FANDOM


  • Did you enjoy the episode?

    What were your favorite parts?

    Are you exicted for the tone the premiere set?

    The list goes on.... feel free to discuss.

      Preparing Editor Spell
    • Overall, I thought it was very strong. I don't have much time to type, so I'll just copy/paste what I said on another site:



      LOVED:
      Henry's birth. It just makes Emma's character so much more tragic.
      Snow punching Regina and FINALLY calling her out for ruining her life.
      Hook and Emma's drink to Neal. I don't like Captain Swan, but I do like their friendship.
      All of Neal's scenes.
      All of Henry
      Tamara's death
      Greg's shadow getting ripped out (and that it WASN'T Regina that harmed him. After all she's done, the thought of her killing him made me ill)
      "I will NOT be capsized by FISH!" - Charming.

      DISLIKED:
      Emma blaming Snow for Henry being kidnapped. REALLY?!
      Regina. All of Regina's lines.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • DAYEM! That was some good episodeage. I guess I'll go by the previous reviewers method with this.

      Loved: Snow VS Regina- SMACKDOWN; this was just SO well done. I loved that Regina resorted to punching her because she can't use magic on her because then everyone would be like "screw you bitch gtho the boat". But honestly, I actually think Regina has a kind of mother bear thing with Snow. Like she hate hate hate hates her... but can't actually bring herself to kill her anymore because well I dunno just cos.

      NEAL- OMG I was waiting for this to happen. I'm just like "Where the hell is Neal? I want me some Nealage." And he showed up.
      Peter Pan, Evil Man- I weren't expecting to actually see Peter Pan himself so I'm rather interested to see where his story goes.
      Greg's Death- Damn this gave me chills just the way the shadow ripped his shadow out like it was nobody's business.
      Everybody actually seeming to co-operate for a bit- WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
      To my disgust, Hook- I approve of him and Emma having a fling. But they will NEVER be endgame.
      Regina- "Now can I kill her?" Everyone else- "NO!" Just made me fricken day.
      SO MUCH MORE!

      Hated: The New Robin Hood- Sorry but I am a big Tom Ellis fan and this guy I just can't fangirl over... I just can't.

      Rumple killing Tamara- Now I hate Tamara with a fiery passion but to be disgust when she was begging for her life I actually thought "You know what, she's been bare brainwashed, let's give her a chance." And on top of that I really wanted the scene to go more like-

      Rumple- Alright I'll forgive you.

      Tamara- Really?

      Rumple- (laughs) FUCK NO!

      Anyone else feel that way? No? Just me? Wow.

      Tamara and Greg dying in general- I hate both of these 2 but just the fact they were just growing into their villain shoes only to be killed like that just seemed a bit anticlimactic to me.
      The home office are teenagers- I'm just not happy about this. It doesn't fit to me.
      Neal/Mulan potential- I'm gonna stop ya right there, no. Ah da da da- no.

      Now I realise my likes to dislikes ratio is about even but the likes is without all the other stuff I love like Phillip and Emma being badass and mermaids and there's just so much to love. Overall though were I to rate this episode (and you know I have to) I would give it 8.5/10. Thank you and goodnight.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • “Bring back the mermaid!”
      “Then what? You'll win her over with your rainbow kisses and unicorn stickers?”

      That's why I love Regina so much! Oh, and Emma's finally starting to make some sense.

      Anyways, it was little more than an appetiser. Seriously, for most of Season 2 we got used to a million things happening in an episode's time, and this time nothing substantial happened in 40 minutes. I also don't know how to feel about Tamara and Greg's death: I hated them so much it felt odd to see them down so quickly and painlessly.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • MagicisComing wrote:
      Hated: The New Robin Hood- Sorry but I am a big Tom Ellis fan and this guy I just can't fangirl over... I just can't.

      I understand that this is your opinion, but Sean Maguire is in this for the long-haul.... you might want to get used to it.

      I liked Tom Ellis as Robin Hood, last season. However, his performance now seems like nothing more than a guy wearing a costume, and just reading lines. It just seems very wooden, and one-noted. Whereas, Sean Maguire had the spunk, and charm of the Robin Hood of yesteryear.... a.l.a Errol Flynn and Cary Elwes. It was lively, and you could tell he was truly enjoying himself. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I just LOVED it. It was AMAZING. I don't need to say anything else. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Regina and all her lines were just hysterical!

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Things I loved Peter pan Death to tamara and Greg Regina Lines such as rainbow kisses Emma calling out snow and charming on their niceness The special effects

      Things that I did not love
      

      Snow calling out Regina Emma getting mad at her parents No horse opening Hook and charmings fight Robin hood talking old style No belle

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • In my opinion, this was one of the best season premieres ever.

      Regina was on fire! I loved her witty humor. "I'm out of fish food" and "filet the bitch"? Awesome, haha. And also, her observation regarding Snow's rainbow kisses and unicorn stickers made me laugh a lot.

      I felt really bad for Snow and Charming when Emma lashed out at them. I mean, it's about time she stops blaming them for everything. They're trying their best! From what I saw in the sneak peek, she'll have to embrace who she is and hopefully that also means she'll come to terms with her "abandoment". Maybe then we can see some (happy) tears and hugs :D

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Bookofspells wrote: Things that I did not love

      Snow calling out Regina Emma getting mad at her parents No horse opening Hook and charmings fight Robin hood talking old style No belle

      Sorry, butt I have to do this XD

      • Snow calling out Regina - Come on, that was AWESOME
      • Emma getting mad at her parents - it's about damn time, in my opinion, that she let some of her inner suffering out
      • No horse opening - Nah, it wouldve been tired at this point, to me.
      • Hook/Charming fight - how can you hate that!?
      • Robin Hood talking "old style" - He's Robin Hood!
      • No Belle - Well, Belle's not a main character. If she'd been in this episode, it would have felt forced.
        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I thought it was awsome. One thing I don't understand though, is it looked like something hit Emma when she jumped from the ship causing her to become unconcious.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Utter solitude wrote:

      Sorry, butt I have to do this XD

      • Snow calling out Regina - Come on, that was AWESOME
      • Emma getting mad at her parents - it's about damn time, in my opinion, that she let some of her inner suffering out
      • No horse opening - Nah, it wouldve been tired at this point, to me.
      • Hook/Charming fight - how can you hate that!?
      • Robin Hood talking "old style" - He's Robin Hood!
      • No Belle - Well, Belle's not a main character. If she'd been in this episode, it would have felt forced.

      I totally agree, with you.

      Besides, all the arguments and fist-fights on the Jolly Roger.... Robin Hood's manner of speak was one of the biggest highlights, of the premiere. The classic "old-style", was pure Errol Flynn.... and I loved it!

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Titanicman95 wrote:
      I thought it was awsome. One thing I don't understand though, is it looked like something hit Emma when she jumped from the ship causing her to become unconcious.

      Because something did. Part of the ship. Once I get to that part of the epsiode (I'm writing the recap) I'll tell you specifically what it was XD

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Titanicman95 wrote:
      I thought it was awsome. One thing I don't understand though, is it looked like something hit Emma when she jumped from the ship causing her to become unconcious.

      It was a pulley from the Jolly Roger.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:

      Besides, all the arguments and fist-fights on the Jolly Roger.... Robin Hood's manner of speak was one of the biggest highlights, of the premiere. The classic "old-style", was pure Errol Flynn.... and I loved it!

      Everything felt so.... REAL during this episode. Emma letting it out, MM and Regina going at it, Neal, Robin Hood... EVERYTHING! I loved it.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Rafadeq wrote:

      Titanicman95 wrote:
      I thought it was awsome. One thing I don't understand though, is it looked like something hit Emma when she jumped from the ship causing her to become unconcious.

      It was a pulley from the Jolly Roger.

      Did she hit it before getting into the water or did it somehow swing down and get her?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Titanicman95 wrote:

      Rafadeq wrote:

      Titanicman95 wrote:
      I thought it was awsome. One thing I don't understand though, is it looked like something hit Emma when she jumped from the ship causing her to become unconcious.
      It was a pulley from the Jolly Roger.
      Did she hit it before getting into the water or did it somehow swing down and get her?

      She dove in and I think she was trying to swim back up when the pulley broke loose and hit her on the head.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Rafadeq wrote:

      Titanicman95 wrote:

      Rafadeq wrote:

      Titanicman95 wrote:
      I thought it was awsome. One thing I don't understand though, is it looked like something hit Emma when she jumped from the ship causing her to become unconcious.
      It was a pulley from the Jolly Roger.
      Did she hit it before getting into the water or did it somehow swing down and get her?

      She dove in and I think she was trying to swim back up when the pulley broke loose and hit her on the head.

      Why was she trying to swim back if she jumped to get everyone's attention and to stop fighting?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Titanicman95 wrote:

      Rafadeq wrote:

      Titanicman95 wrote:

      Rafadeq wrote:


      Titanicman95 wrote:
      I thought it was awsome. One thing I don't understand though, is it looked like something hit Emma when she jumped from the ship causing her to become unconcious.
      It was a pulley from the Jolly Roger.
      Did she hit it before getting into the water or did it somehow swing down and get her?
      She dove in and I think she was trying to swim back up when the pulley broke loose and hit her on the head.
      Why was she trying to swim back if she jumped to get everyone's attention and to stop fighting?

      That was the only reason she jumped. She wanted to get everyone's attention so they would stop fighting. She didn't want to drown. When she jumped, she got Charming and Snow's attention and everybody stopped fighting. Considering she didn't wanna die, she tried to swim back to surface so she could ask someone to help her get back on the ship.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • oh ok

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I just finished watching it and I have ALL the thoughts!

      Awesome things: 

      1. LOVED everything about Emma with one, very small, exception. I adored Emma in the first six or so episodes of season one because she was an awesome protagonist and stuff, and then she underwent some serious decay for the remainder of the show to the point that I could not stand her for the latter half of season two—but SUDDENLY pilot Emma is back! 

      I loved that she FINALLY called out Snow and Charming for being crappy parents whose rosy-eyed fairytale ideals do not work in our world, loved that she threw their perfect-happy-ending delusions back in their faces and basically said "No, I'm my own person and I get to make the decisions about what happens to me." Which is SO MUCH BETTER than her characterless passivity in season two. And also completely, utterly correct.

      I loved that we see her doing her best to prepare herself for potential fighting and I really liked the moment she had with Hook—I don't ship them, but I think they could be great buddies.

      I loved that she figured out what was going on with the storm. I mean, it was obvious (called it as soon as the mermaid started going on about how "I'm not going to destroy you, you'll destroy yourself."), but the path from Emma thinking it was the mermaid to thinking Regina made it worse by wood'ing the mermaid to realizing that, no, it's happening because we're fighting was reasonable and followed discernible logic trails, was based on empirical evidence (more on that later), and she immediately followed up on it in a manner that was, while dangerous, the best things she could do under the circumstances. THAT is what I want from my heroes, thank you.

      I loved 99% of her rallying speech at the end—it was the perfect follow-up on her first two moments of pure, unadulterated awesome—calling out EVERYONE on how they're jeopardizing the incredibly important mission by refusing to even try to work through their messy pasts and taking charge and saying what I've been screaming through my computer screen about since the pilot, basically, which is that people do not fit neatly into "villain" boxes or "hero" boxes, and that even though they may not get along and they may not be friends, they can act like adults and WORK TOGETHER.

      The only thing I didn't like was her conclusion—no, Emma, you do not get to order people around because you're the leader, you took charge because you were the only one capable of doing so, and no, Emma, you do not get to claim that you're Henry's mother while implying that Regina isn't. (Was totally expecting her to finish with something like "I'm a mother. And you are too," because that would get Regina behind her 100% instead of "I'm his mother, and I'm the leader because I say so!" which... doesn't.)

      And finally, I loved so much that Emma didn't repeat her season one "the curse totes does not exist even though it obviously exists" mistake. She listens when Rumpel tells her that Neverland is all about imagination and then instead of blindly accepting it, she takes it into account and then as soon as she has EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that it's fact (i.e. the storm stopping), she accepts it and plans accordingly. So gooood.

      2. REGINA. LITERALLY EVERYTHING Regina did. That moment of vulnerability with Hook at the beginning, fireballing the mermaids and then ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING to try to stop the storm instead of just shouting, and then finally, finally, finally getting to duke it out with Snow (I hate Snow so much, okay, I'll get to that in a bit, but everything was worth it to see Snow get punched in the face because I've been wanting to do that since about "Snow Falls"), and then immediately joining everyone else to fish Emma out of the water even though she had the least reason to do so out of all of them, and expressing justifiable skepticism when Emma was all "I'm in charge now!" but then accepting it because Emma's right, and and and just. Regina. 

      And also "rainbow kisses and unicorn stickers" 

      rainbow kisses and unicorn stickers!!

      I just

      everything I despise about the goodie-goodie half of Snow's character summed up in a nutshell

      One thing I did wonder: When they were trying to interrogate the mermaid and Snow started screaming "We're not killers!" why on earth didn't Regina pull the "um, no, you killed my mother" card? Would have been the perfect time to call Snow out on her warped view of herself and of reality.

      Oh, yeah, and I jumped back on the Swan Queen ship. Assuming Emma doesn't backslide into her season two characterization of blah, that is. (Yeah, I know it's been confirmed as not canon. I don't care, that's what I fanfic for)

      3. Loved that Rumpel immediately showed his true colors, first with the whole "screw you guys" thing and then with heartripping Tamara. Guy's an evil psychopath. I mean, I adore him as a character, but that "oh he's REDEEMED himself because LOVE" stuff was infuriating.

      4. Pan running circles around Henry. Perfect. Also obvious—I mean, come on, of course the British kid with the pixie dust is Peter Pan—but still great. My first thought when he showed up was Peter was good and his detached shadow was evil (which would have been awesome—I adore Jekyll/Hyde type characters), but the Shadow just being a facade Peter uses because it's easier to inspire fear than belief? Hello, pop culture Machiavelli!

      5. Henry finally, finally, finally applied his fairytale knowledge to something useful. About time

      Terrible things: 

      1. Fucking Snow. I could write an essay about how much I hate her and why, but the gist is that she's an amoral, smug, egotistic little troll who likes to put herself on a pedestal of righteousness. And the thing is, if she were upfront about the amoral/smug/egotistic parts? I'd love her the same way I love Rumpel (watching villains be unrepentantly psychopathic is one of my favorite pastimes). It's the sheer hypocrisy that drives me into a frothing rage. 

      She still does not understand how to family. At all. Zero comprehension of what Emma was trying to say at the beginning of the episode, and zero signs of empathy for the daughter she claims to adore (seriously, telling her she just needs to listen to the Wisdom of Snow? Bitch, Emma's your age. Shut up.)

      Compare this to Davidjames, who at least understands what Emma is trying to say and responds with "I know, you're right, and we're here because we want to make things right." He gets that Emma is right about how much real life can suck, but he's trying to remind her that they can fight back. Snow, on the other hand, is ignoring Emma's very legitimate reasons for being upset in favor of trying to impose her strategy of blind faith with no thought about anyone but herself. 

      Then with the mermaid: I get it, okay? Snow's schtick is pacifism. Of course she's not going to advocate killing the mermaid. But did the reason for her wanting to not kill the mermaid have to be "if we kill her, her family will come and kill us?" you cannot claim to be morally pure when the only reason you don't want to kill someone is that their family will take revenge on you. A morally upright person says, "we can't kill her; killing is wrong." 

      Aaaand then the fight with Regina: I actually love that Snow threw the first punch. It's so in-character for Snow to resort to hitting to express her feelings (Gepetto, anyone?), and then I love that Regina's initial response is "is that the best you can do?" (<3) and she only gets violent when Snow starts going on about Regina having ruined her life. So perfect. Which does not change the fact that I raged through the entirety of everything Snow said. 

      2. What the hell was up with the foley in this episode?! It's never been this bad before—was the foley artist so drunk they had to resort to all those horrible, horrible stock sounds? Just, ick. At least the score was its usual amazingness.

      3. Everything about the way Greg and Tamara were handled. Season two was really unclear about whether they were supposed to be scientists or part of a weird anti-magic cult—they started off science-y and then quickly degenerated to cult, and then this whole "take everything on blind faith" made it even murkier. And then they were unceremoniously slaughtered. Twice, in Tamara's case. As if it wasn't already obvious enough that they were just a plot device.

      4. Wait, didn't Phillip get his soul eaten...? And if plot happened off screen, I'm going to be mad and make angryfaces at my computer screen, because that's threatening, right? (On the other hand, maybe this means I'll get my Philip/Aurora/Mulan mènage á trois? #wishfulthinking) 

      On the whole:



      Barring the foley strangeness and the anticlimax with Greg and Tamara, phenomenal episode (Snow does not count toward the detriment of my opinion on the episode's good-ness because at this point just seeing her face fills me with rage). 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • And finally, I loved so much that Emma didn't repeat her season one "the curse totes does not exist even though it obviously exists" mistake. She listens when Rumpel tells her that Neverland is all about imagination and then instead of blindly accepting it, she takes it into account and then as soon as she has EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that it's fact (i.e. the storm stopping), she accepts it and plans accordingly. So gooood.

      <snip>

      3. Loved that Rumpel immediately showed his true colors, first with the whole "screw you guys" thing and then with heartripping Tamara. Guy's an evil psychopath. I mean, I adore him as a character, but that "oh he's REDEEMED himself because LOVE" stuff was infuriating.

      <snip>

      1. Fucking Snow. I could write an essay about how much I hate her and why, but the gist is that she's an amoral, smug, egotistic little troll who likes to put herself on a pedestal of righteousness. And the thing is, if she were upfront about the amoral/smug/egotistic parts? I'd love her the same way I love Rumpel (watching villains be unrepentantly psychopathic is one of my favorite pastimes). It's the sheer hypocrisy that drives me into a frothing rage. 

      She still does not understand how to family. At all. Zero comprehension of what Emma was trying to say at the beginning of the episode, and zero signs of empathy for the daughter she claims to adore (seriously, telling her she just needs to listen to the Wisdom of Snow? Bitch, Emma's your age. Shut up.)

      Compare this to Davidjames, who at least understands what Emma is trying to say and responds with "I know, you're right, and we're here because we want to make things right." He gets that Emma is right about how much real life can suck, but he's trying to remind her that they can fight back. Snow, on the other hand, is ignoring Emma's very legitimate reasons for being upset in favor of trying to impose her strategy of blind faith with no thought about anyone but herself. 

      Then with the mermaid: I get it, okay? Snow's schtick is pacifism. Of course she's not going to advocate killing the mermaid. But did the reason for her wanting to not kill the mermaid have to be "if we kill her, her family will come and kill us?" you cannot claim to be morally pure when the only reason you don't want to kill someone is that their family will take revenge on you. A morally upright person says, "we can't kill her; killing is wrong." 

      Aaaand then the fight with Regina: I actually love that Snow threw the first punch. It's so in-character for Snow to resort to hitting to express her feelings (Gepetto, anyone?), and then I love that Regina's initial response is "is that the best you can do?" (<3) and she only gets violent when Snow starts going on about Regina having ruined her life. So perfect. Which does not change the fact that I raged through the entirety of everything Snow said. 

      This. 100 and 10% this. You summed up my feelings and Rumpel and Snow perfectly. I hate Snow's goody-two-shoes glurge soooo much. I just want to punch her in the face. I nearly put my fist through the TV when she got all emo over killing Cora... Snow turned trolls in roaches and shot people with arrows, ffs! Stop getting all whiney over defending your family. And I love Rumpel best when he's at his worst, being his good old Chaotic Evil self. Rumpel is the epitome of magnificent bastards and I miss his plotting.

      And OMG yes on the empirical evidence thing. I get so tired of the "faith faith faith let's take everything on faith" thing and people just beliving what they hear without good reason to. Just examples, Rumpelstiltskin took it on faith that the Evil Queen told the truth about Belle dying, Regina took it on faith that her mother wanted the Dark One's dagger to get Henry back, Snow actually believes Regina and Cora will spare Johanna, etc etc all without stopping to think, to ponder maybe if the other person is lying and to ask for evidence. At least we got a bit  of the consequences of blind faith with the whole "home office" thing. I hope they continue with Emma updating her beliefs as evidence is presented, but given that Goldumple gave a speech about faith and taking leaps of, I'm not sure how it will play out.

      Did anyone else notice Henry was born at 8:15? And why did the lights flicker when Emma screamed... magic? Though it's supposed to be a land without magic.... I'm glad they didn't do the stereotypical "Mother holds baby, changes mind, nurse/doctor insists the baby go for adoption" thing.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • TNOandXadric wrote:

      Terrible things: 

      1. Then with the mermaid: I get it, okay? Snow's schtick is pacifism. Of course she's not going to advocate killing the mermaid. But did the reason for her wanting to not kill the mermaid have to be "if we kill her, her family will come and kill us?" you cannot claim to be morally pure when the only reason you don't want to kill someone is that their family will take revenge on you. A morally upright person says, "we can't kill her; killing is wrong." 

      4. Wait, didn't Philip get his soul eaten...? And if plot happened off screen, I'm going to be mad and make angryfaces at my computer screen, because that's threatening, right? 

      1. Actually, the mermaid-thing will be explained in 3.06. There is a legitimate reason, Mary Margaret was against killing the mermaid.... and it has nothing to do with revenge.

      4. His name is spelled Phillip, with two "L's". Aurora hinted, to how she and Mulan retrieved Prince Phillip's soul. Were you not paying attention?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Velox Raptor:

      I think the whole faith vs. observation thing was what bothered me most about season two!Emma—and, in a different way, late season one!Emma—because in one she continues to REFUSE to believe in the curse even after it becomes excruciatingly obvious that it exists, and then in two she just... follows the lead of whatever character she happens to be working with, for the most part. And I'm so, so glad that that got addressed in this episode in the way that it did! Fingers crossed that the trend continues.

      I'm super interested to see where the writers go with the Rumpel-by-himself vs. the cohort-working-together dynamic, especially considering the parallels between what Rumpel wanted Emma to do (have blind faith in his word) and what happened to Greg and Tamara as a direct result of their unquestioning devotion to their Home Office. When Rumpel first bitched Emma out for not just believing, I figured we were going to have to endure some twisted message about how you should just believe because.

      Then the storm happened, and it happened because everyone was fighting, and as soon as Emma found a way to unify them again, they were fine (sans the Jolly Roger, poor baby). The last we see of them is them making a pact to put aside their differences for the time being and focus on the end goal, then setting off to do just that. I think that must be a deliberate parallel to Rumpel's journey throughout the episode: he starts off confident and successful, finding more information about Henry's whereabouts by working on his own, and then the last we see of him, he's crumpled on the ground sobbing over a child's toy. 

      Which seems more like juxtaposing Rumpel's blind faith in how Neverland works against Emma's more effective exploration of how the rules work there. So excited to see where this leads.

      And word on the no cliche holding-the-baby scene. I think it was a wise choice on Emma's part—she knew she had to give Henry up because (a) she was in jail and (b) she wasn't in a place where she could be a good mother, and she wanted to make it as painless for herself as possible by not holding him and the (very real) flood of hormones that being close to her newborn baby would entail (whether she thought about it in those terms or just "I cannot get attached to this baby because he needs an actual family, which I can't provide" does not matter so much).

      ChocolatEyes:

      1. 3.01 Mary Margaret, on killing the mermaid: "You kill her, and her kind have a personal vendetta against us."

      That is, word-for-word, what she says—I just rewatched that part to make sure. It's right after Regina says "Now may I resume killing her?"

      It absolutely had everything to do with revenge. I do not care if she comes up with some more PC justification in later episodes: The fact of the matter is that, when it happened, her thoughts were solely on the potential danger to herself, Charming, and Emma. It is exactly like how she was fine with manipulating Regina into causing her own mother's death and only felt guilty after the fact—and then dealt with that guilt by being a useless lump, trying to commit suicide via Regina (I mean, seriously?! How low can you get?) and finally running around telling everyone that "that wasn't me" before promptly forgetting about the whole thing.

      4. My mistake on the spelling. Fixed it. (I know a real life Philip who spells it with just one L, so that's how it's spelled in my head).

      The thing is, while I understand that Aurora and Mulan spent their offscreen time trying to restore Phillip's soul, I'm upset that what must have been a crazy awesome adventure just... happened in the meanwhile and SUDDENLY PHILLIP'S BACK. Would have liked to actually see them looking for his soul, you know? Hopefully it'll be explained in flashbacks?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Three things I loved the most was Peter Pan, Greg and Tamara's deaths and Neal's reference to Mulan's movie. It was all great though. I loved every minute. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Hook and his outrageous flirting. Even when heated argument going on, Emma getting ready to be leader, he dives in, in front of her father, Actually I quite fancy you and the way he says it, that and the the smirk of appreciation when he ges to join her gang were awesome to me. David acting protective Dad for Emma was sweet and funny too. MM and David has so much to figure out trying to be parents.

      The enitre ship scene was imo good, Regina being non chalantly magical and careless, without giving things much thought and then the entire fight, was so very human. Even David and Hook's comical fight in it.

      Rumple back being TDO. I wonder though, after he gets to Henry, will he kill him?

      I disliked the way Henry totally utterly believed pan and fell into his trap . This is not the Henry. but maybe we will see Henry having some of his Hero moments as well. I wish Auror and Philip were there with Neal too. Looking forward for some more Neal scenes, His character needs loads of growing up to do.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I'd rather have Snow's ability to feel emotions than Regina's complete delusions and narcisissm that makes people want to throw me overboard.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Well, it was not particularly a strong episode personally, but again my mind was somewhere else when watching it. So most likely it affects my judgement as my mind was not focused on it.

      Things I like:

      1. Feisty mermaids! I am interested how these mermaids would (or not) relate to Ariel story arch. I am envisioning that Ariel would be one of the nice mermaid. I am glad that they got the ideas that mermaids are evil from Pirates of Carribean. I am also glad that they don't make the mermaids look scary when they are angry like in PoC! I like awesome and dark twist. For some odd reason, I would like to see how Ariel would try to protect Prince Eric as he felt into the ship from being eaten by the other mermaids. 

      2. I think their selection for the actor who plays Peter Pan is dead on! And I like the twist how Peter and the Lost Boys are mean. It's an awesome and dark twist! IN overall, I think they picked all good actors for the Peter Pan arc. (We want the Darlings back! They are so adorable!!!!!)

      3. Regina with her fire balls rocks!


      Things I don't like:

      1. I was still hoping that the Darlings are connected to the Headquarters. I really want Wendy to be the initial founder of the group ever since the shadow stole Bae away from them, and then Wendy and her brother hated the magic so much (per what Bae said to her "Magic is scary") that they found the Headquarters. OH well, I am not the producer.. :P

      2. Tamara and Greg died too fast. 

      3. The explanation of the headquarter is too simple. Again I was hoping that the Headquarter is really an organization that hates magic. An organization that include various "magic killer" across different land, which include other members such as Van Helsing, whose task erasing the magic in the Land of NO Color (hence hunting after Dracula). I head this theory from somebody else!


      OH well....

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • OH and one thing that I hate / like:

      David's perfectly coifed new hairstyle. There is no normal human like us who can achieve that in real life!

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Teehee.heehee.9 wrote:
      OH and one thing that I hate / like:

      David's perfectly coifed new hairstyle. There is no normal human like us who can achieve that in real life!

      David is not a normal human, he is a Disney Prince!

      All princes have perfectly coifed hair. Did you miss Prince Phillip's luscious waves, and spit curl? Oh, and wait 'til you see Prince Eric's hair  ;)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Chocolate: That's true that they are the Princes!!

      It made me want to skin his scalp and attach it to my head since it is so perfect. (I know it sounds grotesque!) :P

      I did not really pay attention much to Prince Philip's hair. Maybe I should. And maybe in next episodes, Prince Eric's hair. 

      S

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Fluteline24 wrote:
      I'd rather have Snow's ability to feel emotions than Regina's complete delusions and narcisissm that makes people want to throw me overboard.

      ...what delusions and narcissism? 

      And: So you'd rather be a sociopath incapable of understanding basic empathy and lacking the ability to allow your own daughter the opportunity to express her very legitimate reasons for being upset, instead trying to impose your own self-proclaimed "wisdom" on her—even though she's almost thirty years old and you have, at best, known her for a year? 

      You'd rather hate so deeply that you manipulate a woman into killing her own mother—a woman who already has very real reasons for despising you—by giving her false hope that she could finally have the loving mother she's wanted for her entire life, and then immediately-but-not-soon-enough feel horribly guilty about it but refuse to deal with that guilt in a way that is healthy? You'd rather twist the knife further by demanding that the very woman you manipulated in the first place murder you—one action guaranteed to permanently destroy any chance for reconcilliation between your two families, especially since you didn't tell anyone what you were planning—instead of doing the deed yourself?

      You'd rather punch an old man who was just trying to protect his son in the face because you were justifiably angry about him robbing you of your chance to raise your daughter, but then instead of apologising insisting that you're absolved of all guilt because "that wasn't me?"

      You'd rather possess the ego capable of rationalizing away the callous murder of gods-know how many people in the overthrowing of not one but two reasonably stable governments so you could have your fairytale happy ending with your fairytale prince, but feel over-the-top guilt when you know the person who died personally?

      You'd rather be the kind of person who grows so codependent on your significant other that, when circumstances conspire to pull you apart, you intentionally destroy your ability to feel love at all because it just hurts so much and you can't handle that? You'd rather be the kind of person who keels over and tries to die when the going gets rough, instead of actually, oh, doing something to try to make it better for yourself—which, I might add, is what both Regina and Emma do literally all the time.

      Why? 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Seriously? So Snow is a socipath but Regina isn't?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I advise you to look up the actual symptoms of ASPD. Regina meets almost none of the criteria without external coaching from her mother; Snow meets enough for me to be suspicious of her, and Rumpel is inarguably one.

      Let's go through the mayo clinic list:

      • Disregard for right and wrong
      • I already discussed why I think this applies to Snow; she's morally bankrupt and determines how moral it is to hurt someone based solely on how it will effect herself and her closest loved ones (no, refusing to do something "bad" because it will make YOU bad rather than because it's wrong does not count as being "good.")
      • Regina, on the other hand, visibly struggles with this. All her life, she's been taught that good/evil moralizing is less important than power and the pursuit of power; however, she still demonstrates an understanding of the fact that she has hurt hundreds if not thousands of people, that it was wrong, and that even though nothing can make up for that, she can at least try to be better in the future. (Causing people harm and later repenting is not the same thing as hurting people because you just don't give a fuck; lifelong habits cannot be broken in a trice no more than Rome was built in a day, and some backsliding is to be expected)
      • Rumpel claims to be trying for the repentance thing, and then immediately crushes Tamara's heart when she asks for forgiveness. He never shows remorse for this or other incidents and as soon as he's out of Belle's watchful eye, he does whatever the hell he wants to. (See also: Lacey)
      • Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
      • All three do this. Snow tries to pretend it isn't deceit. Regina is doing what she was taught all her life was the only means of staying safe—every time she tried for honesty, it blew up in her face. Rumpel gleefully deceives everyone because he's addicted to making deals.
      • Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or for sheer personal pleasure
      • Snow doesn't do this, unless you count claiming moral purity as "charm." 
      • Regina uses charm or wit as tools to get what she feels she needs to survive; I don't think we've ever seen her pursue anything purely for personal pleasure. And, again, this is a taught behavior—she did not do this to, say, Daniel, and in the beginning of her relationship with Snow, she brought Snow around to her side by honestly explaining her point of view. Further, she's demonstrably making efforts to return to honesty in her relationship with Henry.
      • Rumpel absolutely does this, when he doesn't just magic his way to whatever he wants.
      • Intense egocentrism, sense of superiority and exhibitionism
      • I submit that Snow's entire worldview is based on egocentrisim and the idea that she is right because she is better. Her entire character oozes smug self-righteousness.
      • Regina has zero self-esteem. Oh, she fakes it well, but there's a reason she lets Henry walk all over her.
      • I... hope that Rumpel's narcissim is self-evident to everyone.
      • Recurring difficulties with the law
      • Skipping this one because (a) I have no idea how FTR laws work besides monarchs call all the shots based on how they feel at the moment, and (b) no one gets in trouble with the law in Storybrooke even though basically every major character blithely breaks them without a thought. 
      • Repeatedly violating the rights of others by the use of intimidation, dishonesty and misrepresentation
      • Snow does this once, with Cora. It was a shitty move, but not, by itself, a symptom of ASPD.
      • Regina does this all the time because that's what Cora trained her to do; see what I said earlier about her attempts to unlearn these kinds of habits. 
      • The entire premise of every deal Rumpel makes is he's going to screw the other party over somehow.
      • Child abuse or neglect
      • Neither Snow nor Regina abuse their children, and although Regina erred dangerously close to becoming abusive after the curse started breaking, she's taken steps to correct that.
      • Rumpel abandoned his son out of cowardice.
      • Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, impulsiveness, aggression or violence
      • Snow personally kills dozens of people on screen—probably more off as well—has twice punched someone in the face for saying something she didn't like, impulsively decided to kill Cora and followed through on that in the cruelest way possible, etc.
      • Regina has killed hundreds of people, has very little impulse control, and responds to aggression with aggression (though she is very seldom the original aggressor, and even in those cases it has been because she believes she has no other options, for example turning the mermaid into wood)
      • Anyone who is not named Baelfire or (most of the time) Belle is fair game for Rumpel's rage.
      • Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
      • I outlined above why I think that Snow lacks the ability to empathize properly. She can't even muster up an understanding of why David wants to go back to the FTR in season two. I also explained why I don't think her guilt response is valid, namely that she makes a few token efforts at absolving herself of it and then forgets the whole thing.
      • Regina is an extremely empathetic person; she has a very, very good understanding of where people are coming from (see: convincing Belle to use True Love's Kiss on Rumpel after, what, ninety seconds in Skin Deep? or her effortless manipulation of the genie?). That she chooses to use this against people does not change the fact that she has empathy in a way that a sociopath absolutely could not. (note that empathy is not the same as sympathy—empathy is the capacity to recognize what other people are feeling and understand where it comes from). She also, as I have pointed out, feels remorse for what she's done wrong.
      • Rumpel, again, very obviously could not care less what happens to other people and even if he could exercise empathy, I doubt he'd bother using it.
      • Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behaviors
      • Snow has twice consumed liquids from known-to-be-dangerous people, one of whom WAS HER ENEMY, without a thought to the consequences. The first time she lost her ability to love at all. The second time she was cursed into infertility. See also: eating that apple.
      • Regina plays it safe whenever possible. 
      • Rumpel is so powerful that there really isn't something that COULD be risky or dangerous for him, so this one doesn't really count.
      • Poor or abusive relationships
      • Snow's relationship with David isn't healthy; they can't communicate effectively with each other. That's true of lots of people who aren't ASPD, of course, but it's worth noting.
      • Regina's problems with Henry stem more from the fact that she herself was abused and she's floundering in trying to find a way of loving that isn't Cora's. Worth noting is that she has shown remarkable improvement and, prior to Emma showing up, there's nothing to suggest that she was remotely abusive or neglectful.
      • Everything about Rumpel's relationship with Neal and Belle is twisted and creepy, because he expects them to just do what he says without question.
      • Irresponsible work behavior
      • Skipping this one because it doesn't really apply to any of them.
      • Failure to learn from the negative consequences of behavior
      • Of the three, Regina is the only one who shows any kind of character growth or learning beyond "I should not get caught doing that next time."

      So, in conclusion: I don't through around labels like "sociopath" without due consideration. In my opinion, Snow is more than likely a sociopath, Rumpel certainly is, and Cora tried her damnedest to turn Regina into one and failed.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Rafadeq wrote:
      Seriously? So Snow is a socipath but Regina isn't?

      My exact thoughts... 

      I loved everything of the premiere, the three story parts, the mermaid...everything!! :) Greg and Tamara's death came a bit suddenly but maybe we're gonna see a flashback including them later this season?

        Preparing Editor Spell

    • I am very much aware of what the diagnosis is for ASPD, thank you very much.

      I completely understand why many people might not like Snow. Or even hate her, as you clearly do. I really like her as a character, but of course, I don't blindly agree with everything she does or how she acts. But calling her a sociopath is a big stretch, in my opinion. And saying that she is more likely to be one than Regina? Please.

      Don't get me wrong, I also really like Regina as a character. I don't want her gone and I think she's one of the characters who most deserves a chance at having her happy ending (one that doesn't involve another curse, hopefully). And yes, she does have her struggling moments, when she is trying to do right by her son and be a good person, but that's exactly my point. I completely disagree when you said Regina was the only one who shows any kind of character growth or learning. On the contrary! She is not trying to be good for herself. "See where good gets you?" she once asked Snow. She doesn't want to be good, she is only TRYING to be because that's what Henry wants. And the biggest proof of that is that she ALWAYS, no matter how hard or long she tries, she always reverts to what she believes is her true self, the EVIL Queen. I mean, crushing the heart of someone you supposedly have strong feelings for (Graham) just because he seems to care for another person is empathetic? Seriously? Not to mention having a gigantic safe filled with hearts of people you don't even remember who they were just because "there were so many".

      Again I have to disagree that Snow shows no regard for what's right or wrong. She does take some of her decisions based on how it will affect herself or her loved ones. But tell me, who doesn't do that? Does that make you "morally bankrupt"? I don't think so. She knew killing the mermaid was wrong and she was afraid of the repercussions if they did, but she did emphasize they were not killers. And pulling the "she killed Cora card"? At least she tried to stop it (albeit too late) and she felt horrible about it. Remorse. Something sociopaths lack, I advise you to look that up.

      Besides, you're confusing Snow's lack of ability to undertand certain things with lack of empathy. Just because she doesn't fully understand what or how Emma is feeling right now or just because she wouldn't understand why Charming wanted to move back to the Enchanted Forest doesn't mean she doesn't have the ability to empathize with her family! She even later changed her mind about the whole Enchanted Forest idea.

      Snow doesn't think she is right because she is better. Nor have I ever seen her claim she is morally pure (if you have a reference for this one, I'd love to see it, please). She sticks to the idea of being a good and positive person because that's what her mother asked her when she was dying. Something that is extremely common in many original fairy tales.

      Do you honestly think convincing Belle to kiss Rumple in Skin Deep to achieve her own personal twisted goals is less "morally bankrupt" than Snow basing decisions to protect herself and others? You said yourself Regina uses and manipulates people whenever she feels like it and yet you say she is an extremely empathetic person. I'm puzzled by that remark.

      And I'm sure that if Charming felt his relationship with Snow was poor, abusive or not healthy as you say, he wouldn't have stood by her when he was clearly disappointed with her regarding the whole Cora debacle and he definitely wouldn't make endless demonstrations of his love for her.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Cannot stand Emma. I never could. She always has to frown!!!

      I can understand that now that sh'es meet and been with Henry that she could love him. However, this does not make her a mother. Yes she gave birth, but that never qualifies a person as a mother. Regina is Henrys mother because she did raise him, in a nice home with money, and she has always loved him as her son. Yes she did lie to Henry, but in no way was he so harmed from it that he can say that Ragina is not his mother.

      I just cannot stand it, especially in this episode, when Emma looks Regina in the eyes and tells her that she is Henrys mother. Nice way to get Ragina on your side there Emma (frowny-face). Ragina is more of a mother than you are. Yes you can try to become a mother for Henry, but basically telling Ragina that she is not Henrys mother is incorrect and rude.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I found the idea of the Home-Office being the Lost Boys a bit *yawn* I felt it was a bit of a slap in the face to have Greg and Tamara (who clearly were smart enough to dupe the majority of Storybrooke and basically be the main villains of the second half of Season 2) duped themselves by teenagers and killed off so quickly. I hope they do explore the reason why Tamara had such a powerful weapon (taser) if the equipment was filled with sand. It was discussed on another thread that it was probably her belief that the taser could kill magical beings that made it do so (Neverland magic) I felt like Greg's story and background was basically over, but why did Tamara hate magic so much?

      I also disliked Emma...a LOT, in this episode. I imagine that I won't like her, or Snow for that matter at all this season. As wimpy and annoying as Charming can be sometimes, the fact that he was very close to cutting the mermaids throat was at least an honest and human reaction (love that Regina was goading him 'FILET THE BITCH' Ahh, genius)

      I like Robbie Kay as Pan, he seems sufficiently menacing and conniving. I am going to enjoy watching his story unfold. Although, that being said, as soon as he made contact with Henry, I knew he was Peter. I wasn't upset that I had come to my conclusion that quickly though and still enjoyed the 'reveal'. Very intrigued as to what his plans for Henry are. I really hope they give PP an awesome storyline.

      I don't like Felix, and didn't appreciate the scene between him and Rumpel at all. The Dark One crying like a bitch? Hmmm, not a good start for him. I hope Rumpel has more of a chance to shine than just killing characters like Tamara.

      And finally Neal. Outshone his Father a little bit in the premiere with the Mulan movie conversation and scene with Robin Hood (I liked him too, will be nice to inject a little light-hearted humour into OUAT)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Princess Alessandra wrote:
      I found the idea of the Home-Office being the Lost Boys a bit *yawn* I felt it was a bit of a slap in the face to have Greg and Tamara (who clearly were smart enough to dupe the majority of Storybrooke and basically be the main villains of the second half of Season 2) duped themselves by teenagers and killed off so quickly.

      Slap-in-the-face, to Greg and Tamara?

      Those two were a slap-in-the-face to the series. Their "arc" was pathetic, and could have caused OUaT to be cancelled.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I agree that their arc was pathetic, no doubt, but why hype them so much to not even give a satisfying ending, I agree with the death but a bit more explanation than the 'Oh crap, we've been fooled' then BAM. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Rafadeq wrote:

      I am very much aware of what the diagnosis is for ASPD, thank you very much.

      I brought that up because a staggering number of people seem to think that asshole = sociopath, which isn't by any means correct. (For example: BBC's version of Sherlock)

      The difference between the way I read Snow's heinous actions as sociopathic versus the way I read Regina's as not has a lot to do with their backstories.

      Snow grew up happy and well taken care of, and while her mother clearly tried her best to lead Snow down a path of goodness—the entirety of the FTR plot "The Queen is Dead" was amazing—it's equally clear that, following Eva's death, Leopold spoiled the hell out of his daughter—to the point of marrying a random girl just because he thought Snow would benefit from having a substitute mother. This combined with adult!Snow's general attitude that the world owes her her happy ending because she's just so pure of heart leads me to believe that Leopold inadvertently snuffed out whatever genuine empathy Snow might have had as a young girl by showering her with everything she even remotely wanted. 

      Even were she not an outright sociopath, Snow is absolutely an awful person and I would not want her anywhere near me in real life. The fact that she seems completely oblivious to this is what got me thinking along the lines of ASPD in the first place; one of the defining traits is that they absolutely feel entitled to do whatever they want to because they are fundamentally better than you

      For her entire life, Snow had everything handed to her on a silver platter, and we know from "The Queen is Dead" that Eva did her best to instill a strong sense of governmental responsibility and, you know, being a decent human being in her daughter—the message got across to young!Snow. It did not stick as she grew into adulthood—we even got heavy-handed parallels with the way the candle madness went down in present-day Storybrooke: "I wouldn't even use this to save my mother," remember.

      And Snow completely believes that she always has the moral high ground. From the pilot: "You're going to lose. I know that now. Good will always win." (emphasis mine). She repeatedly, consistently refers to herself as good and Regina as evil, sometimes irredeemably so. For an explanation of how this gets twisted into rationalizations for, for example, breaking the law, I direct you to this gem from "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree:"

      Sidney: You want to go by the book? Let’s get a warrant.

      Emma: And what judge are we going to find that she doesn’t own? We’re screwed.

      Sidney: Or, there’s my way.

      Emma: I want to do this right, Sidney.

      Sidney: Well, what’s right is exposing her. Sometimes, doing a bad thing for a good reason is okay, right?

      MMB: Yeah. I mean, maybe you’re doing something wrong, but if it’s what’s meant to be – if it’s what’s right – does that really make you a bad person?

      Regina, on the other hand, had Cora for a mother. She grew up incredibly isolated from everyone but the servants, her useless doormat of a father, and, it's worth repeating, Cora. She was belittled and threatened at every turn, and her mother had zero compunction about using magic as a means of keeping control.

      For the first eighteen years of her life, she was told over and over again that love is weakness, power is strength, and that strength leads to freedom and freedom is happiness. She was abused, mentally, emotionally, and physically, and until Daniel appeared in her life she very likely did not have anyone she could turn to. 

      Then she rescued Snow, and Leopold forced her into a position where she had a choice: Defy her mother and run away with the person she loved, or enter into what was, at the very, very least, a loveless and unhappy marriage. Regina, quite bravely given that it went against everything she'd been taught for eighteen years, chose to elope with Daniel. 

      And as a direct result of her choosing love over power, her lover and sole supporter was brutally murdered before her eyes and she was forced into the marriage she didn't want anyway. 

      Her whole life has been exactly that: Regina tries, and tries, and tries to get the happy ending she needs, and no matter what she does, it ends up blowing up in her face. When she does the right thing, her life gets worse immediately and stays that way. When she does the wrong thing, she sees short-term success followed by long-term failure.

      This is basic psychology: People are not wired to do the same things if they don't get good results. If you ran an experiment where you put people in situations to choose whether or not to do a good thing—let's say the examiner "drops" a wad of twenty dollar bills and the subject then chooses to steal it or give it back—and then the examiner goes off on a tirade at the subjects who try to return the money. Run the experiment again, and maybe the results will be mostly the same—but do it ten times? I guarantee you, people will stop returning the money.

      The same thing happens to Regina, but on a much, much larger scale. Can't get the huntsman to do what she wants and what he agreed to do in the first place? Take his heart, problem solved. (In no way am I actually condoning taking people's hearts, I'm just trying to point out why Regina behaves the way she does)

      She's not doing these things for funsies—she's doing them because the nicer strategies she tries first aren't working. Regina is the ultimate pragmatist. So of course Regina backslides into behaving like the Evil Queen. It's all she's known for—what, how old is she? Early fifties if you factor in the 28-year-long-curse? But barring manipulation from her mother, she makes incremental progress: every forward step is longer than the backward one. She's genuinely trying and it shows, especially in how she recovers much faster from Cora Part Two than she did Cora Part One.

      This is different from being sociopathic and not understanding the right/wrong distinction. Regina knows that what she does as the Evil Queen is abhorrent, but as far as she's concerned, she has no other choice.

      It's really well illustrated in the first season. At first, Regina is relatively civil towards Emma—she invites her in for a drink after she brings Henry back, holds a very polite conversation with her, snaps at her when Emma insinuates that she might try to take Henry back at the end of the pilot*—wouldn't you, if someone was trying to steal your kid?—but on the whole comes off as reasonable-but-uptight. As the curse weakens further and further, though, Regina gets increasingly desperate and the desperation she feels correlates directly to how nasty she is. She's being backed into a corner and that makes people really, really dangerous—except, amusingly enough, sociopaths, who very often lack the forethought necessary to be afraid in that way and don't respond like a neurotypical human being in high-stress situations.

      *Which I don't think is what Emma intended at all, but that's how it came off to Regina and so that's how I'm describing it here.

      Regarding Snow's lack of empathy: I don't expect for empathetic characters to completely understand where everyone is coming from all the time. That's not how real life works. What I DO expect is for characters who are meant to be decent human beings are able to (a) notice when someone is as visibly upset as Emma was in "Heart of the Truest Believer" and (b) respond to that not by saying "You just need to listen to our wisdom" but with an understanding that that person is upset for valid reasons. Snow does the former; she's treating Emma like a child, is completely patronizing and dismisses Emma's feelings as unimportant because Emma isn't listening to Snow. Even if that doesn't stem out of a lack of empathy? Still a shitty thing to do.

      (Put another way: Alice is rooming with Barbara. It's early the first semester, so they still don't know each other that well. One day Alice comes home and finds Barbara crying and obviously upset; it turns out that Barbara's beloved cat just died. Alice hates cats and thinks they should all be euthanized. Which is the better option: For Alice to say "you shouldn't be upset, all cats are evil" [i.e. an appeal for Barbara to stop being upset because Alice's worldview says she shouldn't be] or for Alice to say "oh, I'm so sorry" and try to do what she can to help Barbara through the mourning process [i.e. expressing sympathy and not being an asshole]?)

      As far as me wanting Regina to pull the "you killed my mother" card? That's in response to Snow saying "we're not killers" specifically, because yes, they ARE killers. Regina has killed people. David has killed people. Snow has killed people—not just Cora. Hook is a pirate; of course he's killed people. Aboard that ship, the only person who hasn't killed someone is Emma. The only person who has a right to say "I am not a killer" on that ship is Emma

      And that is why I don't believe that Snow truly felt remorseful for killing Cora. If she had, she would not be saying "We're not killers." She'd be saying, "We can be better than this." A person who is truly remorseful does not erase their past crimes: they admit to them (even if it's only admitted to themselves) and try to be better. Does that make sense?

      I say Regina is an empathetic person because she is very, very good at picking up on what people are feeling without having to be told (again: Belle), which requires empathy. And she doesn't do this in broad strokes—it is completely possible to be a masterful manipulator by going off of broad generalizations about what people want and using that to get them to tell you outright what they want in specifics (this is what Rumpel does). Regina, on the other hand, is on her top form when she's getting cues from individuals and working off of that; when she tries to do broad strokes, it fails miserably (Hansel and Gretel). (See also: young!Regina gains Snow's affection and trust effortlessly and without prior calculation, not for any personal gain, but because she's a genuinely nice person and she relates to Snow very well.)

      You can be an empathetic person and use that against people. You just have to burn out the part of empathy that makes you not want to do that—which is exactly. what. Cora. did. 

      I think Snow and Regina are equally horrible people; the difference is that Snow refuses to admit to this and insists that she's good, whereas Regina is at the point of saying "I screwed up everything, and now I'm going to try my hardest to get better."

      My sympathy for Regina and my disgust for Snow come not from their past actions, but their present attitudes

      About abuse/unhealthy relationships: No. No, people do not instantly get out of relationships that are unhealthy and they DO often love the people who are hurting them. Look at Belle. Look at how much Regina loves Cora in spite of everything Cora put her through.


      And Snow, unlike Rumpel and Cora, isn't outright nasty to David. She just has him completely wrapped around her little finger and he cares about her as a person a lot more than she cares about him as a person. It's telling, don't you think, that after Snow eradicated her ability to love in "Heart of Darkness," the thing that got her to love Charming again was not the development of a relationship, but the fact that he jumped in front of an arrow to save her life. It's all about what he can do for her and not who he is.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I was so amazed with this episode I liked the relization between all of the characters. Emma had the right to tell her parents off. My favorite line"Then what,you'll win her over with your rainbow kisses and unicorn stickers?"  I was surprised when MM called Regina a bitch and threw the first punch at her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I loved this episode!

      This I didn't like (putting this first because it's smaller)

      1. Charming's "It's who we are". And the general idea around that family in general. I hate the concept that "Good will win just because it's good". It's basically saying you have the right to victory, and a lot of harm as been done because of that thinking. Especially when it's being stated by someone who gave into revenge, and showed herself to be no better.

      2.Greg and Tamara's death: Like many people, I hated these characters. They seemed out of place to me, not even getting into their crusade. Greg I can kind of get, with his history, but they never even went into Tamara. However, them being killed in the first two seconds of the show seemed weak to me. I liked how Greg's death was used to show the power of the shadow. I get why they did it, but it didn't seem the best way to go about it

      3. The fight on the boat. I loved that they finally got the chance to vent, but, during a storm?! Hook and Charming made no sense, Charming was supposed to be a military leader, you'd think he would manage to control his emotions long enough to look past a simple insult and try to help them all survive. Again, I know why they [the writers] did this, to show Emma as a leader, since she was the one to figure it out. But really, there is a time and place for everything

      What I loved

      1. Regina: I love her character in general, standing on the border of good and evil all the time. But, going with my annoyance at Snow, I loved Regina calling her out on it. The Rainbow kisses and stickers line was good, but I really liked her statement about how that belief might somehow work in the Enchanted Forest, but it wouldn't fly in Neverland. After everything that happened in Storybrooke, you'd think they would have realized that they can't just assume they win, and i like her calling them out on it. That, and she was the one who drove off the mermaids, and was willing to do something about the mermaid (even if it was wrong)

      2. Neal: His story was handled well, I didn't think I'd like it much, but they did a good job with how he reacted to being back.

      3. Rumplestiltskin: Robert Carlyle is an amazing actor, and the writers give him good stuff to work with, the result rocks. I liked the mystery introduced in the episode, was that doll his, Baelfire's, his father's? 

      4. Peter Pan: I like him so far, he seems like an enteresting bad guy

      5. Emma: Her statement at the end. There is no right way, there is only victory

      Hope:

      "Forget a woman scorned, those two are proof that an angry mother is something whose fury hell hath no"

      I want someone to say a line like that. I don't expect Emma and regina to become friends, but they want the exact same thing, and i think they should be able to bond over it

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Samcarter34 wrote:

      3. Charming was supposed to be a military leader, you'd think he would manage to control his emotions long enough to look past a simple insult and try to help them all survive. 

      Actually, David was never a military leader. He is shepherd, who impersonates a prince. Even, the creators said  so.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I loved all of it ;D

      I have NO hang ups on any of the characters they were all wonderful!

      I saw that ep. 4 times in a row on ABC.com/Onceuponatime

      with all the excitement of 5 guys watching the Superbowl!!!

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • TNOandXadric wrote: My sympathy for Regina and my disgust for Snow come not from their past actions, but their present attitudes


      Yes, Snow said "good will always win" and what did Regina say? "Get off your high horse and stop assuming I'm evil"? No. She said "we'll see about that". Regina seems not only to recognize she is evil, she seems to actually enjoy and appreciate the title. I don't think she's a sociopath because of that, though. And neither is Snow.

      That dialog you provided is a little out of context. I'm pretty sure I distinctively remember that scene. MM was having an affair with a married David. She wasn't actually agreeing to Sidney's idea of breaking the law to get something you want. She was trying to justify her actions to herself. Actions she felt conflicted about. And that's normal human reaction.

      Snow did notice her daughter was upset. That's why she went over to talk to her. But like I said, she wasn't understanding everything completely until Emma lashed out at her and Charming. Which I think yes, was long overdue but also a little bit harsh. Emma totally had the right to get things off her chest, but the way she said some of those things was, in my opinion, uncalled for (much like she did with Regina at the end of the episode*). I get that the whole "let us share our wisdom with you" was a silly thing to say considering they have almost the exact same experience when it comes to being a parent. But her tone when she said Snow and Charming were "trying" to be parents felt offensive to me, although I do understand her rage. Isn't it also understandable that Snow treats Emma like a child sometimes? And I honestly believe she doesn't do that intentionally most of the times. It might be patronizing, but let's face it, were it not for the curse, Snow was always meant to be Emma's "patron" and it hurts her that she didn't have the chance. I don't think Snow made that wisdom remark with the intention of souding condescending. She just wants the chance to be a mother, although she has little idea of how to be one.

      * - I don't think Emma was implying Regina isn't Henry's mother. I think she was just trying to reassure herself that although she might not have wanted him as a baby, she definitely wants him now. But, like I said, her tone was offensive and most people I talked to got the idea the she was saying "He is my son, not yours, back off".

      And Snow did say something like "we can do better than this" during that speech she gave trying to convince Emma not to let Regina die trying to save Storybrooke, remember? She admitted killing Cora was wrong, even stating that what she did was the easy way out and that she shouldn't have gone down that path.

      I do realize people do not instantly get out of relationships that are unhealthy. I never said anything about David leaving her. I mentioned things like support and displays of affection. About the arrow, I don't think it was about the fact that Charming saved her from permanently turning into a dark person. She liked being dark then. She wanted revenge, she didn't care about being good. From where she was standing, she wasn't in a "life threatening" situation, therefore she didn't care about being saved. And how could she love Charming for who he was if she didn't even remember him? That's what Rumple said to Grumpy. The way I see it, what got her to love him again was seeing that Charming would risk his own life to show how much he loved her even thought she didn't even care.


      I do have to agree with one thing you said, though. Regina and Snow are different in a way that one embraces her dark side while the other tries her best to keep it as far away as she can. And I'll even go as far as to borrow what Snow said to Emma in the last episode and rephrase it a little bit. I think Snow tries to hide whatever darkness she feels inside her because the moment she lets herself believe that she might be turning into a bad person is the moment she actually becomes one. We all saw that happen to Regina.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Regina does not believe that Snow is good. She has not believed in Snow's goodness since the Daniel incident, and every subsequent action Snow took served to further convince Regina that Snow was no different from her, except that Snow got everything she wanted and Regina got kicked to the proverbial curb. Given that, I think it's understandable to hearing Snow tell her triumphantly that good will always win is to scoff and say, "We'll see about that." 

      Think about if their positions as protagonist/antagonist were reversed: A triumphant Snow has just cast the curse and gloats that "good will always win"—would you expect our hypothetical hero-Regina to accept that? No. A character like Snow, who sees things as very firmly defined, would say something along the lines of "Please, you're not good." Regina, on the other hand, is something of a deadpan snarker when she's not miserable, so of course her response is more scoff than contradiction. Yes?

      (I'm a big fan of the "the villain is the hero of their own tale" school of thought, which is where this is coming from.)

      The dialogue I provided works on two levels: first, there's the text, which is that Sidney wants to break into Regina's office to collect evidence and Emma wants to acquire a warrant first because she has an actual moral spine. Mary Margaret throws her support behind Sydney on the logic that Regina is clearly evil, and therefore it's okay to break the law to get evidence that wouldn't even be useable in the event of an actual legal process.

      Then there's the more subtextual level that you mentioned. Mary Margaret is having an affair with David and is in crisis over it. She rationalizes it away with the same line, and it becomes "I am meant to be with David, obviously, therefore it is okay to lie to Kathryn and see her husband behind her back instead of being upfront with her and explaining things." Yes, this is something that real people do all the time, but that does not make it okay. 

      The reason people use rationalizations and justifications of that nature is because they want to continue doing something which they know to be wrong. It's not okay. It's exactly the same kind of mental contortions Regina must have gone through to kill her first victim (I imagine it was something like "I need Rumpelstiltskin's tutelage because I have no other options; this girl is probably just learning magic as a lark, therefore my needs take precedent over hers and that makes it okay if I kill her to convince Rumpel to train me again.")

      Snow thought Emma was upset because Emma was brooding and blaming herself. The idea that she could be part of the problem never occurred to her. Then, instead of responding with the incredible compassion that she's purported to have, she gets defensive and tells Emma to essentially stop feeling bad and listen to Snow because Snow knows best.

      Contrast this, again, with David (who incidentally is the biggest proponent of Snow-is-a-wonderful-person-and-can-do-no-wrong), whose response is "Yes, things are awful right now and we're going to do whatever we can to help you fix that." It's simple and still irritating in its optimism, but it tells Emma that he disagrees with her worldview but he respects where hers comes from and how it influences her decisions.

      (Basically David is, while a bit dim, an infinitely better person than the majority of the primary cast.)

      It's not understandable that Snow treats Emma as a child. Consider the contexts in which she knows Emma:

      1. A few minutes at best following Emma's birth, when Snow got to hold her and formed the mother-child chemical bond.

      2. A few months of knowing Emma as just Mary Margaret; they are friends and roommates who trust and confide in one another.

      3. However long after the curse breaks—not more than a year—of having both one and two in her head. 

      What is understandable is Snow having trouble reconciling those differences. What is not understandable is the mere knowledge that twenty-eight years ago she gave birth to the woman who is her age and who she has known predominately as a friend translates to treating that woman like a rebellious child. What is not understandable is trying to parent a friend who is her age or possibly a bit older, depending on how old Snow was when the curse was cast, just because Snow gave birth to her once and parenting is what mothers do.

      It doesn't matter if she's doing it on purpose. What matters is that it's creepy, rude, and condescending, and Snow gives no indication that she understands any of these things or why Emma might react badly to them.

      (And, personal digression time: I have a mother who is extremely patronizing towards both my sister and I—I am twenty and my sister is eighteen, and she routinely speaks to us the exact same way she did when we were eleven and thirteen or thereabouts. It's annoying, but understandable because, you know, she raised us. My mother is also a stubborn, opinionated, occasionally bitchy person who is very often certain that she's in the right. She also realizes that the patronizing thing is wrong and she tries really hard to back off and let my sister and I grow into our own people! That Snow, who does not have the excuse of having helped Emma grow up or even known that Emma was her daughter for the majority of their relationship, doesn't see this is really creepy.)

      I completely agree that Emma didn't mean to imply that Regina isn't Henry's mother, but she did inadvertently do so. I'm very certain that she later apologizes for her mistake (and I wrote fic to that effect). Like I said before, intention is not everything. 

      All of Snow's moralizing speeches happen when she has an audience; when she's alone, we get things like Gepetto and "that's not me" and trying to incite Regina to kill her. I think that is a not insignificant juxtaposition.

      Dark!Snow "fell in love" with Charming because he took an arrow to save her from a fate which he explicitly told her he believed would destroy her. Whether she agreed with him on the destruction part is irrelevant; what he did was prove to her that he's 100% willing to risk his life in order to keep her safe from destruction that he thought was certain. It wasn't his love that she was responding to, it was the actions he took because of that love, and those actions were to prioritize her needs over his life. 

      I didn't mean that Dark!Snow could have fallen back in love with Charming based on their past, I meant that she could have fallen back in love with Charming the same way she fell in love with him the first time, which was by having crazy adventures with him and learning who he was rather than what he was willing to do to protect her.

      It is completely possible for abused people to be devoted to their abuser. Again: Belle to Rumpel. Regina to Cora. 

      I don't think Snow is outright abusive in the way that Rumpel or Cora are, although Dark!Snow certainly had the potential to be. But I do think that her relationship with David is creepily codependent and that her behavior in general is a big, big part of the reason for that.

      "We all saw that happen to Regina" —actually, no, we didn't. The entire time she was the Evil Queen, she was completely convinced that she was doing the best she could under the circumstances and it isn't until she begins her redemption arc in Storybrooke that she begins to admit that what she did was evil and now she needs to get better. There is a reason that the cliche is "admitting you have a problem is the first step to healing." You cannot change if you do not first admit to yourself that there is a reason you need to change. 

      For instance, replace "evil" with an addictive substance—let's say alcohol. Regina and Snow both struggle with alcoholism; Regina is low-functioning and Snow is high-functioning. Regina-as-the-Evil-Queen is deep in denial—she can stop any time, she just chooses not to! See, she's in control of herself!—but Regina-during-and-post-curse eventually realizes that she isn't in control and does what she can to overcome this problem, by attending AA meetings and trying to gather a support network, et cetera. Snow, on the other hand, insists that she doesn't have a problem—she doesn't get slobbering drunk and pass out in her bedroom like Regina does, right?—and refuses to get help because she doesn't believe she needs it.

      And on top of this, everyone Regina knows is telling her "you have a problem with alcohol and you need to fix it," whereas Snow is so high functioning that none of her social circle can believe that she would ever have need help.

      In-show, Regina and Snow both have wells of nastiness in them that run very, very deep. The difference is that everyone in Regina's life is pushing her to redeem herself, to become a better person, to stop being evil—and everyone keeps telling Snow that she has the purest heart of anyone they've ever known (I believe David literally says that to her in "The Miller's Daughter"—I remember being angry about it).

      Therefore, where Regina keeps struggling to find a way to overcome her past evil, Snow buries hers under a mountain of rationalizations and excuses and pretends it doesn't exist. One of these strategies will lead to success, the other will not. (Hint: repression is never the healthy choice.)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • TNOandXadric wrote:

      Regina does not believe that Snow is good. 


      I completely agree. I don't believe Regina thinks Snow is good. Which is also another difference I see between them. After the Daniel episode, all Regina could see in Snow was betrayal and everything but goodness. She let her grief and rage cloud her judgement and she blamed a child -- who only did what she did because of Cora's slyness -- for all the misery in her life. Because of that, all she ever wanted is revenge and after repeated attempts to ruin Snow's life, I've rarely seen Regina feel sorry for any of her actions (that not only hurt Snow, but also countless others). Snow, on the other hand, felt horrible at the moment she learned what happened to Daniel because of what she did as a (naïve) child. And after all that history of hate between them, Snow still believes Regina can be good as she once was.

      Again, I agree. It is not correct to try and justify your actions this way. But I completely disagree that MM ever thought it was ok to lie to Kathryn just because she thought she was meant to be with David. On the contrary, MM was always against the idea of sneaking around and she was the one who convinced David it was better to be honest and tell the truth, which he didn't. She expected him to do the right thing, and was so disappointed at him because of that, that she broke things off and we didn't see them together again until they remembered they were Snow and Charming. And I honestly believe that if it were Snow instead of MM, she probably wouldn't have agreed to the affair in the first place given that she's very attached to her moral ideals.

      She also risks her life and makes decisions she'd rather not make because people she loves may be compromised in some way. That's exactly what happened when she called out that ogre which was about to kill Emma. Like she said later, she hadn't shot an arrow in 28 years and yet she risked her life to save her daughter's. Same thing happened when she decided to give Rumple's dagger to Cora and Regina because she was afraid they'd kill poor Johanna. They had a fixed plan for that dagger and in fact the last thing she should've done was to have given it to Cora. But she did, she put her plans aside to spare the life of someone who was innocent (which didn't really work). The other biggest examples that I can think of are the apple and the infertile drink episodes that you mentioned. Snow didn't eat/drank those because she's a thrill seeker. It wasn't unnecessary risk-taking and she wasn't behaving dangerously. She was doing something you claim she can't: putting others (in both these particular cases, Charming) before herself. She ate the apple so Regina wouldn't kill him. She decided it was better to eat that, to have her body become her tomb, to be stuck in there with nothing but dreams formed out of her own regrets than to have Charming be killed. Now the drink thing, that was indeed naïve, I'm not arguing with you there. But she wasn't thinking about herself at the moment. It didn't even occur to her that her enemy could have put something in her drink, because in her mind, King George only brought her there to know the whereabouts of Charming, to which she responded "no matter what you do to me, I'll never tell you where he is".

      Regarding her relationship with Emma, I think qualifying her behavior as "creepy" is unreasonable. That's also being too technical by saying Snow shouldn't behave the way she does just because she and Emma spent little time together as mother and daughter. That's almost like saying she shouldn't try to be Emma's mother because now they're the same age and she already lost her chance. If she sometimes treats Emma like a rebellious child, I'm sure that's not intentional and yes, that matters. How could it not? She is trying to get the hang of things, to learn what it means to be a mother. She never did that before. She probably has no idea how to do it properly. And the situation is 10 times more difficult, considering her daughter is also a mother who is the same age as she is. But she is TRYING! And I believe that makes all the different to Emma, although she might get annoyed at Snow sometimes. Should Snow simply stop trying to have Emma as her child and simply treat her like a friend? I'm sure Emma would feel deeply hurt and she'd resent Snow even more if that were the case.

      "We all saw what happened to Regina" - Actually, yes, we did. Despite being raised by Cora in that inhospitable environment, Regina was always afraid of turning evil like her mother. She held on to the belief that she wouldn't as long as she believed power was not as important as her mother claimed. Even when she was having lessons with Rumple, she still believed she could use magic and still be good, be nothing like Cora. But then, at the moment she allowed herself to believe magic was power and that power was important to her, she was able to take out her first heart and crush it in a matter of seconds. And that's what I meant. I think Snow honestly believes the same thing could happen to her if she doesn't try to keep her dark side at bay. Everybody has a dark side. Like you said, people do not fit neatly into "villain" boxes or "hero" boxes. But some people choose to embrace that darkness and go about doing whatever they feel like it under the lame excuse of "Oh, I'm embracing my dark side. I have one, I'm human" while some people choose not to let that darkness manifest itself. Like Jiminy said, "giving into one's dark side never accomplishes anything". But I'm aware Snow did let that happen on quite a few occasions, like by convincing Regina to "kill" Cora, or also that Gepetto episode you mentioned. But my point is, she doesn't want to embrace it. She definitely believed what Regina said about "once you blacken your heart, it only grows darker and darker. Trust me, I know." So for me it is completely understandable that she doesn't want to admit she let her own heart blacken, even if only a little bit. And when David asks her why she didn't tell him about her heart, she answers "Because telling you makes things real, and I needed to believe it wasn't. That I could find a way to stop it, that redemption was possible." Snow wants redemption. And Regina wants it, too. Let me borrow your alcohol analogy to illustrate the difference I see between the paths they chose to redemption. Regina admits she has the problem, because her son wants her to. She looks for help, she even stops drinking for some time. After a while, she realizes how much she misses alcohol and she eventually relapses and starts drinking like there's no tomorrow again. Snow didn't have a problem with alcohol for most of her life, but she's seen what it can do to people. As an adult, following the advice of drunkhead Rumple, Snow get a taste of alcohol, goes a little too far and immediately regrets the repercussions of her drinking bacchanalia. Since she can't erase what she did, the best thing she can do is bury that episode and try her best to never even see a drop of alcohol again.

      I just hope, at some point, to see Regina actually wanting to change for herself. Not just for Henry. Because as long as she keeps the "I tried to be the person you wanted me to be, but I couldn't" motto, her strategy will never lead to permanent success.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Bravo Rafadeq! You explained well. I agree with your thoughts on Snow. She is a great 

      character on OUAT

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • XxBadWolfxX wrote:
      Bravo Rafadeq! You explained well. I agree with your thoughts on Snow. She is a great 

      character on OUAT


      Thank you! :) She is a great character indeed!

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Emma getting angry at her parents made me remember why I use to like her so much.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Regina actually didn't immediately switch from liking Snow to loathing her—easy to miss, since we barely see any of their relationship post-marriage but prior to Leopold's death, but what we do see of that period is (1) Regina lying to protect young!Snow's innocence, soon after Daniel's death (a few days? a week?), (2) Regina having a moment shortly after that that involved her fantasizing about killing Snow and which was sparked by Snow inadvertently salting her still-recent wounds by playing with the ring Daniel gave her (and being immensely disturbed by the fact that she had the fantasy at all), and (3) Regina comforting Snow immediately following Leopold's death. We never do see (or if we have, I don't remember it and please, please correct me on this) exactly the moment Regina switches from trying to do right by Snow to actively trying to kill her ("I should have left her to die on that horse" does not count, since it was, again a few days or at best a week after Daniel's murder, and Regina was speaking from a place of extreme pain rather than true murderous wrath). 

      Think about it: If Regina truly hated Snow from the moment Snow spilled the beans about Daniel, she would've taken the first opportunity to rip Snow's heart out and use it to make her kill Leopold in public. Everyone sees Snow kill her own father—clearly she's a traitor. Regina then replaces Snow's heart (to twist the knife, and all—no guilt if you don't have feelings!) and uses magic to wipe or modify Snow's memories so Snow has no idea that Regina had anything to do with it. Problem. Solved. 

      My personal belief is that after a while, it wasn't that Snow had accidentally caused Daniel's death, it was that Snow had no idea that her actions had caused Daniel's death and, from what little we see of them during that period, Snow never figured out how miserable Regina was. How would you feel if were horrifically miserable all the time and your stepdaughter thought you were, if not happy, at least content and treated you like she expected you to be happy/content? 

      If Snow really, truly was morally opposed to sneaking around and going behind Kathryn's back, there was NOTHING stopping her from going to Kathryn and explaining the situation. She CHOSE to wait around for David to do that and CHOSE to bully him into telling the truth instead of cutting out the middleman. I do not admire her for this—she was, per usual, all talk and little to no real action, and the actions she did take put her at almost no personal risk.

      I do not buy that Mary Margaret is different from Snow, anymore than David is different from Charming or Ruby is different from Red or anything else. They are the same people, but they were put in very different cultural contexts (fantasy feudalism versus our world) and they respond differently to them—if you had grown up in, say, Victorian England, you'd be a lot different than you are today, for example. 

      Snow shooting that ogre was acting heroically. Snow giving the dagger to Cora was (while naïve) equally heroic. All of the characters we've been talking to have shown themselves capable of heroism: Rumpel stops the ogre wars, Regina saves young!Snow and, in "Heart of the Truest Believer," drops everything to save a woman that she hates, without prompting. (Though I do think it is noteworthy that Rumpel chooses to save his son by helping the greater good, Regina demonstrates frequently that she's more than capable of fighting for people she doesn't even know or actively dislikes, and Snow only lifts a finger is someone she specifically cares for is in trouble—the only exception I can think of is when she swings into the village to murder Dark Mook #346 to save disguised!Regina from execution, and she explicitly uses that to win the favor of the peasants.)

      Drinking George's drink and eating Regina's apple were not instances of heroism, they were instances of stupidity; George's drink in particular. She knows that George despises her and Charming and would love to sabotage their relationship; she gives nary a thought to drinking the unknown liquid he offers her. That isn't thrill seeking, it's a complete lack of common sense and unbearably naïve (compare, if you will, to reckless, impulsive Harry remembering Moody's mantra of "CONSTANT VIGILANCE" and not drinking the Veritaserum-laced tea Umbridge offered him in OotP).

      Regina's apple is a teensy bit more understandable, since it's part of a treaty and Regina tells her what will happen first. I submit that it was still stupid, because Snow had no guarantee that Regina would keep her word, made no effort to get some kind of guarantee, and believed that Regina was just plain evil at that point. (Bear in mind, she also had the promise of True Love's Kiss, which she and Charming had used several times before to great success. That makes me question how self-sacrificing she was actually being.)

      Why is qualifying behavior that I find skin-crawlingly creepy and uncomfortable as "creepy" something you find unreasonable? I'm not saying it's creepy because it's weird, I'm saying it's creepy because it literally creeps me out the same way Rumpel's casually tyrannical treatment of Belle and Bae does, or Cora's use of Henry's appearance to trick Regina into letting her into the secret vault room does, or so on and so forth. 

      It isn't a matter of technicality that I expect Snow and Emma's current relationship to tend more towards platonic than maternal—it's a matter of human psychology. The human brain learns by experience and acts accordingly; it does not have an on/off "mother" switch any more than it has an on/off "sibling" switch. Look up genetic sexual attraction and what happens when siblings who skip the Westermarck effect by being raised separately meet as adults—in the event that people experiencing GSA find out that they're siblings, there's often a revulsion response because of how incest is treated in our culture, yes, but that doesn't automatically make the GSA go away. Look up Patrick Stübing and Susan Karolewski, for example.

      Which is to say, for the majority of their relationship, Snow has been Emma's friend, not her mother. To suddenly switch to determined maternal behavior strictly because she remembered that she gave birth to Emma once—and it bears repeating that Emma is currently the same age as Snow, if not a bit older—flies in the face of everything we know about how the human brain works. Motherhood is more than giving birth; it's about raising a child to adulthood, and Snow didn't do that, ergo she is only Emma's mother in the biological sense. Sad? Absolutely. But dealing with it by infantilizing Emma by treating her like a recalcitrant child?

      Snow does not have to learn what it means to be a mother; the time for mothering Emma is gone and she can't get it back. Compare Rumpel and Bae: Rumpel KNOWS that Neal is an adult now, and the way he wants to fix their relationship is by turning Neal into a child again because he knows that he can't treat Neal like a little boy anymore—and this is a man who raised Bae for, what, fourteen years? Logically, it's Rumpel who should be having the problem of treating his adult offspring like a child; however, he does not and when Neal refuses to go back to being fourteen, Rumpel respects that. 

      I don't want her to try to become Emma's mother, and neither does Emma (she makes that quite clear in the premiere—she wants Snow and David to be a part of her family, but not as parents). Emma is a grown woman with very nearly three decades of real-world experience under her belt, and at this point in her life she doesn't need parents; she needs friends and confidants, people she can trust and love and be loved by. Is it any wonder she's rankling because one of her close friends is trying to mother her instead?

      Certainly the circumstances are weird and that leads to awkwardness for everyone, but I do think Emma honestly needs and wants Mary-Margaret-her-friend more than Snow-her-mother, and what she's doing in the premiere is coming to and expressing the realization that allowing Snow and David to act like her parents in season two was a mistake.

      Evil, like alcoholism, does not happen out of a vacuum. 

      It almost always isn't a matter of "giving in." It isn't a matter of being too weak or lacking the desire to stop. In cases like Regina's, it is a matter of reaching the point at which she cannot physically, mentally, or emotionally take any more and breaking. It's not letting go—it's clinging to morality by her fingernails and having that finally yanked out of her hands by the agony of having hope again and promptly having that final, desperate hope crushed. And once you fall, it is so, so much harder to get a hold of it again, especially if you have a nonexistent support network—to say nothing of someone who is actively trying to break you like Rumpel and Cora were to Regina. 

      Alcoholism isn't a perfect metaphor—alcoholics often aren't driven to drink; often they begin drinking the way most people do, as a social thing, and the difference is that they have a bit of poorly-coded genetic material that makes them unable to self-regulate their drinking after they've had the first drink. It's just like any other addiction—physical dependence develops and then it is very, very hard to stop because the brain has literally been rewired to need the substance it's addicted to. That's why an alcoholic who doesn't drink is called a "recovering alcoholic." The alcoholism is still in their genes. It's never going to go away, no more than any other genetic code they might possess. But with struggle and a support network, they can get to the point of overcoming the disease.

      Evil is all about nurture; even sociopaths are capable of living crime-free, productive lives, if they put the work into it. There isn't an evil gene or even a group of evil genes. Put a person—any person—into a situation like Regina's, who grew up with a mother who tormented and belittled her in the name of shaping her into an acceptable facsimile of what Cora wanted for herself and a father who did nothing to stop it, then got married off to a man three times her age and lost the only person who ever loved her and fought for her not once but twice, and never, ever got a break, and I guarantee you they will either spiral into suicidal depression or start fighting back with everything they've got. 

      By the same token, relapsing isn't about "realizing how much [the alcoholic] misses alcohol," it's about the alcoholic is fighting their own genetics and a brain that has been wired to need alcohol to function. You can have enough determination to move mountains with the sheer might of your will and not succeed at beating an addiction by yourself—recovering addicts need people to support and help them or they will fail. They may show progress in the beginning, but sooner or later they are going to fail. This isn't a new idea—you can barely walk for stumbling over another story about the self-sufficient hero who tries to be self-sufficient in beating their addiction to whatever and fails miserably and learns that they have to rely on friends and family to succeed.

      Regina wants, desperately, to get better. She wants it for herself: she wants it because she wants love, and getting better is the only way she's going to get it. She wants it because she knows evil isn't the route to happiness and she wants—needs—to not be miserable. Are these selfish reasons? Yes, of course. But they're reasons for and about her. Regina does not care about redemption until she realizes that evil and being loved are incompatible; notice that her big relapse happens because her mother shows up and starts showering her with what is, for Cora, unimaginable levels of kindness and affection (Cora even breaks out the tears and says she wants to make things better between them and that she was wrong! She compliments Regina and praises her and is exactly the opposite in her approach from what we see in the flashbacks—and, barring Daniel, that's the biggest demonstration of kindness Regina has ever experienced in her entire fifty-odd years of living.) Of course she goes right back to doing what Cora preaches; she's getting loved for it, rewarded for it. Whereas the most Henry ever gives her for being good is a thank you or if she's lucky a quick hug before he leaves her again to be with the people she can't stand and who can barely tolerate her, the people he keeps telling her with words and actions that he believes to be his real family instead of her, who raised him for ten of his eleven years.

      Snow broke, too. She reached the point at which she couldn't handle the situation with her much-lauded righteousness and, like Regina, when she broke, she went straight into murder mode. 

      The difference is that the threshold of awfulness at which Regina broke was exponentially higher than the levels necessary to break Snow; Regina had at least twenty years of having an indisputably horrible life. Snow did not.

      They both broke because of the death of a loved one. In Regina's case, she had no one else to turn to and there were people actively conspiring to turn her into, quote, "a monster." Snow had David, Ruby (who is ostensibly her best friend), Emma and Henry, the dwarves, and so on to help her through the mourning process, and David was actively trying to talk her out of killing Cora and reminding her that fighting fire with fire and death with death was not the right response. He did the exact opposite of what Rumpel did to Regina—helping instead of tearing down. Snow chose to go full steam ahead with killing Cora in spite of that. 

      (And using an abused woman's desperate desire to be loved to trick her into killing her own mother? Is not "a little too far." That's straight up jumping off the deep end.)

      And now they are both trying to get better. Most recently, Regina did this by willingly sacrificing herself for an entire town of people she hated (for Henry, a selfish motivation) and ceasing her fight with Snow to get Emma out of the water  (not for Henry—if Emma died and the others turned against her, she could just strike out off on her own like Rumpel, she's powerful enough—a selfless motivation).

      So far, Snow has done it by asking Regina to kill her because she couldn't take the guilt, refusing to accept accountability for punching Gepetto ("that wasn't me!"), helping to find Regina after she went missing, and then completely ignoring the fact that she killed Regina's mother at all ("we're not killers!"). 

      Basically, even if Snow isn't a sociopath—and I still think she is—she's dealing with her darkness by pretending it doesn't exist and repressing it. Not a recipe for success at all.

      Or: acknowledging that you have a problem or weaknesses does not mean you fall into it again. Saying, "I have a problem with abusing magic and powertripping" is a step on the path to not doing that anymore, not the reverse.

      (Is there somewhere more appropriate that we could take this discussion? I feel we're derailing the topic at hand, which is supposed to be the premiere.)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I personally like the show the way its running now. All the Characters are such flawed humans and not your run-of-the-mill 90210 acting. Many of us can relate I reckon. Omg everytime I see Rumpelstiltskin cry? My own tears just burst. Perhaps their is a valid reason of Snows acting.

      Maybe it'll lead into some really good ep.s where she does totally turn dark as Regina and then with some major help from her family, She gets redeemed. Good lesson many might pick up as inspiration for their own tragic lives.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • TNOandXadric wrote:

      (Is there somewhere more appropriate that we could take this discussion? I feel we're derailing the topic at hand, which is supposed to be the premiere.)

      Agreed, and I wanted to ask some moderator: can anyone just open a new thread and, like, move all the Regina / Snow analysis posts there? Because that's an a-f*-mazing one and I think it would deserve its own topic in which to follow the developments we'll surely get with the progress of the series. TNO, you're very insightful, congrats! :)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • No, unfortunately, I can't exactly move specific posts. A new topic has been created, however, here.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • TNOandXadric, I replied your comments on the new topic createded by Utter solitude :)

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Filet the Bitch! Nuff Said xD

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • SkyCloud24 wrote:
      Filet the Bitch! Nuff Said xD 

      I loved that part. 


        Preparing Editor Spell
    • "And what, you'll win her over with your rainbow kisses and unicorn stickers!?!"

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Emma giving birth to Henry seems quite similar to the birth giving scene that Jennifer Morrison did in Star Trek. Wouldn't you agree?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • A Spy in the Mirror
        Preparing Editor Spell
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.