeable of other worlds, like it was an ancient thing to use magic beans to traverse and conquer other lands (which could explain how worlds like Wonderland were populated....

      We can't assume they know of other worlds when most don't seem to be aware. It's probably a magic person or sage's knowledge to find out about it. Or rumors spread.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Well, Snow White probably wouldn't be as interested in other worlds as Regina would, know what I mean?

      It seems to be one of those things that, if you wanted to learn more, you easily could. Jefferson alone would be a gold mine of information, and he's not the only realm-jumper.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Well, obviously Rumple knows about all of the realms, as well as being able to travel at will in all of the magical ones. I mean, he goes to the LWC using his magic. His comment when he hired Robin would seem to indicate that he has the ability to go to Oz, and just knows that his presence would cause a few more problems than he has time for.

      Regina was WELL aware of Wonderland.  Even if she didn't know when she first shoved her mom through the looking glass, One of her first comments was about escaping the looking glass, to which Cora responded about Wonderland. And I feel confident that Rumple would have included some knowledge of other realms in his teaching, since his goal was to use the Dark Curse as a means of realm jumping on a massive scale.

      Thing is, Regina is not powerful enough to jump realms by herself, or even spy on other realms.  If you remember "The Jolly Roger" she had Emma open the mirror to find Ariel and Eric on Hangman's Island back in the EF.

      Now, it may be possible for Emma, now that she is really gaining control of her magic, to open a portal back to the EF.  And I kinda hope they do that at some point.  Being able to adventure in the EF (or even other realms) in the current day opens some possibilities for stories that would simply not work in Storybrooke.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Well, obviously Rumple knows about all of the realms, as well as being able to travel at will in all of the magical ones. I mean, he goes to the LWC using his magic. His comment when he hired Robin would seem to indicate that he has the ability to go to Oz, and just knows that his presence would cause a few more problems than he has time for.

      Regina was WELL aware of Wonderland.  Even if she didn't know when she first shoved her mom through the looking glass, One of her first comments was about escaping the looking glass, to which Cora responded about Wonderland. And I feel confident that Rumple would have included some knowledge of other realms in his teaching, since his goal was to use the Dark Curse as a means of realm jumping on a massive scale.

      Thing is, Regina is not powerful enough to jump realms by herself, or even spy on other realms.  If you remember "The Jolly Roger" she had Emma open the mirror to find Ariel and Eric on Hangman's Island back in the EF.

      Now, it may be possible for Emma, now that she is really gaining control of her magic, to open a portal back to the EF.  And I kinda hope they do that at some point.  Being able to adventure in the EF (or even other realms) in the current day opens some possibilities for stories that would simply not work in Storybrooke.

      I wouldn't say so. We actuially never saw him travel to other worlds. I always assume he lacked that power because he always sent Jefferson to do things for him. 

      Regina learned of Wonderland, because Rumple hinted at it to her when he gave her the looking glass. 

      Zelena couldn't traverse worlds, but managed to banish Glinda to the EF.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Well, obviously Rumple knows about all of the realms, as well as being able to travel at will in all of the magical ones. I mean, he goes to the LWC using his magic. His comment when he hired Robin would seem to indicate that he has the ability to go to Oz, and just knows that his presence would cause a few more problems than he has time for.

      Regina was WELL aware of Wonderland.  Even if she didn't know when she first shoved her mom through the looking glass, One of her first comments was about escaping the looking glass, to which Cora responded about Wonderland. And I feel confident that Rumple would have included some knowledge of other realms in his teaching, since his goal was to use the Dark Curse as a means of realm jumping on a massive scale.

      Thing is, Regina is not powerful enough to jump realms by herself, or even spy on other realms.  If you remember "The Jolly Roger" she had Emma open the mirror to find Ariel and Eric on Hangman's Island back in the EF.

      Now, it may be possible for Emma, now that she is really gaining control of her magic, to open a portal back to the EF.  And I kinda hope they do that at some point.  Being able to adventure in the EF (or even other realms) in the current day opens some possibilities for stories that would simply not work in Storybrooke.

      I wouldn't say so. We actuially never saw him travel to other worlds. I always assume he lacked that power because he always sent Jefferson to do things for him. 

      Regina learned of Wonderland, because Rumple hinted at it to her when he gave her the looking glass. 

      Zelena couldn't traverse worlds, but managed to banish Glinda to the EF.

      I didn't think that Jefferson was with Rumple when he went to the LWC and found Dr. Frankenstein. I'll have to go and rewatch those episodes again.

      The first time Zelena came to the EF, she had borrowed the silver slippers, but how did she get back the second time (during the first curse?) She did not, as far as I know, have the slippers for that trip.  My guess is that, with her power boosted by the pendant, she was powerful enough to cross realms.  That's also what made it possible for her to open the time portal. And send Walsh to NYC during the "lost year".

      Of course, that might cause a problem if Zelena's magic is actually stronger than the Dark One.  That would put her, (with her pendant) on par with the Sorcerer or the Apprentice.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I was always under the impression that Zelena is stronger the Rumple(in terms of over all magical power/stregth) Rumple is just older and a hell of a lot smarter then she is.


      I would say the only people stronger then Zelena would be the Sorcerer himself and the Author(we have seen that the author can make the Apprentice do things against his will)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • It may be that realm-jumping is a learned skill that Rumple hasn't bothered to learn, frankly, because he doesn't need to. Jefferson can do it, and it's been told to us that there are others. He frequently uses others to do things he could do himself. That's his style.

      Rumple may be able to do more magical heavy lifting, so to speak, but he's not prone to big displays of power or doing things out of rage, at least that we've seen. Zelena is nothing if not a ball of rage, after all.

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    • I'm certain that Zelena isn't on par with Rumple. He's just not showy. I mean Jafar, Regina, and Zelena outshow him all the time with different magical techniques. I think Rumple is very powerful, but could be thwarted by the four witches of Oz as a group and the Apprentice/ Sorcerer.

      Realm-jumping doesn't seem to be a skill to learn, unless Regina and the rest could easily do it whenever. So, I thought that Rumple simply utilized Jefferson, otherwise he would have taken Victor with him.

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    • I'm saying, realm-jumping is either a hard-learned skill (say, Jefferson had to make his hat or perfect the actual travel in some way) or it just requires the hat (or whatever magical item) to do. In either case, Rumple would definitely utilize Jefferson, that's his style. Why bother learning some complicated skill when an expert you can use already exists? XD I'm just more inclined to believe that there is some actual skill involved - Regina needed Jefferson's help in "An Apple Red as Blood", after all. Granted, magic was in short supply, but just the fact that she sought him out makes me think there's some skill involved.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      I'm saying, realm-jumping is either a hard-learned skill (say, Jefferson had to make his hat or perfect the actual travel in some way) or it just requires the hat (or whatever magical item) to do. In either case, Rumple would definitely utilize Jefferson, that's his style. Why bother learning some complicated skill when an expert you can use already exists? XD I'm just more inclined to believe that there is some actual skill involved - Regina needed Jefferson's help in "An Apple Red as Blood", after all. Granted, magic was in short supply, but just the fact that she sought him out makes me think there's some skill involved.

      I'll go with a required item, unless you are banishing someone. Jefferson seemed to not make his hat, since he couldn't make one work in Wonderland. He's not magical, so he can't enchant it will a spell.

      Jefferson is a realm jumper (Rumple's words to the Blue Fairy) and I think he has unique talents no other has unless they are the sorcerer or have magic items to do so.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I would say it's both, or possibly that one must be skilled in the use of the hat. That seems to be a skill in itself :D

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Utter solitude wrote:
      I would say it's both, or possibly that one must be skilled in the use of the hat. That seems to be a skill in itself :D

      Lol, Regina just tossed it on the ground. I think it is either tie to Jefferson or someone with magical power.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Even if magic had been around at the time, I doubt Regina would have been able to use the hat well. She may have been able to muddle through it, having used it to travel before, if the hat's not tied to Jefferson as you've suggested.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Regina does get to use the hat on her own, as seen in 209.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I think this also hearkens back to a previous thought.

      Magic is a learned skill, just like any other. When Rumple apporached Cora and the incident with young Ingrid, I thought for sure magical abillity is just a trait passed on. It is, as seen with shapeshifters, but it seems that it can be learned and people have differing ranges of talent that isn't genetically prediposed. 

      Jefferson would have magic (I disagreed earlier with this) because it seems that you have to have magic to use the hat, shown via 2x01, I think.

      So, it would stand that however people posssess magical ability, they can use the hat. So, either the hat passed down people with some magical potential or they just learned to channel magic in order to use the hat. However, it isn't one of those items that the powerless can use, i.e. wishing star, pixie dust, potions, fairy-dust filled wands, other enchanted items, etc.

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    • I'm trying to remember in what context Regina uses the hat in 209? To travel to Wonderland, right? It's been awhile XD

      If that's the case, I wonder what the hat looked like for Regina? I doubt it was the portal of doors Jefferson showed her, I'd say it popped her right into Wonderland, in a similar fashion to Jefferson retrieving her apple in 121.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      I'm trying to remember in what context Regina uses the hat in 209? To travel to Wonderland, right? It's been awhile XD

      If that's the case, I wonder what the hat looked like for Regina? I doubt it was the portal of doors Jefferson showed her, I'd say it popped her right into Wonderland, in a similar fashion to Jefferson retrieving her apple in 121.

      She did not really used it. She just opened it for Hook and the guard's dead body :)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • OH YEAH! Now I remember XD

      Well then I guess what I said still stands.

      And it's probably likely that even Jefferson doesn't always utilize the portal of doors. He tells Regina to think of the time and place with the apple in 121, I'd assume most of the time he knows where he's going and it takes him there. Like a Bean XD

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      I'm trying to remember in what context Regina uses the hat in 209? To travel to Wonderland, right? It's been awhile XD

      If that's the case, I wonder what the hat looked like for Regina? I doubt it was the portal of doors Jefferson showed her, I'd say it popped her right into Wonderland, in a similar fashion to Jefferson retrieving her apple in 121.

      She uses it to have Hook and dead Claude to travel to Wonderland to assassinate Cora.

      They never showed the inside of the hat ever since the first one. I'm sure it looks the same for everyone that uses it.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      OH YEAH! Now I remember XD

      Well then I guess what I said still stands.

      And it's probably likely that even Jefferson doesn't always utilize the portal of doors. He tells Regina to think of the time and place with the apple in 121, I'd assume most of the time he knows where he's going and it takes him there. Like a Bean XD

      I agree slightly because they never show the room of doors anytime other than that I think. Even in the comics he just jumps in and jumps out.

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    • Of course, he could be using the doors and it's just not shown, but if you didn't have to do that extra step, you wouldn't XD

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      Of course, he could be using the doors and it's just not shown, but if you didn't have to do that extra step, you wouldn't XD

      Right! I think he still uses it....just remembered that Robin when through a door that apparently dropped out of the sky....I guess that's how Jefferson's door's work. They just drop, but act like a normal portal when leaving or returning to the base world.

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    • I agree. That, and I would assume that just using the hat (say, if he jumped in to travel to Wonderland) creates a door-like portal. Or looking-glass in Wonderland's case.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      I agree. That, and I would assume that just using the hat (say, if he jumped in to travel to Wonderland) creates a door-like portal. Or looking-glass in Wonderland's case.

      I find it funny that Wonderland you walk through a mirror and Oz, you do the same thing except it has curtains. The others are just doors....

      Actually, thinking about it, all of them are portals (including the mirror, but Oz has curtains, Wonderlnad had none, and the others have doors.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Applegirl wrote:
      It could be possibly explained that the curse did not touch Arendelle because Ingrid froze the kingdom indefinitely after Elsa got trapped in the urn. I believe it's implied Arendelle only unfroze after Ingrid had to use a lot of magic to cast the spell of shattered sight, which caused the kingdom to unfreeze.

      This actually was confirmed by Adam on Twitter.

      As for Wonderland and Victorian England being frozen, it's because everything that was untouched by the Curse was frozen by it (look at 2A Misthaven), in that sense, the Dark Curse did reach into all the lands.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Applegirl wrote:
      The one I'm still waiting for them to explain is season one Snow White saying to Prince Charming that the Queen was jealous because she was prettier than her and wanted her dead because of it.

      Then there's the heavily implied almost 99.8% possibility that Anastasia could be Cinderella's stepsister, but if that's true, the two stepsisters and stepmother's brief appearance in "The Price of Gold" would not really work canon wise. Either that or the stepsisters and stepmother were deliberately going to the ball in hideous disguises. XD

      I agree. A lot of evidence does lead me to beleive that Anastasia is Cinderella's step-sidter. But there are too many continuity errors with that and I am looking for anyexplanation that still makes it possible. I don't remember what the stepsisters looked like in "The Price of Gold". If one of the stepsisters somewfat resembles Anastsia it is possible that this is her at an older age. However, this episode takes place shortly before the curse so Anastasia cannot be that much older in Wonderland. Also, according to the timeline "Forget Me Not" appears to take place before "The Price of Gold". Another point (possibly not valid), Anastasia appears to be too old. Cinderella is only 19 at the time of the curse while Anastasia looks like she is at least in her late 20s. If they are stepsisters, they should be around the same age.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Begfhn wrote:
      Applegirl wrote:
      The one I'm still waiting for them to explain is season one Snow White saying to Prince Charming that the Queen was jealous because she was prettier than her and wanted her dead because of it.

      Then there's the heavily implied almost 99.8% possibility that Anastasia could be Cinderella's stepsister, but if that's true, the two stepsisters and stepmother's brief appearance in "The Price of Gold" would not really work canon wise. Either that or the stepsisters and stepmother were deliberately going to the ball in hideous disguises. XD

      I agree. A lot of evidence does lead me to beleive that Anastasia is Cinderella's step-sidter. But there are too many continuity errors with that and I am looking for anyexplanation that still makes it possible. I don't remember what the stepsisters looked like in "The Price of Gold". If one of the stepsisters somewfat resembles Anastsia it is possible that this is her at an older age. However, this episode takes place shortly before the curse so Anastasia cannot be that much older in Wonderland. Also, according to the timeline "Forget Me Not" appears to take place before "The Price of Gold". Another point (possibly not valid), Anastasia appears to be too old. Cinderella is only 19 at the time of the curse while Anastasia looks like she is at least in her late 20s. If they are stepsisters, they should be around the same age.

      Why does them being stepsisters have anything to do with their age. Stepsisters coming in varying ages differences. 

      And yes I think it still fits. If Cinderella was 19 when she gave birth. So she would have been a bit younger when she went to the ball. I believe her stepsisters were in there 20s. So there's no continuity issues with respect to age that I can see. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • What if, when Snow said "She poisoned an apple because she thought I was prettier than her," she was referring to Our World's telling of the story? What if they were aware of Our World, but not to a full extent? What if they knew we were distorting their stories? Thoughts?

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    • Begfhn wrote:
      Applegirl wrote:
      The one I'm still waiting for them to explain is season one Snow White saying to Prince Charming that the Queen was jealous because she was prettier than her and wanted her dead because of it.

      Then there's the heavily implied almost 99.8% possibility that Anastasia could be Cinderella's stepsister, but if that's true, the two stepsisters and stepmother's brief appearance in "The Price of Gold" would not really work canon wise. Either that or the stepsisters and stepmother were deliberately going to the ball in hideous disguises. XD

      I agree. A lot of evidence does lead me to beleive that Anastasia is Cinderella's step-sidter. But there are too many continuity errors with that and I am looking for anyexplanation that still makes it possible. I don't remember what the stepsisters looked like in "The Price of Gold". If one of the stepsisters somewfat resembles Anastsia it is possible that this is her at an older age. However, this episode takes place shortly before the curse so Anastasia cannot be that much older in Wonderland. Also, according to the timeline "Forget Me Not" appears to take place before "The Price of Gold". Another point (possibly not valid), Anastasia appears to be too old. Cinderella is only 19 at the time of the curse while Anastasia looks like she is at least in her late 20s. If they are stepsisters, they should be around the same age.

      I actually just came up with a theory about 10-15 minutes ago.

      So Out Of The Past confirms that Anastasia is the Red Queen at least 8 years prior to Hat Trick, which is more than likely after The Price Of Gold (the beginning part, anyway). My theory is this.

      Anastasia is the eldest of the Tremaine daughters, being about 18 at the time of "Heart Of Stone", while Ella, Drizella and a third unnamed sister are all about 11-13. After having become Red Queen and having lost Will's love, she decides to make amends with her mother and please her by showing her royal status. She kidnaps Mrs. Rabbit and forces Percy to take her to the Enchanted Forest. She finds her mother and sisters at Prince Thomas' ball and all four are absolutely dumbfounded when they realize he's chosen Ella, who appears wearing a luxurious pair of glass slippers and ballgown. Ana, feeling like a failure, rushes out of the ball and runs into the forest, where she bumps into Jafar.

      Jafar, who has just come from Regina's palace searching for the Genie (who is now the Magic Mirror) thinking it might've been Cyrus, ends up discovering Ana is a Queen of Wonderland, where Cyrus truly resides. They agree to work together after he confesses his goal is to break the laws of magic, allowing her to alter the past. They then use Percy to travel to Wonderland. She would be about 26 or so here, and then after that would be the events of "Down The Rabbit Hole" and "Who's Alice", then the Curse and 28 years of time freezing caused by the Curse, and then lastly the present-day Wonderland events.

      It would all fit, and would give us an explanation of how Jafar and Ana met, how Jafar got to Wonderland, it would let us see more of Cinderella's story and would explain why Ana was never brought up during Price Of Gold.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Begfhn wrote:
      Applegirl wrote:
      The one I'm still waiting for them to explain is season one Snow White saying to Prince Charming that the Queen was jealous because she was prettier than her and wanted her dead because of it.

      Then there's the heavily implied almost 99.8% possibility that Anastasia could be Cinderella's stepsister, but if that's true, the two stepsisters and stepmother's brief appearance in "The Price of Gold" would not really work canon wise. Either that or the stepsisters and stepmother were deliberately going to the ball in hideous disguises. XD

      I agree. A lot of evidence does lead me to beleive that Anastasia is Cinderella's step-sidter. But there are too many continuity errors with that and I am looking for anyexplanation that still makes it possible. I don't remember what the stepsisters looked like in "The Price of Gold". If one of the stepsisters somewfat resembles Anastsia it is possible that this is her at an older age. However, this episode takes place shortly before the curse so Anastasia cannot be that much older in Wonderland. Also, according to the timeline "Forget Me Not" appears to take place before "The Price of Gold". Another point (possibly not valid), Anastasia appears to be too old. Cinderella is only 19 at the time of the curse while Anastasia looks like she is at least in her late 20s. If they are stepsisters, they should be around the same age.
      I actually just came up with a theory about 10-15 minutes ago.

      So Out Of The Past confirms that Anastasia is the Red Queen at least 8 years prior to Hat Trick, which is more than likely after The Price Of Gold (the beginning part, anyway). My theory is this.

      Anastasia is the eldest of the Tremaine daughters, being about 18 at the time of "Heart Of Stone", while Ella, Drizella and a third unnamed sister are all about 11-13. After having become Red Queen and having lost Will's love, she decides to make amends with her mother and please her by showing her royal status. She kidnaps Mrs. Rabbit and forces Percy to take her to the Enchanted Forest. She finds her mother and sisters at Prince Thomas' ball and all four are absolutely dumbfounded when they realize he's chosen Ella, who appears wearing a luxurious pair of glass slippers and ballgown. Ana, feeling like a failure, rushes out of the ball and runs into the forest, where she bumps into Jafar.

      Jafar, who has just come from Regina's palace searching for the Genie (who is now the Magic Mirror) thinking it might've been Cyrus, ends up discovering Ana is a Queen of Wonderland, where Cyrus truly resides. They agree to work together after he confesses his goal is to break the laws of magic, allowing her to alter the past. They then use Percy to travel to Wonderland. She would be about 26 or so here, and then after that would be the events of "Down The Rabbit Hole" and "Who's Alice", then the Curse and 28 years of time freezing caused by the Curse, and then lastly the present-day Wonderland events.

      It would all fit, and would give us an explanation of how Jafar and Ana met, how Jafar got to Wonderland, it would let us see more of Cinderella's story and would explain why Ana was never brought up during Price Of Gold.

      I love this theory!

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    • The only thing I have problems with is that Snow told Charming in episode 3 that she ruined Regina's life, when she didn't actually know that until episode 21.

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    • HP7hghrOUaTekscrrF10rrmc wrote:
      The only thing I have problems with is that Snow told Charming in episode 3 that she ruined Regina's life, when she didn't actually know that until episode 21.

      That's not entirely true. She thinks she ruined Regina's life by telling Cora her secret and "causing Daniel to run away." But she didn't know he died until "AARAB." 

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    • ONCEFan wrote:

      HP7hghrOUaTekscrrF10rrmc wrote:
      The only thing I have problems with is that Snow told Charming in episode 3 that she ruined Regina's life, when she didn't actually know that until episode 21.

      That's not entirely true. She thinks she ruined Regina's life by telling Cora her secret and "causing Daniel to run away." But she didn't know he died until "AARAB." 

      That is in no way different from what I said...

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    • HP7hghrOUaTekscrrF10rrmc wrote:

      ONCEFan wrote:

      HP7hghrOUaTekscrrF10rrmc wrote:
      The only thing I have problems with is that Snow told Charming in episode 3 that she ruined Regina's life, when she didn't actually know that until episode 21.

      That's not entirely true. She thinks she ruined Regina's life by telling Cora her secret and "causing Daniel to run away." But she didn't know he died until "AARAB." 

      That is in no way different from what I said...

      Oh oops... but Regina told her that she was glad that he did.And that she did her a favor. Not that she ruined her life.

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    • HP7hghrOUaTekscrrF10rrmc wrote:

      HP7hghrOUaTekscrrF10rrmc wrote:

      ONCEFan wrote:

      HP7hghrOUaTekscrrF10rrmc wrote:
      The only thing I have problems with is that Snow told Charming in episode 3 that she ruined Regina's life, when she didn't actually know that until episode 21.
      That's not entirely true. She thinks she ruined Regina's life by telling Cora her secret and "causing Daniel to run away." But she didn't know he died until "AARAB." 
      That is in no way different from what I said...
      Oh oops... but Regina told her that she was glad that he did.And that she did her a favor. Not that she ruined her life.

      Snow said in The Evil Queen that she knew Regina was full of bitterness and regret. And she knew from the beginning that Regina never loved Leopold. As she grew up, she had to have realized how Regina felt, since she noticed. She even knew Regina had ordered Graham to kill her. Regina was never subtle, and Snow knew exactly what was going on.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Edzz wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Begfhn wrote:
      Applegirl wrote:
      The one I'm still waiting for them to explain is season one Snow White saying to Prince Charming that the Queen was jealous because she was prettier than her and wanted her dead because of it.

      Then there's the heavily implied almost 99.8% possibility that Anastasia could be Cinderella's stepsister, but if that's true, the two stepsisters and stepmother's brief appearance in "The Price of Gold" would not really work canon wise. Either that or the stepsisters and stepmother were deliberately going to the ball in hideous disguises. XD

      I agree. A lot of evidence does lead me to beleive that Anastasia is Cinderella's step-sidter. But there are too many continuity errors with that and I am looking for anyexplanation that still makes it possible. I don't remember what the stepsisters looked like in "The Price of Gold". If one of the stepsisters somewfat resembles Anastsia it is possible that this is her at an older age. However, this episode takes place shortly before the curse so Anastasia cannot be that much older in Wonderland. Also, according to the timeline "Forget Me Not" appears to take place before "The Price of Gold". Another point (possibly not valid), Anastasia appears to be too old. Cinderella is only 19 at the time of the curse while Anastasia looks like she is at least in her late 20s. If they are stepsisters, they should be around the same age.
      I actually just came up with a theory about 10-15 minutes ago.

      So Out Of The Past confirms that Anastasia is the Red Queen at least 8 years prior to Hat Trick, which is more than likely after The Price Of Gold (the beginning part, anyway). My theory is this.

      Anastasia is the eldest of the Tremaine daughters, being about 18 at the time of "Heart Of Stone", while Ella, Drizella and a third unnamed sister are all about 11-13. After having become Red Queen and having lost Will's love, she decides to make amends with her mother and please her by showing her royal status. She kidnaps Mrs. Rabbit and forces Percy to take her to the Enchanted Forest. She finds her mother and sisters at Prince Thomas' ball and all four are absolutely dumbfounded when they realize he's chosen Ella, who appears wearing a luxurious pair of glass slippers and ballgown. Ana, feeling like a failure, rushes out of the ball and runs into the forest, where she bumps into Jafar.

      Jafar, who has just come from Regina's palace searching for the Genie (who is now the Magic Mirror) thinking it might've been Cyrus, ends up discovering Ana is a Queen of Wonderland, where Cyrus truly resides. They agree to work together after he confesses his goal is to break the laws of magic, allowing her to alter the past. They then use Percy to travel to Wonderland. She would be about 26 or so here, and then after that would be the events of "Down The Rabbit Hole" and "Who's Alice", then the Curse and 28 years of time freezing caused by the Curse, and then lastly the present-day Wonderland events.

      It would all fit, and would give us an explanation of how Jafar and Ana met, how Jafar got to Wonderland, it would let us see more of Cinderella's story and would explain why Ana was never brought up during Price Of Gold.

      I love this theory!

      Thank you so much! ^_^

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    • Why did the show continue to refer to Emma as "the Savior" after she had broken the first curse? Aside from helping Regina save Storybrooke in the Season 2 finale, she hasn't really played a major role in defeating the Big Bad after Season 1.

      I have one more question. How was Regina able to absorb and later, dissipate the spell used by Rumpelstiltskin to block the portal between the Enchanted Forest and Storybrooke? He used magic from fairy dust and his own.

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    • Some nicknames never die. It's a symbol of Emma embracing the situation and her role in it.

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    • Utter solitude wrote: Some nicknames never die. It's a symbol of Emma embracing the situation and her role in it.


      Then why did Emma continue to feel that she had to always save everyone or guarantee their "happy ending"?

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    • Because that's Emma. That's like asking why Regina struggles not to be evil.

      A lot of faith was put in Emma, she struggled with that, and then accepted it. To her, it's her job to help everyone.

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    • CTrent wrote:

      Utter solitude wrote: Some nicknames never die. It's a symbol of Emma embracing the situation and her role in it.

      Then why did Emma continue to feel that she had to always save everyone or guarantee their "happy ending"?

      Because she was destined to give everyone their happy endings after breaking the Curse. Breaking the Curse did not automatically give people happy endings, so now she has to manually give everyone their happy endings.

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    • Which is an impossible task. She will give everyone she likes happy endings spefically.

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    • Her job is to make sure no one takes the happy endings, so she has to defeat the villains. If a villain wins, it's bye bye happy endings. So basically, she can't let that happen

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    • There is a minor thing that has been bothering me.The Genie aka Sidney said to King Leopold that in his time he had granted 1001 wishes.They clearly wanted to make it a reference to "1001 Arabian Nights" the only problem is that 1001 is not divisible by 3,and doesn't each person get three wishes?...

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    • ^1002 is, maybe one of the guys died before making their last wish?

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    • Interesting idea, but then there would have been 2 wishes left in the lamp ,one belongs to that poor guy who died a second after the had found a megic lamp (a piece of bad luck if you ask me XD) and the second - to King Leopold who chose not to use it. If I recall right- sidney specifically sait there was just one more wish in the lamp. 

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    • Oops, I ment said...

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    • Miss Starr wrote:
      There is a minor thing that has been bothering me.The Genie aka Sidney said to King Leopold that in his time he had granted 1001 wishes.They clearly wanted to make it a reference to "1001 Arabian Nights" the only problem is that 1001 is not divisible by 3,and doesn't each person get three wishes?...

      That could easily mean multiple people died during the course of their 1st, 2nd or 3rd wishes. ;) When one master dies, the wishes reset. It's never stated but it's implied in Wonderland. If Jafar had killed Alice, Cyrus would've gone back into his bottle and his bottle would've disappeared again, waiting for a new master.

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    • In Darkness at the Edge of Town when Mary Margaret goes back to teaching Henry is seen in her class, but Henry should be in middle school at that point.

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    • Considering she is his teacher in both 2011 and 2012, I'd say she teaches more than one grade.

      Or perhaps she keeps moving from class to class to follow Henry XD

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    • It's not uncommon for even elementary school children to have different teachers for different subjects. She might be his English teacher or something XD

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    • Retconning is a very legitimate storytelling tool, and can end up being used for any number of different reasons, so even if there have been what seems like an unusually large amount of retcons having happened with this series over the course of 4 seasons, I fail to see why it's such a problem.

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    • I honestly don't see that many retcons in the overall story.

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    • While retcon is a storytelling tool, it shows retrospective revising and that could be for the better of for the worst, but generally the readers or viewers tend to dislike it.

      The only major retcon in this story is the "You cannot truly love without a heart". That was stated by Cora which is why it became prevalent. She took out her heart so she could not feel love and be hindered by it. The worst part was watching season 3b and Wonderland side by side. Within the same few weeks you had Will get his heart removed to rid him of the heartbreak and love for Ana and then also have Regina truly loving and breaking the curse without her heart. That was jarring.

      However, the key part to any analysis is looking all over. Interestingly enough, Graham was able to truly love without his heart. So this was established prior to season 3. So, in essence, it's a retcon of a retcon. That's pretty much what makes it terrible to me. It's like they retconned that fact specifically for Cora and Will. Then they retconned it back for Regina to break the curse. That is the problem.

      There aren't many retcons in the show, most can be excused away as vague tellings of what happened. They leave reasonable size gaps within their narrative to fit things within a moment's notice. We have so many unnamed, unnumbered kingdoms (of the EF), undefined magic (they put a little in and not really defined because what can't Witchcraft do? If you say that it can't do three things then that would make Genies and Wizard/Witches the same in terms of capabilities), and ambiguity spread across the narrative in little pockets.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      While retcon is a storytelling tool, it shows retrospective revising and that could be for the better of for the worst, but generally the readers or viewers tend to dislike it.

      The only major retcon in this story is the "You cannot truly love without a heart". That was stated by Cora which is why it became prevalent. She took out her heart so she could not feel love and be hindered by it. The worst part was watching season 3b and Wonderland side by side. Within the same few weeks you had Will get his heart removed to rid him of the heartbreak and love for Ana and then also have Regina truly loving and breaking the curse without her heart. That was jarring.

      However, the key part to any analysis is looking all over. Interestingly enough, Graham was able to truly love without his heart. So this was established prior to season 3. So, in essence, it's a retcon of a retcon. That's pretty much what makes it terrible to me. It's like they retconned that fact specifically for Cora and Will. Then they retconned it back for Regina to break the curse. That is the problem.

      There aren't many retcons in the show, most can be excused away as vague tellings of what happened. They leave reasonable size gaps within their narrative to fit things within a moment's notice. We have so many unnamed, unnumbered kingdoms (of the EF), undefined magic (they put a little in and not really defined because what can't Witchcraft do? If you say that it can't do three things then that would make Genies and Wizard/Witches the same in terms of capabilities), and ambiguity spread across the narrative in little pockets.

      They didn't really retcon, though. Ana and Will had true love, but he was fighting it because of what she put him through. Cora loved Rumple, but she also fought it because she wanted status.

      Graham fell in love with Ruby in the EF and Emma in Storybrooke because he was opening himself and wanted to feel something, which he wasn't getting with Regina. And Regina herself was stated to feel with her very soul by Snow. The soul can be removed (as shown by the Wraith), but it can't be ripped out like the heart.

      Cora and Will shut down their hearts because they didn't want to love and without a heart, they didn't have to. Regina and Graham wanted to love, wanted to find something for themelves.

      At least that's how I see it.

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    • The fun issue is that retcons and flaws are going to vary from person to person. What you might see as an unforgivable continuity issue or ridiculous retcon, I might find perfect reasonable, or vice versa. We have a tendency as viewers to, when watching movies and TV shows, want to forget that we're watching a movie or show (if that makes sense). We want everything to match up perfectly and make total sense. Not a wrong way to think, but it does lend itself to finding more serious "errors" in what you're watching.

      Getting sidetracked here, but I actually talked to a guy at a comic-con who really, totally believed that TV shows are planned entirely from the beginning. They know how many seasons it will be on, and while they may not write every episode immediately, they know how the plot is going to go. He told me that all retcons are just lazy writers, since it's all planned out beforehand. That's the extreme example, but he had a really negative view of most TV shows because of it. The majority of us know how the writing process works, but this guy was just delightful XD


      Off top, the only retcon that ever really bothered me was (as Apple mentioned earlier in this discussion) Snow White telling Charming that Regina poisoned her because she was prettier than her. When we found out that wasn't the case, it bothered me for a while. Of course, that claim was made in the pilot, before the show was picked up and characters were fleshed out, but it still bugged me during season one.

      Now, of course, knowing Snow White much more intimately than we did then, I just think she was full of it XD That's my personal explanation for a lot of the minor issues in the show.

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    • Good television shows are planned. Maybe not how many seasons, but they should know what is their end game and what their characters are gowing to face and when, every good story need a structure. Honestly, I really like Once Upon A Time but at the same time I know that it is not good, one of the reasons is the fact that it isn't very planned. Every season feels like a cartoon episode where the things that the characters face and go through don't have any effect afterwards.

      The biggest retcon that bothers me is the rules of the Dark Curse and how they change however it suits the plot.

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    • I promised not to complain so much about OUAT mistakes after the PLL finale. I'll try, then XD

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    • Farerb wrote:
      Good television shows are planned. Maybe not how many seasons, but they should know what is their end game and what their characters are gowing to face and when, every good story need a structure. Honestly, I really like Once Upon A Time but at the same time I know that it is not good, one of the reasons is the fact that it isn't very planned. Every season feels like a cartoon episode where the things that the characters face and go through don't have any effect afterwards.

      The biggest retcon that bothers me is the rules of the Dark Curse and how they change however it suits the plot.

      Not necessarily. Once is planned too. I beleive the writers know what their endgame will be, just not how many roadbumps they'll have and if that endgame changes. Once Upon a time does good with casting, costumes, and some other things. I actually like this way better than having episodic villains which would make it like a cartoon episode.

      Once, long ago, I was reading online and people said Once had bad writing and was campy, but I didn't relly see any of that then. To me Season 1 was quite serious, season 2 was finding the balance of campy fun and seriousness. Season 3a pretty serious, but then went quite campy afterwards. But that is for another thread.

      The rules of the Dark Curse weren't retconned as far as I know. Downplayed and avoided, yes, but not retconned.

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    • FrancisPaul wrote:
      I promised not to complain so much about OUAT mistakes after the PLL finale. I'll try, then XD

      I agree that there are far worse shows than Once.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      Good television shows are planned. Maybe not how many seasons, but they should know what is their end game and what their characters are gowing to face and when, every good story need a structure. Honestly, I really like Once Upon A Time but at the same time I know that it is not good, one of the reasons is the fact that it isn't very planned. Every season feels like a cartoon episode where the things that the characters face and go through don't have any effect afterwards.

      The biggest retcon that bothers me is the rules of the Dark Curse and how they change however it suits the plot.

      Not necessarily. Once is planned too. I beleive the writers know what their endgame will be, just not how many roadbumps they'll have and if that endgame changes. Once Upon a time does good with casting, costumes, and some other things. I actually like this way better than having episodic villains which would make it like a cartoon episode.

      Once, long ago, I was reading online and people said Once had bad writing and was campy, but I didn't relly see any of that then. To me Season 1 was quite serious, season 2 was finding the balance of campy fun and seriousness. Season 3a pretty serious, but then went quite campy afterwards. But that is for another thread.

      The rules of the Dark Curse weren't retconned as far as I know. Downplayed and avoided, yes, but not retconned.

      The first season is great, but I do see why people thought that way. Espacially how they lived in the real world without actually living in it and things that may seem very illogical (there's a thread about how could Henry find Emma) or how its tone was very uneven - one episode had Red turning into a werewolf and eating her boyfriend, when the previous episode had fully grown man hatching from an egg. Unfortunatly, the chose to stick with the latter.

      I like having long arcs and not episodic structure, but I do think both are meaningless if they don't have any long effect on the characters. In the end, the characters are what matters. When you go back to a story is because you care about the characters and what happens to them. When the same thing happens to them over and over and they never change then it's not that thrilling and exciting story.

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    • I think the writing, overall, is perfectly fine. There are some minor issues, but every show has its issues.

      Of course, the more we sit and pick something apart, the more issues we find XD it's the nature of enjoying something to tear it apart, I guess.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      I think the writing, overall, is perfectly fine. There are some minor issues, but every show has its issues.

      Of course, the more we sit and pick something apart, the more issues we find XD it's the nature of enjoying something to tear it apart, I guess.

      You don't really have to pick it that much apart to see its flaws. The writing might not be bad, but it's not good either. They could do much better, I think their main problem is that they don't have enough patience to tell a whole solid story.

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    • I couldn't disagree with you more XD I don't think I'd watch a show if I had issues with the writing.

      But we're getting off topic XD


      Back to it, another thing that annoys me (albeit slightly) is accents. Child Geppetto has an American accent, but as an adult, it's Italian. Malcolm had a Scottish accent, but when he became Peter Pan, it's suddenly British.

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    • Accents are fairly regional or so. Geppetto seemed to have American accent parents so, I'm not surprised. However, we've never seen where he lived for the rest of his life. But given that he lived either in the same villaige as Granny, or closeby, means he's just an outlier to the extreme.

      For Malcolm, I think Malcolm may have had a british accent when young and then it slowly morphed into a Scottish accent or something. Not that I know how accents work, but Malcolm simply having a British accent would have been okay too. I think they tried to make Malcolm seem like Rumple's father with the sueeing and accent, but also wanted the British Peter Pan.

      It also has to do with integration into the region. We know very little about EF, especially during Rumple's time. They seem to live in a mostly British accent place, with some American accents amongst the peasant folk and poor. That would explain why Baelfire has always had an American accent over a British or Scottish one.

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    • ^^^^Everything you've said above is exactly why it doesn't bother me so much. But it's still a little jarring.

      What bothers me more is the seeming picking and choosing of where/when they are or aren't going to use an accent, whether it's the actor's natural accent or one they put on.

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    • Well, for the most part I think they are consistent. I'd like to blame it on exact detailing of a character and worldbuilding and stuff.

      I never really picked up on the accents, besides Emilie's during that Lacey sneak peak.  I think one of the good things I liked was Rumple changing his voice a bit to suit who's he interacting with. He doesn't do that much anymore, but He used a Brirish accent-ish when talking to Nottingham and changes it a bit when talking in his golden imp form. Lana also does good distinguishing between young Regina, Evil Queen era Regina, Madam Mayor and now. I do love the voice acting!

      Edit: Apparently, your accent is very malleable up into your twenties. So, it's fairly reasonable.

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    • Oh I agree that they do an excellent job overall.

      There are just a couple instances that I found odd that bug me, but not in a big way.

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    • Eskaver wrote: While retcon is a storytelling tool, it shows retrospective revising and that could be for the better of for the worst, but generally the readers or viewers tend to dislike it.

      Which is honestly a silly and misguided viewpoint to have.

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    • Because she was destined to give everyone their happy endings after breaking the Curse. Breaking the Curse did not automatically give people happy endings, so now she has to manually give everyone their happy endings.


      Okay, this sounds incredibly stupid and unrealistic . . . even for a fictional story.  Horowitz and Kitsis has taken this "savior complex" too far.

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    • I'm not sure how much planned the show was after Season 2. 

      They sure had some ideas, like Neal=Baelfire=Henry's dad but overall.... I don't know. Some things felt forced.

      -They totally messed up the Sleeping Beauty storyline. We don't even know how they brought Phillip back.... and that was 3 years ago!

      -The Home Office thing was never fully explained.

      -The whole "Snow and Emma in the EF" arc was kind of pointless.

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      I'm not sure how much planned the show was after Season 2. 

      They sure had some ideas, like Neal=Baelfire=Henry's dad but overall.... I don't know. Some things felt forced.

      -They totally messed up the Sleeping Beauty storyline. We don't even know how they brought Phillip back.... and that was 3 years ago!

      -The Home Office thing was never fully explained.

      -The whole "Snow and Emma in the EF" arc was kind of pointless.

      I will definitely agree that Sleeping Beauty wasn't as fleshed out as it could be. But considering they've hinted that the true Sleeping Beauty story happened with Briar Rose, Aurora's mother, then we might get it someday.

      The Home Office was just the Lost Boys ordering around the Darling brothers, who in turn recruited Greg/Owen and Tamara under the false pretense of destroying magic but in actuality just to kidnap Henry.

      The 2A storyline was so Emma could see where she came from and to introduce Hook and Cora.

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    • I think they have an overall plan  and what they want to hit and where it will end up, but then "Oh, shiny new toy" kicks in an messes somethings up and I doubt they plan the specifics before the season.

      Like Zelena's death and return. I think they thought like a week later.....what if she didn't die and that it wasn't priorly planned to definitely bring her back. That's why I think they leave many things vague to manipulate it it in future episodes and seasons.

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    • Most television series that are not sitcoms or purely episodic in nature operate in similar fashion, with the overall beats of a given season-wide storyline being discussed and laid out in broad strokes by the showrunner(s), with individual episode arcs and storylines also being contributed by other members of the writing team over the course of a season, with adjustments/alterations to individual episode ideas being made to accomodate the overall narrative flow of the season as previously laid out.

      Once Upon a Time, in spite of public perception to the contrary, does very much adhere to this model. There HAVE been a couple of obvious instances where the pre-planned broad-strokes season-wide narrative has been changed, resulting in things that make it seem as if there's no overall narrative plan, but said instances are very much the exception rather than the rule, and it's unfortunate and sad that public perception regarding the way in which the series is run has developed contrary to what the reality actually is.

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    • ^^^ This.

      Besides, you can't truly plan specifically too far in advance. When you start developing a show, of course you have a broad outline of what's going to occur, and specifics for each season, but as the seasons go on and the show goes on, those plans have to change. Maybe a character takes a different path than originally expected. Maybe an actor that was meant to have a big role is not available the next season. Every show has to adapt to these things. It's not bad writing or poor planning, it's the fact that you can't set things in stone.

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    • The best example I can think of when it comes to illustrating exactly how a serialized television series such as Once Upon a Time is handled behind-the-scenes is J. Michael Strazynski's epic "novel for television" Babylon 5. The series was meticulously planned with a cohesive and singular narrative arc that spanned 5 seasons' worth of television, but said arc underwent several significant alterations over the course of the series' air-life. The end goal of the series and its overall narrative trajectory and foundation never changed, but the process by which said narrative trajectory was ultimately reached had to be because of factors beyond JMS' control and things that he never could've anticipated when designing the series in the 'creative vacuum' of his mind.

      The same thing can very much be said of Once Upon a Time, particularly if/when you're aware of the fact that they actually developed the conceptual foundations for the series way back in 2002, and if you're paying attention to the myriad preliforation of clues, easter eggs, and narrative hints that were liberally sprinkled throughout the entirety of the first season and that have continued to be sprinkled throughout the subsequent seasons as well.

      IOW, if you're paying attention, it's very easy to understand and see that Adam and Eddy do in fact know what they're doing and do in fact have a plan, even if they've been occasionally forced to alter that plan because of circumstances beyond their control.

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    • To play Devil's Advocate, they aren't too big on backwards continuity anymore. Season 1 was one big cohesive story, but then pretty much most things from season 1 were dropped a few episodes into season 2 (Jefferson's role, whatever it was, Ruby, scenarios like when Charming said he never heard of the Mad Hatter but David remembered reading Alice In Wonderland, that sort of mental duality). Aside from Shattered Sight and Bleeding Through, when have we heard Snow address killing Cora after season 2? Much less address the blackness of her heart? Or y'know, had Rumple mention his dad again? Emma casually mentioning Ingrid in the Lily flashbacks?

      They may have a great plan and know how to get there, but along the way, they're making the show less serialized and more episodic and there has to be a balance. The best thing they did in season 4 in terms of backward continuity was mention Graham and Whale's one-night stand with Snow in 4A.

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    • I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand what serialization actually is and the myriad different ways in which it can manifest itself.

      The show is still as serialized as it's ever been; the showrunners and writers are just manifesting that serialization in a different fashion than they did during the earlier seasons.

      The approach to serialization that is currently being used on the show is much closer to what was used for Once Upon a Time in Wonderland and that has been used by shows such as Extant, Under the Dome, and other 'limited series'-type shows where they're telling stories that are by and large narrowly focused and self-contained but have connective tissue to a larger myth-arc.

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    • DigificWriter wrote:
      I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand what serialization actually is and the myriad different ways in which it can manifest itself.

      The show is still as serialized as it's ever been; the showrunners and writers are just manifesting that serialization in a different fashion than they did during the earlier seasons.

      The approach to serialization that is currently being used on the show is much closer to what was used for Once Upon a Time in Wonderland and that has been used by shows such as Extant, Under the Dome, and other 'limited series'-type shows where they're telling stories that are by and large narrowly focused and self-contained but have connective tissue to a larger myth-arc.

      Lol. There isn't any larger myth-arc. Since 3B there is an arc and then a different arc that has no connection to the rest arcs. Only different characters with the same nams and romantic partners.

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    • If you're going to disagree with me, you might want to have your facts straight.

      You ARE correct that the past two seasons have consisted of two largely self-contained and narrowly focused stories, but you're also patently and demonstrably wrong when it comes to there being no connective tissue between said stories.

      It's honestly beginning to seem as if people want Once Upon a Time to just be a 'turn-off-your-brain' show that you don't have to put any deeper thought into when it comes to following what's going on, but that is not what the show is and would, if I might be frank, not be worth watching if it were.

      Once Upon a Time is as interesting as it is because you have to actually be paying intimate attention to the stories being told in order to understand how what we are being shown ties together, particularly with the serialization format currently being employed by the showrunners.

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    • Yes, it is interesting and I love to analyze the show, but sometimes they don't do "Show, don't tell" really good. Other times they .......I remember the time when they had Rumple state his evil plan every episode and three times in the midseason finale. That is rather annoying.

      Sometimes the actors and writers see things within their character that we don't see or have seen on screen. At times, they seem to refer to past events like a vaguely annoying memory from arc to arc.

      Sometimes, I feel as though the runners want people to turn off their brains when watching. It's no Dora the Explorer, but it varies in what it wants to be. Extremely detailed and thought out or a kid's show (not saying that it is). However, that also has the writers of each episode as an important factor. For me, Adam and Eddy tend to write the best episodes, but then the others vary in quality.

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    • Maybe it's the Joss Whedon and JMS fan in me, but I look at what Adam and Eddy and the other writers are doing and have done thus far (both in terms of the things they have said and the things that they have shown us) in a far different light than many others, and just do not see the justification, in many instances, for the criticism and mentality that I see a lot of fans of the series expressing both here and elsewhere, and firmly believe that there is an erroneous perception out there that there are far more issues with the series in terms of its overall continuity and mythology than there actually are.

      A good example of this erroneous perception (as I see it, anyway) is the narrative transition between the Cora story arc of Season 2 and the 'endgame' Season 2 arc involving Greg, Tamara, and Peter Pan that led into and dominated the first portion of Season 3.

      It seems to have been taken for granted amongst the fandom that Cora was originally supposed to be the "Big Bad" for the entirety of Season 2, but that Adam and Eddy changed their minds 'midstream' when they found out that they had the rights to use characters from Peter Pan, but the truth of the situation (as can be demonstrated by comments that Adam and Eddy themselves made) is that, fan perception to the contrary aside, the Cora arc played itself out exactly as it was intended to, with the Greg/Tamara/Pan arc being introduced exactly as intended and exactly on schedule.

      I firmly believe, based on their comments and on the things that we were shown, that Adam and Eddy were intentionally emulating something that Joss Whedon had done years earlier with the fourth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is to lead the fandom to believe that their storyline was going in one direction, only to intentionally reveal that it was actually going in an entirely different direction.

      It is unfortunate that this intentional emulation of Joss' storytelling technique for the fourth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (which I believe to be much better than fandom perception says that it is, being the fourth-best season of the series behind Seasons 6, 5, and 3) was received by the fandom in much the same way (with criticism and the erroneous idea that things were changed 'midstream' even though it can be demonstrated that such is not actually the case), because if you actually sit back and analyze what was really happening, the way in which the storylines from both BtVS Season 4 and OUaT S2 play themselves out is actually quite brilliant and inspired.

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    • DigificWriter wrote:
      Maybe it's the Joss Whedon and JMS fan in me, but I look at what Adam and Eddy and the other writers are doing and have done thus far (both in terms of the things they have said and the things that they have shown us) in a far different light than many others, and just do not see the justification, in many instances, for the criticism and mentality that I see a lot of fans of the series expressing both here and elsewhere, and firmly believe that there is an erroneous perception out there that there are far more issues with the series in terms of its overall continuity and mythology than there actually are.

      A good example of this erroneous perception (as I see it, anyway) is the narrative transition between the Cora story arc of Season 2 and the 'endgame' Season 2 arc involving Greg, Tamara, and Peter Pan that led into and dominated the first portion of Season 3.

      It seems to have been taken for granted amongst the fandom that Cora was originally supposed to be the "Big Bad" for the entirety of Season 2, but that Adam and Eddy changed their minds 'midstream' when they found out that they had the rights to use characters from Peter Pan, but the truth of the situation (as can be demonstrated by comments that Adam and Eddy themselves made) is that, fan perception to the contrary aside, the Cora arc played itself out exactly as it was intended to, with the Greg/Tamara/Pan arc being introduced exactly as intended and exactly on schedule.

      I firmly believe, based on their comments and on the things that we were shown, that Adam and Eddy were intentionally emulating something that Joss Whedon had done years earlier with the fourth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is to lead the fandom to believe that their storyline was going in one direction, only to intentionally reveal that it was actually going in an entirely different direction.

      It is unfortunate that this intentional emulation of Joss' storytelling technique for the fourth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (which I believe to be much better than fandom perception says that it is, being the fourth-best season of the series behind Seasons 6, 5, and 3) was received by the fandom in much the same way (with criticism and the erroneous idea that things were changed 'midstream' even though it can be demonstrated that such is not actually the case), because if you actually sit back and analyze what was really happening, the way in which the storylines from both BtVS Season 4 and OUaT S2 play themselves out is actually quite brilliant and inspired.

      Im sorry but the two are not comparable at all. In S4 of Buffy, you can see that it was planned that way. Prof Walsh was a build up to Adam and the problems with the Initiative, so it wasn't that off-plot that they killed her and brought Adam. Whereas in Once, it was "oh yeah we have Pan so it's time to let Cora go and have the two normal human characters that no one cares about as the big threat of the second season finale.

      I'm actually surprised that you as a Buffy fan fail to see the problems with Once. I get that they both have the same concept of fantasy series of good vs evil. However, on Buffy, it was always about the characters, their lives and Buffy's relationships with her friends ans her relationship with her family. It was never about the villains, they were just the obstacle, and how they affect the core characters life. Even the most minor characters were well-rounded and flashed (more than main characters of Once). In Once, it's always about the plot, always how are going to defeat this and that. You rarely see characters have a talk about emotions or just a normal every day conversation. The Villains are not about how they affect their lives they are their lives. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Well, in season two, they did eventually get the rights to Neverland and stuff, but you claerly see how they dropped plans with Tamara and Greg by killing them off swiftly. Likely a change of plans or fan reception which is a good thing, but also shows that they change minds at a varying degree.

      Example: Frozen was not planned to be in Once. They did great, but they messed up everything else and tried to plan around it to keep up what they had planend before.

      .........Let's get back on topic. Continuity Flaws and retcons and not this ordeal of runners and their pursuits.

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    • DigificWriter wrote:
      Maybe it's the Joss Whedon and JMS fan in me, but I look at what Adam and Eddy and the other writers are doing and have done thus far (both in terms of the things they have said and the things that they have shown us) in a far different light than many others, and just do not see the justification, in many instances, for the criticism and mentality that I see a lot of fans of the series expressing both here and elsewhere, and firmly believe that there is an erroneous perception out there that there are far more issues with the series in terms of its overall continuity and mythology than there actually are.

      A good example of this erroneous perception (as I see it, anyway) is the narrative transition between the Cora story arc of Season 2 and the 'endgame' Season 2 arc involving Greg, Tamara, and Peter Pan that led into and dominated the first portion of Season 3.

      It seems to have been taken for granted amongst the fandom that Cora was originally supposed to be the "Big Bad" for the entirety of Season 2, but that Adam and Eddy changed their minds 'midstream' when they found out that they had the rights to use characters from Peter Pan, but the truth of the situation (as can be demonstrated by comments that Adam and Eddy themselves made) is that, fan perception to the contrary aside, the Cora arc played itself out exactly as it was intended to, with the Greg/Tamara/Pan arc being introduced exactly as intended and exactly on schedule.

      I firmly believe, based on their comments and on the things that we were shown, that Adam and Eddy were intentionally emulating something that Joss Whedon had done years earlier with the fourth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is to lead the fandom to believe that their storyline was going in one direction, only to intentionally reveal that it was actually going in an entirely different direction.

      It is unfortunate that this intentional emulation of Joss' storytelling technique for the fourth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (which I believe to be much better than fandom perception says that it is, being the fourth-best season of the series behind Seasons 6, 5, and 3) was received by the fandom in much the same way (with criticism and the erroneous idea that things were changed 'midstream' even though it can be demonstrated that such is not actually the case), because if you actually sit back and analyze what was really happening, the way in which the storylines from both BtVS Season 4 and OUaT S2 play themselves out is actually quite brilliant and inspired.

      Except no one's ever complained about Cora dying when she did? We all know that was always the plan.

      When people bring up the Home Office mess, it's because both Greg and Tamara were such a big part of the second half of season 2, only to both be killed off brutally in the first episode of season 3, and both of them only ever getting one other mention after that.

      It seemed messy, sloppy and done only to dive into the Peter Pan arc because people were so fed up with Greg and Tamara. It makes it look like they scrapped whatever the Home Office arc was to give us Peter Pan because fans were disinterested. And that to me was stupid. Really stupid. Yeah, these two characters sucked, but don't throw away the plotline because people don't like it. Make it better so we WILL like it.

      That was the beginning of the disjointed continuity for most of us.

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    • Farerb wrote:
      DigificWriter wrote:
      Maybe it's the Joss Whedon and JMS fan in me, but I look at what Adam and Eddy and the other writers are doing and have done thus far (both in terms of the things they have said and the things that they have shown us) in a far different light than many others, and just do not see the justification, in many instances, for the criticism and mentality that I see a lot of fans of the series expressing both here and elsewhere, and firmly believe that there is an erroneous perception out there that there are far more issues with the series in terms of its overall continuity and mythology than there actually are.

      A good example of this erroneous perception (as I see it, anyway) is the narrative transition between the Cora story arc of Season 2 and the 'endgame' Season 2 arc involving Greg, Tamara, and Peter Pan that led into and dominated the first portion of Season 3.

      It seems to have been taken for granted amongst the fandom that Cora was originally supposed to be the "Big Bad" for the entirety of Season 2, but that Adam and Eddy changed their minds 'midstream' when they found out that they had the rights to use characters from Peter Pan, but the truth of the situation (as can be demonstrated by comments that Adam and Eddy themselves made) is that, fan perception to the contrary aside, the Cora arc played itself out exactly as it was intended to, with the Greg/Tamara/Pan arc being introduced exactly as intended and exactly on schedule.

      I firmly believe, based on their comments and on the things that we were shown, that Adam and Eddy were intentionally emulating something that Joss Whedon had done years earlier with the fourth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is to lead the fandom to believe that their storyline was going in one direction, only to intentionally reveal that it was actually going in an entirely different direction.

      It is unfortunate that this intentional emulation of Joss' storytelling technique for the fourth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (which I believe to be much better than fandom perception says that it is, being the fourth-best season of the series behind Seasons 6, 5, and 3) was received by the fandom in much the same way (with criticism and the erroneous idea that things were changed 'midstream' even though it can be demonstrated that such is not actually the case), because if you actually sit back and analyze what was really happening, the way in which the storylines from both BtVS Season 4 and OUaT S2 play themselves out is actually quite brilliant and inspired.

      Im sorry but the two are not comparable at all. In S4 of Buffy, you can see that it was planned that way. Prof Walsh was a build up to Adam and the problems with the Initiative, so it wasn't that off-plot that they killed her and brought Adam. Whereas in Once, it was "oh yeah we have Pan so it's time to let Cora go and have the two normal human characters that no one cares about as the big threat of the second season finale.

      I'm actually surprised that you as a Buffy fan fail to see the problems with Once. I get that they both have the same concept of fantasy series of good vs evil. However, on Buffy, it was always about the characters, their lives and Buffy's relationships with her friends ans her relationship with her family. It was never about the villains, they were just the obstacle, and how they affect the core characters life. Even the most minor characters were well-rounded and flashed (more than main characters of Once). In Once, it's always about the plot, always how are going to defeat this and that. You rarely see characters have a talk about emotions or just a normal every day conversation. The Villains are not about how they affect their lives they are their lives. 

      The rights to use Peter Pan were secured MONTHS before the final episodes of Season 2 were written.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      DigificWriter wrote:
      Maybe it's the Joss Whedon and JMS fan in me, but I look at what Adam and Eddy and the other writers are doing and have done thus far (both in terms of the things they have said and the things that they have shown us) in a far different light than many others, and just do not see the justification, in many instances, for the criticism and mentality that I see a lot of fans of the series expressing both here and elsewhere, and firmly believe that there is an erroneous perception out there that there are far more issues with the series in terms of its overall continuity and mythology than there actually are.

      A good example of this erroneous perception (as I see it, anyway) is the narrative transition between the Cora story arc of Season 2 and the 'endgame' Season 2 arc involving Greg, Tamara, and Peter Pan that led into and dominated the first portion of Season 3.

      It seems to have been taken for granted amongst the fandom that Cora was originally supposed to be the "Big Bad" for the entirety of Season 2, but that Adam and Eddy changed their minds 'midstream' when they found out that they had the rights to use characters from Peter Pan, but the truth of the situation (as can be demonstrated by comments that Adam and Eddy themselves made) is that, fan perception to the contrary aside, the Cora arc played itself out exactly as it was intended to, with the Greg/Tamara/Pan arc being introduced exactly as intended and exactly on schedule.

      I firmly believe, based on their comments and on the things that we were shown, that Adam and Eddy were intentionally emulating something that Joss Whedon had done years earlier with the fourth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is to lead the fandom to believe that their storyline was going in one direction, only to intentionally reveal that it was actually going in an entirely different direction.

      It is unfortunate that this intentional emulation of Joss' storytelling technique for the fourth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (which I believe to be much better than fandom perception says that it is, being the fourth-best season of the series behind Seasons 6, 5, and 3) was received by the fandom in much the same way (with criticism and the erroneous idea that things were changed 'midstream' even though it can be demonstrated that such is not actually the case), because if you actually sit back and analyze what was really happening, the way in which the storylines from both BtVS Season 4 and OUaT S2 play themselves out is actually quite brilliant and inspired.

      Except no one's ever complained about Cora dying when she did? We all know that was always the plan.

      When people bring up the Home Office mess, it's because both Greg and Tamara were such a big part of the second half of season 2, only to both be killed off brutally in the first episode of season 3, and both of them only ever getting one other mention after that.

      It seemed messy, sloppy and done only to dive into the Peter Pan arc because people were so fed up with Greg and Tamara. It makes it look like they scrapped whatever the Home Office arc was to give us Peter Pan because fans were disinterested. And that to me was stupid. Really stupid. Yeah, these two characters sucked, but don't throw away the plotline because people don't like it. Make it better so we WILL like it.

      That was the beginning of the disjointed continuity for most of us.

       

      As I just pointed out above, the rights to use Peter Pan and related characters were secured MONTHS before the final episodes of Season 2 and the beginning episodes of Season 3 were written, so it is clear that Greg and Tamara were used exactly as they were intended to be.

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    • The rights were secured before the ending sequence, but that makes it all the worse. If they suddenly got the rights foe Neverland then it makes since that they dropped everything (poorly), but if they had the rights then they had no reason to do so in that way. That is a mindset of naivete (not saying you're naive), but the Home Office was made to be of more importance and it's naive to think "Oh yes, this was a part of their genius plan." If it was, then it upsetted people.

      You can't always argue on their side as if they are faultless. Example, without a heart you can't love (season2) Then in Season 3b, they said you can truly love without a heart. At the same time and month, Wonderland was airing and it said that you can't love without a heart. That shows poor planning and just discontinuity aka totally made up rules.

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    • DigificWriter wrote:

      As I just pointed out above, the rights to use Peter Pan and related characters were secured MONTHS before the final episodes of Season 2 and the beginning episodes of Season 3 were written, so it is clear that Greg and Tamara were used exactly as they were intended to be.

      Exactly.... it was pretty obvious from the start that Greg and Tamara, along with the whole "Home Office", was just a red herring. It was to help cover up that Peter Pan was going to be a villian, on OUaT.

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    • Adam, Eddy, and the writers haven't always handled things as smoothly as they might have, but many of the things that people want to fault them for are either based on erroneous perceptions (the idea that the writers changed their minds 'midstream' with regards to the Peter Pan storyline vs. the Cora storyline) or aren't actually negatives (making retcons).

      We know that the rights to use Peter Pan were secured before Season 2 even went into production because of the fact that Adam and Eddy and Co. were able to include the character of Captain Hook in promotional materials for it that were aired at the conclusion of Season 1.

      Disney had already opened themselves up to potential legal trouble by releasing Return to Neverland without securing permission from the Peter Pan rights holders to do so; allowing the Once Upon a Time showrunners to use Peter Pan-related characters - especially when those characters were not directly based on anything that Disney had previously done with them - would have further exacerbated the potential for legal challenge, and i is clear that they recognized that and therefore worked with the OUaT showrunners and ABC in order to properly secure the licensing rights.

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    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:
      DigificWriter wrote:

      As I just pointed out above, the rights to use Peter Pan and related characters were secured MONTHS before the final episodes of Season 2 and the beginning episodes of Season 3 were written, so it is clear that Greg and Tamara were used exactly as they were intended to be.

      Exactly.... it was pretty obvious from the start that Greg and Tamara, along with the whole "Home Office", was just a red herring. It was to help cover up that Peter Pan was going to be a villian, on OUaT.

      It wasn't a red herring. A red herring does not last almost half a season, it doesn't have its own backstory and it's not the "climax" of the season finale.

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    • Farerb wrote:
      ChocolatEyes613 wrote:
      DigificWriter wrote:

      As I just pointed out above, the rights to use Peter Pan and related characters were secured MONTHS before the final episodes of Season 2 and the beginning episodes of Season 3 were written, so it is clear that Greg and Tamara were used exactly as they were intended to be.

      Exactly.... it was pretty obvious from the start that Greg and Tamara, along with the whole "Home Office", was just a red herring. It was to help cover up that Peter Pan was going to be a villian, on OUaT.
      It wasn't a red herring. A red herring does not last almost half a season, it doesn't have its own backstory and it's not the "climax" of the season finale.

      It wasn't a 'red herring' per se, but it also wasn't a 'course correction'. The way in which that storyline played itself out was clearly intentional, right down to the deaths of Greg and Tamara in the Season 3 premiere.

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    • DigificWriter wrote:
      Farerb wrote:
      ChocolatEyes613 wrote:
      DigificWriter wrote:

      As I just pointed out above, the rights to use Peter Pan and related characters were secured MONTHS before the final episodes of Season 2 and the beginning episodes of Season 3 were written, so it is clear that Greg and Tamara were used exactly as they were intended to be.

      Exactly.... it was pretty obvious from the start that Greg and Tamara, along with the whole "Home Office", was just a red herring. It was to help cover up that Peter Pan was going to be a villian, on OUaT.
      It wasn't a red herring. A red herring does not last almost half a season, it doesn't have its own backstory and it's not the "climax" of the season finale.
      It wasn't a 'red herring' per se, but it also wasn't a 'course correction'. The way in which that storyline played itself out was clearly intentional, right down to the deaths of Greg and Tamara in the Season 3 premiere.

      It clearly wasn't when Greg and Tamara outright claimed that magic itself had crossed over into our world before in amounts as extreme as Storybrooke, when that was later retconned to not be the case with Ingrid and Ursula/Cruella.

      They made the home office seem like a massive underground government institution. (Like for example, having the Black Diamond Trigger be investigated in less than a few days in-universe.)

      They were scrapped. Simple as that.

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    • Did anyone notice how the suddenly dropped the whole the outside world discovering us plot?

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    • Belle's Boyfriend wrote:
      Did anyone notice how the suddenly dropped the whole the outside world discovering us plot?

      Well, shortly after they left for Neverland, Belle enacted a cloaking spell, which still exists. It prevents people from the outside from seeing/entering Storybrooke.

      The only known way is Merlin's scroll.

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    • FrancisPaul wrote:
      Belle's Boyfriend wrote:
      Did anyone notice how the suddenly dropped the whole the outside world discovering us plot?
      Well, shortly after they left for Neverland, Belle enacted a cloaking spell, which still exists. It prevents people from the outside from seeing/entering Storybrooke.

      The only known way is Merlin's scroll.

      Not to mention.... the only people who ever entered Storybrooke, knew about its existance. 

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    • FrancisPaul wrote:
      Belle's Boyfriend wrote:
      Did anyone notice how the suddenly dropped the whole the outside world discovering us plot?
      Well, shortly after they left for Neverland, Belle enacted a cloaking spell, which still exists. It prevents people from the outside from seeing/entering Storybrooke.

      The only known way is Merlin's scroll.

      Actually, does the spell still exist? I got the feeling that when the Curse was undone in "Going Home", so was the cloaking spell, which is how Ingrid re-entered Storybrooke sometime off-screen in 3B. She had forgotten all that had happened to her in Storybrooke because it disappeared, but she had not forgotten that she needed to find it, since she knew that from before.

      Though to be fair, she also likely had Merlin's scroll with her that time as well.

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    • Plot hole or whatever. Emma and Hook, with Henry, entered into Storybrooke just fine. SO there must have been no spell around the town, which would be very stupid of zelena and anyone because someone could have rode up into their small town of chaos.

      Then the question is, how did magic remain contained. Magic was contained in the Storybrooke Bubble, but without a spell to contain it, you would think the magic would become "less dense" or whatever. I think it wasn't clearly thought through. Should have been Zelena cast containment spell that has you enter, but never leave.

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    • The second curse reseted SB. They didn't need to bring magic again, it was already there. Just as the spell. Everything was recreated as it was by 311.

      And Emma being the Savior can enter it anytime. She was also able to enter SB in Pilot even if outsiders can't see it (as proven by the cops Owen brings to the town oine)

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    • There was a spell around the town as Regina touched it When looking at Owen outside the line. What spell was that and why did they need another cloaking spell. So, did breaking the curse drop the already in tact cloaking spell, before Belle casted another one?

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      There was a spell around the town as Regina touched it When looking at Owen outside the line. What spell was that and why did they need another cloaking spell. So, did breaking the curse drop the already in tact cloaking spell, before Belle casted another one?

      Yes, it seems like breaking the Curse at the end of season 1 made Storybrooke an official part of the Land Without Magic. Releasing magic somehow did not make it escape into the regular world (that will probably never be explain). Since Storybrooke was now part of the LWM, people could come in, such as Tamara and Owen. Belle's spell protected it from outsiders, essentially isolating Storybrooke once again.

      And @FrancisPaul there was no protection spell in 3B, otherwise Emma wouldn't have needed the scroll in 4B if she could just come and go as she pleases due to being the savior.

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    • The town border is definitatly a continuity issue.  Season 1, there was "something" that prevented people from going over the line (except for Regina and Henry), though there was nothing that prevented making contact with people outside of SB. (All of the calls by Sydney to investigate regarding Henry's Birthmom, Regina calling adoption agencies, etc).  In "Welcome to Storybrooke", we see one time that there is some type of one-way protection spell during the first curse preventing people from outside from seeing SB.

      Season 2, there is nothing stopping crossing the town line, but there is a cost to crossing (restoration of false memories). And as far as we know, there is nothing preventing anyone from coming into town.  However, that cost only affects the SB residents that were brought over in the First Curse, not the ones that came after the curse was broken (Neal and Hook). And of course Regina.

      Season 3, Neverland, we have Belle restoring a cloaking spell, essentially blocking entry into storybrooke (except by magical means, such as Mermaid or Shadow).  Not too much is known, except that the cloaking spell (or some other relic of the curse) acted like a barrier to contain the Pan's Curse, and Regina's undoing of the original curse (watch the graphics, and it looks like smoke expanding in an overturned glass).

      After that, you have the Flying Monkey's guarding the border (so we don't know what the rules might be), and Ice Wall (physically prevented leaving SB), and finally the current state of the Town Line (which feels like it is back in the original state of a one-way barrier, just without the "something bad happens" when you try to leave).

      I think the writers just make the border be whatever they need it to be.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      The town border is definitatly a continuity issue.  Season 1, there was "something" that prevented people from going over the line (except for Regina and Henry), though there was nothing that prevented making contact with people outside of SB. (All of the calls by Sydney to investigate regarding Henry's Birthmom, Regina calling adoption agencies, etc).  In "Welcome to Storybrooke", we see one time that there is some type of one-way protection spell during the first curse preventing people from outside from seeing SB.

      Season 2, there is nothing stopping crossing the town line, but there is a cost to crossing (restoration of false memories). And as far as we know, there is nothing preventing anyone from coming into town.  However, that cost only affects the SB residents that were brought over in the First Curse, not the ones that came after the curse was broken (Neal and Hook). And of course Regina.

      Season 3, Neverland, we have Belle restoring a cloaking spell, essentially blocking entry into storybrooke (except by magical means, such as Mermaid or Shadow).  Not too much is known, except that the cloaking spell (or some other relic of the curse) acted like a barrier to contain the Pan's Curse, and Regina's undoing of the original curse (watch the graphics, and it looks like smoke expanding in an overturned glass).

      After that, you have the Flying Monkey's guarding the border (so we don't know what the rules might be), and Ice Wall (physically prevented leaving SB), and finally the current state of the Town Line (which feels like it is back in the original state of a one-way barrier, just without the "something bad happens" when you try to leave).

      I think the writers just make the border be whatever they need it to be.

      None of that is technically a continuity error. Season 2's condition is confirmed to be because of Rumple's reliance on magic and bringing it back to this world. Season 3B's condition is presumably identical to season 2's except the Flying Monkeys take everyone away before crossing over.

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    • It is also my understanding that if you are from the EF and not a victim of the curse you are free to enter Storybrooke, as seen by August and Hook.

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    • Begfhn wrote:
      It is also my understanding that if you are from the EF and not a victim of the curse you are free to enter Storybrooke, as seen by August and Hook.

      But only until 4A, as seen with Cruella, Lily and Ursula.

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    • yes. That was because pf the snow queen.

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    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:

      FrancisPaul wrote:
      Belle's Boyfriend wrote:
      Did anyone notice how the suddenly dropped the whole the outside world discovering us plot?
      Well, shortly after they left for Neverland, Belle enacted a cloaking spell, which still exists. It prevents people from the outside from seeing/entering Storybrooke.

      The only known way is Merlin's scroll.

      Not to mention.... the only people who ever entered Storybrooke, knew about its existance. 

      What i was meaning was that they had being saying about the real world finding out and hinting at that then Greg and Tamara came into it and it seemed like the were going in the direction of the real world finding them and entering Storybrooke (Similar to Charmed when the world found out they were witches.) Then Neverland comes and Greg and Tamara are killed off quicker than you can say Home Office Inconsistencys in the S3 Premiere! Only to that whole set up to a fairly interesting plot never to be spoken of again. Also while I'm here can anybody please tell me if they know what S3s alternate ending was? One was confirmed to be filmed to keep Frozen under wraps

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    • The Home Office isn't an inconsistency it's just LOST Potential. I use LOST Potential for all things Once can potentially set up, but never acts upon.

      THe HO being a real world organization had LOST Potential. Could have been interesting, but they had rights to Peter Pan and was like.....Oh well.  The Home Office could have been built up to be the Darlings working together and creating a secret society, but nope.

      Look at the J&M introduction. They introduce themselves as from the HO, but we already knew what the HO really was. They could have kept that a mystery until that episode, but they didn't.

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    • Belle's Boyfriend wrote:

      ChocolatEyes613 wrote:

      FrancisPaul wrote:
      Belle's Boyfriend wrote:
      Did anyone notice how the suddenly dropped the whole the outside world discovering us plot?
      Well, shortly after they left for Neverland, Belle enacted a cloaking spell, which still exists. It prevents people from the outside from seeing/entering Storybrooke.

      The only known way is Merlin's scroll.

      Not to mention.... the only people who ever entered Storybrooke, knew about its existance. 
      What i was meaning was that they had being saying about the real world finding out and hinting at that then Greg and Tamara came into it and it seemed like the were going in the direction of the real world finding them and entering Storybrooke (Similar to Charmed when the world found out they were witches.) Then Neverland comes and Greg and Tamara are killed off quicker than you can say Home Office Inconsistencys in the S3 Premiere! Only to that whole set up to a fairly interesting plot never to be spoken of again. Also while I'm here can anybody please tell me if they know what S3s alternate ending was? One was confirmed to be filmed to keep Frozen under wraps

      I honestly think it was Jafar. Considering Wonderland was over and Socha was hired as regular.

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    • FrancisPaul wrote:

      I honestly think it was Jafar. Considering Wonderland was over and Socha was hired as regular.

      The timeline does not add up.... OUaTiW took place during S2, and the urn time-traveled 30 years. It was probably going to be either Ursula or Cruella. How they got to "our world" was pretty random. There is also the possibility, that is was going to be Merlin who emerged.

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    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:
      FrancisPaul wrote:

      I honestly think it was Jafar. Considering Wonderland was over and Socha was hired as regular.

      The timeline does not add up.... OUaTiW took place during S2, and the urn time-traveled 30 years. It was probably going to be either Ursula or Cruella. How they got to "our world" was pretty random. There is also the possibility, that is was going to be Merlin who emerged.

      Right, I didn't know that the alternative finale was also a consequence of the time travel.

      I thought it was just some villain arriving in town.

      Yeah, probably Ursula then, who had already been hinted in 317 again

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    • Where does Henry sleep in Snows apartment? It has a bed on the main floor and a bed up stairs in a small loft type area, where it seems there is only space for one bed. We know Snow and Charming sleep on the main floor as we see them lying in bed and its where Snow spends all those days being depresed about Cora, Emma seems to sleep upstairs. So where does Henry sleep? Neal sleep in the living room in his crib. The apartment is tiny. Not only do they all live there where do they keep their belongings? Did Charming leave all his stuff and his furniture and his personal stuff all at his and Kathryns house? Did Henry leave all his stuff at Regina's. Yeah we know he has left most things like his bed and computer etc as we see it when he visits Regina but did he not take anything to his new home? There does not seem to be anything in the apartment that belongs to ANYONE other then Snow. There is also a continuity issue when Henry plans to develop Snow and Charmings room into a armory. With plans that show Snow and Charmings room was upstairs in the loft area. The location of the property changes whenever the writters need it too as well. 

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    • That loft is not "tiny". The downstairs floor is a good-sized open space. There could easily be two beds upstairs.

      This is one of those things you're just gonna boggle your mind with if you try to make it all make sense. It simply doesn't XD

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    • But we see all the upstairs when Regina and Henry are upstairs. We see both sides of the apartment on the main floor. 

      Lol I know but I cant help it!! 

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    • Fan expectations about where particular storylines were headed not being met don't contstitute continuity errors or storyline inconsistencies, and people really need to stop using that argument. All it does is make the people trying to use it as justification for what they see as problems with the series look silly, stubborn, and petty.

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    • DigificWriter wrote:
      Fan expectations about where particular storylines were headed not being met don't contstitute continuity errors or storyline inconsistencies, and people really need to stop using that argument. All it does is make the people trying to use it as justification for what they see as problems with the series look silly, stubborn, and petty.

      It's not about continuity errors. It's about poor writing. A story needs to 3 acts, not 2 acts and then being tired of the story\having something new and the hell with the previous story. It's not about expectations, it's about a build up coming to a halt.

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    • DigificWriter wrote: Fan expectations about where particular storylines were headed not being met don't contstitute continuity errors or storyline inconsistencies, and people really need to stop using that argument. All it does is make the people trying to use it as justification for what they see as problems with the series look silly, stubborn, and petty.

      We are not being stubborn or petty we are just talking about our opinion of how they have dropped story lines in favour of another (cough FROZEN cough) and how that may have left unanswered questions and or plot holes regarding the dropped storyline.

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    • Yes, I agree with the others. Not for "fan" expectaqtion, but you can get a feeling when a storyline is dropped. They may cover it up decently, but it's not opaque, it's pretty transparent at times.

      Dropped storylines are worth proclaiming about simply because instead of downplaying it or stretching it out, they give it an abrupt or quiet end.

      Frozen is a good example of thie. Frozen was a decent arc with a great villain, but you can see dropped storylines and things that had to be adjusted. Marian is prompty Frozen off and Regina and Robin bounce back and forth. Emma discovers her pwers in Season 2, manifests them properly in season 3a, then learn to use it and regain control of it in season 3b. So, why randomly Emma loses control of her powers. You can scream "PARALELL!" but Elsa lost control due to a constant state of fear, while Emma got a little angry and sparks flying. That is just tacky parallelism. Anger isn't even Emma's thing. Emma's things is not letting people in, maybe some self-righeousness, or rejection which she obviously knew that she was accepted like years ago.

      So, not only where plots messed up, but character development was halted, retread, and then proceeded. Hook had another secret to keep about a cursed body part, Regina is moping around about something on the verge of evil, Rumple is harking it up like a 1-D villain, Snow and the rest are highly irrelevant.

      There is LOST Potential and then there's a mess. And Frozen created a mess, which then indirectly messed up season 4b.

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    • Henry sleeps in the attic room with Emma. We can see his bed in the episode when Regina was upstairs, and in the scene with the Emma-Hook bed attack thing. Yes. he's sharing a room with his mom. A thirteen year old boy. That's a different issue. But he isn't sleeping on the floor.

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    • Why doesn't Henry alternate between staying with the Charmings and staying with Regina? Or does he?

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    • CTrent wrote:
      Why doesn't Henry alternate between staying with the Charmings and staying with Regina? Or does he?


      Supposedly he does so, offscreen of course. Though, I rather stay with Regina due to more room and stuff.

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    • Ok.... It seems Zelena is using magic again in 5x01

      But she was powerless after Regina took her pendant in 3x20

      Now that I think about it:

      Why did Regina use the handcuff when they brought Zelena back to Storybrook if she was powerless without the pendant in 3x20?

      The handcuff was unnecessary

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Ok.... It seems Zelena is using magic again in 5x01

      But she was powerless after Regina took her pendant in 3x20

      Now that I think about it:

      Why did Regina use the handcuff when they brought Zelena back to Storybrook if she was powerless without the pendant in 3x20?

      The handcuff was unnecessary

      When she died she merged with her magic (the green smoke) again. Clearly in her monologue she opened the time portal and killed and glamoured herself with magic. So, she claerly had magic.

      The handcuff was necessary. Once Zelena's body was destroyed by Rumple, the pendant released her magic and the events occured as explained.

      And no spoilers in this thread!

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      8Rob wrote:
      Ok.... It seems Zelena is using magic again in 5x01

      But she was powerless after Regina took her pendant in 3x20

      Now that I think about it:

      Why did Regina use the handcuff when they brought Zelena back to Storybrook if she was powerless without the pendant in 3x20?

      The handcuff was unnecessary

      When she died she merged with her magic (the green smoke) again. Clearly in her monologue she opened the time portal and killed and glamoured herself with magic. So, she claerly had magic.

      The handcuff was necessary. Once Zelena's body was destroyed by Rumple, the pendant released her magic and the events occured as explained.

      And no spoilers in this thread!

      Is it really a spoiler when it's in the actual promo for the premiere, though?

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    • In 5X02, Snow says her mother taught her how to dance when she was 8. This implies her mother was still alive. However, in The Stable Boy Leopold says his wife died a couple of years ago. Snow is 10 at this point and Eva died on her birthday. The only explanation I have is that Eva died on Snow's 9th birthday and Snow is almost 11 at the time of the Stable Boy. By a couple Leopold meant almost 2.

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    • Begfhn wrote:
      In 5X02, Snow says her mother taught her how to dance when she was 8. This implies her mother was still alive. However, in The Stable Boy Leopold says his wife died a couple of years ago. Snow is 10 at this point and Eva died on her birthday. The only explanation I have is that Eva died on Snow's 9th birthday and Snow is almost 11 at the time of the Stable Boy. By a couple Leopold meant almost 2.

      Memories can be hazy. Snow could've been 7 and misremembered it as 8.

      After all, she's like... 60 now?

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    • Small continuity issue but it annoys me

      Regina's hair length keeps changing in this scene:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQOQZ22-hxE

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Small continuity issue but it annoys me

      Regina's hair length keeps changing in this scene:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQOQZ22-hxE

      That isn't a continuity issue, but a goof. Lana was apparently sick and the back is just a stunt double person, with a sad season 1 Regina wig/ hair.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      8Rob wrote:
      Small continuity issue but it annoys me

      Regina's hair length keeps changing in this scene:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQOQZ22-hxE

      That isn't a continuity issue, but a goof. Lana was apparently sick and the back is just a stunt double person, with a sad season 1 Regina wig/ hair.

      I know but couldn't they afford a new wig?

      I mean.... it's like they didn't even try

      (I didn't know she was sick. I thought they didn't film together for schedule issues)

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      8Rob wrote:
      Small continuity issue but it annoys me

      Regina's hair length keeps changing in this scene:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQOQZ22-hxE

      That isn't a continuity issue, but a goof. Lana was apparently sick and the back is just a stunt double person, with a sad season 1 Regina wig/ hair.
      I know but couldn't they afford a new wig?

      I mean.... it's like they didn't even try

      (I didn't know she was sick. I thought they didn't film together for schedule issues)

      I don't know for sure, but I'm sure they didn't care and just assumed noone would notice, or it was edited last minute and overlooked.

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    • It seemed messy, sloppy and done only to dive into the Peter Pan arc because people were so fed up with Greg and Tamara. It makes it look like they scrapped whatever the Home Office arc was to give us Peter Pan because fans were disinterested. And that to me was stupid. Really stupid. Yeah, these two characters sucked, but don't throw away the plotline because people don't like it. Make it better so we WILL like it.


      Greg and Tamara were part of the Neverland arc, which began when Greg arrived in Storybrooke in mid Season 2; and ended when Regina tore the scroll with the curse and sent everyone (aside from Emma and Henry) back to the Enchanted Forest in mid Season 3. That was the entire arc.

      I had a problem with Horowitz and Kitsis' handling of the two characters. The show runners pretty much wasted them, as far as I'm concerned. And I especially hated how they killed off Tamara. It struck me as thoughtless and unnecessarily cruel. I never hated Greg and Tamara. I hated how they were handled.


      Why did Regina use the handcuff when they brought Zelena back to Storybrook if she was powerless without the pendant in 3x20?


      It could be either bad writing. Or . . . when Zelena's essence bonded with the pendant before the time portal opened, she got her powers back. Who knows? Don't forget . . . Zelena had powers before Glinda had given her that pendant.


      A lot of faith was put in Emma, she struggled with that, and then accepted it. To her, it's her job to help everyone.


      Then I feel sorry for her. As long as she allows the others to dictate what she has to do for the rest of her life, she'll never grow as an individual. Being "the Savior" should not have been her job description. This is something that was enforced upon her by Rumpelstiltskin's manipulation and the Storybrooke citizens' inability to see her as someone other than a glorified magical vigilante. There is no real law that she has to spend the rest of her life giving people "happy endings". She cannot always be the one who has to defeat some magical Big Bad. Emma is allowing everyone to squeeze her into some straight jacket labeled "Savior". Because of this belief that she always has to save someone, Emma ended up making one of the biggest mistakes in her life when she tried to change the timeline and save Marian's life. She thought that because she was "the Savior", she had the right to commit the dangerous act of changing the timeline in order to save someone who had died in the past. Yet, she also believed that Rumpelstiltskin did not have the right to change the timeline in order to prevent Neal's death. Not only were Emma's actions hypocritical, they also led to Zelena's resurgence in their lives (Rumpelstiltskin helped with his so-called act of murder). Sooner or later, Emma needs to break free of that title and straight jacket in order to dictate her own life. If she doesn't, she just might make another mistake on the same level as the one she made in the Season 3 finale. And she'll never be free to be herself.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Begfhn wrote:
      In 5X02, Snow says her mother taught her how to dance when she was 8. This implies her mother was still alive. However, in The Stable Boy Leopold says his wife died a couple of years ago. Snow is 10 at this point and Eva died on her birthday. The only explanation I have is that Eva died on Snow's 9th birthday and Snow is almost 11 at the time of the Stable Boy. By a couple Leopold meant almost 2.
      Memories can be hazy. Snow could've been 7 and misremembered it as 8.

      After all, she's like... 60 now?

      You do have a good point. We have to keep in mind that the characters are only human and can make mistakes. However, almost every character has the ability to recognize someone they met once 30 years ago, which is not normal. And you'd think Snow would remember the day her mother died, especially if it happended on her birthday. 

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    • I think the writers just make the border be whatever they need it to be.


      Please remember . . . Kitsis and Horowitz used to work as writers for "LOST".

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    • Begfhn wrote:

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Begfhn wrote:
      In 5X02, Snow says her mother taught her how to dance when she was 8. This implies her mother was still alive. However, in The Stable Boy Leopold says his wife died a couple of years ago. Snow is 10 at this point and Eva died on her birthday. The only explanation I have is that Eva died on Snow's 9th birthday and Snow is almost 11 at the time of the Stable Boy. By a couple Leopold meant almost 2.
      Memories can be hazy. Snow could've been 7 and misremembered it as 8.

      After all, she's like... 60 now?

      You do have a good point. We have to keep in mind that the characters are only human and can make mistakes. However, almost every character has the ability to recognize someone they met once 30 years ago, which is not normal. And you'd think Snow would remember the day her mother died, especially if it happended on her birthday. 

      I don't think it works that way. The way I see it, the 28 years of the curse didn't count as time passing at all. For them, only ONE day passed between the curse being cast and Emma arriving to Storybrooke.

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    • Killian Jones wrote:

      Begfhn wrote:

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Begfhn wrote:
      In 5X02, Snow says her mother taught her how to dance when she was 8. This implies her mother was still alive. However, in The Stable Boy Leopold says his wife died a couple of years ago. Snow is 10 at this point and Eva died on her birthday. The only explanation I have is that Eva died on Snow's 9th birthday and Snow is almost 11 at the time of the Stable Boy. By a couple Leopold meant almost 2.
      Memories can be hazy. Snow could've been 7 and misremembered it as 8.

      After all, she's like... 60 now?

      You do have a good point. We have to keep in mind that the characters are only human and can make mistakes. However, almost every character has the ability to recognize someone they met once 30 years ago, which is not normal. And you'd think Snow would remember the day her mother died, especially if it happended on her birthday. 
      I don't think it works that way. The way I see it, the 28 years of the curse didn't count as time passing at all. For them, only ONE day passed between the curse being cast and Emma arriving to Storybrooke.

      Meh, I'd argue that they remembered at least the few days Owen and Kurt were in town (albeit vaguely), then the ten years Henry was in town (since he was something not built into the Curse and waas new) and then actively remembered the few months between Emma's arrival in October and her breaking the Curse in February.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Killian Jones wrote:

      Begfhn wrote:


      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Begfhn wrote:
      In 5X02, Snow says her mother taught her how to dance when she was 8. This implies her mother was still alive. However, in The Stable Boy Leopold says his wife died a couple of years ago. Snow is 10 at this point and Eva died on her birthday. The only explanation I have is that Eva died on Snow's 9th birthday and Snow is almost 11 at the time of the Stable Boy. By a couple Leopold meant almost 2.
      Memories can be hazy. Snow could've been 7 and misremembered it as 8.

      After all, she's like... 60 now?

      You do have a good point. We have to keep in mind that the characters are only human and can make mistakes. However, almost every character has the ability to recognize someone they met once 30 years ago, which is not normal. And you'd think Snow would remember the day her mother died, especially if it happended on her birthday. 
      I don't think it works that way. The way I see it, the 28 years of the curse didn't count as time passing at all. For them, only ONE day passed between the curse being cast and Emma arriving to Storybrooke.
      Meh, I'd argue that they remembered at least the few days Owen and Kurt were in town (albeit vaguely), then the ten years Henry was in town (since he was something not built into the Curse and waas new) and then actively remembered the few months between Emma's arrival in October and her breaking the Curse in February.

      I think it's more like a hazy period of time (like they are not sure how long it was) that they remember, at least until Emma got to town. Basically, everyone was a Sim or an animal in Animal Crossing, and Regina was the player. She could change things, but it didn't really phase the AI, they still would act as programed.

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    • But after the curse, they still remember what happened during the curse. I guess not much happened for the first 18 years of the curse. Every day was exactly the same, as seen in Welcome to Storybrooke. Although, after Henry's arrival things started to change a little bit. For example, Mary Margaret knew Henry as a baby. How did she not realize ten years have passed?


      Also, after Snow Drifts/There's No Place Like Home there appeared to be no plot change. However, Snow met Hook when he was not in disguise. Wouldn't this have changed the plot of season two? And Belle walked in on Rumple and Hook/Emma talking and Emma even revealed that she knew her name.

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    • Begfhn wrote:
      But after the curse, they still remember what happened during the curse. I guess not much happened for the first 18 years of the curse. Every day was exactly the same, as seen in Welcome to Storybrooke. Although, after Henry's arrival things started to change a little bit. For example, Mary Margaret knew Henry as a baby. How did she not realize ten years have passed?


      Also, after Snow Drifts/There's No Place Like Home there appeared to be no plot change. However, Snow met Hook when he was not in disguise. Wouldn't this have changed the plot of season two? And Belle walked in on Rumple and Hook/Emma talking and Emma even revealed that she knew her name.

      Honestly, the only thing I consider canon from that episode is Emma rescuing Marian, Zelena killing her, and then the vault scene where Hook moves Elsa and Rumple and Emma have that heart-to-heart. So like... three scenes.

      Heck, even Ginny has said that "Snow Falls" is her favorite episode, so I doubt she'd consider "Snow Drifts" canon since it changes things so radically.

      But I guess you could explain it away as the fact that Snow only ever met him once, and in season 2 she never said she'd never heard of him.

      As for Belle... Did we ever even get a scene where she meets Emma on-screen? She could've shown some recognition but if we never saw it, then...

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    • Begfhn wrote:
      But after the curse, they still remember what happened during the curse. I guess not much happened for the first 18 years of the curse. Every day was exactly the same, as seen in Welcome to Storybrooke. Although, after Henry's arrival things started to change a little bit. For example, Mary Margaret knew Henry as a baby. How did she not realize ten years have passed?


      Also, after Snow Drifts/There's No Place Like Home there appeared to be no plot change. However, Snow met Hook when he was not in disguise. Wouldn't this have changed the plot of season two? And Belle walked in on Rumple and Hook/Emma talking and Emma even revealed that she knew her name.

      Just a plot hole. I like to imagine that that didn't happen.

      They didn't think it through because Belle and Snow would have changed and the story would be at least slightly different. Unless a wizard fixed it....

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Begfhn wrote:
      But after the curse, they still remember what happened during the curse. I guess not much happened for the first 18 years of the curse. Every day was exactly the same, as seen in Welcome to Storybrooke. Although, after Henry's arrival things started to change a little bit. For example, Mary Margaret knew Henry as a baby. How did she not realize ten years have passed?


      Also, after Snow Drifts/There's No Place Like Home there appeared to be no plot change. However, Snow met Hook when he was not in disguise. Wouldn't this have changed the plot of season two? And Belle walked in on Rumple and Hook/Emma talking and Emma even revealed that she knew her name.

      Just a plot hole. I like to imagine that that didn't happen.

      They didn't think it through because Belle and Snow would have changed and the story would be at least slightly different. Unless a wizard fixed it....

      They had a glamour spell on.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Just a plot hole. I like to imagine that that didn't happen.

      They didn't think it through because Belle and Snow would have changed and the story would be at least slightly different. Unless a wizard fixed it....

      No. Snow didn't see Hook's face. Just his hook.

      And she recognized the hook when she pulled the hook out of the sack in 2x04 (she gasped)

      About Belle:

      A wizard fixed.... A wizard called Rumple

      He probably gave Belle a forgetting potion after she met Emma and Hook (while they were at the ball), just like he did with himself later in the episode

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:

      Just a plot hole. I like to imagine that that didn't happen.

      They didn't think it through because Belle and Snow would have changed and the story would be at least slightly different. Unless a wizard fixed it....

      No. Snow didn't see Hook's face. Just his hook.

      And she recognized the hook when she pulled the hook out of the sack in 2x04 (she gasped)

      About Belle:

      A wizard fixed.... A wizard called Rumple

      He probably gave Belle a forgetting potion after she met Emma and Hook (while they were at the ball), just like he did with himself later in the episode

      OH MY GODS, that's right. Snow gasps when she sees the hook... I mean, I really highly doubt they had that planned that far in advance, but that fits so perfectly now.

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    • I don’t know if this had been brought up, there are a whole lotta posts here. I’m late to the Once Upon A Time fandom as I am only on season 2 but I am already confused about something...

      In Hat Trick, Regina has Jefferson take her to Wonderland as on last job. Jefferson is poor. In The Doctor, Jefferson works with Rumple to trick a pre-Evil Regina into believing that Daniel cannot return. Jefferson looks rich and well put together. Thoughts? Please help! :)

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    • the past events in "the doctor" take place sometime before those in "hat trick."

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      the past events in "the doctor" take place sometime before those in "hat trick."

      Does it get explained at some point how Jefferson goes from well-dressed portal jumper to mushroom harvester? I should be patient and just watch but this is really irking me for some reason ;)

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    • Kseibel05 wrote:
      Avatar Beta wrote:
      the past events in "the doctor" take place sometime before those in "hat trick."
      Does it get explained at some point how Jefferson goes from well-dressed portal jumper to mushroom harvester? I should be patient and just watch but this is really irking me for some reason ;)

      It isn't explained in the show, because Seb Stan (Jefferson's actor) got busy with the MCU and other projects. But it was explained in a canon comic. Basically, Jefferson is well-to-do because he is a portal jumper, and goes places to get things from various realms which he can sell, etc. One time, he goes to Wonderland for a magical watch and gets trapped in a time loop by the March Hare (which is a person that hunts the Wonderland rabbits, who are sentient and so basically people; watch the spin off Once Upon A Time in Wonderland for more about them). Jefferson's wife (and Grace's mother), Pricilla, comes to save Jefferson, but gets killed in the process. Because of this, Jefferson gives up portal jumping, thus losing his source of income. This is also why he is so reluctant to help Regina in "Hat Trick".

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
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