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  • As we could see, Cora was quite meant to become the Queen. What do you guys think happened between The Miller's Daugher and The Stable Boy for Cora and Henry not to become King and Queen?

    By the way, Eva is not Henry's elder sister.

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    • She said she was only fifth in line.

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    • I was a little confused. I kept waiting for her downfall during the episode. If she never lost her power why wouldn't she just kill the four people ahead of her?

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    • Rose McGowan negociated to reappear in another episode with Rumpelstiltskin. If that happens, I'm sure they would explain her downfall.

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    • Sora1954 wrote:
      Rose McGowan negociated to reappear in another episode with Rumpelstiltskin. If that happens, I'm sure they would explain her downfall.

      Awesome, but it probably won't happen till next season.

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    • Didn't they say Henry was 5th in line to the throne?

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    • I bet my money on a rejected Rumpel doing something.

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    • I understand why Rumpel had such a violent reaction to Belle in Skin Deep now. He was rejected by Milah because he was a coward, and was left to raise Bae by himself, crippled no less. Eventually he gained power as the Dark One, and used his powers to murder Milah because she chosed to be with Hook instead of him.

      Cora fell in love with the power-hungry Rumpel and wanted to be with him, what is ironic is that she also chosed something else over him, power itself. Even with himself no longer a "coward" Rumpel still gets rejected. After that blow he probably felt like no one could ever love him. 

      P.S I loved it how it was Rumbelle feels that finally reconnected Nealfire and Mr. Gold! ^_^

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    • I'm glad I'm not the only one who was thinking that during the episode. I wonder what happened...Hopefully we will find out, 

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    • What confused me in this episode was Rumpel's age. It seemed like the only people who don't age in The Fairytale World are Rumpel and Hook, but I realized that Rumpel is immortal post-Dark One and Hook supposedly went to Neverland. Makes sense now!

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    • It's quite possible that king Xavier's kingdom collapsed before they could ascend to the throne, thus leaving them out of a job. Alternatively, by some twisted fairy tale logic, Eva was actually the eldest daughter, and when she married Leopold, she created a merger between their kingdoms, leaving Henry and Cora as duke and dutchess of the kingdom, but not queen and king.

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    • She mentioned that she was fifth in line to be queen, and that it wouldn't happen without a lot of blood she. My guess is that there wasn't a lot of bloodshed, so without her heart to complicate the matter, she simply used to conniving ways to ensure the future for Regina to become Queen.

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    • I have been wondering this myself. Henry was stated as being a "prince" so Cora and Regina should each have been princesses. Since Cora could spin straw into gold it couldn't be that the kingdom went bankrupt. Perhaps it was conquered. Cora mentioned that she was fifth in line to be the queen. People before her in line could be: the king, the king's wife (?), Henry. Obviously that's not enough people. Maybe Henry had an older sibling.

      Whatever happened to their kingdom it must have been big and permanent because Cora was forced to set her sights on King Leopold and Qeen Eva's kingdom.

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    • blegh i think its karma, its her own fault for being a bitch that she doesnt become queen. But she just just keeps on slapping people and doesnt she what she already has o_o she turned regina evil, didnt see that she had some one she could love (rumple). It kinda felt like when Belle memory was eraised Rumple and Cora could have  a second chance, but noo cora didnt take it. -_- 

      BUT IM GOING OFF TOPIC... -_- i think theres gonna happen something so that the viewers will sympatisize with cora xD

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    • 87.195.247.163 wrote:

      BUT IM GOING OFF TOPIC... -_- i think theres gonna happen something so that the viewers will sympatisize with cora xD

      If so, it will not be during Season 2.... Cora's arc, this season, is over.

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    • 129.210.115.4 wrote:
      It's quite possible that king Xavier's kingdom collapsed before they could ascend to the throne, thus leaving them out of a job. Alternatively, by some twisted fairy tale logic, Eva was actually the eldest daughter, and when she married Leopold, she created a merger between their kingdoms, leaving Henry and Cora as duke and dutchess of the kingdom, but not queen and king.

      Hmm... Eva was not Henry's sister. She came from the northern kingdom, or something like that.

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    • 24.14.85.175 wrote:
      She said she was only fifth in line.

      Then it doesn't make sense that she states that Regina "One day she will be Queen".

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      24.14.85.175 wrote:
      She said she was only fifth in line.
      Then it doesn't make sense that she states that Regina "One day she will be Queen".

      Well Killian it rather she is really power hungry or Rumple told her that her daughter will be Queen. It really no diffrent than some of the mother of rulers who wanted, and ploted to  have their kid becoming King.

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    • Well i guess we can not tell what happened next because Once Upon A Time is just so unpredictable and twisted. 

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    • She was fifth in line to be queen, so I guess the first four in line didn't die

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    • What I think was, Henry Sr's dad was not a king per se. He was more of a local lord who got called king without actually being a king. Happened a lot of time. Local powerful landholders were accorded title king by their subjects without them technically being the ruler of land. Sometimes the main King would be powerful enough to subdue them, sometimes not so much and they could rule side by side, even forge alliances and sometimes the main ruling dynasty would be overthrown by such smaller ones and then they would become main ruling dynasty.

      I think something like that might have happened. But cora was quite determined for Regina to be a queen, anyway, to fullfill her own unfullfilled desire.

      What I don't understand is, if she could spin gold, why would she ever reduce to such an impoverished state, she could prolly buy any kingdom.


      Or the fact that Cora betrayed rumple and their contract made rumple mad enough to do some manipulations. Totally possible.

      Anywho, in the episode, Into the deep, regina told rumple they need to stand together against Cora and Rumple says he won in the end. To which regina replies, thats not how she tells the story. Maybe this has got to do with Cora wriggling out of their contract  and yet eventually rumple getting Cora's first born Regina. Which Regina would not  have known since she did not know the History.

      And also that Rumple got back at Cora for deceiving him.


      Offtopic: Rose McGowan was awesome as young Cora. She totally looked a young barbara .

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    • I am pretty sure Eva did something either intentionally (she was quite the bitch back then) or otherwise that resulted in Cora losing her chance at being queen. This can be implied from the scene where Cora looks over Eva's dead body and says something along the line that she (Eva) took everything away from her.

      The part about Regina being next to be Queen in the final scenes can be explained by the fact that some amount of time must have passed between the time when Cora married Henry (when she was still fifth in line) and when she gave birth to Regina. During that time, some events may have happend to make Henry the next heir.

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    • Someone said Queen Eva could have been Prince Henry's sister and that made me laugh because that would mean Snow White is Regina's cousin. So Snow White's cousin would be her step-mother and Henry would be Regina's adoptive son and third cousin. So complicated!!!! The writer's like to pull crazy Inception like twists with relationships. "No! NO! We must go deeper with the blood line!"

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    • 68.224.133.76 wrote:
      Someone said Queen Eva could have been Prince Henry's sister and that made me laugh because that would mean Snow White is Regina's cousin. So Snow White's cousin would be her step-mother and Henry would be Regina's adoptive son and third cousin. So complicated!!!! The writer's like to pull crazy Inception like twists with relationships. "No! NO! We must go deeper with the blood line!"


      I think it is possible that Prince Henry could have been Queen Eva's cousin, or something because if royal blood line are the same in Enchanted Forest as they are in our world it is possible that they all could be related to each other. 

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    • No, she is not related to him in any way. Jane Espenson confirmed it :)

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      No, she is not related to him in any way. Jane Espenson confirmed it :)

      Looks like my theory went down the toilet.

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    • Killian Jones wrote: No, she is not related to him in any way. Jane Espenson confirmed it :)

      I really thought that there is something more important behind Cora's hate toward Eva than just simple mocking.

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    • Prince of Rascia wrote:
      Killian Jones wrote:
      No, she is not related to him in any way. Jane Espenson confirmed it :)

      I really thought that there is something more important behind Cora's hate toward Eva than just simple mocking.

      JE (Jane Espenson) said there's more about Eva to be shown.

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    • Killian Jones wrote:

      JE said there's more about Eva to be shown.

      Great news, I wonder what made Eva from 2.16 becoming Eva from 2.15.

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    • 58.185.114.117 wrote:
      I am pretty sure Eva did something either intentionally (she was quite the bitch back then) or otherwise that resulted in Cora losing her chance at being queen. This can be implied from the scene where Cora looks over Eva's dead body and says something along the line that she (Eva) took everything away from her.

      The part about Regina being next to be Queen in the final scenes can be explained by the fact that some amount of time must have passed between the time when Cora married Henry (when she was still fifth in line) and when she gave birth to Regina. During that time, some events may have happend to make Henry the next heir.


      OR Cora was just being really arrogant and presumptuous in naming Regina. The plan was for Regina to become queen one day - that doesn't mean that she was next in line right then and there. It just means that Cora was prepared to do everything in her power from that point on to ensure that Regina WOULD become queen.

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    • What if Eva found out that Cora had magic and accused her of being a witch and she had the king banish Cora & she marrried Henry's brother, Leopold . Henry followed Cora and given up his princly rights & Cora created their house for them?

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    • "Leopold and Henry followed Cora and given up his throne" What throne? Henry never had a throne. Henry has never been king.

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    • 129.81.125.232 wrote:

      OR Cora was just being really arrogant and presumptuous in naming Regina. The plan was for Regina to become queen one day - that doesn't mean that she was next in line right then and there. It just means that Cora was prepared to do everything in her power from that point on to ensure that Regina WOULD become queen.


      Dis

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    • We know it must have been something big for Cora to hold a grudge against Eva as hinted by her comments at Eva's funeral.  Eva ruined Cora's chance at being Queen and probably mocked her for being the miller's daughter. In her younger days Eva was not kind at all and we can see that Eva is not impressed when Cora spins straw into gold in "The Miller's Daughter". Also Cora's statement about making Snow White feel what it's like to be the miller's daughter seems to imply Eva denigrated her in addition to taking away her chance to be Queen. Cora may have been plotting to get rid of the other 4 heirs so she and Henry could become King and Queen but Eva found out and told on them but I also think Eva never let up on Cora being the miller's daughter to ensure that Eva and Henry never became rulers. I wonder what changed Eva's personality?

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    • Sorry, I meant Cora and Henry never became rulers.

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    • 108.244.96.127 wrote:
      We know it must have been something big for Cora to hold a grudge against Eva as hinted by her comments at Eva's funeral.  Eva ruined Cora's chance at being Queen and probably mocked her for being the miller's daughter. In her younger days Eva was not kind at all and we can see that Eva is not impressed when Cora spins straw into gold in "The Miller's Daughter". Also Cora's statement about making Snow White feel what it's like to be the miller's daughter seems to imply Eva denigrated her in addition to taking away her chance to be Queen. Cora may have been plotting to get rid of the other 4 heirs so she and Henry could become King and Queen but Eva found out and told on them but I also think Eva never let up on Cora being the miller's daughter to ensure that Eva and Henry never became rulers. I wonder what changed Eva's personality?


      Maybe they'll do a princess and the pauper type storyline where Eva becomes the peasant in a deal Cora made with Rumple to teach Eva a lesson? 

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    • ^^That'd be interesting.

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    • Okay, guys, it's been almost a year since the last post and we still have no idea what the heck happened. :O

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    • We're forgetting babies. If Cora is 5th in line with Prince Henry, anyone who has a child ahead of them would be in line for the throne before her and her children. Like whoever was next in line after Queen Victoria of England became 10th by the time she had all of her kids, and further and further from the throne as each of them had kids. 

      Cora rose from the drunk miller's daughter to a the wife of a pince, it's no small step from this position of nobility to wed her daughter to a king. The awkward part is that King Leopard didn't recognize her and is marrying his exes daughter.

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    • BabbleMonkey wrote: We're forgetting babies. If Cora is 5th in line with Prince Henry, anyone who has a child ahead of them would be in line for the throne before her and her children. Like whoever was next in line after Queen Victoria of England became 10th by the time she had all of her kids, and further and further from the throne as each of them had kids. 

      ^^^This is why Cora seemingly transferred her hopes to Regina, even going so far as to give her a name that means "Queen". I assume(d) that, from that point, she concentrated on making Regina a queen. She was already a princess, and that's no small thing... there could be any number of kingdoms that would have been interested in marrying a son to Regina, including some that would have made her Queen. Cora could have tried any number of things to facilitate that.

      I suspect she targeted Leopold for this reason. She knew she could get her daughter married to him. How exactly that went down, maybe with some coercion or mmmmmmmagic, well, we can speculate all day! (and we have)

      I wonder what she would have done if she was around, not sent to Wonderland. I'm sure she would have had a ball controlling Regina to do her bidding. Hell, she may have found that more fun than just being Queen herself.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      I wonder what she would have done if she was around, not sent to Wonderland. I'm sure she would have had a ball controlling Regina to do her bidding. Hell, she may have found that more fun than just being Queen herself.


      I guess King Leopold would be dead long before he actually died and as for Snow White, I wouldn't be surprised if Cora actually dumped Regina and started manipulating young Snow White and ruling through her instead. At some point Regina would probably show her teeth (possibly under Rumple's influence) which would make Cora using Snow White and taking advance of her being the rightful Queen.

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    • But would Snow turn out to be a Good Queen or an Evil Queen? With Cora's influence, most likely an evil queen. I could see Cora manipulating the young Snow into getting revenge because Regina killed her father. Therefore going on her promise to destroy Eva's legacy, and turning Snow's heart black as coal.

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    • I really hope sometime in Season 5 we get more insight to this topic (since we know hardly anything at the moment).

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    • I am hoping Morgana Le Fay is Cora's real Mom so that we get to see where her magical genetics come from and to see if Cora had a mother so terrible, she doesn't dare to speak of her. Also we would get a Camelot arc.

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    • Wait, I just realized something years later than I should've. Cora is the Queen of Hearts in Wonderland. And her husband is shorter than her, mild-mannered and is quite obviously terrified of her. Not to mention he's her husband. Shouldn't Henry's introductory paragraph mention that he's based off of the King of Hearts from "Alice's Adventures In Wonderland"? It currently doesn't mention any particular literary roles, making it seem like he's an original character.

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    • I believe this was discussed before, and the conclusion was that, as Prince Henry never acts as the King of Hearts (indeed, Cora kept him in a box!) he's not really based on that character. It's not the first time a meek husband has been over-shadowed by a strong wife. XD

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    • However, that is the character of the King of Hearts. He is meek and completely dominated by the real threat and controlling Queen of Hearts. Plus, who's married to the Queen of Hearts?

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    • ^^ That was the (somewhat weak) counter argument. XD

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      However, that is the character of the King of Hearts. He is meek and completely dominated by the real threat and controlling Queen of Hearts. Plus, who's married to the Queen of Hearts?

      That personality is not unique to the King of Hearts, and being married to Cora doesn't make him a King (in the sense that Cora likely just made up the title for herself lol)

      This was already discussed some time ago. The "Based on the King of Hearts" line was on Henry's article, and was removed based on the discussion. No need to beat a dead horse. ;-)

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    • Even if he is not based on the King of Hearts, he is clearly an allusion to him. And on some character pages, we add the fact some characters are an allusion to another one. I kinda agree with Eskaver on this one :)

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    • Then put it in trivia, however, (as was already discussed and decided) it is not appropriate for the intro.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      Then put it in trivia, however, (as was already discussed and decided) it is not appropriate for the intro.

      I think that's a good compromise, although there's likely other articles this applies to...

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      Even if he is not based on the King of Hearts, he is clearly an allusion to him. And on some character pages, we add the fact some characters are an allusion to another one. I kinda agree with Eskaver on this one :)

      True. Ursula (Witch) is an allusion to Ariel and Regina is an allusion to Ursula (Disney), and both of these roles are in their intros. But then again, Emma has been stated quite a few times to be based off of the Ugly Duckling, but that's never been added, so who knows? This is a bit confusing.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Even if he is not based on the King of Hearts, he is clearly an allusion to him. And on some character pages, we add the fact some characters are an allusion to another one. I kinda agree with Eskaver on this one :)
      True. Ursula (Witch) is an allusion to Ariel and Regina is an allusion to Ursula (Disney), and both of these roles are in their intros. But then again, Emma has been stated quite a few times to be based off of the Ugly Duckling, but that's never been added, so who knows? This is a bit confusing.

      Not exactly: both Ursula and Regina functionally play the role of Ariel and… err… well, Ursula, respectively, in the two retellings of The Little Mermaid. Prince Henry doesn't have the functional role of the King of Hearts because he's barely included in Cora's Wonderland misdeeds other than being kidnapped. If anything, he functionally plays the prince from The Miller's Daughter: that's the role we've seen him fit the most, in relation to Cora.

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    • GothicNarcissus wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Lady Junky wrote:
      Even if he is not based on the King of Hearts, he is clearly an allusion to him. And on some character pages, we add the fact some characters are an allusion to another one. I kinda agree with Eskaver on this one :)
      True. Ursula (Witch) is an allusion to Ariel and Regina is an allusion to Ursula (Disney), and both of these roles are in their intros. But then again, Emma has been stated quite a few times to be based off of the Ugly Duckling, but that's never been added, so who knows? This is a bit confusing.
      Not exactly: both Ursula and Regina functionally play the role of Ariel and… err… well, Ursula, respectively, in the two retellings of The Little Mermaid. Prince Henry doesn't have the functional role of the King of Hearts because he's barely included in Cora's Wonderland misdeeds other than being kidnapped. If anything, he functionally plays the prince from The Miller's Daughter: that's the role we've seen him fit the most, in relation to Cora.

      Oh. It's just that the reason I'm so confused is that the Story page for Alice in Wonderland lists the King Of Hearts on its page of adapted characters, leading to Henry's page. (And even though this is less important, the Disney Wikia lists Henry on the King's page. But they also put Red Queen Ana in Anastasia Tremaine's page without confirmation on-screen...)

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    • I had noticed that too Edward and was going to add it to Henry's (Regina's Dad) page. I think that the allusion to the King of Hearts is strong enough for it to be added to the intro. Besides, she was keeping him in a heart box, right? As we saw on Wonderland, the heart boxes are labeled like a deck of playing cards, so it's fair to assume Henry was put in the King of Hearts box.

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    • Emma is not based on the ugly ducking. Her last name is a vague allusion to it, nothing more lol.

      Clearly, some articles need to be corrected.

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    • Lady Junky wrote: Even if he is not based on the King of Hearts, he is clearly an allusion to him. And on some character pages, we add the fact some characters are an allusion to another one. I kinda agree with Eskaver on this one :)

      If, by your own statement, he is not based on, the article should not say he is...

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      Lady Junky wrote: Even if he is not based on the King of Hearts, he is clearly an allusion to him. And on some character pages, we add the fact some characters are an allusion to another one. I kinda agree with Eskaver on this one :)

      If, by your own statement, he is not based on, the article should not say he is...


      I never said it should be put as "based on". I agree with Eskaver on the fact it could be in the intro sentence as "allusion to" ;)

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    • But that's not what you said ;) no need to try to save face lol

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    • But I also never said what you're pretending I said :)

      Anyways, you're right JesseJane. We have some pages which have "allusion to" in their intro sentence; like Jiminy's parents ^^

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    • Nope, but you clearly were agreeing with Eskaver's suggestion of putting the based on in the intro, and didn't say anything about changing the wording. No need to pretend, cuz I'm not, and you'll see no fake smiley here.

      It's something you do, that may be a language thing, that you should be aware of.

      Or at least be clearer about what you're saying.

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    • Solly, hormones.

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    • Jesse's right, I apologize.

      I think we need to look at our articles to make some kind of conformity in these situations

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      Jesse's right, I apologize.

      I think we need to look at our articles to make some kind of conformity in these situations

      I think it's okay to have it in the intro sentence regardless if it is a direct basis, like Snow White is fairy tale Snow White or Ariel is Disney's Ariel and fairy tale Little Mermaid, or more of a general allusion, like Henry is the King of Hearts or Red is Rose Red. Either way, they took inspiration from a soruce and created their own mythos around it. Some are just subtler than others.

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    • See, that's where I disagree. I don't feel that, in our example, Henry is actually based on the King of Hearts, or truly drawn from him. More like, his wife ursurped that role, but he wasnt even thought about in it. It's not the same as, say, Snow White, and, at least imo, should not be noted in the same place as actual character inspirations, like Prince Charming or Cinderella. It's almost misleading to do so.

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    • Well, he is! He doesn't have to be in Wonderland being ignored or dominated by his wife, the Queen of Hearts. I mean the husband of the queen is the king, and Henry has similar characteristics of the King of Hearts.

      Frome Sparknotes: The King of Hearts - The coruler of Wonderland. The King is ineffectual and generally unlikeable, but lacks the Queen’s ruthlessness and undoes her orders of execution.

      Well, Henry didn't do the undoing of executions, but then again the QoH didn't take people's hearts in the book.

      Like the Red King, he was a bit more subtle. I would have guessed the White King simply because he was wearing white, but then they mentioned he was the Red King.

      Henry isn't directly based on him, but is definitely an allusion to. Most could see when Regina's parents both showed up, that they would definitely be the King and Queen of Hearts if Cora was indeed Queen of Hearts.

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    • His wife being the Queen of Hearts doesn't mean he ever acted In that capacity, nor does it make him based on that character simply because he may have had that title. For all we know, Cora kidnapped him a week before Regina regained him, or she had him in that box for years lol.

      I'm not arguing against including something in trivia, I'm saying it's not appropriate, imo, for the intro, and has already been debated. Of course, we can debate it again, just seems kind of silly to me. But that's my opinion, and if I'm out voted I'm outvoted. Lol.

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    • He doesn't have to act in that capacity to be an allusion to it. He is the husband; he is ineffectual; he has quite a diminished stature. He has the traits and even married to the person with the confirmed title.

      Example: Liz, or Lizard, is based on or alluded to Bill the Lizard. Bill the Lizard was a useless person on trial or something. Liz on Wonderland was a girl, effective, and a crush on the Knave of Hearts. By that logic, she isn't close to being Bill the Lizard from the books.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Well, he is! He doesn't have to be in Wonderland being ignored or dominated by his wife, the Queen of Hearts. I mean the husband of the queen is the king, and Henry has similar characteristics of the King of Hearts.

      Frome Sparknotes: The King of Hearts - The coruler of Wonderland. The King is ineffectual and generally unlikeable, but lacks the Queen’s ruthlessness and undoes her orders of execution.

      Well, Henry didn't do the undoing of executions, but then again the QoH didn't take people's hearts in the book.

      Like the Red King, he was a bit more subtle. I would have guessed the White King simply because he was wearing white, but then they mentioned he was the Red King.

      Henry isn't directly based on him, but is definitely an allusion to. Most could see when Regina's parents both showed up, that they would definitely be the King and Queen of Hearts if Cora was indeed Queen of Hearts.

      (Since we're on the Internet, this may come out as bit rude, and I don't mean it that way)

      Have you read the novels? You're quoting Sparknotes, which is not the same thing, it's made for students who are too lazy to read/need help remembering the broadstrokes of literature (I used in school myself when I disliked a novel)

      It seems like your argument is largely "Well she's the queen so he MUST be based on the king" and that just doesn't hold water. The King of Hearts in the novels has a fully formed personality that really isn't all that much like Henry's (there are similarities, but it feels more like conincidense to me. I doubt they planned for him to be King of Hearts back in 102)

      This is OUaT, a unique story, and just because the Queen's husband is the King of Hearts in the book doesn't make Cora's husband that. Heck, maybe they were divorced at the time! (Wouldn't that be a gas?)

      I think you might be missing the point...

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    • Well, read my response above, lol.

      I was using some sources that can be checked. My argument is that he has similarities and is involved with Wonderland in a small capacity, husband of Cora, and that the counterargument doesn't make up for what has been said.

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    • Also adding:

      He doesn't have a "quite a diminished stature". 

      (In fairness, Regina appears to be about an inch or two taller, but she's quite tall, often wears heels, and older people tend to shrink.) There are some slight similarities if you look hard enough, but Henry is nowhere as short as described or depicted in the novels.


      Also, I'm really enjoying this debate! It's quite fun.

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    • I don't think "husband of Cora" is a valid reason to say he's based on a character.

      Based on and alluded are very different, we should be careful of treating them the same.

      I agree with Solly's suggestion that it be placed in trivia.

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    • JesseJane wrote:
      I don't think "husband of Cora" is a valid reason to say he's based on a character.

      Based on and alluded are very different, we should be careful of treating them the same.

      I agree with Solly's suggestion that it be placed in trivia.

      I concur.

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    • JesseJane wrote: Also adding:

      He doesn't have a "quite a diminished stature". 

      (In fairness, Regina appears to be about an inch or two taller, but she's quite tall, often wears heels, and older people tend to shrink.) There are some slight similarities if you look hard enough, but Henry is nowhere as short as described or depicted in the novels.


      Also, I'm really enjoying this debate! It's quite fun.

      I am too. And to counter that "not as short as in the books", Rapunzel doesn't have golden hair either. Not everything will be exact. I would almost commit some sort of fallacy or something, but I gave you evidence, so show me your evidence that opposes mine besides physical appearance.

      My evidence:

      1) Ineffectual and submissive state in the relationship with his wife

      2) Married to the Queen of Hearts and in Wonderland in a diminished form for a brief period of time

      3) Not all characters are completely the same or as obvious as their originals.

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    • How about "just because he's married to someone based on a character, doesn't make him based on that character's spouse in the original work?"

      You have the burden of proof sir, not the opposition.

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    • SomethingBob wrote:

      JesseJane wrote:
      I don't think "husband of Cora" is a valid reason to say he's based on a character.

      Based on and alluded are very different, we should be careful of treating them the same.

      I agree with Solly's suggestion that it be placed in trivia.

      I concur.

      Well, I say alludes to. And in the trivia, sure!

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    • Then we agree? lulz I think we just like debating.

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    • SomethingBob wrote: How about "just because he's married to someone based on a character, doesn't make him based on that character's spouse in the original work?"

      You have the burden of proof sir, not the opposition.

      Well, I proved it and I proved that not all characters on Once are greatly similar to their counterparts, i.e. Liz/Bill the Lizard, Rapunzel not having golden hair.

      The only thing I can say is that Will became the White King, I would never say he is based on him whatsoever.

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    • i think Jesse may feel you're digging, is all. Rapunzel and Liz are actually and truly based on those characters, the minor changes are moot. This is a different case.

      It doesn't matter, add it to trivia :D

      It's great fun watching these debates lol

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    • JesseJane wrote: Then we agree? lulz I think we just like debating.

      Oh, I just came on this thread to defend Henry being an allusion to the King of Hearts. I mean it's not like he was a completely original character, like Neal or something.

      And lol, I didn't know of the debate of alludes vs based.

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    • But then you get into these epic and passionate debates XD

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    • I'm standing by my point on this. To me he is clearly the King of Hearts for the points Eskaver stated. If we're going to say Henry does not have enough evidence to be the King of Hearts, then we need to reanaylize what we have on like half the character's pages. I mean King George being the King from The Prince and The Pauper is definitly a bigger stretch. As is Snow White and Red Riding Hood alluding to Snow White and Rose Red. And I don't see how we can possibly say a human girl name Elizabeth is the same thing as a male anthrophmorphic lizard named Bill then. They literally have nothing in common, other than they live in Wonderland. Maybe that means Elizabeth is The Dutchess then, I mean at least they are both human and female. Do you see how saying Henry is not the King of Hearts effects literally everything we have said about everyone on this wiki? It's a slippery slope.

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    • If I'm outvoted, I'm outvoted, but I stand my opinion and suggestions and the fact that it was already discussed, at least this particular case. I'm never a fan of "well this article has this so this one should too!", so if need be, we should examine other articles that this applies to. I'm not at all saying we shouldn't note allusions, but an allusion isn't the same as being directly drawn from a character in a previous work, and that difference should be noted. Imo, it should be in trivia, or the word "allusion" should be use in intros where it applies.

      Or not. Just my opinion XD

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    • I think using the word "allusion" is a good compromise. The info is still in the introduction, but the distinction is made.

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    • I totally didn't mean to kickstart any kind of heated argument or anything. I just brought it up because the Story page for Wonderland directly links Henry's page to it and calls him the King of Hearts.

      I guess we'd need the story of how Cora kidnapped him (and why!) to fully understand if Henry is the King of Hearts or not. Maybe she kidnapped him, offered him the opportunity to rule with her on the condition that he never goes back to Regina, he refuses and she locks him in that box.

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    • Oh don't apologize, debates are fun! :D Clearly it's something we needed to discuss either way.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      If I'm outvoted, I'm outvoted, but I stand my opinion and suggestions and the fact that it was already discussed, at least this particular case. I'm never a fan of "well this article has this so this one should too!", so if need be, we should examine other articles that this applies to. I'm not at all saying we shouldn't note allusions, but an allusion isn't the same as being directly drawn from a character in a previous work, and that difference should be noted. Imo, it should be in trivia, or the word "allusion" should be use in intros where it applies.

      Or not. Just my opinion XD

      I'm good with using allusion in the intro for characters that are less concrete. Honestly, I thought that was what we have already been doing anyway. And I don't think anyone was getting heated Edward, we we're just debating which is what a community based encylopedia needs to do, as their is not only one "head". It's like our own little Hydra (shout out to another show on ABC, I'm sure some of you will get it).

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    • It is in a way, as we specially call out when characters take the place of someone (like Rumple being everybody), but this is a logical next step. (love your Hydra reference)

      I'm already on a project that involves me looking at every article... I'm going to note allusions where it applies as I do so. (I'll make sure to note in edit summaries so if I err or someone disagrees, it can be discussed) :)

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      It is in a way, as we specially call out when characters take the place of someone (like Rumple being everybody), but this is a logical next step. (love your Hydra reference)

      I'm already on a project that involves me looking at every article... I'm going to note allusions where it applies as I do so. (I'll make sure to note in edit summaries so if I err or someone disagrees, it can be discussed) :)

      Sounds good. The place where it gets trickest is with things like Emma alluding to The Ugly Duckling (with last name and how she didn't fit in until she came to Storybrooke and fufilled her saviour role), and with Rochiante, Regina's horse, being named the same thing as Don Quotixe's horse, but sharing none of the characteristics. Do things like these deserve top of article treatment, or should they stay in trivia? Also, glad your going through every article and looking for this, because I noticed recently while the characters pages are pretty good with noting where they originated, the items are not. I'm pretty sure I was on the Silver Shoes page and no note was made that the shoes are from the story The Wizard of Oz, for example. Lastly (for now at least XD), what do you think about noteing things on the species pages? Like on the fairies page, something like "Fairies are commonly found in fantasy literature dating back to [year]." Something like that. This would apply to the majority of the species on the show, including: Fairies, Dwaves, Ogres, Dragons, Genies, Mermaids, Giants, Unicorns, Werewolves, and Wraiths.

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    • I'm conflicted about Emma in particular because the creators just mentioned using the name. However, that's personal opinion, and I wouldn't be biffed about putting it in the intro.

      I would say things like Rocianthe, where it's literally just a name and nothing more, should remain in trivia.

      However, I love your idea of adding this to items, and definitely love the idea of giving species pages some historical context.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      I'm conflicted about Emma in particular because the creators just mentioned using the name. However, that's personal opinion, and I wouldn't be biffed about putting it in the intro.

      I would say things like Rocianthe, where it's literally just a name and nothing more, should remain in trivia.

      However, I love your idea of adding this to items, and definitely love the idea of giving species pages some historical context.

      Yay! Glad you like my ideas. Also, I believe some locations also are missing notes of where they originated. Most of the worlds and all of the named kingdoms in FTL have a book or Disney movie origin.

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    • All over it :)

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    • To my understanding Prince Henry didn't have any siblings and his father was King. They lived in a castle and had royal guards under his command. I don't remember Cora ever saying she was fifth in line to become queen it wouldn't make sense. With that being said their Kingdom should have been rich because Cora could spin straw into Gold.

      The reason I think Cora wanted Regina to become Queen of Leopold's kingdom is so that they could merge the Kingdoms and she could dispose of the royal family leaving Regina queen of both Kingdoms.

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    • KnocknickKnock wrote: To my understanding Prince Henry didn't have any siblings and his father was King. They lived in a castle and had royal guards under his command. I don't remember Cora ever saying she was fifth in line to become queen it wouldn't make sense.

      Cora does indeed say that she is fifth in line to be queen. In the scene where she is talking to Rumple while wearing her white wedding dress, she says, "You know, I thought I wanted this. White and bright, all the admiration. But then I look at it. Fifth in line to be Queen. That won’t happen without an awful lot of bloodshed."

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    • ^^^^ You might be correct but we know Cora becomes Queen because they are living in a castle and Henry talks about how Leopold has made Regina a prisoner in her own Kingdom which makes since. This take place at Regina castle which is different from the one Snow and Charming resided when they took back their kingdom and got married in.

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    • KnocknickKnock wrote:
      To my understanding Prince Henry didn't have any siblings and his father was King. They lived in a castle and had royal guards under his command. I don't remember Cora ever saying she was fifth in line to become queen it wouldn't make sense. With that being said their Kingdom should have been rich because Cora could spin straw into Gold.

      The reason I think Cora wanted Regina to become Queen of Leopold's kingdom is so that they could merge the Kingdoms and she could dispose of the royal family leaving Regina queen of both Kingdoms.

      They lived in an estate, not a castle, per say. Plus, kingdoms are known for having more than one castle. Leopold's kingdom had at least 2 (The spaceship one and the Summer Palace). So, it's likely, they just moved to one of the royal family's summer homes.

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    • KnocknickKnock wrote:
      ^^^^ You might be correct but we know Cora becomes Queen because they are living in a castle and Henry talks about how Leopold has made Regina a prisoner in her own Kingdom which makes since. This take place at Regina castle which is different from the one Snow and Charming resided when they took back their kingdom and got married in.

      Cora and Henry lived in a mansion, not a palace. They were a prince and princess, those tend to live in mansions even if they are not the throne holders.

      Also, Regina's castle is Leopold's castle. She's referring to how she is now queen of Leopold's kingdom and he is holding her prisoner in the kingdom she now owns (Leopold's) and Charming and Snow move into King George's palace, which I find ironic since Charming holds no claim to that palace at all, other than being the twin brother of the real Prince.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      KnocknickKnock wrote:
      ^^^^ You might be correct but we know Cora becomes Queen because they are living in a castle and Henry talks about how Leopold has made Regina a prisoner in her own Kingdom which makes since. This take place at Regina castle which is different from the one Snow and Charming resided when they took back their kingdom and got married in.
      Cora and Henry lived in a mansion, not a palace. They were a prince and princess, those tend to live in mansions even if they are not the throne holders.

      Also, Regina's castle is Leopold's castle. She's referring to how she is now queen of Leopold's kingdom and he is holding her prisoner in the kingdom she now owns (Leopold's) and Charming and Snow move into King George's palace, which I find ironic since Charming holds no claim to that palace at all, other than being the twin brother of the real Prince.

      Charming and Snow claim it via combat. Snow defeated King George and deposed him after taking back the kingdom with Chamring again.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      KnocknickKnock wrote:
      ^^^^ You might be correct but we know Cora becomes Queen because they are living in a castle and Henry talks about how Leopold has made Regina a prisoner in her own Kingdom which makes since. This take place at Regina castle which is different from the one Snow and Charming resided when they took back their kingdom and got married in.
      Cora and Henry lived in a mansion, not a palace. They were a prince and princess, those tend to live in mansions even if they are not the throne holders.

      Also, Regina's castle is Leopold's castle. She's referring to how she is now queen of Leopold's kingdom and he is holding her prisoner in the kingdom she now owns (Leopold's) and Charming and Snow move into King George's palace, which I find ironic since Charming holds no claim to that palace at all, other than being the twin brother of the real Prince.

      Charming and Snow claim it via combat. Snow defeated King George and deposed him after taking back the kingdom with Chamring again.

      That's my point, it wasn't Snow and Charming's kingdom to take back. Only Regina's kingdom was fair game.

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    • That's true, but they took the kingdom to depose tyranny. (Yeah, I know that King George was a relatively good king that actually thought about the peasants, unlike some couple I know....)

      In the novel, I think, Snow and co actually deposed George (temp) when she searched for Charming and before she went under the sleeping curse. Following that, she awoke and they took back Snow's kingdom from Regina, however, they still had a remnant of King George's forces to face in the outlining villages.

      That's the way I see it and it would make sense if it actually happened in a few months.

      But that's a whole other topic, lol.

      (Another off-topic question is why Leopold's castle looks like that. As seen with Belle, the dungeon she was in was in one of the blade things, while Charming was underneath, lol)

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      KnocknickKnock wrote:
      ^^^^ You might be correct but we know Cora becomes Queen because they are living in a castle and Henry talks about how Leopold has made Regina a prisoner in her own Kingdom which makes since. This take place at Regina castle which is different from the one Snow and Charming resided when they took back their kingdom and got married in.
      Cora and Henry lived in a mansion, not a palace. They were a prince and princess, those tend to live in mansions even if they are not the throne holders.

      Also, Regina's castle is Leopold's castle. She's referring to how she is now queen of Leopold's kingdom and he is holding her prisoner in the kingdom she now owns (Leopold's) and Charming and Snow move into King George's palace, which I find ironic since Charming holds no claim to that palace at all, other than being the twin brother of the real Prince.

      Charming and Snow claim it via combat. Snow defeated King George and deposed him after taking back the kingdom with Chamring again.
      That's my point, it wasn't Snow and Charming's kingdom to take back. Only Regina's kingdom was fair game.

      George was using David as a replacement for James, and he probably intended to give the kingdom to James had he not died, so David kind of had some claim to it. George had no one else to give it to anyway, so someone was going to have to take over.

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    • Regina was a princess before she married Leopold. Henry's father was King Xavier and he wasn't shown to have any siblings. If he was just Royal and not King her would have been called Lord Xavier not King Xavier. Also Snow White claimed her kingdom and castle back from Regina. If you look at Snow flashbacks with her mother Eva the Castle they are in looks nothing like the Castle Regina is in. Also the tree from Regina child hood is at that palace. Also Regina was banished from Snow and charming's kingdom and I doubt they let her stay in the castle if she was in their kingdom. Also she retained all her Guards after Snow and charming took the kingdom back.

      That was clearly Regina home before she married Leopold. Royals get married to royals all the time look at Eva. Everything points that castle belonging to Regina. Especially since Snow said she wanted to defeat Regina and reclaim her childhood home.

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    • KnocknickKnock wrote:
      Regina was a princess before she married Leopold. Henry's father was King Xavier and he wasn't shown to have any siblings. If he was just Royal and not King her would have been called Lord Xavier not King Xavier. Also Snow White claimed her kingdom and castle back from Regina. If you look at Snow flashbacks with her mother Eva the Castle they are in looks nothing like the Castle Regina is in. Also the tree from Regina child hood is at that palace. Also Regina was banished from Snow and charming's kingdom and I doubt they let her stay in the castle if she was in their kingdom. Also she retained all her Guards after Snow and charming took the kingdom back.

      That was clearly Regina home before she married Leopold. Royals get married to royals all the time look at Eva. Everything points that castle belonging to Regina. Especially since Snow said she wanted to defeat Regina and reclaim her childhood home.

      Henry wasn't shown to have siblings, but he must've had at least 2, since Cora said she was 5th in line for the throne (Xavier, his wife, any siblings of Xavier or Henry, Henry, then Cora). That's how monarchies work.

      And the reason Regina's palace doesn't look the same as Eva's is explained in "The Heart Is A Lonely Hunter". Leopold had a white palace, Regina turned it black after she killed him. But Regina's room is Eva's room. And she mentioned in both "Fruit Of The Forbidden Tree" and "Mother" that the tree was from her parents' estate and was dug up and moved to the palace by Leopold as a show of good faith towards Regina.

      Again, Snow and Charming invaded King George's kingdom, which was not the same as Regina's. They moved into his palace, and since Regina is... you know, MAGICAL, she got to stay in her palace 'cause she probably killed anyone who came close to it.

      In 3B, Snow actually says something along the lines of "I can't believe we're here in this palace again." That was the home she grew up in.

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    • Yes, Edward is right.  That is also why Snow said that they were moving into the palace in season 3 and Regina mentions how she married into it.

      This is also clear because Henry's estate is in the midst of fields and looks nothing like Leopold's castle or even Xavier's castle.

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    • One point to the line to the throne. Spouses generally do not have claim to the throne unless they are legimate heirs in their own right, and then they have their own position in the pecking order.

      To be 5th in line at the time, all Henry would have needed is 1 older sibling with a couple of nieces/nephews.  The King is obviously first, then the older sibling (probably male, but wouldn't have to be), then their oldest child, then the second oldest child, then finally Henry.  Cora would NEVER have a place in line for the throne, except as the wife of the ruling Monarch. Regina would likely be next in line after Henry. (Yes, Zelena is older, but is not of the Royal Bloodline, and is a bastard child besides).

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    • I agree with what 129.210.115.4 wrote: 

      It's quite possible that King Xavier's kingdom collapsed before they could ascend to the throne...and when [Eva] married Leopold, she created a merger between their kingdoms, leaving Henry and Cora as duke and duchess, but not queen and king.

      Yes. I paraphrased. But it is a possibility. I also think that the kingodm collapsed because Cora murdered Xavier – maybe she got tired of him interfering with her plans – and her constant coercing of her weak husband resulted in other kingdoms declaring war. Thoughts?

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    • Eva and Leopold are both from different kingdoms, not from Xavier's.

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    • Yes. I paraphrased. But it is a possibility. I also think that the kingodm collapsed because Cora murdered Xavier – maybe she got tired of him interfering with her plans – and her constant coercing of her weak husband resulted in other kingdoms declaring war. Thoughts?

      I saw no hint of this.  Cora and Henry were not living in Xavier's castle at the time Regina married Leopold.  They were not the ruling couple of Xavier's kingdom.  If Cora had killed Xavier and those who stood in line for the throne before Henry, they would have been ruling Xavier's kingdom.  They weren't.

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    • Why are you people so adamant about not using the "QUOTE" button? It makes following these threads so confusing if you don't.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Why are you people so adamant about not using the "QUOTE" button? It makes following these threads so confusing if you don't.

      Stay on topic! (I only don't use the qoute if it's a small thread) But yeah, quoting makes the comments easier to follow!

      It could just be that Cora didn't kill anyone (in the family) and just moved to Leopold's kingdom, which is neighboring. Cora knew that she would have to kill her way to the throne, but she didn't seem like she would go through with that plan and I assume set up the "Regina" plan.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Why are you people so adamant about not using the "QUOTE" button? It makes following these threads so confusing if you don't.
      Stay on topic! (I only don't use the qoute if it's a small thread) But yeah, quoting makes the comments easier to follow!

      It could just be that Cora didn't kill anyone (in the family) and just moved to Leopold's kingdom, which is neighboring. Cora knew that she would have to kill her way to the throne, but she didn't seem like she would go through with that plan and I assume set up the "Regina" plan.

      Which still involved killing Eva. She was obviously willing to kill, as shown by her large reserves of hearts under her mansion. So why didn't she kill the four people ahead of her for the throne? After all, she wouldn't be the first monarch to spill some blood.

      I think Rumple ruined her chances to become queen as revenge for dumping him, which is why she focused on having a child do her revenge for her.

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Why are you people so adamant about not using the "QUOTE" button? It makes following these threads so confusing if you don't.
      Stay on topic! (I only don't use the qoute if it's a small thread) But yeah, quoting makes the comments easier to follow!

      It could just be that Cora didn't kill anyone (in the family) and just moved to Leopold's kingdom, which is neighboring. Cora knew that she would have to kill her way to the throne, but she didn't seem like she would go through with that plan and I assume set up the "Regina" plan.

      Which still involved killing Eva. She was obviously willing to kill, as shown by her large reserves of hearts under her mansion. So why didn't she kill the four people ahead of her for the throne? After all, she wouldn't be the first monarch to spill some blood.

      I think Rumple ruined her chances to become queen as revenge for dumping him, which is why she focused on having a child do her revenge for her.

      Maybe Xavier's kingdom was small, and Cora would rather her daughter be Queen of a much larger kingdom. Makes about as much sense as anything.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Why are you people so adamant about not using the "QUOTE" button? It makes following these threads so confusing if you don't.
      Stay on topic! (I only don't use the qoute if it's a small thread) But yeah, quoting makes the comments easier to follow!

      It could just be that Cora didn't kill anyone (in the family) and just moved to Leopold's kingdom, which is neighboring. Cora knew that she would have to kill her way to the throne, but she didn't seem like she would go through with that plan and I assume set up the "Regina" plan.

      Which still involved killing Eva. She was obviously willing to kill, as shown by her large reserves of hearts under her mansion. So why didn't she kill the four people ahead of her for the throne? After all, she wouldn't be the first monarch to spill some blood.

      I think Rumple ruined her chances to become queen as revenge for dumping him, which is why she focused on having a child do her revenge for her.

      Maybe Xavier's kingdom was small, and Cora would rather her daughter be Queen of a much larger kingdom. Makes about as much sense as anything.

      A queen is a Queen, no matter the size of the kingdom. Plus, size doesn't equal power. England is relatively small and it still controlled the majority of the world a few centuries ago, and Cora can spin straw into gold.

      So a small but wealthy kingdom, a princess determined to be queen... What went wrong?

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    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Why are you people so adamant about not using the "QUOTE" button? It makes following these threads so confusing if you don't.
      Stay on topic! (I only don't use the qoute if it's a small thread) But yeah, quoting makes the comments easier to follow!

      It could just be that Cora didn't kill anyone (in the family) and just moved to Leopold's kingdom, which is neighboring. Cora knew that she would have to kill her way to the throne, but she didn't seem like she would go through with that plan and I assume set up the "Regina" plan.

      Which still involved killing Eva. She was obviously willing to kill, as shown by her large reserves of hearts under her mansion. So why didn't she kill the four people ahead of her for the throne? After all, she wouldn't be the first monarch to spill some blood.

      I think Rumple ruined her chances to become queen as revenge for dumping him, which is why she focused on having a child do her revenge for her.

      Maybe Xavier's kingdom was small, and Cora would rather her daughter be Queen of a much larger kingdom. Makes about as much sense as anything.
      A queen is a Queen, no matter the size of the kingdom. Plus, size doesn't equal power. England is relatively small and it still controlled the majority of the world a few centuries ago, and Cora can spin straw into gold.

      So a small but wealthy kingdom, a princess determined to be queen... What went wrong?

      Most people may be happy with ruling a small but wealthy kingdom, but Cora's main attribute is her lust for power. She's always looking for it, even when she has it. She got her daughter to be queen (of what seems to be a rather large kingdom), you think she would be happy, right? Wrong, she proceeds to take over a big portion of Wonderland (and she chooses to do this over finding a way to get back to her daughter, mind you). When she finally does find a way (which by the way, not that hard to find the portal making rabbit that it took her so long), she proceeds to attempt to get her daughter pregnant so she can have an heir to the throne. In conclusion, one little kingdom was never going to cut it for Cora, she wanted a dynasty.

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    • When she finally does find a way (which by the way, not that hard to find the portal making rabbit that it took her so long), she proceeds to attempt to get her daughter pregnant so she can have an heir to the throne. In conclusion, one little kingdom was never going to cut it for Cora, she wanted a dynasty.



      The problem is that none of us really know if that was Cora's only intention in the "Mother" flashbacks.  Judging from her last words to Regina, I get the feeling that she genuinely wanted to make amends for Daniel's death.  But it is also possible that she also wanted to ensure that Regina would produce a grandchild through whom she can wield more power.  

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    • CTrent29 wrote:
      When she finally does find a way (which by the way, not that hard to find the portal making rabbit that it took her so long), she proceeds to attempt to get her daughter pregnant so she can have an heir to the throne. In conclusion, one little kingdom was never going to cut it for Cora, she wanted a dynasty.



      The problem is that none of us really know if that was Cora's only intention in the "Mother" flashbacks.  Judging from her last words to Regina, I get the feeling that she genuinely wanted to make amends for Daniel's death.  But it is also possible that she also wanted to ensure that Regina would produce a grandchild through whom she can wield more power.  

      Just like Rumple is addicted to magic, Cora is addicted to power. She very easily could've started out with good intentions then years down the line have decided "Hey, maybe I'll rule over Leopold's kingdom like I should've from the start."

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    • Also, Cora relied on what I would call stealth.  Yea, she could kill a bunch of people, but many times, she wanted things to happen that could not be traced immediately back to her.  Xavier had no magic, yet he managed to manipulate Cora when she was about to kill him.

      Cora and Rumple are both about manipulation as much as magic. And that requires working behind the scenes, and making sure actions are not traceable.

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    • Just like Rumple is addicted to magic, Cora is addicted to power.


      Power meant as much to Rumplestiltskin as it did to Cora. That's why he had asked Regina to make him the most wealthy citizen in the new "land" (aka Storybrooke) before she cast the first curse.

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    • Fij30jigh110 wrote:
      As we could see, Cora was quite meant to become the Queen. What do you guys think happened between The Miller's Daugher and The Stable Boy for Cora and Henry not to become King and Queen?

      By the way, Eva is not Henry's elder sister.

      Nothing happened between the Miller's daughter and the stable boy -- Daniel, the stable boy, was Regina's love. Cora loved no one but Cora. She had the hots for Rumpel, but her love was for power not posterity. Cora got knocked up by the gardener in Ava's kingdom. not the stable boy. The stable boy was Regina's faux pas and the Miller's daughter -Cora- killed him to keep him and Regina apart.

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    • 67.168.180.205 wrote:
      I bet my money on a rejected Rumpel doing something.

      The fact that Rumpel lost Bae in his lust for power made for his motivation for everything. He was birthed to two unredeemable characters...and rejected by everyone except those who could use him and truly loved only by the sweet astute but simple Belle. Eventually, he almost lost a second son ... almost.

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    • CTrent29 wrote:
      When she finally does find a way (which by the way, not that hard to find the portal making rabbit that it took her so long), she proceeds to attempt to get her daughter pregnant so she can have an heir to the throne. In conclusion, one little kingdom was never going to cut it for Cora, she wanted a dynasty. The problem is that none of us really know if that was Cora's only intention in the "Mother" flashbacks.  Judging from her last words to Regina, I get the feeling that she genuinely wanted to make amends for Daniel's death.  But it is also possible that she also wanted to ensure that Regina would produce a grandchild through whom she can wield more power.  


      She never got that grandchild, only an adopted grandson that was not blood-related to her, but to Rumpel. #familyties

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    • 67.168.180.205 wrote:
      I understand why Rumpel had such a violent reaction to Belle in Skin Deep now. He was rejected by Milah because he was a coward, and was left to raise Bae by himself, crippled no less. Eventually he gained power as the Dark One, and used his powers to murder Milah because she chosed to be with Hook instead of him.

      Cora fell in love with the power-hungry Rumpel and wanted to be with him, what is ironic is that she also chosed something else over him, power itself. Even with himself no longer a "coward" Rumpel still gets rejected. After that blow he probably felt like no one could ever love him. 

      P.S I loved it how it was Rumbelle feels that finally reconnected Nealfire and Mr. Gold! ^_^

      1) Rumpel never "gained power" - he was gifted with it by the prior Dark One, who told him he chose Rumpel because he knew how to recognize a "desperate soul." Rumpel was desperate to save his son and ended up being addicted to the power, which actually made him even MORE of a coward. He lost the crutch and started using magic as a crutch. He simply exchanged one act of cowardice for another.

      2) If Cora actually loved Rumpel so much that she ripped out her own heart, it means Rumpel was not only rejected by Mila but also by Cora as well as both of his parents. It wasn't just Cora's rejection that cut him to the core. As evil and vile as he was, one begins to horridly understand why Rumpel behaves the way he does and believes himself so unlovable that the only thing he could make love to was that dagger.

      3) Rumpel's reaction to Belle was a direct result of Rumpel's own actions. In his quest to be respected, he relinquished love.

      In a Twilight-Zone-ish replay, we see Regina get her wish only to have it fail -- not just because people fought her back once they woke up in Storybrooke, but because Regina realized that happiness only had a very short reach when people love you because you force it and not because they actually care.

      Even in Twilight Zone, this crooked man runs up on a character named PIP and realizes he got everything he wanted in the end...but only after he was burning in the pits of hell.

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    • 98.209.224.209 wrote:
      She mentioned that she was fifth in line to be queen, and that it wouldn't happen without a lot of blood she. My guess is that there wasn't a lot of bloodshed, so without her heart to complicate the matter, she simply used to conniving ways to ensure the future for Regina to become Queen.

      Once Cora became a princess and people kneeled when she walked into a room, she was satisfied. Her desire to be a queen was quelled because she knew it was in the cards already at some point down the line of inheritance. She didn't want to be Queen, she wanted to make people bow down in her presence and she got that and then some, so she didn't need to kill anyone to get there, it became her unstated destiny. But the only way for Regina to be Queen, on the other hand, was for her find ond marry another King (or marry her own father ick) ... and Cora chose Leopold for obvious reasons  she had to kill for Regina to be Queen and that was the takedown on Ava. Keep in mind that Ava/Eva and Cora would never have crossed destinies if Ava had not been such a beatch from the start. Cora had pretty much accepted her destiny until her plans changed because of Ava, Snow's mother...who betrayed her not once, but twice. Once as a snob and once as a woman who almost lost her crown to Cora only because Leopold actually DID fall in love with Cora. Cora, on the other hand, did not love Leopold or Henry ... only the power they could give to her in marriage. She heart-loved Rumpel because he gave her a different kind of power, not just the power to eat and have and be a princess/Queen, but the power to control others.

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    • Fij30jigh110 wrote:
      129.210.115.4 wrote:
      It's quite possible that king Xavier's kingdom collapsed before they could ascend to the throne, thus leaving them out of a job. Alternatively, by some twisted fairy tale logic, Eva was actually the eldest daughter, and when she married Leopold, she created a merger between their kingdoms, leaving Henry and Cora as duke and dutchess of the kingdom, but not queen and king.
      Hmm... Eva was not Henry's sister. She came from the northern kingdom, or something like that.

      When one reads the Bible in context, it's entirely possible that Ava and Henry were sister and brother -- Abraham and Sarah were, but that was back when people didn't deny and reject blood.

      All things considered, Cora could even have been Henry's sister.

      King Xavier didn't seem to be a "sainted" man who would be faithful to one woman, so just like slaveowners in America, he may have reproduced with "outside" women and then reject his own for being allegedly 'beneath' him for being born to the wrong type.

      What's the wrong type? Anything that wasn't his type unless he was boinking it.

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    • Rubelle wrote:
      What I think was, Henry Sr's dad was not a king per se. He was more of a local lord who got called king without actually being a king. Happened a lot of time. Local powerful landholders were accorded title king by their subjects without them technically being the ruler of land. Sometimes the main King would be powerful enough to subdue them, sometimes not so much and they could rule side by side, even forge alliances and sometimes the main ruling dynasty would be overthrown by such smaller ones and then they would become main ruling dynasty.

      I think something like that might have happened. But cora was quite determined for Regina to be a queen, anyway, to fullfill her own unfullfilled desire.

      What I don't understand is, if she could spin gold, why would she ever reduce to such an impoverished state, she could prolly buy any kingdom.


      Or the fact that Cora betrayed rumple and their contract made rumple mad enough to do some manipulations. Totally possible.

      Anywho, in the episode, Into the deep, regina told rumple they need to stand together against Cora and Rumple says he won in the end. To which regina replies, thats not how she tells the story. Maybe this has got to do with Cora wriggling out of their contract  and yet eventually rumple getting Cora's first born Regina. Which Regina would not  have known since she did not know the History.

      And also that Rumple got back at Cora for deceiving him. Offtopic: Rose McGowan was awesome as young Cora. She totally looked a young barbara .

      Cora couldn't spin gold - Rumpel taught her in exchange for a deal, saved her life and that's how she got a kingdom she otherwise would not have been entitled to have. Technically, Ava unwittingly made Cora a "royal" by behaving like a twit. Her messiness got flipped on her and Regina, Cora's daughter, became Queen in Ava's place.

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    • 58.185.114.117 wrote:
      I am pretty sure Eva did something either intentionally (she was quite the bitch back then) or otherwise that resulted in Cora losing her chance at being queen. This can be implied from the scene where Cora looks over Eva's dead body and says something along the line that she (Eva) took everything away from her.

      The part about Regina being next to be Queen in the final scenes can be explained by the fact that some amount of time must have passed between the time when Cora married Henry (when she was still fifth in line) and when she gave birth to Regina. During that time, some events may have happend to make Henry the next heir.

      The only reason Cora got a shot at being queen is because Ava was quite a bitch and Cora meant to have her justice day even if she had to take it by hook or by crook.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      That's true, but they took the kingdom to depose tyranny. (Yeah, I know that King George was a relatively good king that actually thought about the peasants, unlike some couple I know....)

      In the novel, I think, Snow and co actually deposed George (temp) when she searched for Charming and before she went under the sleeping curse. Following that, she awoke and they took back Snow's kingdom from Regina, however, they still had a remnant of King George's forces to face in the outlining villages.

      That's the way I see it and it would make sense if it actually happened in a few months.

      But that's a whole other topic, lol.

      (Another off-topic question is why Leopold's castle looks like that. As seen with Belle, the dungeon she was in was in one of the blade things, while Charming was underneath, lol)

      It appears there were many kingdoms and kings involved, not just one. The Enchanted Forest was the centerpiece, but Neverland was a kingdom also and Peter Pan ended up ruling over it.

      OZ was a kingdom, Agrabba was a kingdom, Arrendale was a kingdom, Wakanda is a kingdom, Rapunzel, Jasmine and Ursula -daughter of Poisedon- even had kingdoms ... some underneath the sea and in the sky.

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
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