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  • Wow............ Just....... Wow...........ūüėß

    So Lily is Mal's daughter.....

    Snow is a bitch...

    Belle moves on supper fast..

    Killian had a taste of calamari once....

    And Em is on some kind of weird Grilled Cheese frenzy....

    I don't know about you all but..... GO TEAM TQOD'S!!!!

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    • DZAV21 wrote:
      Wow............ Just....... Wow...........ūüėß

      So Lily is Mal's daughter.....

      Snow is a bitch...

      Belle moves on supper fast..

      Killian had a taste of calamari once...

      And Em is on some kind of weird Grilled Cheese frenzy....

      I don't know about you all but..... GO TEAM TQOD'S!!!!

      How do we know that Lily is necessarily Maleficent's duahgter also I was a little upset to see Belle with Will, not really because of Rumbelle but because of Willatasia (Will and Annatasia) 

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    • Because its OUAT, she was like Em, and had a special birthmark...

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    • Where does Aurora fit in all of this? When Maleficent said that she was pregnant, I was like AURORA, but now that I think about it, it can't because Aurora is probably only a few years younger than Snow White.¬†

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    • Geez Belle.. Couldn't wait for the ink on your divorce papers to dry a little?? Its only been 6 weeks!!!

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    • Splash245 wrote:
      Where does Aurora fit in all of this? When Maleficent said that she was pregnant, I was like AURORA, but now that I think about it, it can't because Aurora is probably only a few years younger than Snow White. 

      Not to mention, Aurora was already asleep.

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    • A&E want a Rumbelle happy ending in 4B so I think Anastasia will appear near the end of the season and things will get complicated. And because the page Henry found obviously shows the Hat Doors, Anastasia has to be related somehow.

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    • WorldHopper22 wrote:¬†And because the page Henry found obviously shows the Hat Doors, Anastasia has to be related somehow.

      The page Henry found, was a picture of the Door that leads to the Author.... why would that have anything to do with Anastasia?

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    • Spoiler pics, spoiler title, General connection, and Once's love of "surprise relative".

      I like how Maleficent is more against Snow and Charming and not the clueless and helpless Aurora, which would have been easier.

      Interview says Killian and Ursula weren't a romantic issue, (lol, man and woman have a past doesn't mean romance).

      Snow was reasonable. Snow was/is a constant doormat at times to villains or people take advantage of her kindness. So, I can understand why Snow wouldn't agree with that. Now, I see Snow upset, so she may regret what she did since she's a mother now and had sentenced Maleficent to a fate she herself suffered.

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    • I can't blame anyone for hating Snow and Charming.... They think there better then everyone else and only think about how they look..

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    • Maleficent shaking that rattle is probably the most heart-breaking scene of the entire series. I suppose the fact that Snow worded it "Maleficent lost her baby" instead of they killed her baby means it's still alive, but somewhere Maleficent couldn't get it. That certainly does build evidence for Lily, which I would prefer to Aurora being Maleficent's baby. I just hope Stefan isn't the father, that's too close to the movie.

      Also, did anyone else yell "Will how could you do that to Ana?!" when he kissed Belle?

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    • Violindance7 wrote: Maleficent shaking that rattle is probably the most heart-breaking scene of the entire series. I suppose the fact that Snow worded it "Maleficent lost her baby" instead of they killed her baby means it's still alive, but somewhere Maleficent couldn't get it. That certainly does build evidence for Lily, which I would prefer to Aurora being Maleficent's baby. I just hope Stefan isn't the father, that's too close to the movie.

      Also, did anyone else yell "Will how could you do that to Ana?!" when he kissed Belle?

      I think they shouldn't have showed that Will and Ana supposedly had a happy ending in Wonderland because we know this can't work unless they retcon something.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Violindance7 wrote: Maleficent shaking that rattle is probably the most heart-breaking scene of the entire series. I suppose the fact that Snow worded it "Maleficent lost her baby" instead of they killed her baby means it's still alive, but somewhere Maleficent couldn't get it. That certainly does build evidence for Lily, which I would prefer to Aurora being Maleficent's baby. I just hope Stefan isn't the father, that's too close to the movie.

      Also, did anyone else yell "Will how could you do that to Ana?!" when he kissed Belle?

      I think they shouldn't have showed that Will and Ana supposedly had a happy ending in Wonderland because we know this can't work unless they retcon something.

      on the bright side they never specified WHEN ana and will rule wonderland. we know it's after alice marries cyrus and they have a daughter (because Alice tells her daughter the story) and we know time works different in different worlds (wonderland and neverland for example) so because we don't know the exact time will and ana go back, we can assume it's at the end of their time in Storybrooke.


      And OMG that scene, i am so rooting for Mal now.

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    • This has been the episode of the show since the season 3 finale.¬†

      -Good to see more Season 1 characters involved in the plot

      -Regina and Marco scene was wonderful 

      -Hook and Emma's relationship looks stronger than ever now

      -Maleficent with the rattle was creepy as heck. Loved it.

      -Ursula is still the weaker character here

      -Bell and Will already??? That was kinda fast

      Where were all this storylines in 4A??? I'm trying to remember if I felt as excited as I'm now with the show back in S4A... but there is not comparation. It's like 3B jumps directly to 4B, and season 4A was all filler.

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    • Eww onion rings with grilled cheese sandwich? Yuck! I love both those things but they don't belong together...

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    • 8Rob wrote: This has been the episode of the show since the season 3 finale.¬†

      -Good to see more Season 1 characters involved in the plot

      -Regina and Marco scene was wonderful 

      -Hook and Emma's relationship looks stronger than ever now

      -Maleficent with the rattle was creepy as heck. Loved it.

      -Ursula is still the weaker character here

      -Bell and Will already??? That was kinda fast

      Where were all this storylines in 4A??? I'm trying to remember if I felt as excited as I'm now with the show back in S4A... but there is not comparation. It's like 3B jumps directly to 4B, and season 4A was all filler.

      Just take Ingrid stuff, specifically the shattered sight episodes until the end and it's all you need. The first 6 were quite meh, except the sorcerer's hat otherwise we wouldn't know about it.

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    • This episode was really good. Poor Maleficent losing her child and the MBC are so rotten now all of them should be ashamed. I loved how it should Zombie Mal and Dragon before she turned to her humanoid form and Granny was downright rude to Cruella and Ursula in the beginning and the whole secret, keep my secret really makes me¬† miss the Take Back the Kingdom arc. I have a feeling Hook might of killed Ursula's father since he said worse than breaking her heart and yes I'm also going to say it Lily might be Maleficent's daughter I wonder if she was born from a dragon egg but still psyched that she's back.

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    • Mal is also a dragon, does that mean she gave birth or hatched an egg?? I'm confused...

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    • DZAV21 wrote:
      Mal is also a dragon, does that mean she gave birth or hatched an egg?? I'm confused...

      I guess, we will find out in a later episode.

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    • So it's confirmed that Ursula and Cruella aren't proficient at magic. I kinda guessed this already during their first appearance when it was required of Maleficent to teleport them all away. Still, Cruella's presence is awesome as usual and I really like the way TQOD interact with each other, like their comments after Mal threatened Snowing. ALSO, did Ursula's tentacles change color to match her outfit? Or am I just going blind??

      PS: Someone should make a thread with just Cruella's one liners.

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    • I am really dissapointed about RedKnave. Anastasia and Will really belong together, they are true loves. I find it VERY disrispectful to just put Will together with Belle for the sake of developing Rumbelle drama without even a mention to Anastasia. They were even asked about this in an interview and they didn't say a word about the Red Queen. Ugh. I hope I'm just wrong and they're saving some good explanation for later.

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    • Vinc3ntN wrote: So it's confirmed that Ursula and Cruella aren't proficient at magic. I kinda guessed this already during their first appearance when it was required of Maleficent to teleport them all away. Still, Cruella's presence is awesome as usual and I really like the way TQOD interact with each other, like their comments after Mal threatened Snowing. ALSO, did Ursula's tentacles change color to match her outfit? Or am I just going blind??

      PS: Someone should make a thread with just Cruella's one liners.

      Ursula's tentacles looked black and purple and also her typical green. It's likely some graphical glitch. Or it's because of her purple-pink-white fleshy part underneath and her green tentacles were darker. I almost thought they were purple and black, but I saw the green. I like too how they were mentioned to be tactless and not magic extraordinares after we had so many. I think they are starting to come off as typical henchmen, though they actually succeed.

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    • Oh we all know what lullaby Mal sang to her little hatching?... My mom sang me the Once Upon A Dream all the time when I was little. She loved Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty

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    • Lots of setup for future episodes in this episode. It should be interesting to see how it all plays out.

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    • Killian Jones wrote: I am really dissapointed about RedKnave. Anastasia and Will really belong together, they are true loves. I find it VERY disrispectful to just put Will together with Belle for the sake of developing Rumbelle drama without even a mention to Anastasia. They were even asked about this in an interview and they didn't say a word about the Red Queen. Ugh. I hope I'm just wrong and they're saving some good explanation for later.

      Well, I know they have Socha for reasons, but Belle could at least end with or be with someone she has actually interacted with. Belle and Archie, at least Pongo would be around. I would even take Belle and an invisible/ stunt double Ruby.

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    • Yeah. I hate what they've done with Will's character.

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    • ‚ÄĘ Oh OUAT, nice to see you remember you had an ass-kicking Season One, every now and then.

      ‚ÄĘ Maleficent, they made you more interesting with a few scenes in an episode than others did in a whole film about you. I already love her.

      ‚ÄĘ The rattle scene broke my heart. Poor woman, seriously. Although I have a few ideas where this is going to.

      ‚ÄĘ Now, THAT's the Regina I love. Up to good deeds, but conflicted and still coping with her past. Her whole self-sacrificing, I'm standing back, I'm too good to be true, let it gooo let it goooo arc during the Frozen half-season was starting to look a bit out of character. Her short Evil Queen relapses are amazing and pave the way for heartwarming scenes such as the one with Marco.

      ‚ÄĘ Will and Belle kissing. That's wrong on SO many levels, and all of them are called Anastasia.

      ‚ÄĘ Mary Margaret and David are running up for Mafia Boss of the Year or what? I love to see they have dark spots, and the contrast between how their black and white, "we're the heroes, they're the villains" mindset was genuine back in the day and has become a farce ever since. But they're still the worst for trying to hush the whole thing like that: gosh, even former outright villains such as Regina are willing to deal with the consequences of their mistakes rather than just cover them up. The whole "We don't want to let Emma down" speech sounds a lot more like a self-justification. They're doing what Regina and Emma did in Season One and Three respectively to Henry, and we've seen how that turned out each time. -.-

      ‚ÄĘ OUAT is definitely back to being OUAT. I enjoyed the Frozen arc, but it did more good to the movie than the show. Neither the OUAT characters nor the story could go forward because the writers needed to go back to point one with the Frozen characters, but at last we can go back to OUR story.

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    • I need the anwser about how they resurrected Maleficent so easy if in all the series they had said that is "impossible" to ressurect people?

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      Yeah. I hate what they've done with Will's character.

      They better have a really good explanation for what happened with Will and Ana.

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    • TQOD'S arch is the best yet!!

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    • DZAV21 wrote:
      Oh we all know what lullaby Mal sang to her little hatching?... My mom sang me the Once Upon A Dream all the time when I was little. She loved Maleficent from Sleeping Beauty

      I can already hear OUaT's Maleficent singing Lana Del Rey's version.... wow, that song just got even creepier.

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    • JMsapphireZ wrote: I need the anwser about how they resurrected Maleficent so easy if in all the series they had said that is "impossible" to ressurect people?

      She is immortal and wasn't dead. Apparently dead immortal/magic beings aren't apart of that rule.

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    • JMsapphireZ wrote:
      I need the anwser about how they resurrected Maleficent so easy if in all the series they had said that is "impossible" to ressurect people?


      They NEED to address that, but I think it has to do with the side-spell of the Curse, since we saw Maleficent's undead form before she came totally back. She was probably not dead-dead, but dormant within her ashes like she was in Season Two.

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    • It was a spell in the cave. Regina mentioned that is Season Two. It is enchanted so that Maleficent doesn't die, but turns into other forms.

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      I am really dissapointed about RedKnave. Anastasia and Will really belong together, they are true loves. I find it VERY disrispectful to just put Will together with Belle for the sake of developing Rumbelle drama without even a mention to Anastasia. They were even asked about this in an interview and they didn't say a word about the Red Queen. Ugh. I hope I'm just wrong and they're saving some good explanation for later.

      I think this is the period where Ana has abadoned Will and Will returned to the world without magic. I'm guessing these events occured before the events of Wonderland.

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    • Vinc3ntN wrote:

      Killian Jones wrote:
      I am really dissapointed about RedKnave. Anastasia and Will really belong together, they are true loves. I find it VERY disrispectful to just put Will together with Belle for the sake of developing Rumbelle drama without even a mention to Anastasia. They were even asked about this in an interview and they didn't say a word about the Red Queen. Ugh. I hope I'm just wrong and they're saving some good explanation for later.

      I think this is the period where Ana has abadoned Will and Will returned to the world without magic. I'm guessing these events occured before the events of Wonderland.

      No, it isn't Wonderland happened in season two. The Alice and Cyrus child scene was about 6-7 years from current Once.

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    • Btw love Cruella's dalmation phone cover...

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    • This ep ruled! I feel sorry for Rumple though and hope things work out. I also hope Will is there for more than just love triangle crap. What exactly is his appeal? I'm told he was the bright spot in an otherwise poor spin-off and everyone loved that he moved to the parent show but I don't see it. I'll admit to only seeing one Wonderland ep {the one with Cora} but the character didn't impress then ¬†and still doesn't.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      JMsapphireZ wrote: I need the anwser about how they resurrected Maleficent so easy if in all the series they had said that is "impossible" to ressurect people?

      She is immortal and wasn't dead. Apparently dead immortal/magic beings aren't apart of that rule.


      Actually Maleficent was alive the whole time. They mere converted her ashes to her human form. If you recall, in "The Evil Queen", Regina said there's a powerful magic in the cave that keeps Maleficent alive no matter what form she's in.

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    • Yalphi wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      JMsapphireZ wrote: I need the anwser about how they resurrected Maleficent so easy if in all the series they had said that is "impossible" to ressurect people?

      She is immortal and wasn't dead. Apparently dead immortal/magic beings aren't apart of that rule.


      Actually Maleficent was alive the whole time. They mere converted her ashes to her human form. If you recall, in "The Evil Queen", Regina said there's a powerful magic in the cave that keeps Maleficent alive no matter what form she's in.

      Yes, I know. Just that I think they said she was dead after that. We however don't know where she or her ashes went when they reversed the curse. I mean I guess her ashes and Sidney went down a plot hole.

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    • Wow, watching that scene between Maleficent and Snow. The last time we saw Snow be that much of a bitch, she was shaming Johanna for trying on her crown. Basically Snow's attitude towards Maleficent was "you're a villain so f*** your baby".

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    • She feels guilty though, there is that.

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    • Why do the Charming's always have to state the obvious?

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    • OK Why is Will kissing Belle?

      What's wrong with the producer? That's a character butchering.

      He is supposed to be in love with Anastasia.

      This is the first time I got upset at the producers

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    • I don't understand how Snow and Charming could get into Glinda's pocket dimension after seeing this episode.... It was supposed to be accesible only for pure hearted people

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      I don't understand how Snow and Charming could get into Glinda's pocket dimension after seeing this episode.... It was supposed to be accesible only for pure hearted people

      It's a retcon. The writers love to do that often...

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    • 8Rob wrote:
      I don't understand how Snow and Charming could get into Glinda's pocket dimension after seeing this episode.... It was supposed to be accesible only for pure hearted people

      Was she pregnant with Neal when they went to visit Glinda? (i can't remember, if the characer was also pregnant at that time or just Ginny). because the pregnancy is what prevented her this time.

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    • Ok I am confused I thought this was before the wonderland spin-off. I mean so far there hasn't been any sign of a giant hole in the cafe or the street from the white rabbit. So if this was before Will went back maybe he is trying to move on, though I have to agree with everyone else, Belle seems to be moving on really fast!

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    • wow, OUAT is on a roll with this arc. keep it up.

      • I HATED the Maleficent movie. just a couple of scenes with Mal talking about her baby made her more sympathetic and interesting than that movie ever could. that last scene with the rattle, oh goodness I think I might cry =*(
      • Lily is probably Maleficent's daughter and Stefan is maybe the father.
      • that scene when Regina went ballistic at Marco and Pinocchio came out of nowhere. like all of a sudden she yelled "you used to not shave and rode a motorcycle! think!". I just love when her past self resurfaces and she must apologise. that is character development.
      • if asked if I prefer Snow or Charming, I choose Charming all the way. I love GG, but Snow is a b***h. she was willing to find a way to stop the curse so her daughter can be the saviour (if that's what they're talking about) instead of working with Maleficent to help both of their babies. but she was like "no, I'm Snow White and I'm pure as snow and your a villain so screw you and your baby" in the most nicest voice she could manage.
      • Will and Belle. I'm not sure why did that unless they want a love triangle (or square if they include Ana). speaking of which, where is she?
      • QOD being awesome as always. except Ursula who always appears to be the weakest against sassy Cruella and tragic Maleficent.

      so overall, great episode, except for Snow (selfish b***h) and WillxBelle (what's their ship name? ScarletBeauty? Welle?)

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    • SnowKingTE wrote: wow, OUAT is on a roll with this arc. keep it up.

      • I HATED the Maleficent movie. just a couple of scenes with Mal talking about her baby made her more sympathetic and interesting than that movie ever could. that last scene with the rattle, oh goodness I think I might cry =*(
      • Lily is probably Maleficent's daughter and Stefan is maybe the father.
      • that scene when Regina went ballistic at Marco and Pinocchio came out of nowhere. like all of a sudden she yelled "you used to not shave and rode a motorcycle! think!". I just love when her past self resurfaces and she must apologise. that is character development.
      • if asked if I prefer Snow or Charming, I choose Charming all the way. I love GG, but Snow is a b***h. she was willing to find a way to stop the curse so her daughter can be the saviour (if that's what they're talking about) instead of working with Maleficent to help both of their babies. but she was like "no, I'm Snow White and I'm pure as snow and your a villain so screw you and your baby" in the most nicest voice she could manage.
      • Will and Belle. I'm not sure why did that unless they want a love triangle (or square if they include Ana). speaking of which, where is she?
      • QOD being awesome as always. except Ursula who always appears to be the weakest against sassy Cruella and tragic Maleficent.

      so overall, great episode, except for Snow (selfish b***h) and WillxBelle (what's their ship name? ScarletBeauty? Welle?)

      Even though its a really iffy romance ScarletBeauty is an awesome ship name.

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    • Am I the only one who thinks Em's lie detector is off?

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    • This fandom always makes really good ship names. Way better than just combining character names like hinny (though drapple is a gem).

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    • My thoughts:

      That scene where Cruella slices Snow and Charming's palms seemed so... Cruella

      LOL at Regina calling Ursula "fish sticks". I'm really enjoying their rivalry but so far, we haven't seen any magic use from Ursula besides waving her tentacles around.

      The way Ursula said Hook's name made her sound so hurt/defeated and the way Cruella just held onto her like a good pal... you can tell those two seem closer with each other than they do with Maleficent

      Did Maleficent's dragon form seem gaunter in this episode? Or just different in general?

      As Regina once said about Maleficent, "she's been through a lot". That rattle scene was so poignant. It makes sense why Maleficent seemed to be resigned as a villain when Regina took back the dark curse from her.

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    • DZAV21 wrote: Am I the only one who thinks Em's lie detector is off?

      oh yeah, I forgot she had that. when did she use that last?

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    • A&E adressed this once. Said Emma had to be looking for a lie to get it to work.

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    • I loved the episode but I have a few questions. first what's up with Ursula? when she was first mentioned she was made to sound like an extremely powerful sea goddess that struck fear or at least shock into Regina. why is she seemingly the weakest magic user ever on the shows secondly how did snow white get a happy ending? she has done pretty bad things in her life but see still got a happy ending and seemingly never gets the "karma" others get.

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    • Avatar Beta wrote: A&E adressed this once. Said Emma had to be looking for a lie to get it to work.

      Surly she'd be looking for a lie now. like if I was Emma and two villains that somehow ended up in the LWM wanted to come in and my parents were telling me that they can not be trusted, I would make sure to have my lie detector on at all times. even if my parents were wrong and the villains had a secret agenda.

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      This ep ruled! I feel sorry for Rumple though and hope things work out. I also hope Will is there for more than just love triangle crap. What exactly is his appeal? I'm told he was the bright spot in an otherwise poor spin-off and everyone loved that he moved to the parent show but I don't see it. I'll admit to only seeing one Wonderland ep {the one with Cora} but the character didn't impress then  and still doesn't.

      To understand the appeal of the character, you'd really have to watch Wonderland in its entirety, and see his whole character arc. All I can say for Will on the main show right now, is that him and his entire story is being completly underutilized.

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    • I just thought of something, everyone keeps saying Ursula seems weak, and we know based on interviews that what Hook did to her was not sexual, so what if Hook caused Ursula to lose her powers?

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    • This episode was really amazing, and really informative storyline wise especially for it being so soon in the arc.

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    • Kingfan22 wrote: I loved the episode but I have a few questions. first what's up with Ursula? when she was first mentioned she was made to sound like an extremely powerful sea goddess that struck fear or at least shock into Regina. why is she seemingly the weakest magic user ever on the shows secondly how did snow white get a happy ending? she has done pretty bad things in her life but see still got a happy ending and seemingly never gets the "karma" others get.

      They killed her father, Cora killed Eva and Johana (on her face), the curse separated her from Emma during 28 years and the villains are always after her family. She had suffered too and yet (most than other characters) she tries to do good. Sometimes I think people is just to hard on her and quick to judge. Despite everything she tries to do the correct thing. Just because she is a hero it doesnt mean she can't make mistakes or even wrong someone for once...I mean everyone quickly get on the villains side (despite all the horrible things they have done) yet when a hero does something wrong they are suddenly considered the worst people ever. I feel like this show always tries to justify the villains bad actions just because they suffered (like everyone else does).

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    • As for the episode in general, I think it was slow. I expected more.

      ‚ÄĘI liked that Maleficent has a child, that scene with the baby toy was beyond description, Im really enjoying her character. ‚ÄĘYes, lily could Mals daughter ‚ÄĘSeeing Regina go undercover is interesting and a risk at the same time. I hope she stays good. ‚ÄĘBell and Will? WTF? When did that happened? I don'k like the direction they are going with this. It seems to be like they are doing this to create some drama. I hope Ana appears and all this ends as soon as possible. Also can they tell us why the Knave is in SB already? He just keep making random cameo appareances that doesnt seem to add much to the plot. ‚ÄĘhook and Ursula, looking forward to see their story. ‚ÄĘI like the friendship between the QUeens of darkness. ‚ÄĘIf Maleficents daughter reappear we might have a chance to see Mal redeem...I hope they take that direction, but if doesnt she is still amazing. ‚ÄĘI also see the queens of darkness betrying rumple. When they where at the cave and Cruella lied about belle not metioning him, also that she said she had move on (while smiling with evil)...gives me the hint that they will use Rumple to get closer to the author as much as they can, then brake the alliance up.

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    • You got a pont D. Prince. Snow beats herself up more than Regina ever has and thinks she deserves it. She even asked Regina to kill her after Cora's death.

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    • Best Things:

      Actual movement forwards with Operation Mongoose.

      Cruella, Cruella, Cruella De Vil...

      Maleficent and Lily set up. Good job Adam and Eddie.

      Explanation on why Emma can be corrupted

      Worst Things:

      Mary Margaret's pajamas.

      The whole heroes blood thing.


      Here's a plothole:

      If Charming and Snow did something really bad that makes the fact that they are heroes questionable, how on Enchanted Forest did they get through Glinda's door?

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    • Just a thought; how did Ursula and her tentacle know which was the box to get? Like does her tentacles have eyes?? And when are we going to see more than 2 tentacles produced by Ursula?

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    • Snow did say Malificent didn't know the full story. maybe they didn't do something as horrible as we think.

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    • WinterWoodsGal wrote: Best Things:

      Actual movement forwards with Operation Mongoose.

      Cruella, Cruella, Cruella De Vil...

      Maleficent and Lily set up. Good job Adam and Eddie.

      Explanation on why Emma can be corrupted

      Worst Things:

      Mary Margaret's pajamas.

      The whole heroes blood thing.


      Here's a plothole:

      If Charming and Snow did something really bad that makes the fact that they are heroes questionable, how on Enchanted Forest did they get through Glinda's door?

      uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............ magic?

      on a serious note though, they may have made up for their not so good deeds between the time they were in Storybrooke.

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    • D.Prince wrote:

      Kingfan22 wrote: I loved the episode but I have a few questions. first what's up with Ursula? when she was first mentioned she was made to sound like an extremely powerful sea goddess that struck fear or at least shock into Regina. why is she seemingly the weakest magic user ever on the shows secondly how did snow white get a happy ending? she has done pretty bad things in her life but see still got a happy ending and seemingly never gets the "karma" others get.

      They killed her father, Cora killed Eva and Johana (on her face), the curse separated her from Emma during 28 years and the villains are always after her family. She had suffered too and yet (most than other characters) she tries to do good. Sometimes I think people is just to hard on her and quick to judge. Despite everything she tries to do the correct thing. Just because she is a hero it doesnt mean she can't make mistakes or even wrong someone for once...I mean everyone quickly get on the villains side (despite all the horrible things they have done) yet when a hero does something wrong they are suddenly considered the worst people ever. I feel like this show always tries to justify the villains bad actions just because they suffered (like everyone else does).

      I understand she went through some bad things like her parents death( I think her mom and nanny death was because of her moms actions) and losing emma(she found emma before she killed cora) but snow has cast a dark curse, killed, made a mother lose her child, tried to stop two people from getting redemption because they knew(she was right), and lied about it to protect her image. she only really got a spot of darkness on her heart and guilt for all the things she has done because she got her happy ending. hook seemingly got his happy ending even with all the bad things he did(the only thing he did for redemption was fall in love) but regina who has turned good has to go on a all out quest to get her happy ending? I don't get the villains don't get happy endings thing, it doesn't add up.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Avatar Beta wrote:
      This ep ruled! I feel sorry for Rumple though and hope things work out. I also hope Will is there for more than just love triangle crap. What exactly is his appeal? I'm told he was the bright spot in an otherwise poor spin-off and everyone loved that he moved to the parent show but I don't see it. I'll admit to only seeing one Wonderland ep {the one with Cora} but the character didn't impress then  and still doesn't.
      To understand the appeal of the character, you'd really have to watch Wonderland in its entirety, and see his whole character arc. All I can say for Will on the main show right now, is that him and his entire story is being completly underutilized.

      By the way, the spin-off wasn't poor. You should really watch it. It's filled with amazing characters and heartbreaking storylines. The show starts off pretty slow but it quickly picks up the pace.

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    • I believe that Ursula was maybe in love with Hook or something like that and in order to be with him she betrayed her father Poseidon and she was banished and Hook left her so she became a villain, rejected by everyone. Sorta like the little mermaid storyline but in this scenario hook didn't love her back and her father didn't help her like Triton did to Ariel. Just guessing

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    • I actually like Will and Belle. Rumple's reaction when he saw them was heartbreaking though.¬†

      It was lovely seeing Pinocchio and Geppetto again, looking forward to August's return. 

      So Snow and Charming's secret was that they didn't help the Queens stop the curse so Maleficent lost her child? I certainly hope there's more to that.

      The ending was...wow. The narration, Maleficent with the toy... heartbreaking. 

      Anyone has the ending narration? I want to see the exact words.

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      I am really dissapointed about RedKnave. Anastasia and Will really belong together, they are true loves. I find it VERY disrispectful to just put Will together with Belle for the sake of developing Rumbelle drama without even a mention to Anastasia. They were even asked about this in an interview and they didn't say a word about the Red Queen. Ugh. I hope I'm just wrong and they're saving some good explanation for later.

      Anastasia and Will were the best part about OUATIW and I don't like that Will seems to have moved on from her... Belle moving on is okay for me but we've seen Will with the book page and I thought it was his goal to be reunited with Ana, his true love? That bothers me. I hope Ana comes back soon.

      I LOVED the scene between Regina and Marco. It was so beautiful and I loved it so much.

      Not sure how I feel about Snow and Charming's secret (I feel like once again, it's just Snow who did something wrong but they talk about "what we did"...), I hope there's more to it.

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    • I'm not sure if Rumple just saw what he feared or Will and Belle really has hooked up. It will also explain the two cup of coffee to go at Granny's. But we have to find a good shipname, because Bill, Welle or Wille is awful.

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    • This episode makes me think that 4a was totally unnecassry and extremely filler-ish. One of the best the entire series.

      Maleficent's story breaks my heart. Especially the rattle scene. Pretty sure that her child would be Lily. And it could as well explains why her name is Lilith (connected to evil and Maleficent is the mistress of all evil).

      Cruella's one liners are absolutely amazing. She delivers everytime she speaks! 

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    • "You wanna protect him...

      So he doesn't lose faith in the person you've become...

      The person he always believed you could be.

      That's why Emma can never find out what I'm about to tell you.

      She's finally starting to open up her heart.

      And if she learns the truth, if we let her down, she'll lose faith in us, and it could send her tumbling down a dark path.

      Because when you betray the people you love...

      When you make them see the worst parts of you...

      What you've done changes everything.

      There's no going back.

      You've shattered the bonds you worked so hard to forge.

      And the stronger those bonds once were...

      The more difficult they are to put back together...

      If they can be repaired at all."

      Damn, a hardcore line to remember.


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    • Kingfan22 wrote:

      D.Prince wrote:

      Kingfan22 wrote: I loved the episode but I have a few questions. first what's up with Ursula? when she was first mentioned she was made to sound like an extremely powerful sea goddess that struck fear or at least shock into Regina. why is she seemingly the weakest magic user ever on the shows secondly how did snow white get a happy ending? she has done pretty bad things in her life but see still got a happy ending and seemingly never gets the "karma" others get.

      They killed her father, Cora killed Eva and Johana (on her face), the curse separated her from Emma during 28 years and the villains are always after her family. She had suffered too and yet (most than other characters) she tries to do good. Sometimes I think people is just to hard on her and quick to judge. Despite everything she tries to do the correct thing. Just because she is a hero it doesnt mean she can't make mistakes or even wrong someone for once...I mean everyone quickly get on the villains side (despite all the horrible things they have done) yet when a hero does something wrong they are suddenly considered the worst people ever. I feel like this show always tries to justify the villains bad actions just because they suffered (like everyone else does).

      I understand she went through some bad things like her parents death( I think her mom and nanny death was because of her moms actions) and losing emma(she found emma before she killed cora) but snow has cast a dark curse, killed, made a mother lose her child, tried to stop two people from getting redemption because they knew(she was right), and lied about it to protect her image. she only really got a spot of darkness on her heart and guilt for all the things she has done because she got her happy ending. hook seemingly got his happy ending even with all the bad things he did(the only thing he did for redemption was fall in love) but regina who has turned good has to go on a all out quest to get her happy ending? I don't get the villains don't get happy endings thing, it doesn't add up.


      Well, you also have to see the circumtances. Snow killed Cora because she feared she would keep killing her family. I mean if Cora succeded in killing rumple who the hell was going to stop her?? Unlike regina snow didnt killed for pure pleasure or for stupid reasons.

      She casted the dark curse to find Emma and stop Zelena, not to cause pain to anyone.

      And trying to stop Ursula and Cruella from getting into town? We all know those two werent coming with good intentions at all and after all the last arcs with villains going after why take the risk and let this two enter to town? They can make their happy ending elsewhere as long as they truly repent their ways. (Which is not the case) . And snow didnt lie in that part yet, what she said to emma and regina about not let in them in makes perfect sense.

      Making someone lose a child? We still have to see the complete story.

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    • I think we get know who the father of Mals child is in the next episode. My guess is she opened up to King Stefan and got burned.

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    • I think Stephan will be the father, which would make Aurora half sister with Maleficents daughter. It would be an interesting connection. Maybe thats why Maleficent wanted to hurt Aurora, cause Aurora was the product of king stephans betrail with the sleeping beauty that bested Maleficent. Thats my hipothesis xD although I think its more to it than why just said.

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    • Mesmermann wrote:
      "You wanna protect him...So he doesn't lose faith in the person you've become...

      The person he always believed you could be.

      That's why Emma can never find out what I'm about to tell you.

      She's finally starting to open up her heart.

      And if she learns the truth, if we let her down, she'll lose faith in us, and it could send her tumbling down a dark path.

      Because when you betray the people you love...

      When you make them see the worst parts of you...

      What you've done changes everything.

      There's no going back.

      You've shattered the bonds you worked so hard to forge.

      And the stronger those bonds once were...

      The more difficult they are to put back together...

      If they can be repaired at all."

      Damn, a hardcore line to remember.



      Thank you. Wow it truly is such a great quote. 

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    • I could be nice ¬†that it's not only Charming-Mills-Rumples family history that is complicated. I think Mal in the end will get her happy ending. I don't think they will kill her.

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    • You know Snow & Charming should really learn that the first thing about being a hero is..... NOT BRAG AND TELL EVERYONE THAT YOUR A HERO!!!!

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    • Especially when they have done so a distastefull thing, a really selfish thing.

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    • The Red-Orange-Fuschia-Queen wrote:
      This episode makes me think that 4a was totally unnecassry and extremely filler-ish. One of the best the entire series.

      Maleficent's story breaks my heart. Especially the rattle scene. Pretty sure that her child would be Lily. And it could as well explains why her name is Lilith (connected to evil and Maleficent is the mistress of all evil).

      Cruella's one liners are absolutely amazing. She delivers everytime she speaks! 

      Woah Woah Woah hold up! 

      Gotta disagree there. 4A was IMO a lovely arc. Ok it's probably not the most popular but please don't dismiss it out of hand. Ingrid was such an interesting villain with arguably the best exit so far. It also set up the story for Rumple's banishment, the hat, Regina's quest for happiness. Without it we wouldn't be at the point we are now. With the queens of darkness entering the show, bringing Maleficent back to life etc. 

      I also like how it bought Frozen in, gave it the OUAT spin and made it work. I for one miss Ingrid terribly. Anyway

      Thoughts on the "Unforgiven" episode? Brilliant. I loved seeing Maleficent. It makes perfect sense of why she hates Snow. I can see where Snow was coming from. Not wanting to work with Maleficent. Was she right to follow through with that belief? Not for me to say. 

      WIll and Belle? No. Just no. Anastasia better be coming at some point. 

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    • Not to mention how heroes always help whoever needs or ask for it. Well Mal was asking for help not for herself but her BABY!

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    • So there is a chance Emma could go evil, that's hard to believe because she is the product of true love, so if she were to become evil wouldn't her powers disappear or something¬†

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    • Well if Em can be the darkest of the dark then Lily must can be the lightest of the light...

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    • I feel like Ingrid has been a better mother figure for Emma than Snow has.

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    • Anubis16 wrote: So there is a chance Emma could go evil, that's hard to believe because she is the product of true love, so if she were to become evil wouldn't her powers disappear or something¬†

      Being the product of true love has given her an enormous set of powers (albeit ones she's still trying to figure out), but ultimately it comes down to choice. I don't think her magic would leave her just because she went bad.

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    • Eruciform wrote: I feel like Ingrid has been a better mother figure for Emma than Snow has.

      Yeah she was, up until the point that she almost got Emma killed because she couldn't get it through her head that they were in a land without magic.

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    • Who else thinks that Maleficent is going to curse baby Neal?¬†

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    • Splash245 wrote: Who else thinks that Maleficent is going to curse baby Neal?¬†

      I think they're gonna try and tempt Emma into becoming dark. Especially since that's what Snow was trying to avoid the most.

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    • ‚óĺAn excerpt from the fairy tale of "The Golden Bird" is visible when Henry flips through the storybook.

      Here is a variant on the story:

      "In The Golden Blackbird, the king's son set out because the doctors have prescribed the golden blackbird for their ill father. The two older brothers are allured into the inn without any warning, and the youngest meets the talking hare that aids him only after he passes it by. The horse is featured only as a purchase, and he did not have to perform two tasks to win the Porcelain Maiden, the princess figure. Also, the hare is not transformed at the end of the tale."


      Talking hare - The white rabbit

      Porcelain Maiden - Zelena...?

      Prince - Will Scarlet...?


      Seems like a big foreshadowing hint - thoughts?

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    • To those whose complaining about Will & Belle this is set before the ending of OUATIW.

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      I am really dissapointed about RedKnave. Anastasia and Will really belong together, they are true loves. I find it VERY disrispectful to just put Will together with Belle for the sake of developing Rumbelle drama without even a mention to Anastasia. They were even asked about this in an interview and they didn't say a word about the Red Queen. Ugh. I hope I'm just wrong and they're saving some good explanation for later.

      i am pretty sure that the adventure in wonderland is after this season because Will look for Ana at the library. (Book)

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    • I'm not so sure about that timeline. ¬†I have not seen all of Wonderland, but I did see the first episode. and from what I recall, the White Rabbit appeared in Storybrooke to get Will (the Knave) at the same time as the beginning of the Second season. ¬†The same mangled set that was used when the Wraith came for Regina is used for that opening sequence.

      It's quite possible that WOnderland happened concurent to season 2.  Then when Regina reversed the curse, everyone that was brought over was returned to their original locales. (though that does not explain Hook, Tink, or Neal, but that is a different topic) This caused Will to return to the EF, and then he was brought back to SB with Snow's curse.  And without any of the usual contrivences, the Knave is unable to return to Wonderland.

      How this might relate to Will and Belle is that maybe Will tells Belle about his situation, and she agrees to help him find some way back to Wonderland. And it is not unheard of for 2 broken hearts to feel an attraction for each other.  Particularly if they are sharing their experiences with each other. (just a theory)

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      I'm not so sure about that timeline.  I have not seen all of Wonderland, but I did see the first episode. and from what I recall, the White Rabbit appeared in Storybrooke to get Will (the Knave) at the same time as the beginning of the Second season.  The same mangled set that was used when the Wraith came for Regina is used for that opening sequence.

      It's quite possible that WOnderland happened concurent to season 2.  Then when Regina reversed the curse, everyone that was brought over was returned to their original locales. (though that does not explain Hook, Tink, or Neal, but that is a different topic) This caused Will to return to the EF, and then he was brought back to SB with Snow's curse.  And without any of the usual contrivences, the Knave is unable to return to Wonderland.

      How this might relate to Will and Belle is that maybe Will tells Belle about his situation, and she agrees to help him find some way back to Wonderland. And it is not unheard of for 2 broken hearts to feel an attraction for each other.  Particularly if they are sharing their experiences with each other. (just a theory)

      Do you think Rumple is going to try and kill Will now, also there is still a problem for him, Belle still has the dagger and if she finds out Rumple is in Storybrooke she could order him to leave again or stop his plans with the Queens of Darkness 

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote: I'm not so sure about that timeline. ¬†I have not seen all of Wonderland, but I did see the first episode. and from what I recall, the White Rabbit appeared in Storybrooke to get Will (the Knave) at the same time as the beginning of the Second season. ¬†The same mangled set that was used when the Wraith came for Regina is used for that opening sequence.

      It's quite possible that WOnderland happened concurent to season 2.  Then when Regina reversed the curse, everyone that was brought over was returned to their original locales. (though that does not explain Hook, Tink, or Neal, but that is a different topic) This caused Will to return to the EF, and then he was brought back to SB with Snow's curse.  And without any of the usual contrivences, the Knave is unable to return to Wonderland.

      How this might relate to Will and Belle is that maybe Will tells Belle about his situation, and she agrees to help him find some way back to Wonderland. And it is not unheard of for 2 broken hearts to feel an attraction for each other.  Particularly if they are sharing their experiences with each other. (just a theory)

      I think Wonderland took place during season 2. Will begrudgingly went with the White Rabbit when he left for Wonderland. He wanted nothing to do with Ana. All of his actions during Wonderland were of a man without a heart in his chest. However, his actions during this season, well you could clearly see that his heart was back in his chest, he missed Ana, which is why he kept the Red Queen picture in his pocket. Also, the Shattered Sight curse affected him, meaning he definitely had his heart back in his chest.

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    • Anubis16 wrote:

      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      I'm not so sure about that timeline.  I have not seen all of Wonderland, but I did see the first episode. and from what I recall, the White Rabbit appeared in Storybrooke to get Will (the Knave) at the same time as the beginning of the Second season.  The same mangled set that was used when the Wraith came for Regina is used for that opening sequence.

      It's quite possible that WOnderland happened concurent to season 2.  Then when Regina reversed the curse, everyone that was brought over was returned to their original locales. (though that does not explain Hook, Tink, or Neal, but that is a different topic) This caused Will to return to the EF, and then he was brought back to SB with Snow's curse.  And without any of the usual contrivences, the Knave is unable to return to Wonderland.

      How this might relate to Will and Belle is that maybe Will tells Belle about his situation, and she agrees to help him find some way back to Wonderland. And it is not unheard of for 2 broken hearts to feel an attraction for each other.  Particularly if they are sharing their experiences with each other. (just a theory)

      Do you think Rumple is going to try and kill Will now, also there is still a problem for him, Belle still has the dagger and if she finds out Rumple is in Storybrooke she could order him to leave again or stop his plans with the Queens of Darkness 

      Well the writers said that his heartbreak will turn into unfiltered rage.

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    • I think all Wonderland happend concurent to season 2 and possible season 3. Probably Will traveled to EF for something and was unlucky to be within Snows Curse range.

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    • did anyone else think that at the end when rumple was creepily watching belle and it went to belle, that belle was going to accidentally see him back? Will was a huge curve ball..

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    • Regina's prophercy is coming true. It seems MM is darkening her heart all by herself.¬†

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    • Theauthorforsure wrote:
      did anyone else think that at the end when rumple was creepily watching belle and it went to belle, that belle was going to accidentally see him back? Will was a huge curve ball..


      I guess they don't want to be predictable. So they find a way to make it work between a thief and a chambermaid.

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    • I guess Belle doesnt like good, honest men. First the dark one and now a thief. Lol

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    • D.Prince wrote: I guess Belle doesnt like good, honest men. First the dark one and now a thief. Lol

      Well all of the good honest men are taken in some way.

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    • I think episode 16 May fill in the rest of what both Snow AND Charming did to Maleficent. Because for right now, Snow is using the word "we" again when right now it is only her doing the wrong thing. Case in point, when she said "We failed as parents." In the episode The Snow Queen, that was her doing, not Charming's doing.

      I also now very much believe Lily is Maleficent's daughter. Otherwise, why would she return later on. Unless Lily bears importance for something else, it is biggest explanation that makes sense. I do wonder who the father is though. I will admit, I was surprised Regina had yelled at Pinnochio, but then again... She really lost her patience and that hasn't happened in awhile. Unlike her sister, who kept losing it every chance she got.

      I really want to see the Dark version of Emma. I mean that would make the character very interesting. When Maleficent said Snow and Charming's child could be the most pure hero or the darkest of all villains, I thought of Zelena. Who ended up choosing to be a villain.

      I also know Regina has very much changed, otherwise she never have would have apologized to Marco afterwards.

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    • WorldHopper22 wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Avatar Beta wrote:
      This ep ruled! I feel sorry for Rumple though and hope things work out. I also hope Will is there for more than just love triangle crap. What exactly is his appeal? I'm told he was the bright spot in an otherwise poor spin-off and everyone loved that he moved to the parent show but I don't see it. I'll admit to only seeing one Wonderland ep {the one with Cora} but the character didn't impress then  and still doesn't.
      To understand the appeal of the character, you'd really have to watch Wonderland in its entirety, and see his whole character arc. All I can say for Will on the main show right now, is that him and his entire story is being completly underutilized.
      By the way, the spin-off wasn't poor. You should really watch it. It's filled with amazing characters and heartbreaking storylines. The show starts off pretty slow but it quickly picks up the pace.

      Good point, I should have clarified that.

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    • Am I the only one amused at the fact that the collective OUAT fandom response to the ScarletBeauty kiss seems to be "Leave ScarletQueen alone; btw, zero f***s given about Rumbelle"? XD Rumple, you got what you deserved!¬†:D

      Anyways, even as an Evil Regal I think people are being too harsh on Snow White, especially compared to the level of sympathy the villains get. But let's face it: "I do horrible things because I've been hurt and left broken" is a much more relatable self-justification than "I do horrible things because I profess to be an unyielding hero and therefore I know best". And as I said, her attempt at covering everything up instead of facing whatever wrong she did is plain tasteless.

      Side note: I loved Season 4A, but I relate to those who feel it was filler compared to what we're getting now. The arc itself was very nice and charming, but it was so self-focussed it didn't move any main plot point forward. What brought us here and gave the characters a chance at developing was the Hat subplot, which was marginal and barely (if not forcedly) related to the main Frozen plot, and could have been condensed into a couple of episodes without any of the Snow Queen drama. What we got was basically OUAT put on hold while the writers (admittedly) developed a very beautiful Frozen fanfiction. I loved and already miss the Frozen characters, but I'm quite glad we're back to OUAT full time at last.

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    • I suspect that since OUATiWL did not do so well, Disney/ABC may be reluctant to fund another spinoff. So instead of OUATfrozen, we get season 4A which was good, but felt like a lot of filler for what should of been 2-3 episodes to advance the main ensemble stories.

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    • My thoughts on this episode:

      I prefer Maleficent over Snow White.

      Snow's attitude and not so great decisions have been annoying for awhile, and now we find that Maleficent lost her child because of Snow. Now, I have no doubt that Maleficent's kid isn't dead, since OUAT probably won't go there, but still, taking away someone's kid is a major thing, and the writers have said we've only begun to see what's been done to Maleficent by the Charmings, so we're not done yet.

      And, whatever happened to Emma's superpower, Snow and David lied outright, weren't any good either, and she just bought it.

      Thirdly, whatever happened to Snow and David learning about the curse from Rumplestiltskin? They didn't know anything about when they went to him, but now the Queens of Darkness are the ones who told him.

      And finally, a theory. We saw that Snow's heart isn't pure when Regina ripped it out in season 2. Now, the implication was that manipulating Regina into killing Cora was what caused it, but no one had ever seen Snow's heart before. Regina's heart is covered in black, but there's a pure glow beneath. I saw a theory that said that it meant that underneath all the bad, there's a good person. Snow's heart was dark at the center, so

      what if that means she's bad at the core, but covers it with good deeds?


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    • Samcarter34 wrote:

      Thirdly, whatever happened to Snow and David learning about the curse from Rumplestiltskin? They didn't know anything about when they went to him, but now the Queens of Darkness are the ones who told him.

      That bugged me too, but a) the QoD weren't very specific about the effects of the Curse, and while they said there could be a way to stop it, that wasn't dug much so perhaps they turned to imprisoned (and presumably safer) Rumple for help after burning the QoD option off. b) it's not like they could report to all their friends at the war council that they kind of knew what was going on because they were secretly in league with three villains and they screwed them over for no particular reason like villains always do: perhaps there was something of a political stunt in their move as well.

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    • Maybe they needed more better answers.

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    • Side note: I loved Season 4A, but I relate to those who feel it was filler compared to what we're getting now. The arc itself was very nice and charming, but it was so self-focussed it didn't move any main plot point forward. What brought us here and gave the characters a chance at developing was the Hat subplot, which was marginal and barely (if not forcedly) related to the main Frozen plot, and could have been condensed into a couple of episodes without any of the Snow Queen drama. What we got was basically OUAT put on hold while the writers (admittedly) developed a very beautiful Frozen fanfiction. I loved and already miss the Frozen characters, but I'm quite glad we're back to OUAT full time at last.

      Not related to the "Unforgiven" episode.

      Probably in the minority here but after the "OMG Pan", arc and then the "OMG Wicked is gonna kill us" The Frozen arc was a really nice, way to slow things down and get a breather.  I also liked how the hat and Regina's quest were just quietly working in the background.

      Now we're picking up the pace again with the Queens of Darkness. I'm sure it'll match or go beyond the sort of hyper tension of the past Pan/Wicked arcs. 

      Back to "Unforgiven". I feel a lot of sympathy for Maleficent. However she was evil. Sorry is currently evil. She cast curses/killed and practises dark magic. Are we really going to sympathise with her to the extent that Snow is the villain? Snow made a bad call. Or a few depending on how far back you want to go. That doesn't make her this evil being that everyone is making her out to be. She tried to do the right thing. I'm not saying she was without blame. But can we all please remember that Maleficent is "supposed" to be the Mistress of all evil? Since when did she automatically get entilted to a "Happy ending" when so far, all we have seen of her is killing and dark dark dark. 

      Just something to think about.

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    • I already left my review on SpoilerTV to say how awful I thought this episode was, so I'll just summarize the many problems I had with it here:

      • Maleficent tells Snow: "Hurt you? No. That would be too easy. (...) The only thing I care about is your pain." Ok, great contradiction you got going there.
      • Maleficent also tells Snow, in the flashbacks, that because Emma is the product of true love, she could grow up to be good or evil. So could anyone, genius. Lol the writing in this episode was atrocious.
      • Mary Margaret's last voice-over lasted for like half an hour. What the heck was that all about?
      • All of the potentially good surprises in the episode, like Book Thief (or Scarlet Beauty, whatever) or Maleficent having lost a child were kinda spoiled. Not the show's fault, our own fault, but shame.
      • Speaking of Scarlet Beauty... lol. Just lol.
      • The Charmings spent the ENTIRE episode telling the audience they had a secret. I couldn't take it anymore. Stop saying what we already know, god damn it. Again with the lowsy writing.
      • Regina snapping at a kid was an annoying setback for her. She slips up every now and then but this was just not entertaining at all. Her apology to Marco was also forced and rude.
      • Love Cruella, but I have a hard time making out what she says cos of her accent.¬†:/ Again, not an actual flaw, just a shame. Her lines are quite good and yet I always have to play them back or ask someone what she said.
      • The flashback story was mostly boring and unnecessary. I did enjoy the last flashback though.
      • The resurrection was pretty half-assed. Too easy.
      • They keep treating Granny like a damn extra. Give the woman her own sassy lines!

      Good things:

      • The inclusion of more season 1 characters, namely Geppetto and Pinocchio, and the passing reference to Ashley.
      • Other stuff, I guess. I don't remember anything else good.
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    • I think season 4 is theme to family because season 4A involved Ingrid looking for her sisters while trying to make Elsa & Emma her new sisters. 4B reveals that Maleficent had a child so theres a chance she might be searching for her child.

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    • Some nice thoughts in this video:¬†https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XE37n9ZRW4&spfreload=10

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    • I was shocked how stupid the Charming couple were. First, lying to the people you love. Second, it was way too easy to find the purple thingy, so if you think they will bring Maleficent back, they won't go over on the other side the from the cops and steal something, and then leave it in the car. Third, don't celebrate before you actually have won.

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    • That conversation that Snow had with Maleficent, resembled so closely the conversation that Blue had with Tinkerbell about Regina. Maleficent might have been evil but her baby did not deserve Snow White's self righteous condemnation.

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    • I just just hope the Charming's don't tell Killian then tell him to keep it from Em, or he over hears them talking and deices not to tell her.

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    • GothicNarcissus wrote:
      Am I the only one amused at the fact that the collective OUAT fandom response to the ScarletBeauty kiss seems to be "Leave ScarletQueen alone; btw, zero f***s given about Rumbelle"? XD Rumple, you got what you deserved! :D


      My thoughts exaclty xD 

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    • Child of the Moon7 wrote:

      GothicNarcissus wrote:
      Am I the only one amused at the fact that the collective OUAT fandom response to the ScarletBeauty kiss seems to be "Leave ScarletQueen alone; btw, zero f***s given about Rumbelle"? XD Rumple, you got what you deserved! :D


      My thoughts exaclty xD 

      I don't blame them. I am almost agreeing with those that Will shouldn't be apart of the show. He's obviously used for tedious melodrama or comic relief. Noone actually believes this pairing. They never even met. I guess they did it where everything happens: Offscreen!

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    • I want to see why Will isn't with his Anastasia. And I change my opinions of Maleficent's past: I always thoke who Aurora or Stefan were the Maleficent's worst enemies (When Ursula said about the blood of the people who have done more harm or something, I thoke: And Aurora's blood?) and Maleficent was only the Wicked Fairy of the fairytale Sleeping Beauty but now I understand that Maleficent is more. I'm so curious to see the next!

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    • Simmino44 wrote:
      I want to see why Will isn't with his Anastasia. And I change my opinions of Maleficent's past: I always thoke who Aurora or Stefan were the Maleficent's worst enemies (When Ursula said about the blood of the people who have done more harm or something, I thoke: And Aurora's blood?) and Maleficent was only the Wicked Fairy of the fairytale Sleeping Beauty but now I understand that Maleficent is more. I'm so curious to see the next!


      They needed the blood of the person/persons who BETRAYED her(i think the words they used were "the blood of those who betrayed her most"


      Also i am not sure it has been brought up here before but they just "revitalized" Mal they did not bring her back to life as she was still alive(in the form of a pile of ash), the blood gave her a "human form" again.

      Anyone else think the Charmmings took all the "light/goodness" from Mals baby and gave it to Emma and took all of Emmas "dark/evilness" and gave it to Mals baby? and then through some unknown way they caused Mals baby to be taken from her and sent to a place where her(the baby) dark magic would be useless(I.E. a land without magic)

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    • Even though I'm really liking this Snow, Charming, and Maleficent storyline, I wish that Aurora would be involved more. I know she will appear in two episodes, but in what capacity?¬†

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Child of the Moon7 wrote:

      GothicNarcissus wrote:
      Am I the only one amused at the fact that the collective OUAT fandom response to the ScarletBeauty kiss seems to be "Leave ScarletQueen alone; btw, zero f***s given about Rumbelle"? XD Rumple, you got what you deserved! :D
      My thoughts exaclty xD 
      I don't blame them. I am almost agreeing with those that Will shouldn't be apart of the show. He's obviously used for tedious melodrama or comic relief. Noone actually believes this pairing. They never even met. I guess they did it where everything happens: Offscreen!


      The problem with Will on the main show is that his arc in Wonderland was very beautiful, his closure perfect, and they had to disrupt that part to bring him to do, essentially, nothing at all. Until they give him some relevance to the story, the game is not worth the candle.

      Side note, rampant speculation: maybe the kiss was only in Rumple's mind? Projection of fear, hallucination, random thought? 'Cause Belle seemed alone at first. Then Will popped up. Then she seemed alone again. Will could have been behind the wall and not visible from the window, but in the very last bit Belle seems to have her hand on the trinket, then cut to it dangling as if she had just finished hanging it. Could Rumple just have imagined it?

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    • Jackbenimble wrote:
      Simmino44 wrote:
      I want to see why Will isn't with his Anastasia. And I change my opinions of Maleficent's past: I always thoke who Aurora or Stefan were the Maleficent's worst enemies (When Ursula said about the blood of the people who have done more harm or something, I thoke: And Aurora's blood?) and Maleficent was only the Wicked Fairy of the fairytale Sleeping Beauty but now I understand that Maleficent is more. I'm so curious to see the next!

      They needed the blood of the person/persons who BETRAYED her(i think the words they used were "the blood of those who betrayed her most"


      Also i am not sure it has been brought up here before but they just "revitalized" Mal they did not bring her back to life as she was still alive(in the form of a pile of ash), the blood gave her a "human form" again.

      Anyone else think the Charmmings took all the "light/goodness" from Mals baby and gave it to Emma and took all of Emmas "dark/evilness" and gave it to Mals baby? and then through some unknown way they caused Mals baby to be taken from her and sent to a place where her(the baby) dark magic would be useless(I.E. a land without magic)

      But why would the product of true love be evil to start out with and the daughter of Maleficent good to start out with 

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    • Anubis16 wrote:
      Jackbenimble wrote:
      Simmino44 wrote:
      I want to see why Will isn't with his Anastasia. And I change my opinions of Maleficent's past: I always thoke who Aurora or Stefan were the Maleficent's worst enemies (When Ursula said about the blood of the people who have done more harm or something, I thoke: And Aurora's blood?) and Maleficent was only the Wicked Fairy of the fairytale Sleeping Beauty but now I understand that Maleficent is more. I'm so curious to see the next!

      They needed the blood of the person/persons who BETRAYED her(i think the words they used were "the blood of those who betrayed her most"


      Also i am not sure it has been brought up here before but they just "revitalized" Mal they did not bring her back to life as she was still alive(in the form of a pile of ash), the blood gave her a "human form" again.

      Anyone else think the Charmmings took all the "light/goodness" from Mals baby and gave it to Emma and took all of Emmas "dark/evilness" and gave it to Mals baby? and then through some unknown way they caused Mals baby to be taken from her and sent to a place where her(the baby) dark magic would be useless(I.E. a land without magic)

      But why would the product of true love be evil to start out with and the daughter of Maleficent good to start out with 


      I think in that scenario, they would be 50-50 and the Charmings would simply switch Emma's 50% evil potential with Lily's 50% good potential.

      I don't think this is the case, though, as the Chernabog went after Emma, so her potential for evil is till there.

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    • I'm still having a hard time digesting Maleficent's explanation of why Emma has a chance to go dark. I mean, everyone has a chance of becoming a villain, as they are not born, but made.¬†

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    • Oh maybe baby Neal will grow up to become the next dark one....

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    • It's too obvious if Lily is the child in question.

      Bill. Welle. Noooo.

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    • The Red-Orange-Fuschia-Queen wrote: I'm still having a hard time digesting Maleficent's explanation of why Emma has a chance to go dark. I mean, everyone has a chance of becoming a villain, as they are not born, but made.¬†

      But Emma is the product of true love, apparently that amplifies everything, she has a super potential to do good, and naturally that same amount of potential can also be used to do evil things.

      Anyway, the revelation adds a lot more to Maleficent, I already loved her though, the other 2... uhm, I'm getting the impression they're just sidekicks to serve the purpose of having some classic villany. I'm not sure I should care too much about them, okay Cruella is funny, Ursula... eh. But they are getting their own episode, we will still explore them.

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    • Chameleon-Guy wrote:

      ...

      But Emma is the product of true love, apparently that amplifies everything, she has a super potential to do good, and naturally that same amount of potential can also be used to do evil things.

      ...

      I agree.  Being the product of True Love, I suppose, does not change the fact that the pendulum swings both ways. It just changes how HIGH the pendulum can swing.  And keeping Angular Momentum in mind, it also changes the speed and force of the change from one side to the other.

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    • Everybody is talking about Mal's daughter but the real question is Who is the father?

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    • Imagine after
      Imagine after removed this reply because:
      I was wrong
      18:25, March 10, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Maybe Stefan or... CHARMING! XD

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    • If Emma could be the darker person, the villian of villians, Neal could be the same because both are product of true love .... right?

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    • Chameleon-Guy wrote:

      The Red-Orange-Fuschia-Queen wrote: I'm still having a hard time digesting Maleficent's explanation of why Emma has a chance to go dark. I mean, everyone has a chance of becoming a villain, as they are not born, but made. 

      But Emma is the product of true love, apparently that amplifies everything, she has a super potential to do good, and naturally that same amount of potential can also be used to do evil things.

      Anyway, the revelation adds a lot more to Maleficent, I already loved her though, the other 2... uhm, I'm getting the impression they're just sidekicks to serve the purpose of having some classic villany. I'm not sure I should care too much about them, okay Cruella is funny, Ursula... eh. But they are getting their own episode, we will still explore them.

      Cruella always seems so close to a psychotic break, I think she could finally snap one episode and become the worst of the three.

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    • MyPretties wrote:

      Chameleon-Guy wrote:

      The Red-Orange-Fuschia-Queen wrote: I'm still having a hard time digesting Maleficent's explanation of why Emma has a chance to go dark. I mean, everyone has a chance of becoming a villain, as they are not born, but made. 

      But Emma is the product of true love, apparently that amplifies everything, she has a super potential to do good, and naturally that same amount of potential can also be used to do evil things.

      Anyway, the revelation adds a lot more to Maleficent, I already loved her though, the other 2... uhm, I'm getting the impression they're just sidekicks to serve the purpose of having some classic villany. I'm not sure I should care too much about them, okay Cruella is funny, Ursula... eh. But they are getting their own episode, we will still explore them.

      Cruella always seems so close to a psychotic break, I think she could finally snap one episode and become the worst of the three.

      Authors said Maleficent is the worst of three. 


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    • And the Chernabog attacked her for first

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    • This is only an opinion, but it seems like this story arch is mainly focused on Maleficent, I like Cruella and Ursula, but I think maybe possibly this arch should have just been about Maleficent, just an opinion¬†

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    • Ohhh what if its Philip? Ohhh..... ūüėĪ

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    • DZAV21 wrote: Ohhh what if its Philip? Ohhh..... ūüėĪ

      I doubt it, well unless she disguised herself as Aurora and slept with him.

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    • MyPretties wrote:

      DZAV21 wrote: Ohhh what if its Philip? Ohhh..... ūüėĪ

      I doubt it, well unless she disguised herself as Aurora and slept with him.


      Because its beneath Mal to do something like that???? ITS MALEFICENT!

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    • Anubis16 wrote: This is only an opinion, but it seems like this story arch is mainly focused on Maleficent, I like Cruella and Ursula, but I think maybe possibly this arch should have just been about Maleficent, just an opinion¬†

      That's what it seems, I care a lot more about Maleficent, though the story is supposed to be "villains in search of their happy endings", so it has to be aobut Cruella and Ursula. Yeah, it's a change from Cora/Pan/Zelena arcs.

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    • DZAV21 wrote:

      MyPretties wrote:

      DZAV21 wrote: Ohhh what if its Philip? Ohhh..... ūüėĪ

      I doubt it, well unless she disguised herself as Aurora and slept with him.


      Because its beneath Mal to do something like that???? ITS MALEFICENT!

      I don't think its Philip though, Philip knew that Aurora was under a sleeping curse so I doubt he would have been deceived by Maleficent's attempt to impersonate her. I think Maleficent pregnancy was a recent development, probably not too long before Snow herself got pregnant. Its probably why she retired from her villainy. I also think that the unicorn that she was protecting from Regina, was going to be for her child.

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    • Chameleon-Guy wrote:

      Anubis16 wrote: This is only an opinion, but it seems like this story arch is mainly focused on Maleficent, I like Cruella and Ursula, but I think maybe possibly this arch should have just been about Maleficent, just an opinion 

      That's what it seems, I care a lot more about Maleficent, though the story is supposed to be "villains in search of their happy endings", so it has to be aobut Cruella and Ursula. Yeah, it's a change from Cora/Pan/Zelena arcs.

      Well if Rumple just teamed up with only Maleficent it would sitll be plural, two villains in search of their happy endings 

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    • Chameleon-Guy wrote:

      Anubis16 wrote: This is only an opinion, but it seems like this story arch is mainly focused on Maleficent, I like Cruella and Ursula, but I think maybe possibly this arch should have just been about Maleficent, just an opinion 

      That's what it seems, I care a lot more about Maleficent, though the story is supposed to be "villains in search of their happy endings", so it has to be aobut Cruella and Ursula. Yeah, it's a change from Cora/Pan/Zelena arcs. 

      ^I think we all feel more attached to Mal because she was first up for her story. We will learn a lot more about Cruella and Ursula in their own episodes. But I agree that I care a lot more about Mal as well, but give it time and it might be more even after Cruella and Ursula have been given their heart felt episodes


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    • Also, Maleficent was already a big part of the OUAT universe before her re-introduction, she had already interacted with Emma, Regina, Charming, Will, Robin.

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    • Chameleon-Guy wrote: Also, Maleficent was already a big part of the OUAT universe before her re-introduction, she had already interacted with Emma, Regina, Charming, Will, Robin.

      Does Hook also count - back at the end of Season 2 where he was used by Regina as a distraction to Maleficent to get the Storybrooke self destruct black crystal? - It was never made clear how he escaped. Did Maleficent, like Ursella had EF history with Hook?

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    • Andrew.scott.503 wrote:

      Chameleon-Guy wrote: Also, Maleficent was already a big part of the OUAT universe before her re-introduction, she had already interacted with Emma, Regina, Charming, Will, Robin.

      Does Hook also count - back at the end of Season 2 where he was used by Regina as a distraction to Maleficent to get the Storybrooke self destruct black crystal? - It was never made clear how he escaped. Did Maleficent, like Ursella had EF history with Hook?




      That is actually one of the few things that really bugs me/gets on my nerves

      We never seen how he got away from Mal obviously Tamara helped but how


      And how did she go from a zombie to a pile of ash

      (more proof that she was still alive as a pile of ash was the new curse would not have brought her dead ashes over, but it brought her over because she was still alive)- but that makes me think...Regina said in a past season "i brought who i wanted to bring" dose that not mean that snow got to bring who she wanted to bring? why would snow bring Mal's ash's ?, infact why would she bring the wicked witch(Regina made it sound like the caster can pick who the curse takes...unless that only applys to the dead)

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    • I think what happened with the original Dark Curse was, everyone in the Enchanted Forest (save for those protected under Cora's magic dome) was transported to Storybrooke BUT Regina made addendums, adding other people to those affected by the curse, which would explain why Frankenstein and the Mad Hatter were brought over when they were presumably in other lands when the curse was cast.

      As for Maleficent's ashes, I'm fairly certain that in 2.20 she is already just ashes to begin with, and those ashes gather together to form the zombie-ghost thingy. How Greg and Tamara put a stop to her, that is also beyond is me.

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    • Something I'm curious about: was Regina's father's body actually transported over in the curse? Cos I know the coffin is there, in her family crypt, hiding the secret passageway to the vault below. But is the body actually there?

      Sorry if I got too off-track from the thread's topic.

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    • The curse has no real rules. It goes as the plot demands. The only thing it truly and consistently does is travel to a land without magic. And apparently grant a wish, perhaps.

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    • Ive always assumed his actual body was there, just like Daniel's. It's something Regina would do, or the Curse would do for her.

      Which totally has rules. It does what the caster wants, and the majority of what it does seems to be on a subconscious level. And it adapts itself XD

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    • Utter solitude wrote: Ive always assumed his actual body was there, just like Daniel's. It's something Regina would do, or the Curse would do for her.

      Which totally has rules. It does what the caster wants, and the majority of what it does seems to be on a subconscious level. And it adapts itself XD

      I agree that it may work on a subconscious level. Maybe you can't not bring people in the curse cloud because she could have left Zelena behind. Storybrooke seems to also have a part of the curse, meaning along with the time spell and Storybrooke seems to be created no matter what, we never saw it travel to other worlds. The time spell may no longer be apart of the curse. Regina didn't want endless misery or non-aging and freezing all the realms. Snow's curse seems to be weaker and lack as much as the other did before. Snow could have made it so they all had their memories or at least stored somewhere. She also wouldn't make Regina the savior of it. The curse does two specific thing and that's it: Transport and plop down the Storybrooke of your dreams.

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    • Eskaver wrote: The curse has no real rules. It goes as the plot demands. The only thing it truly and consistently does is travel to a land without magic. And apparently grant a wish, perhaps.

      Well, yeah, absolutely. :P We're basically trying to dissect and explain something that is highly inconsistent as it is. I mean, did Snow actually gather the hairs of the most wicked creatures in the land in order to cast her curse, like Regina did in 1.02? Where did Maleficent (or Sidney, or Pongo, for that matter) go during the year back in the Enchanted Forest? There are several unanswered questions and possible plot holes brought on by the very idea of the Dark Curse, that we're probably never ever gonna see resolved. So, if the writers don't bother, why should we? :P

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    • ^^^This is very true.

      I've always imagined that Regina's version of the Curse (the recipe she was given) was specific for her and her purposes. It did what she wanted and was driven by her high ambitions.

      Snow's works in a similar way, imo. (It seems to me that she only need more basic ingredients, as she wasn't trying to do all the stuff Regina was). It esssentially "restored" Storybrooke as the town Snow wanted it to be, including all the people that "belonged" there (at least to her)

      I try not to stress over all the details. Such a thing would keep me up at night! :D

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    • Rena Charming wrote:

      Eskaver wrote: The curse has no real rules. It goes as the plot demands. The only thing it truly and consistently does is travel to a land without magic. And apparently grant a wish, perhaps.

      Well, yeah, absolutely. :P We're basically trying to dissect and explain something that is highly inconsistent as it is. I mean, did Snow actually gather the hairs of the most wicked creatures in the land in order to cast her curse, like Regina did in 1.02? Where did Maleficent (or Sidney, or Pongo, for that matter) go during the year back in the Enchanted Forest? There are several unanswered questions and possible plot holes brought on by the very idea of the Dark Curse, that we're probably never ever gonna see resolved. So, if the writers don't bother, why should we? :P

      I know. I usually focus on the magic rules and stuff, but even in the continuity they just" it was many years ago" "Rumple is around 300, and Hook is around 300, and Hook is 385" Ursula a thousand year old goddess, now sea witch with tentacle powers and apparently mirror and statue powers since that happened around depowered Ursula walking the Earth, now young Ursula meets Hook".

      The rules are loose, the story is loose. While we sit with mouths agape :O, the show do is lose. Audience interest, that is.

      The show likes to tell, more than show character development and moments, yet can't tell us concrete rules. They write like a fairytale of old, whatever works best for the plot.

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    • Utter solitude wrote: ^^^This is very true.

      I've always imagined that Regina's version of the Curse (the recipe she was given) was specific for her and her purposes. It did what she wanted and was driven by her high ambitions.

      Snow's works in a similar way, imo. (It seems to me that she only need more basic ingredients, as she wasn't trying to do all the stuff Regina was). It esssentially "restored" Storybrooke as the town Snow wanted it to be, including all the people that "belonged" there (at least to her)

      I try not to stress over all the details. Such a thing would keep me up at night! :D

      Sadly, I'm one of those that stress over details. Like why was there magic? Snow has no use for magic. I enjoy the show in all its flaws and all. I sound just like Belle! And we know what happened with that!

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    • Yeah, too bad the writers don't put enough effort with the rules of the world they've created. It really hurts the quality of the show. Season 3b is the most inconsistent, and it really doesn't fit. They never mention the missing year or the second curse anymore - if they are not going to use it than why do in the first place. That is why season 3b is my least favorite plus Zelena's story ended on an anticlimax and Emma was a plot device, a Macguffin.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Utter solitude wrote: ^^^This is very true.

      I've always imagined that Regina's version of the Curse (the recipe she was given) was specific for her and her purposes. It did what she wanted and was driven by her high ambitions.

      Snow's works in a similar way, imo. (It seems to me that she only need more basic ingredients, as she wasn't trying to do all the stuff Regina was). It esssentially "restored" Storybrooke as the town Snow wanted it to be, including all the people that "belonged" there (at least to her)

      I try not to stress over all the details. Such a thing would keep me up at night! :D

      Sadly, I'm one of those that stress over details. Like why was there magic? Snow has no use for magic. I enjoy the show in all its flaws and all. I sound just like Belle! And we know what happened with that!

      Snow might not use magic, but remember they needed Emma's magic to stay intact.

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    • I think some of you people are a bit hyper-critical, do you really know what it's like to world build? Every serialized thing I've ever read or watched has had rule creep, where rules are not established until they are needed to be, and not broken until they are needed to be. And of all the things, I think Once deserves the most leadway, because it is working with multiple established worlds. If they didn't put in magic portal shoes from Oz, would any of us been okay with that? No, because that is one of the things you want to see when Oz is portrayed. So I am willing to say: I suppose this could have happened that way, or that could have happened off screen, or this character could of said that knowing what the answer was going to be from the other character, etc., to keep the plot holes small, and to allow the show to continue introducing new characters and new worlds, and for me to still enjoy it. And honestly, the show does a good job of keeping everything straight, we haven't seen any major slipupd so far that can not be explained by another flashback at a later time. The fact that they are even most likely going to explain the recast of Robin Hood with a plot reason, shows the commitment the writers have to having a cohesive narative. Anyway, that's my two cents.

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    • writers are humans, not gods¬†;P

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    • I think the writers could have gotten the cohesive narative. But they always seem like "more and more". They don't take their time to tell the story properly so it all seemed rushed (it always seemed like a kid getting a new toy and toss the old toys aside). If every season had had one big bad, we would have gotten better plots, better characters development and better explainations, better filler episodes. I don't say that Once is bad, I enjoy it. But it could've been better.

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    • Agree. That's why Season 2 sucked...¬†

      The whole "Cora coming to Storybrooke" was so dragged and ended abruptly and then another completly different storyline begun in 2x17, just 5 episodes before the season finale...

      We got a lot of pointless episodes like Tiny, In the Name of the Brother, Lacey, Child of the Moon, The Evil Queen.... 

      And they introduced some characters like Aurora, Phillip and Mulan just for nothing

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    • I think it's a bit more about how they claim to have everything planned out, but they probably mean in a general sense, since they need certain rights for stuff. They also implied that they prefer plot and action moments over nice, simple, and clam character moments. I actually enjoy the more action-oriented pace. I can handle minor continuity problems since you usually can explain it away. But some things are brought up to our attention and then dropped and some suffer the wrath of "bold storytelling". At times it seems as if they write according to a guideline but don't carry the same level of writing, which is understandable since there are many writers.

      For example, the character of Neal/Baelfire. I loved young Baelfire, and didn't really liked Neal whatsoever. But we know he is a key point to most of the plot's narrative. Without him, none of this would have happened. He was also a key point in Emma's story. He also served as a part in the romance of Emma. Then, he died in a random, un-hyped episode. "For bold storytelling" I watch Game of thrones and read the some of books, when a character dies it isn't spontaneous, sometimes foreshadowed but definitely effective, but minor to the overall scheme of the plot. When Neal died, Rumple lost his purpose, Emma lost a romantic interest, Hook had no competition, Henry loses a chance to have a father, "since two mothers don't need him" yet they are replacing that void of a father figure with Hook or Robin. Neal also could have died at anytime prior. He could have died in the season two cliffhanger. Died in the midseason finale of three (which is one of the best episodes). Died in the whole time travel flux, or because Rumple chose power over him again and this time leading to his unintentional death.

      But other than that, I think they have two much to balance out and things simply fall off the scale and never seen again. To many characters to balance, to many plot devices and magical macguffins to keep track of, an overpowered magic system, borderline deus ex machine. They introduce new characters when there is no need to introduce so many when you can have someone else fulfill that role. Plus, some twist they drove into the ground, "Surprise relative", "Not really dead", family problems. I won't even get into the twist of morality the characters and show seems to display. Love it anyway!

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    • Season 2 didn't suck! We got Killian in season 2! ūüėć

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    • And I adored the Cora centred episodes we got in season 2, thank you very much!¬†

      Killian was a big bonus too ^_^

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      I think it's a bit more about how they claim to have everything planned out, but they probably mean in a general sense, since they need certain rights for stuff. They also implied that they prefer plot and action moments over nice, simple, and clam character moments. I actually enjoy the more action-oriented pace. I can handle minor continuity problems since you usually can explain it away. But some things are brought up to our attention and then dropped and some suffer the wrath of "bold storytelling". At times it seems as if they write according to a guideline but don't carry the same level of writing, which is understandable since there are many writers.

      For example, the character of Neal/Baelfire. I loved young Baelfire, and didn't really liked Neal whatsoever. But we know he is a key point to most of the plot's narrative. Without him, none of this would have happened. He was also a key point in Emma's story. He also served as a part in the romance of Emma. Then, he died in a random, un-hyped episode. "For bold storytelling" I watch Game of thrones and read the some of books, when a character dies it isn't spontaneous, sometimes foreshadowed but definitely effective, but minor to the overall scheme of the plot. When Neal died, Rumple lost his purpose, Emma lost a romantic interest, Hook had no competition, Henry loses a chance to have a father, "since two mothers don't need him" yet they are replacing that void of a father figure with Hook or Robin. Neal also could have died at anytime prior. He could have died in the season two cliffhanger. Died in the midseason finale of three (which is one of the best episodes). Died in the whole time travel flux, or because Rumple chose power over him again and this time leading to his unintentional death.

      But other than that, I think they have two much to balance out and things simply fall off the scale and never seen again. To many characters to balance, to many plot devices and magical macguffins to keep track of, an overpowered magic system, borderline deus ex machine. They introduce new characters when there is no need to introduce so many when you can have someone else fulfill that role. Plus, some twist they drove into the ground, "Surprise relative", "Not really dead", family problems. I won't even get into the twist of morality the characters and show seems to display. Love it anyway!

      Yeah, no book series or tv show is perfect though. And I agree they have it planned out in a general sense, but add or subtract things as needed, due to many curcumstances including actors avalibility. They have stated in an interview they know how they want the series to end, which I think is important. Of all genres, fantasy needs to have a planned ending the most, because of its nature. If you don't have an end game in mind, you get lost in the never-ending fun of basically having no limits in what you can do.

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    • Personally, I think OUAT's problems aways begin when the writers suddenly get the rights for something not exactly planned at that point in time and rush to do that, namely Neverland and Frozen. Especially Neverland: I think that's essentially what "went wrong" with the show. They had a story, they had a few setups yet to exploit, then they got the rights for Peter Pan and had to bend the show into that: they dropped, pushed into the background or ended abruptly a lot of great storylines (Cora, Amnesiac Belle, Neal himself and his relationship with Rumple, where the book came from, how Henry got to Storybrooke) and pulled out new ones point blank, which were mostly inconsistent with what we had seen before (the Dragon, the prophecy with Rumple's conflict about Henry, and, above all, the goddamn Home Office). We got a bunch of as yet unexplained stuff about Neverland, during which they tried to squeeze a few of the former key plots (Rumple and Neal, Henry's adoption, the book's origin), which felt unsatisfying because at the time the writers were telling another story which stole the scene to things that had a very strong build up and needed to get the focus themselves.

      In that respect, the Curse undone and subsequent missing year plot was a very clever move: they basically "reset" the show to clean or hide the mess they had made, and to me it worked… until they put everything on hold for the Frozen arc. And this, imo, is how we ended up with too much stuff all at Once (pun intended) which resulted in an excess of characters and self-focussing plots that pushed some formerly pivotal ones further and further into the background except for some random reappearances.

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    • BlueFairy90 wrote: And I adored the Cora centred episodes we got in season 2, thank you very much!¬†

      Killian was a big bonus too ^_^

      I loved Cora! Season two is also when I tolerated Killian. Hook is actually my least favorite of the main characters now and I hope his upcoming backstory with Ursula will help explain his turn to piracy (because that didn't really make sense).

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    • GothicNarcissus wrote: Personally, I think OUAT's problems aways begin when the writers suddenly get the rights for something not exactly planned at that point in time and rush to do that, namely Neverland and Frozen. Especially Neverland: I think that's essentially what "went wrong" with the show. They had a story, they had a few setups yet to exploit, then they got the rights for Peter Pan and had to bend the show into that: they dropped, pushed into the background or ended abruptly a lot of great storylines (Cora, Amnesiac Belle, Neal himself and his relationship with Rumple, where the book came from, how Henry got to Storybrooke) and pulled out new ones point blank, which were mostly inconsistent with what we had seen before (the Dragon, the prophecy with Rumple's conflict about Henry, and, above all, the goddamn Home Office). We got a bunch of as yet unexplained stuff about Neverland, during which they tried to squeeze a few of the former key plots (Rumple and Neal, Henry's adoption, the book's origin), which felt unsatisfying because at the time the writers were telling another story which stole the scene to things that had a very strong build up and needed to get the focus themselves.

      In that respect, the Curse undone and subsequent missing year plot was a very clever move: they basically "reset" the show to clean or hide the mess they had made, and to me it worked… until they put everything on hold for the Frozen arc. And this, imo, is how we ended up with too much stuff all at Once (pun intended) which resulted in an excess of characters and self-focussing plots that pushed some formerly pivotal ones further and further into the background except for some random reappearances.

      So to simplyify the issues: rushed, dropped, lost potential

      My ordeal is partially the recycled nature of the plot. Interesting but a bit predictable in the loop-de-loop of character progression. Regina's "will she turn evil", Emma's "accepting herself x100", Hook's "Will he tell Emma", Rumple and Belle's separation, Everyone else's nonexistence, Tragic villain #2834. The only thing knew is Snowing's secret and more villains, in terms of character.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      GothicNarcissus wrote: Personally, I think OUAT's problems aways begin when the writers suddenly get the rights for something not exactly planned at that point in time and rush to do that, namely Neverland and Frozen. Especially Neverland: I think that's essentially what "went wrong" with the show. They had a story, they had a few setups yet to exploit, then they got the rights for Peter Pan and had to bend the show into that: they dropped, pushed into the background or ended abruptly a lot of great storylines (Cora, Amnesiac Belle, Neal himself and his relationship with Rumple, where the book came from, how Henry got to Storybrooke) and pulled out new ones point blank, which were mostly inconsistent with what we had seen before (the Dragon, the prophecy with Rumple's conflict about Henry, and, above all, the goddamn Home Office). We got a bunch of as yet unexplained stuff about Neverland, during which they tried to squeeze a few of the former key plots (Rumple and Neal, Henry's adoption, the book's origin), which felt unsatisfying because at the time the writers were telling another story which stole the scene to things that had a very strong build up and needed to get the focus themselves.

      In that respect, the Curse undone and subsequent missing year plot was a very clever move: they basically "reset" the show to clean or hide the mess they had made, and to me it worked… until they put everything on hold for the Frozen arc. And this, imo, is how we ended up with too much stuff all at Once (pun intended) which resulted in an excess of characters and self-focussing plots that pushed some formerly pivotal ones further and further into the background except for some random reappearances.

      So to simplyify the issues: rushed, dropped, lost potential

      My ordeal is partially the recycled nature of the plot. Interesting but a bit predictable in the loop-de-loop of character progression. Regina's "will she turn evil", Emma's "accepting herself x100", Hook's "Will he tell Emma", Rumple and Belle's separation, Everyone else's nonexistence, Tragic villain #2834. The only thing knew is Snowing's secret and more villains, in terms of character.

      I actually liked Ingrid, she was a great villain. She was actually the best thing about the Frozen Arc.

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    • GothicNarcissus wrote:
      Personally, I think OUAT's problems aways begin when the writers suddenly get the rights for something not exactly planned at that point in time and rush to do that, namely Neverland and Frozen. Especially Neverland: I think that's essentially what "went wrong" with the show. They had a story, they had a few setups yet to exploit, then they got the rights for Peter Pan and had to bend the show into that: they dropped, pushed into the background or ended abruptly a lot of great storylines (Cora, Amnesiac Belle, Neal himself and his relationship with Rumple, where the book came from, how Henry got to Storybrooke) and pulled out new ones point blank, which were mostly inconsistent with what we had seen before (the Dragon, the prophecy with Rumple's conflict about Henry, and, above all, the goddamn Home Office). We got a bunch of as yet unexplained stuff about Neverland, during which they tried to squeeze a few of the former key plots (Rumple and Neal, Henry's adoption, the book's origin), which felt unsatisfying because at the time the writers were telling another story which stole the scene to things that had a very strong build up and needed to get the focus themselves.

      In that respect, the Curse undone and subsequent missing year plot was a very clever move: they basically "reset" the show to clean or hide the mess they had made, and to me it worked… until they put everything on hold for the Frozen arc. And this, imo, is how we ended up with too much stuff all at Once (pun intended) which resulted in an excess of characters and self-focussing plots that pushed some formerly pivotal ones further and further into the background except for some random reappearances.

      The only problem with what you said is they knew they had the rights to Neverland since the begining of Season 2, which is why they we're able to do Hook and Smee early on in the season, so actually the whole season was designed with them knowing they were going to take us to Neverland in Season 3. The problem probably came in them wanting to explain too many things in Season 2 before the Neverland arc (that Bae was Neal and also Henry's father and also a lost boy; that Cora was the Queen of Hearts and how she met Rumple; who Dr. Whale was; more backstory on Snow, Charming, Regina, Red, Rumple, Belle, and Emma; how Hook know Rumple; while also introducing King Arthur, Jack and the Beanstalk, Frankinstein, Mulan, and Robin Hood mythos into the show). It just became more things to do than the 22 episodes could handle. You will notice that after this season they started doing the much more focused half season arcs, and the problems they had in Season 2 is probably a big reason for that. It will be interesting to see if they continue doing these half season arcs, or attempt a more loose approach again.

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    • I might be wrong, 'cause it's been two years, but I remember from some interview they were unsure they could include Peter Pan because the character himself was copyrighted to some British foundation. So they had rights for the side characters, but not Pan himself, and got them halfway through Season 2. But as I say, I might be wrong after all this time. XD

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    • ^^I don't think you are, I remember that too.

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    • GothicNarcissus wrote: I might be wrong, 'cause it's been two years, but I remember from some interview they were unsure they could include Peter Pan because the character himself was copyrighted to some British foundation. So they had rights for the side characters, but not Pan himself, and got them halfway through Season 2. But as I say, I might be wrong after all this time. XD

      I think you might be right. Regardless of when, after Cora's death, the season when to the dumps. The Home Office arc was brief and was lost potential. Greg and Tamara are pawns and died right away, no backstory for Tamara, could have been replaced by John and Michael and a lot of potential lost. Anyone can see how rushed and how the plot dropped into oblivion quickly into the new season.

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    • In that respect, the Curse undone and subsequent missing year plot was a very clever move: they basically "reset" the show to clean or hide the mess they had made, and to me it worked‚Ķ until they put everything on hold for the Frozen arc. And this, imo, is how we ended up with too much stuff all at Once (pun intended) which resulted in an excess of characters and self-focussing plots that pushed some formerly pivotal ones further and further into the background except for some random reappearances.

      For goodness sake! IMO things wern't put on hold so much during the Frozen arc! What would the characters have done if Zelena had been "killed" and no time portal had happened? Do you think Urusula/Cruella would be here? Would Maleficent be ressurected? No. Rumple would not have been banished. The happy ending seaching would not have happened either! 

      How many times? The Frozen arc was a wonderful follow up from Zelena part 1, and this current queens arc. I think the fact that they revealed Maleficent would be back before the start of season 4 made the non Frozen people just wish the Frozen arc would be over with already! That's how I felt season 4 started. I just wanted the Snow Queen out of the way for Maleficent. 

      I too enjoyed the "reset" in 3B. Everything was not put on hold for the Frozen arc! The Frozen people just came to the forefront. Whether or not you like it or not is up to you, But that is what happened! In fact Regina's whole sub plot of happy endings and "Saving Marion" only came about because of Frozen! Same with the hat! I'm sure Rumple would have figured out the secret of removing himself from the dagger. But remember it was Ingrid who told him that he needed Hook's heart! In fact Emma accepting her powers was because of Elsa too! So please enough of "Frozen came along and everything was put on hold" because it is NOT true. We are only where we are now because of Frozen. It was nice also how the little seeds of plots were being made in the Frozen arc. Now we are seeing them blossom! The author, the sorcerer, Rumple, etc. 

      Rant over.

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    • BlueFairy90 wrote:

      In that respect, the Curse undone and subsequent missing year plot was a very clever move: they basically "reset" the show to clean or hide the mess they had made, and to me it worked… until they put everything on hold for the Frozen arc. And this, imo, is how we ended up with too much stuff all at Once (pun intended) which resulted in an excess of characters and self-focussing plots that pushed some formerly pivotal ones further and further into the background except for some random reappearances.

      For goodness sake! IMO things wern't put on hold so much during the Frozen arc! What would the characters have done if Zelena had been "killed" and no time portal had happened? Do you think Urusula/Cruella would be here? Would Maleficent be ressurected? No. Rumple would not have been banished. The happy ending seaching would not have happened either! 

      How many times? The Frozen arc was a wonderful follow up from Zelena part 1, and this current queens arc. I think the fact that they revealed Maleficent would be back before the start of season 4 made the non Frozen people just wish the Frozen arc would be over with already! That's how I felt season 4 started. I just wanted the Snow Queen out of the way for Maleficent. 

      I too enjoyed the "reset" in 3B. Everything was not put on hold for the Frozen arc! The Frozen people just came to the forefront. Whether or not you like it or not is up to you, But that is what happened! In fact Regina's whole sub plot of happy endings and "Saving Marion" only came about because of Frozen! Same with the hat! I'm sure Rumple would have figured out the secret of removing himself from the dagger. But remember it was Ingrid who told him that he needed Hook's heart! In fact Emma accepting her powers was because of Elsa too! So please enough of "Frozen came along and everything was put on hold" because it is NOT true. We are only where we are now because of Frozen. It was nice also how the little seeds of plots were being made in the Frozen arc. Now we are seeing them blossom! The author, the sorcerer, Rumple, etc. 

      Rant over.

      I heard that orginally someone else was supposed to come out of that urn instead of Elsa, the creators won't confirm who though, I think it was either Ursula or Cruella 


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    • Well, Frozen arc did put a hold on Marian stuff, since she would have stepped aside and there would be no need for what if. Most of the core characters were on hold and only Rumple and Belle did something and not many liked Rumple's characterization as "1-D evil". Emma once again accepted her powers, (which she did in the season three finale), Hook was keeping secrets again, Snow, Charming, and Will were in the background. It is without dispute that Elsa and Anna took up most of the screentime/ effort. CGI troll looked better than the rest of the CGI before and in 4b. Frozen stuff could not be changed and you have probably enough material to make a miniseries of Once: Frozen from all their scenes. Sure, it went down as the season progressed but it still was quite a bit much. It was almost Frozen flashbacks, Frozen current, and then Once stuff filling the gaps. I loved it as it progressed and Ingrid was a fantastic villain who didn't really need Frozen in the end.

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    • Emma accepted her family in 3B. Her powers are a different matter. I too care very little for Rumple going backwards. In terms of morality.¬†

      I (So far) don't see the point of bringing Will to SB. He had a happy ending in Wonderland. I would rather have seen Anastasia be bought to the main show. A personal gripe I admit. lol. 

      Ahhhh but is it Marian though? That's another debate I do admit. But it may or may not be linked with Zelena 

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    • BlueFairy90 wrote:

      In that respect, the Curse undone and subsequent missing year plot was a very clever move: they basically "reset" the show to clean or hide the mess they had made, and to me it worked… until they put everything on hold for the Frozen arc. And this, imo, is how we ended up with too much stuff all at Once (pun intended) which resulted in an excess of characters and self-focussing plots that pushed some formerly pivotal ones further and further into the background except for some random reappearances.

      For goodness sake! IMO things wern't put on hold so much during the Frozen arc! What would the characters have done if Zelena had been "killed" and no time portal had happened? Do you think Urusula/Cruella would be here? Would Maleficent be ressurected? No. Rumple would not have been banished. The happy ending seaching would not have happened either! 

      How many times? The Frozen arc was a wonderful follow up from Zelena part 1, and this current queens arc. I think the fact that they revealed Maleficent would be back before the start of season 4 made the non Frozen people just wish the Frozen arc would be over with already! That's how I felt season 4 started. I just wanted the Snow Queen out of the way for Maleficent. 

      I too enjoyed the "reset" in 3B. Everything was not put on hold for the Frozen arc! The Frozen people just came to the forefront. Whether or not you like it or not is up to you, But that is what happened! In fact Regina's whole sub plot of happy endings and "Saving Marion" only came about because of Frozen! Same with the hat! I'm sure Rumple would have figured out the secret of removing himself from the dagger. But remember it was Ingrid who told him that he needed Hook's heart! In fact Emma accepting her powers was because of Elsa too! So please enough of "Frozen came along and everything was put on hold" because it is NOT true. We are only where we are now because of Frozen. It was nice also how the little seeds of plots were being made in the Frozen arc. Now we are seeing them blossom! The author, the sorcerer, Rumple, etc. 

      Rant over.


      The Frozen arc is consequent but not as tightly connected as you might think to the "portal to the past" plot. And bore pretty much no direct relevance to the Hat plot, which was a consequence of the Second Curse. I loved the Frozen arc while it was going, but in hindsight it didn't forward the general plot, nor the characters, at all. Let's analyse it, shall we?

      • Regina: starts off alone, with Robin tied to his not-dead wife (point 1). Marian gets out of the picture through the ice spell, but not entirely. Regina tries to save her. Ingrid gets defeated, Marian lives but wants to leave Robin to Regina. The ice spell lingers, so Robin ends up tied to his not-dead wife and Regina is alone (point 1).
      • Emma: is starting to open up to people, accept her place in Storybrooke and her magical heritage (point 1). Ingrid screws her up to make her lose control of her magic. She pulls and Elsa and runs from everyone. Elsa helps her. Emma opens up to people, accepts her place in Storybrooke and her magical heritage (point 1),
      • The Charmings: they have little relevance to the Frozen plot, but the Frozen plot has basically none to them.
      • Henry: no relevance to the Frozen plot, he's totally up to Operation Mangoose which has nothing to do with Elsa & co.
      • Rumple: In the past, he contributed to the Frozen crisis (so he added to the plot). In the present, he's up to entirely different things and does not interact with anyone but Ingrid, and merely in regards of his own quest (thus the Frozen plot has no real impact on him).
      • Belle: has one Frozen-related flashback, but her big turning point in present day comes from the Hat plot.

      So, basically, the main cast either interacted with the Frozen plot but got little developement out of it, or didn't at all. We learned pieces of the past, sure, especially Emma, but this progression went backward and was adjusted to fit the storilyne, not forward. What drove the overall plot were the Hat and Operation Mangoose plots, and anything the Frozen plot added to them was not intrinsecally connected with its core: Rumple used Anna's tear to get the hat, but it could have been, say, Cinderella's (hello, we had a Season One). Belle went to Arendelle to get her memories and learned about Rumple from Anna: she could have gone to the Blue Fairy instead. Rumple learned the final ingredient to the spell from Ingrid, it could have been anything else. I like how they worked things out all in all, and as I said I did love the arc, but they integrated OUAT into Frozen, not the other way round: this is why I say that arc slowed the show down considreably.

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    • I agree. The Frozen arc had neither characters developement nor plot advancement. But at least it didn't retcon the series like the wicked arc: and they retcon important things like: how the Dark Curse is created, which i was hoping they would have done it that Zelena found a way to recreate the curse from Regina's blood (and that also doesn't leave us wondering why she needed her blood); crashing a heart and then splitting different one and put it in the heartless person; Cora and Leopold engagement (and that give a crappy explanation on Twitter); using Emma as a Macguffin - they needed to get back to LWM to get to Emma so she could do nothing at all; Regina suddely has light Magic without even trying; Zelena being their biggest threat for a year! She was able to make Neal kill himself! She almost got charming kill himself for nothing. All this build up only to end it in a really poor and easy way.

      I really didn't like that arc. They could have come up with better explanation to the events that happend.

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    • Zelena didn't use Regina's blood to recreate the curse. I figured Zelena was just using the blood to make sure she Regina's sister (A&E confirmed this at some point). And Regina was able to help Snow with preparing the curse without the scroll because we see her absorbing the scroll into her hands in 3x11. Regina was able to split the heart in half because there was enough light magic in her heart since Snow was awaken from the sleeping curse so that her heart could keep both herself and David alive. Snow said: "We have been of one heart since the day he woke me from the sleeping curse."

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    • WorldHopper22 wrote: Zelena didn't use Regina's blood to recreate the curse. I figured Zelena was just using the blood to make sure she Regina's sister (A&E confirmed this at some point). And Regina was able to help Snow with preparing the curse without the scroll because we see her absorbing the scroll into her hands in 3x11. Regina was able to split the heart in half because there was enough light magic in her heart since Snow was awaken from the sleeping curse so that her heart could keep both herself and David alive. Snow said: "We have been of one heart since the day he woke me from the sleeping curse."

      Totally no! Snow's heart split was plot contrived. There was no light magic in anyone's heart mumbo jumbo. Snow was using poetic reasoning in an act of desperation. Noone ever tried to split a heart, and there is no reason a body would react positively to another body.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      WorldHopper22 wrote: Zelena didn't use Regina's blood to recreate the curse. I figured Zelena was just using the blood to make sure she Regina's sister (A&E confirmed this at some point). And Regina was able to help Snow with preparing the curse without the scroll because we see her absorbing the scroll into her hands in 3x11. Regina was able to split the heart in half because there was enough light magic in her heart since Snow was awaken from the sleeping curse so that her heart could keep both herself and David alive. Snow said: "We have been of one heart since the day he woke me from the sleeping curse."

      Totally no! Snow's heart split was plot contrived. There was no light magic in anyone's heart mumbo jumbo. Snow was using poetic reasoning in an act of desperation. Noone ever tried to split a heart, and there is no reason a body would react positively to another body.

      I'll have to defend that writing choice: True Love is the most powerful magic of all, and that's how it worked. Why did Snow choose to do so? Well, she took a HUGE leap of faith. A very stupid one, considering she was pregnant and responsible for her child's well being, but has Snow ever been smart to begin with?

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    • Ok, this is how I see it: OUaT does a lot of stupid, contrived, insane stuff. Snow White getting her heart split in halves so she could save Charming? One of the stupid, contrived, insane things I don't have a problem with, at all, and never did. Why? I thought it was beautiful. Loved, loved, loved everything about it. I can understand those who don't and who refuse to suspend their disbelief about that moment. Me, personally, I'm not gonna dissect that moment because it is one of the few truly romantic moments of the series for me, and one of my favorites.

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    • I must admit I loved that scene a lot because of the OH SO MANY FEELS Regina gave me, and I barely paid attention to the Charmings at all. But taking leaps of faith for love without a single thought about the consequences is 150% in character and not contrived, when it comes to the Charmings (My kingdom is starving and I have to marry a woman to save it? Screw the peasants, my love life comes first!).

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    • A couple of thoughts:

      1. I don't know why everyone is mad at Snow for saying no to Maleficent. 

      It's MALEFICENT for god's shake. 

      What would you think if the Mistress Of All Evil suddenly shows up in the middle of the night asking for help?? I would think it's a trap

      How can Snow be sure that it wasn't a plan against her? After all, Maleficent/Regina are friends. 

      2. At this point, I doubt Will is going to get an entire episode dedicated to him. But, they have to explain somehow what's up with him because they can't have a character just being there an ENTIRE SEASON without giving an explanation. That would be super lame.

      I think we'll find out what happened to Anastasia through a conversation between Will and Belle. And I thinking Anastasia could be dead

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    • 8Rob wrote: A couple of thoughts:

      1. I don't know why everyone is mad at Snow for saying no to Maleficent. 

      It's MALEFICENT for god's shake. 

      What would you think if the Mistress Of All Evil suddenly shows up in the middle of the night asking for help?? I would think it's a trap

      How can Snow be sure that it wasn't a plan against her? After all, Maleficent/Regina are friends. 

      2. At this point, I doubt Will is going to get an entire episode dedicated to him. But, they have to explain somehow what's up with him because they can't have a character just being there an ENTIRE SEASON without giving an explanation. That would be super lame.

      I think we'll find out what happened to Anastasia through a conversation between Will and Belle. And I thinking Anastasia could be dead

      If what Snow did was so right then she wouldn't be clamoring to keep it secret in the present day.

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    • I loved the moment between Snow, Charming and Regina. However, I think we all can admit Snow and David aren't particularly the best of rulers. Snow risked her, Baby Neal, and others lives with her sacrifice.

      1) It is in character for Snow to say no to Maleficent. Asking after that whole ordeal and appearing in the middle of the night trying to convince her isn't the best plan. Snow always have had a "Be purely good" complex since her mother died. However, Snow should learn the definition of the word "we" because David was asleep when she made that decision.

      2) Will won't get an entire episode on him. He's still minor character/comic relief/ love triangle dramatic tool. They might hint at it in later episodes. Ana should have died in the end of Wonderland and it would have been okay for me to have him go on, but Will and Belle were mourning lost love and BAM! together.

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    • MyPretties wrote:

      8Rob wrote: A couple of thoughts:

      1. I don't know why everyone is mad at Snow for saying no to Maleficent. 

      It's MALEFICENT for god's shake. 

      What would you think if the Mistress Of All Evil suddenly shows up in the middle of the night asking for help?? I would think it's a trap

      How can Snow be sure that it wasn't a plan against her? After all, Maleficent/Regina are friends. 

      2. At this point, I doubt Will is going to get an entire episode dedicated to him. But, they have to explain somehow what's up with him because they can't have a character just being there an ENTIRE SEASON without giving an explanation. That would be super lame.

      I think we'll find out what happened to Anastasia through a conversation between Will and Belle. And I thinking Anastasia could be dead

      If what Snow did was so right then she wouldn't be clamoring to keep it secret in the present day.

      IT's her drive to be pure and good, ever since her mother died she has always strived for it.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      MyPretties wrote:

      8Rob wrote: A couple of thoughts:

      1. I don't know why everyone is mad at Snow for saying no to Maleficent. 

      It's MALEFICENT for god's shake. 

      What would you think if the Mistress Of All Evil suddenly shows up in the middle of the night asking for help?? I would think it's a trap

      How can Snow be sure that it wasn't a plan against her? After all, Maleficent/Regina are friends. 

      2. At this point, I doubt Will is going to get an entire episode dedicated to him. But, they have to explain somehow what's up with him because they can't have a character just being there an ENTIRE SEASON without giving an explanation. That would be super lame.

      I think we'll find out what happened to Anastasia through a conversation between Will and Belle. And I thinking Anastasia could be dead

      If what Snow did was so right then she wouldn't be clamoring to keep it secret in the present day.

      IT's her drive to be pure and good, ever since her mother died she has always strived for it.

      Like I said way earlier, technically it was heroic for Snow and Charming to attempt to stop Maleficent's resurrection, however their motives weren't heroic at all. Snow condemned a child because her mother wasn't good. Then they try to stop Maleficent's resurrection, not to save everyone, but to keep their secret. If she was in the complete right, then she wouldn't be desperately clinging on to any chance to keep it a secret.

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    • You are going off topic here. It's a conversation about the flaws of Once Upon A Time.

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    • Farerb wrote: You are going off topic here. It's a conversation about the flaws of Once Upon A Time.

      Actually that's off topic, the topic of this page are thoughts on the episode Unforgiven.

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    • MyPretties wrote:

      Farerb wrote: You are going off topic here. It's a conversation about the flaws of Once Upon A Time.

      Actually that's off topic, the topic of this page are thoughts on the episode Unforgiven.

      I think there's a chance Farerb was being sarcastic.

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    • When talking about Unforgiven, certain flaws come up within the episode which sometimes goes off on a tangent. For example, David and Snow learned about the curse and their baby from Rumple in the Pilot, I think. Now, it's retconned (or changed) to Mal and the QoD playing that role before Rumple, which makes no sense for why they are surprised later on. This leads back to thoughts of how they said Leopold and Cora knew each other in season one, but it didn't and still doesn't look that way how the actors, great actors at that, portray them. This is a slight issue where they add stuff that supposedly happened prior in the plot to justify the current plot at hand. Zelena was a retcon in a sorts. I liked her but we had no mention or clue that Cora had a daughter beforehand and she never mentions it in Once or Once Wonderland. Zelena was made Regina's sister unnecessarily but A&E love their "surprise relative" even though Zelena's motives made no sense.

      This goes back to current episodes, like Unforgiven, where if you notice an inconsistency you can point it out. Like why was Snow's heart not blackened then seeing what she done to Maleficent, why wasn't this her biggest secret in the Echo Caves, why wasn't it foreshadowed? Will it be mentioned ever after this arc? Like Zelena, many plot elements simply drop off after the arc. I'm sure no one will find out Rumple killed Zelena, no one seems to care, and they don't really talk about her like Regina's sister.

      But some questions I have are: How do the other Queens know what Snow (not Charming since he was asleep) did to Maleficent? How does keeping this secret for so long allow Snow to have a "pure heart"? (Besides just think about it a couple months ago)

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    • How did the QOD know what Snow did? I think that may be answered in a future episode. ¬†I don't feel like we got the whole story. ¬†Snow specifically said "Because of us, Maleficent lost her child". Now the word lost could have many meanings. ¬†I think the meaning is going to be something akin to how Snow 'lost' Emma during the Curse.

      I think something happened AFTER the secret meeting of Snow and Maleficent that led to whatever happened. And David was a part of that. and Maleficent probably either shared her info with C & U, or it became known to them through the way the actions occurred. And I do find that it is a distinct possibility that the end of that plot remains unknown, and Snow may be feeling guilty for something that she only thinks happened.

      Her response to Maleficent in the scene at the End of Unforgiven was TOTALLY in character. I don't think that is the scene that is causing the issues. It's something that we have yet to find out.

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    • I dont think Anastasia is dead. In the last episode of OUATW Alice is reading a book to her daughter about how Anastasia and Will are the White Queen and King and about how they lived happily ever after. Seeing that Alices daughter is around 7-10 years old we can assume that we haven't got to that time in Once Upon a Time, which means Anas and Will story is not over. Besides it looks to me like Will havent become the white king just yet, so the reason for their separation must be another one.

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    • D.Prince wrote: I dont think Anastasia is dead. In the last episode of OUATW Alice is reading a book to her daughter about how Anastasia and Will are the White Queen and King and about how they lived happily ever after. Seeing that Alices daughter is around 7-10 years old we can assume that we haven't got to that time in Once Upon a Time, which means Anas and Will story is not over. Besides it looks to me like Will havent become the white king just yet, so the reason for their separation must be another one.

      It's been posited elsewhere that Alice may have altered events in her story to her daughter-- that she may have made up the happy ending for Will and Ana and something tragic might have actually happened. (I don't think that's the case, but it's an interesting thought!)

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    • DZAV21 wrote: Geez Belle.. Couldn't wait for the ink on your divorce papers to dry a little?? Its only been 6 weeks!!!

      Six weeks is plenty of time to get over an abusive relationship XD

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    • It was almost like Rumple was married to magic, and Belle was the other woman.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      DZAV21 wrote: Geez Belle.. Couldn't wait for the ink on your divorce papers to dry a little?? Its only been 6 weeks!!!

      Six weeks is plenty of time to get over an abusive relationship XD

      Rumple never abused Belle,

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    • He certainly did. Not all abuse is physical or verbal.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      DZAV21 wrote: Geez Belle.. Couldn't wait for the ink on your divorce papers to dry a little?? Its only been 6 weeks!!!

      Six weeks is plenty of time to get over an abusive relationship XD


      Ohhh good point...

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    • Perhaps someone would like to start a thread discussing flaws of the show?¬†:)

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      Perhaps someone would like to start a thread discussing flaws of the show? :)


      You go right ahead darlin....

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    • Belle deserves a man who doesn't plot with evil sorceresses to cast dark and terrible curses. She deserves a man with whom she comes in first place, not second place to something else. At the same time, I don't see ScarletBeauty as an epic romance, its a rebound relationship for those two, and rebound relationships rarely last long. I have to admit, I get annoyed when I see people say "poor Rumple", especially since a lot of those people are the same ones who are all up on Regina's case saying that she should have to work harder to earn back her happy ending. It also seems like those same people forgot that Rumple had multiple opportunities to stop Ingrid, but instead allowed her to cast that spell, because he was planning on making himself look like the hero by saying that he saved everyone he could when just him, Belle and Henry made it out of Storybrooke. He didn't care that some of the people he was going to let die were her family and friends. If Regina pulled that, everyone would be all up on her case, but since it was Rumple, I see a lot of "oh he was just trying to get released from the dagger" or "how could you Belle" or the one that makes me laugh the most, "Will better watch out". My point is that you can't just say that one person needs to pay for what they've done but another whose done worse just needs understanding. Especially since that's the same person who backs a vengeful woman into a corner that gives her no other option but to cast a dark curse. I understand Regina cast the curse, but you can't manipulate someone into doing something like that and then not be partially responsible.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      How did the QOD know what Snow did? I think that may be answered in a future episode.  I don't feel like we got the whole story.  Snow specifically said "Because of us, Maleficent lost her child". Now the word lost could have many meanings.  I think the meaning is going to be something akin to how Snow 'lost' Emma during the Curse.

      I think something happened AFTER the secret meeting of Snow and Maleficent that led to whatever happened. And David was a part of that. and Maleficent probably either shared her info with C & U, or it became known to them through the way the actions occurred. And I do find that it is a distinct possibility that the end of that plot remains unknown, and Snow may be feeling guilty for something that she only thinks happened.

      Her response to Maleficent in the scene at the End of Unforgiven was TOTALLY in character. I don't think that is the scene that is causing the issues. It's something that we have yet to find out.

      I agree, I think Best Laid Plans shows us the rest of the story between Snow, Charming, Maleficent, Ursula, and Cruella.

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    • I think the same too. I also think all the secrets kept from Emma will pour out in the episode Poor Unfortunate Soul, probably referring to Emma. Leading to her struggling with her darkness inside her for episode 16 or something. I also think there will be a huge cliffhanger for that episode because I hear there is a 2-week hiatus, since they are skipping airing an Easter episode unlike last year where on Easter, Bleeding Through aired.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      D.Prince wrote: I dont think Anastasia is dead. In the last episode of OUATW Alice is reading a book to her daughter about how Anastasia and Will are the White Queen and King and about how they lived happily ever after. Seeing that Alices daughter is around 7-10 years old we can assume that we haven't got to that time in Once Upon a Time, which means Anas and Will story is not over. Besides it looks to me like Will havent become the white king just yet, so the reason for their separation must be another one.

      It's been posited elsewhere that Alice may have altered events in her story to her daughter-- that she may have made up the happy ending for Will and Ana and something tragic might have actually happened. (I don't think that's the case, but it's an interesting thought!)

      I really hope thats not tha case, there arent that much lies (of this kind on the show) specially in a season-series finally (which was when Alice told this)

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    • Maybe Emma and Hook's travel to the past¬†in 3x22¬†changed the Wonderland story.

      I don't know how but it's possible 

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    • MyPretties wrote: Belle deserves a man who doesn't plot with evil sorceresses to cast dark and terrible curses. She deserves a man with whom she comes in first place, not second place to something else. At the same time, I don't see ScarletBeauty as an epic romance, its a rebound relationship for those two, and rebound relationships rarely last long. I have to admit, I get annoyed when I see people say "poor Rumple", especially since a lot of those people are the same ones who are all up on Regina's case saying that she should have to work harder to earn back her happy ending. It also seems like those same people forgot that Rumple had multiple opportunities to stop Ingrid, but instead allowed her to cast that spell, because he was planning on making himself look like the hero by saying that he saved everyone he could when just him, Belle and Henry made it out of Storybrooke. He didn't care that some of the people he was going to let die were her family and friends. If Regina pulled that, everyone would be all up on her case, but since it was Rumple, I see a lot of "oh he was just trying to get released from the dagger" or "how could you Belle" or the one that makes me laugh the most, "Will better watch out". My point is that you can't just say that one person needs to pay for what they've done but another whose done worse just needs understanding. Especially since that's the same person who backs a vengeful woman into a corner that gives her no other option but to cast a dark curse. I understand Regina cast the curse, but you can't manipulate someone into doing something like that and then not be partially responsible.


      I totally agree with this. I see people tend to take the villains side because this show tend to victimize them and to justify their bad actions cause of a tragic backstory. However, heroes suffer too and yet they decide to do the right thing. Im not saying they are perfect or that they havent made wrong choices (thats just part of life), but at least they dont go around destroying every person who gets in their way.

      I dont what people expected from Belle, but it was not healthy to continue on with that relationship. Im pretty sure that if this was real life, no one would be defending rumple, no one here would have like that their partner lied and try to murder a friend.

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    • When Cruella and Ursula visit the pawn shop, one of the coffee cups from Granny's that Will got is on the counter where Belle is.

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    • D.Prince wrote:

      I really hope thats not tha case, there arent that much lies (of this kind on the show) specially in a season-series finally (which was when Alice told this)

      It's not a lie, it's Alice telling her daughter a story. XD I mean, I would rather tell my daughter that my friends had a happy ending, rather then "they were eaten by mome raths!" or something :D

      But I don't think it's the case anyway. I think a lot of people around the internet are forgetting (or don't realize!) that there is clearly a gap of many years between when we last see Will in Wonderland and when Alice is telling that story. If we believe Alice's account is true, he will end up with Ana-- just not yet, as it's years away from present time in Storybrooke. I don't see the point in getting so upset over the Will/Belle relationship.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      D.Prince wrote:

      I really hope thats not tha case, there arent that much lies (of this kind on the show) specially in a season-series finally (which was when Alice told this)

      It's not a lie, it's Alice telling her daughter a story. XD I mean, I would rather tell my daughter that my friends had a happy ending, rather then "they were eaten by mome raths!" or something :D

      But I don't think it's the case anyway. I think a lot of people around the internet are forgetting (or don't realize!) that there is clearly a gap of many years between when we last see Will in Wonderland and when Alice is telling that story. If we believe Alice's account is true, he will end up with Ana-- just not yet, as it's years away from present time in Storybrooke. I don't see the point in getting so upset over the Will/Belle relationship.

      I think people are upset because it seems so out of character with Will. He went to pretty extreme lengths to shield himself from the pain he got after Anastasia left him, yet here the only direct reference to her has been the library break in and now he seems to have moved on. We can assume he's just looking fo a distraction, but really, must we assume everything? Can't they show us? If the writers had given us a scene of him all heartbroken over losing her again and sharing his pain with the newly-heartbroken Belle, or a scene in which the two of them connected at all, it wouldn't seem so out of place.

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    • Ok, before we all get all bent out of shape. If I've been out of town for 6-7 weeks, come back, and see a couple kiss, I'm not going to have a clue what went down. ¬†The whole scene of watching Belle was seen from Rumple's perspective. ¬†Sure, it comes kinda out of the blue for us as the audience as well, but it is totally in keepeing with the perspective that the scene is showing, which is Rumples.

      I feel confident that someone else is going to comment on this to Will or Belle, and we'll get a better explanation. In fact, one of the BTS pics from 4x14 is of Killian sitting down next to Will (It's also been on the Home page of the Wiki all week). We know that Killian and Belle had been working together to free the Fairies, so I would not be surprised to see a friendship form there. And from past episodes, Killian does not care too much for the Drunken thief. So this scene could be the deux ex machine to reveal more details on ScarlettBeauty.

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    • My goodness, they are clearly going to show us. The whole point of those kinds of shocking scenes are to make us wonder what's going on, and want to see more. If they showed us things the way some people seem to want them it would be boring. There'd be no wonder.

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    • Utter solitude wrote: My goodness, they are clearly going to show us. The whole point of those kinds of shocking scenes are to make us wonder what's going on, and want to see more. If they showed us things the way some people seem to want them it would be boring. There'd be no wonder.

      Actually, Gigi, they have just explicitly told us in the new Hot Seat Q&A that they won't show us lol. They will talk about it though. Which is what I thought would happen anyway.

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    • This is why I come off a bit negative, lol. I love this show, but ugh it makes me laugh in rage.

      We all think that some are optimistic and think they they'll show us and that others are a bit negative and pessimistic, but then A&E prove out doubts. I'm okay either way, but for those that want to know about how Will and Belle got together and where's Anastasia and stuff, remember there's an entire episode about the Hoods in New York and a flashback about why Robin Hood looks different.

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    • Show us/ talk about it, it's basically the same thing. My point was that if they just showed a weepy drunk Will and Belle comforting him, it's not as exciting as teasing it before giving an "explanation".

      Besides, I don't find an "explanation" to be necessary. Will is separated from Ana. We don't know under what circumstances, so it's not unreasonable for him to be "dating" Belle.

      Not every relationship is an epic romance, ya know? XD

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    • Yeah, I'm not one for the ships and romances of the show. However, Will desperately searching for ways to be with Ana or a map or way to get back and Belle weeping over Rumple and then randomly together. It would lead to questions of how and why. It's just that quite literal narrative gap which leaves us with questions. We would like to know a little about what went on during the six weeks. If we see Robin and Marian in New York we can at least have mentions of what happen during the six weeks and I would be satisfied.

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    • I mean, of course we want to see XD

      However, I don't recall him "desperately searching"? (Am i forgetting something?) He was drunk in the library with a page from their story shortly after the second curse. That's understandable, to me, just like Belle weeping over having to banish her husband.

      Of course, now it's nearly two months later XD If Belle and Will bonded in the library (which seems likely, imo) then it's not a strange leap that they might be romantically involved. Now, to what "depth" that is, we just don't know. Of course, rebound relationships occur all the time, and if any two people deserve to distract themselves in that way, it's these two. :3

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    • I exaggerated that point a bit. Besides that drunk page, he was looking for a map to some hidden secret, which most would assume his way back or something. It's all reasonable to me. But the only time we seen them together was Will passed out and Belle calling. They could have foreshadowed a friendship at least.

      It's like if it was established that Emma married Walsh and had a second child with him (or was pregnant with one) during the missing year and we didn't get to see any of it. Or more reasonable if Snow was pregnant and we didn't see it during the missing year. Those are some extremes but I guess you'll get the point. I'm sure all we have to do is wait and see before judging a single scene in an episode.

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    • This whole discussion we're having about it is exactly why they doe these things this way, tho¬†:D We get all excited and up in arms and debate endlessly over a 20 second scene-- it gets us to watch next week¬†:D

      There are two ways to create excitement in a narrative, foreshadowing (which they do in spades on this show) and teasing. I guess I'm just one of the few people who enjoy the teasing XD

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    • I know some people are upset. It was a bit of a surprise but then again someone leaked pictures of Will and Belle holding hands for future episodes and so that was a giveaway. But tbh, Rumple sort of deserves that. And if anything I think the whole Belle/Will situation is meant to truly test him. I don't think it is their (Belle and Will) motive but the writer's motive. If Rumple will use dark measures to obtain Belle's love or if he will walk the full 500 miles and earn his happy ending. I honestly think he needs to accept that he really really screwed up and has a lot of making up to do.

      Some people excuse his actions but I don't. When you destroy your own happy ending even if you don't think it is a happy ending or a boring one, then you don't deserve what you get. He wanted to have it all, but she didn't. She didn't want him to be all-powerful unlike Her Lacey persona. And when she found he lied she was pissed. She could have handled it different ways in terms of punishing him, instead of banishing him, but she chose that one. To keep everyone else safe.

      I am going on a huge rant, but it drives me nuts when people curse Belle out and protect Rumple or call her a tramp or something worse just because she is trying to move on. Faster than some people would.

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    • I like the idea of Belle moving on because she deserves happiness. I'm certain part of her still loves Rumple, of course, but what else is she going to do? She banished him out of town and likely thought, "This is it. That's the last time I will ever see him for as long as I'm alive." I'd much prefer a happy Belle than one that's going to mope about Rumple for the rest of her life. And I don't think it matters how long exactly it took her to move on from him. It can't be said that moving on from a past relationship is the exact same for everyone, and some can take less or more time.

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    • Some fans are specific character fans. I don't think anyone should curse Belle to misery because she moved on and cast him out. Everyone have their own viewpoint even if its sense and morality are questionable. I some think it's the actors and their great portrayals that lead those to illogical turns. If Robert Carlyle wasn't playing Rumple and a lesser actor or slighty different direction performed it maybe there wouldn't be an outlash towards Belle. It's how Lana's portrayal of Regina is wonderful and she's portray tragedy wonderful, and some fans forget she's a mass murder, criminally active tyrant.

      I can't wait to see what the characters face and overall am happy that Belle has more screentime than one second cameos, lol.

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    • Like I said earlier, ScarletBeauty seems like a rebound relationship for both Belle and Will. They are two people just trying to help each other heal from shattering heartbreaks. As much as I love the ship name ScarletBeauty, I don't see this relationship going anywhere towards epic romance.

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    • IrPLu3V.png

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    • Totally agree ^^^ I lol'd when someone complained about Belle's lack of screentime, and they respond with #keepwatching and "Well, she had a centric" (and then rarely seen again, lol).

      Smart business move to pair them, just anger-bait for rabid fans.

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
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