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  • If Zelena is trying to time travel, one of the laws of magic is that you can't change the past. What I thought was interesting is how they never tried to do this, not even in Wonderland. I think that Zelena can only change the past with her curse in ways its already been changed, or she is predetermined to change certain things in the past which causes the current timeline. Look at the twister. It is green, very similar to Zelena's magic. Therefore, I think that Zelena goes back in time, fails with her original plan, and ends up creating the twister which sends the baby version of herself to Oz. Thoughts?

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    • I think you might be on to something.

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    • That actually sounds very possible!

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    • Kind of like Final Fantasy VIII, in which the main villain time-travels to the past to avoid death but in doing so causes the events that eventually lead to her own downfall? That would be cool! And the best way to pull out the time travel thing without it going out of hand and becoming too paradoxical: anything that happened was already influenced by Zelena's attempted, all along.

      It would also be consistent with the way Rumple sees the future: certain things are written and there's no escaping them, which means some things in the future cannot really change, no matter what you do.

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    • GothicNarcissus wrote: Kind of like Final Fantasy VIII, in which the main villain time-travels to the past to avoid death but in doing so causes the events that eventually lead to her own downfall? That would be cool! And the best way to pull out the time travel thing without it going out of hand and becoming too paradoxical: anything that happened was already influenced by Zelena's attempted, all along.

      It would also be consistent with the way Rumple sees the future: certain things are written and there's no escaping them, which means some things in the future cannot really change, no matter what you do.

      Like when she said he would leave his son fatherless, he took that as dying on the battlefield, but it didn't mean that.

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    • I thought it was the baby-Zelena that created the twister. She seemed pretty upset when Cora abandoned her, maybe her powers just spiralled out of control.

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    • Toma Cre wrote:
      I thought it was the baby-Zelena that create the twister. She seemed pretty upset when Cora abandoned her, maybe her powers just spiralled out of control.

      I thought the same thing because she later moved a tree after arriving in Oz so she has already got her magical powers.

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    • I like that theory! It's a way to get out of the situation they're in. Here's what i don't really understand: if Zelena turns back time she won't be immune to it and she'll become a baby again. How does she plan to kill a full grown woman as a little baby? That might be why she needs Snow White's baby. She might want to switch herself out for the baby...if they take the baby back in time won't she just not exsist? My god this is confusing!

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    • I feel like maybe the tornado itself was time traveling. Like instead of Zelena getting what she wants, someone else goes back in time and, instead of leaving her to die, whisked her to oz to save her life. Just a theory

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    • Maybe she just needs someone from Eva's bloodline, in order to complete her plan. And particularly, someone who has yet to live yet. She can't take Henry with her, or Emma, or Snow, which is why she is taking Snow and Charming's second child with her.

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    • Toma Cre and Gusey1397, my computed won't let me kudo your messages, but I think you're right.

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    • What I dont understand is that, how could Zelena get her power even before Cora got trained by Rumpel?

      So does it mean magical traits are just a gene?

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    • In  3x17, it was revealed that if you give into your emotions (or something like that) then you would be able to use magic like Emma did. It might be inherited as both Regina and Cora also use magic they just hadn't learnt how to control/use it.

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    • I hope they're going to explain it somehow, not just leave it like that because the plot needs it.

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    • I don't think that a baby would just randomly stumble upon the power to travel across worlds, something Rumple tried to do for hundreds of years. However, adult Zelena, according to Rumple, could be powerful enough to cause a twister that travels across lands.

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    • That would be an interesting twist.

      Although, arguably, they literally reached back in time to get the poison apple in season one, even though it conflicts with everything they've said now and in OUATIW about time travel and changing the past.

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    • But laws can be broken, it just extremely hard.

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    • In that one episode in the first season where Regina could only pick up one particular item, there were tons of choices. Say she grabbed Daniel's heart from Cora, before she crushed it. Then in present time, had it with her and commanded him to go to her. What would happen then?

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    • Dan fox, i dont think she changed the past...i think she duplicated the apple...

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    • I'm wondering, could it be that whatever caused the spoiled Princess Eva to turn into the wise Queen Eva was Zelena's interference with the past?

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    • The Blue Fairy was Eva's mentor. But the cicrcumstances of their training and such, remain unknown at the moment.

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    • Assuming there was "training" at all, and not just the fairy helping her once or something XD

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    • Johanna mentioned it to Snow in the episode "The Queen is Dead." 

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      Assuming there was "training" at all, and not just the fairy helping her once or something XD

      And that it wasn't Cora tricking her, or Johanna, into believing that.

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    • Dan Fox wrote: Johanna mentioned it to Snow in the episode "The Queen is Dead." 

      doesn't change my point. "mentor" =/= "training". It can be a lot of things.

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    • If baby Zelena summoned the tornado from raw emotion, I am surprised it didn't send her to Neverland, the land of abandoned children, instead of Oz.

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    • Maybe Cyclones only lead to Oz for some unknown reason. I honestly think it would be fun to take a cyclone to Oz, rather than being taken by a demonic shadow to Neverland where I can't leave without Pan's permission.

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    • Stonicus wrote: If baby Zelena summoned the tornado from raw emotion, I am surprised it didn't send her to Neverland, the land of abandoned children, instead of Oz.

      In Neverland you never grow up, so she would be a baby forever and need constant care. Plus Pan sent Wendy away because he wanted another boys and there are no lost girls.

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    • I think that like Final Fantasy 8, Zelena traveled back in time into her infantile self. Her mind could process the anger that she "failed" in her time travel to which she as a baby cried. That raw emotion as well as magical backing could have cause her to make the tornado. Zelena might have thought about happier times when she was a little girl back in Oz and thus what sent her to Oz in the first place. Again this is 100% speculation. There are no facts that suport this.

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    • I just thought of something here, if Zelena went back in time to kill Eva then Snow would have never been born and Snow's baby which she needs to cast this curse would not have been born either, so I don't think Zelena wants to kill Eva 

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    • Maybe that is the reason why she needs the baby. Because if she wants to accomplish travelling through time, and wants to succeed in killing Eva, then she might need someone (the baby) to prevent a paradox or something, as the baby actually shouldn't exist but does because she takesit with her?

      Also what if the new baby also has a gift for magic and immediately throws Zelena away by moving its hand.

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    • Or maybe she wants to change Cora and not Eva. How do we know that Zelena knows what Eva did to Cora, unless I missed something. She might go back in time to tell Cora to keep baby Zelena.

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    • Anubis16 wrote:
      I just thought of something here, if Zelena went back in time to kill Eva then Snow would have never been born and Snow's baby which she needs to cast this curse would not have been born either, so I don't think Zelena wants to kill Eva 


      Almost anything Zelena does will create a paradox of some kind. If she wants to stop Regina from being born (which like Snow says, would probably happen if Eva is killed), then Regina's heart wouldn't exist to be an ingredient in her spell either. Or more generally, if Zelena changes the past so that she gets everything that she ever wanted then why would she have the motivation to cast the time-travel spell in the first place?

      Maybe the spell itself will ensure its own existence throughout all possible timelines once its been cast so it doesn't matter how it originates. I mean it is magic after all...

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    • I think that seems likely, it also sounds a lot like Lost. 

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    • Toma Cre wrote:
      Almost anything Zelena does will create a paradox of some kind. If she wants to stop Regina from being born (which like Snow says, would probably happen if Eva is killed), then Regina's heart wouldn't exist to be an ingredient in her spell either. Or more generally, if Zelena changes the past so that she gets everything that she ever wanted then why would she have the motivation to cast the time-travel spell in the first place?


      Classic Grandfather Paradox

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    • Stonicus wrote:

      Toma Cre wrote:
      Almost anything Zelena does will create a paradox of some kind. If she wants to stop Regina from being born (which like Snow says, would probably happen if Eva is killed), then Regina's heart wouldn't exist to be an ingredient in her spell either. Or more generally, if Zelena changes the past so that she gets everything that she ever wanted then why would she have the motivation to cast the time-travel spell in the first place?


      Classic Grandfather Paradox

      Looked it up. Explains a lot. Seems like that's how we have an alive Emma in the EF

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    • I think it might make an interesting moral dilemma for Emma, if Zelena succeeds in travelling to the past and killing Eva. Suppose somehow Emma escapes being erased from history due to her being the Saviour but Snow, Henry and Regina were never born.

      Assume the curse didn't happen in the new timeline because Regina was not there to cast it (and Zelena died in the finale). If Emma tries to "fix" the timeline, she will be morally responsible for the entire EF population being devastated by the curse (not to mention all the lives Regina killed while she was still evil); but if she does not do anything, Henry and Snow are lost to her forever.

      So Emma would have to become a villian in order to save her family.

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    • Toma Cre wrote:
      I think it might make an interesting moral dilemma for Emma, if Zelena succeeds in travelling to the past and killing Eva. Suppose somehow Emma escapes being erased from history due to her being the Saviour but Snow, Henry and Regina were never born.

      Assume the curse didn't happen in the new timeline because Regina was not there to cast it (and Zelena died in the finale). If Emma tries to "fix" the timeline, she will be morally responsible for the entire EF population being devastated by the curse (not to mention all the lives Regina killed while she was still evil); but if she does not do anything, Henry and Snow are lost to her forever.

      So Emma would have to become a villian in order to save her family.

      OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET

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    • Toma Cre wrote:
      I think it might make an interesting moral dilemma for Emma, if Zelena succeeds in travelling to the past and killing Eva. Suppose somehow Emma escapes being erased from history due to her being the Saviour but Snow, Henry and Regina were never born.

      Assume the curse didn't happen in the new timeline because Regina was not there to cast it (and Zelena died in the finale). If Emma tries to "fix" the timeline, she will be morally responsible for the entire EF population being devastated by the curse (not to mention all the lives Regina killed while she was still evil); but if she does not do anything, Henry and Snow are lost to her forever.

      So Emma would have to become a villian in order to save her family.

      It depends on your point of view. From present day EF's point of view, she wouldn't be a villain because even all the evil Regina did including her curse brought something good, or at least some growth, to everyone. And so did Snow. So, even if it meant to bring back a tyrant and the curse, she would make things right for everybody, not only for her family.

      From alternate EF yes, she would be a villain because she would potentially distrupt new happy endings and stuff. But most of the people she knew and loved wouldn't be even there – Red, just to mention one. And who knows what Rumple would do in order to get to the LWM, so that could turn into more bloodshed and darkness in the EF, so maybe she would do good after all.

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    • What do you guys think of this: Cyclones are some sort of magic that can't be controlled. They just come and go between different realms. So this could mean that no one was responsible for creating the cyclone. It just happened to come to the place where Zelena was left behind. This could also explain how Dorothy came to Oz. That wasn't someone too.

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    • Dr. Kangaroo wrote:
      What do you guys think of this: Cyclones are some sort of magic that can't be controlled. They just come and go between different realms. So this could mean that no one was responsible for creating the cyclone. It just happened to come to the place where Zelena was left behind. This could also explain how Dorothy came to Oz. That wasn't someone too.

      The only problem with that is how could a magical cyclone brought Dorothy to Kansas if our world is supposed to be without magic

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    • Anubis16 wrote:
      Dr. Kangaroo wrote:
      What do you guys think of this: Cyclones are some sort of magic that can't be controlled. They just come and go between different realms. So this could mean that no one was responsible for creating the cyclone. It just happened to come to the place where Zelena was left behind. This could also explain how Dorothy came to Oz. That wasn't someone too.
      The only problem with that is how could a magical cyclone brought Dorothy to Kansas if our world is supposed to be without magic

      Good point. Hadn't thought about that. I just really want to know how those things work...XD Cora couldn't have done it because she didn't learn magic yet...

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    • Anubis16 wrote:
      Dr. Kangaroo wrote:
      What do you guys think of this: Cyclones are some sort of magic that can't be controlled. They just come and go between different realms. So this could mean that no one was responsible for creating the cyclone. It just happened to come to the place where Zelena was left behind. This could also explain how Dorothy came to Oz. That wasn't someone too.
      The only problem with that is how could a magical cyclone brought Dorothy to Kansas if our world is supposed to be without magic

      However, if our world is without magic, that leaves a little explaining to do.  Specifically, the Dragon.  He appeared in our world before the original curse was broken (though not necessarily before the original curse was cast).  And he sure appeared to have magic, as well as a bit of knowledge of EF lore (knowing that August was actually Pinnochio).

      And there is also the Shadow appearing to Wendy, Bae, John, and Michael, LONG before the curse was cast.  And come to think of it, the simple fact that a magical bean was able to transport Bea from the EF to the LWM.

      And then there is the Cyclone that brought Dorothy to Oz (though that could be up for interpretation, as there is nothing canonical regarding the fact the Dorothy is from the LWM).

      If there is no magic, I would not think that any of these would be possible.  I would say that the LWM has magic, just like other worlds, but the magic is weak and dorment.  It appears somewhat randomly in more concentrated forms.  And probably will greatly increase with Rumples bringing Magic, and Snow's curse.

      On a side note,I wonder if the city boundary problem exists with hers.  I would think not, since part of the reason they were coming back was to get back to Emma.  That might lead to some interesting stories...

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Anubis16 wrote:
      Dr. Kangaroo wrote:
      What do you guys think of this: Cyclones are some sort of magic that can't be controlled. They just come and go between different realms. So this could mean that no one was responsible for creating the cyclone. It just happened to come to the place where Zelena was left behind. This could also explain how Dorothy came to Oz. That wasn't someone too.
      The only problem with that is how could a magical cyclone brought Dorothy to Kansas if our world is supposed to be without magic
      However, if our world is without magic, that leaves a little explaining to do.  Specifically, the Dragon.  He appeared in our world before the original curse was broken (though not necessarily before the original curse was cast).  And he sure appeared to have magic, as well as a bit of knowledge of EF lore (knowing that August was actually Pinnochio).

      And there is also the Shadow appearing to Wendy, Bae, John, and Michael, LONG before the curse was cast.  And come to think of it, the simple fact that a magical bean was able to transport Bea from the EF to the LWM.

      And then there is the Cyclone that brought Dorothy to Oz (though that could be up for interpretation, as there is nothing canonical regarding the fact the Dorothy is from the LWM).

      If there is no magic, I would not think that any of these would be possible.  I would say that the LWM has magic, just like other worlds, but the magic is weak and dorment.  It appears somewhat randomly in more concentrated forms.  And probably will greatly increase with Rumples bringing Magic, and Snow's curse.

      On a side note,I wonder if the city boundary problem exists with hers.  I would think not, since part of the reason they were coming back was to get back to Emma.  That might lead to some interesting stories...

      You're right, sorry, but I think Dorothy is from the Land Without Magic because when Jefferson told Rumple tha tthe slippers were moved to another land he said that he needed the slippers to go to this land

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    • I think the idea is more that the LWM has no magic native to it. All of your examples came from other worlds :)

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:

      On a side note,I wonder if the city boundary problem exists with hers.  I would think not, since part of the reason they were coming back was to get back to Emma.  That might lead to some interesting stories...

      Yes... more things like Rumple arguing with TSA agents would be great. Regina dealing with a society where snark can't get you everything... Emma explaining how things work to her parents... Robin Hood learning the consequences of stealing... the possibilities are endless. And think of all the books Belle would have access to!

      Also, I would love if they could go to Disney and see how they are percieved (or just watch the movies).

      On a more serious note, being in Emma's world could lead to some good character developement with her parents. 

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    • AB3475 wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:

      On a side note,I wonder if the city boundary problem exists with hers.  I would think not, since part of the reason they were coming back was to get back to Emma.  That might lead to some interesting stories...

      Yes... more things like Rumple arguing with TSA agents would be great. Regina dealing with a society where snark can't get you everything... Emma explaining how things work to her parents... Robin Hood learning the consequences of stealing... the possibilities are endless. And think of all the books Belle would have access to!

      Also, I would love if they could go to Disney and see how they are percieved (or just watch the movies).

      On a more serious note, being in Emma's world could lead to some good character developement with her parents. 

      Which world do you think is worse then I mean at least the Land Without Magic doesn't have werewolves or trolls or evil sorcerers etc.

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    • Anubis16 wrote:

      Which world do you think is worse then I mean at least the Land Without Magic doesn't have werewolves or trolls or evil sorcerers etc.

      No... but it has muggers, bullies, terrorists, maniacs, and a strict social heirarchy. To make it in this world you need something, a general sense of the world, that a lot of FTL characters don't have... could be interesting to watch.

      As for which is worse.. Generally it would be whichever I/other person is in. That whole "Grass is greener" thing.

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    • There's always a drive to go home. The Enchanted forest is (most of) the characters' home. Usually the argument I see for staying in the LWM is things like TV and cellphones and other technology... is that stuff really that great? XD

      But one can always create a new home, find a new place to belong.

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    • I still find it funny that nobody complained about lacking modern stuff when Regina undid the Curse and send them all back, but I get it's part of what "undoing" the curse does. I'm sure they still remember how to drive or navigate on the internet, but perhaps them going back to fully being their EF counterparts instead of being both, that makes them not miss the stuff they were never supposed to even learn about XD

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    • I think that Snow, and to a lesser extent David, would survive just fine in the LWM outside of Storybrooke, as would Belle and the Dwarves.  Their characters don't rely on magic like Rumple and Regina do, so they would not be tempted to use it (or would not use it and cause mass mayhem).

      And while I would NOT want to see the CGI involved (given how poor it can be at times), I think it would be fun if Archie, Tink, and some of the other EF characters can assume their EF froms in SB. Maybe they could have a shapeshift ability to switch back and forth.

      As for the TSA and Rumple, I would LOVE to see that encounter, that could be funny one more than one level.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      However, if our world is without magic, that leaves a little explaining to do.  Specifically, the Dragon.  He appeared in our world before the original curse was broken (though not necessarily before the original curse was cast).  And he sure appeared to have magic, as well as a bit of knowledge of EF lore (knowing that August was actually Pinnochio).

      And there is also the Shadow appearing to Wendy, Bae, John, and Michael, LONG before the curse was cast.  And come to think of it, the simple fact that a magical bean was able to transport Bea from the EF to the LWM.

      And then there is the Cyclone that brought Dorothy to Oz (though that could be up for interpretation, as there is nothing canonical regarding the fact the Dorothy is from the LWM).

      If there is no magic, I would not think that any of these would be possible.  I would say that the LWM has magic, just like other worlds, but the magic is weak and dorment.  It appears somewhat randomly in more concentrated forms.  And probably will greatly increase with Rumples bringing Magic, and Snow's curse.

      The way I see it is that LWM has no magic at all, but magic can be brought here.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:

      As for the TSA and Rumple, I would LOVE to see that encounter, that could be funny on more than one level.

      We already saw that in Season 2 when they went to New York. I would love to see more like it. The same thing again could get old.

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    • AB3475 wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:

      As for the TSA and Rumple, I would LOVE to see that encounter, that could be funny on more than one level.

      We already saw that in Season 2 when they went to New York. I would love to see more like it. The same thing again could get old.

      We saw a powerless Rumple dealing with TSA, and getting just as frustrated (probably more so) than we do.  What I want is a fully powered, self-controlled Rumple.  I can just imagine what he could do to completely frustrate them without having to resort to turning them into snails and squishing them.  (Take what he did with the Betamax in the Sheriff's office and magnify it).

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      AB3475 wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:

      As for the TSA and Rumple, I would LOVE to see that encounter, that could be funny on more than one level.

      We already saw that in Season 2 when they went to New York. I would love to see more like it. The same thing again could get old.
      We saw a powerless Rumple dealing with TSA, and getting just as frustrated (probably more so) than we do.  What I want is a fully powered, self-controlled Rumple.  I can just imagine what he could do to completely frustrate them without having to resort to turning them into snails and squishing them.  (Take what he did with the Betamax in the Sheriff's office and magnify it).

      Yeah that wouldl be hilarious

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
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