The Swanfire/Statutory Rape discussion

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Nightlily·2/23/2018

BTW: I meant the present day event of 3B (sorry, I'm typing on my phone right now).

(Edited by Nightlily)

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CoolDudeAl·2/23/2018

Nightlily wrote:
@CoolDudeAl: If there are less than two years between 101 and 3B, and exactly twelve months between the 3A and 3B, there has to be less than a year between Emma's birthday in 101, and 3A. Plus, 209 takes place less than a year after 101, because of the title card I mentioned.

Technically wasn't the missing year only like 9 months? Based on the Snow pregancy stuff.

(Edited by CoolDudeAl)

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Touli2·2/23/2018

Ok guys these are the only facts we know about the swanfire situation, I can prove them if anyone wants me to:

Emma was either 16, 17 or 18 when she gave birth to Henry. If she and Henry share the same birthday then she was 18 when she gave birth to him, if they do not share the same birthday however then she was either 16 or 17 when she gave birth to Henry.

Nealfire escaped Neverland and arrived back in our world in the year 1991. Therefore his aging process had resumed in 1991 after being halted due to his precense in Neverland.

This is not enough information to determine whether or not Nealfire was a paedophile due to the fact he dated and had sex with Emma at the time he did. Therefore any statements that Nealfire was a paedophile due to the fact he dated and had sex with Emma at the time he did, are unproven accusations.

I believe one is innocent until proven guilty. Therefore I hereby find Neal Cassidy not guilty of the immorality he has been accused of.

(Edited by Touli2)

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Eskaver·2/23/2018

Leaving falsehoods on with speculation is not conducive to this discussion.

Emma was 17 with no evidence countering that. It’s false to say 16, 17, or 18, because there is no equivalence.

Emma and Henry’s birthday is already known. It’s false to speculate on their birthdays when we know them. It’s false to consider them to be the same day when there is overwhelming evidence that when they are and that they are not on the same day.

Words have meaning and the term pedophile shouldn’t be used in this conversation and is not being discussed here. If what was meant was the law, then it is without a doubt against the law of Oregon.

We cannot have substantive discussion when falsehoods are continuously discussed as if it were true. Lily has been displaying the key timeline events and notes on when this or that happened and we discussed the law amongst other things.

Let’s focus on the totality of facts, context, and discuss this genuinely.

(Edited by Eskaver)

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Touli2·2/23/2018

Eskaver wrote:
Leaving falsehoods on with speculation is not conducive to this discussion.
Emma was 17 with no evidence countering that. It’s false to say 16, 17, or 18, because there is no equivalence.
Emma and Henry’s birthday is already known. It’s false to speculate on their birthdays when we know them. It’s false to consider them to be the same day when there is overwhelming evidence that when they are and that they are not on the same day.
Words have meaning and the term pedophile shouldn’t be used in this conversation and is not being discussed here. If what was meant was the law, then it is without a doubt against the law of Oregon.
We cannot have substantive discussion when falsehoods are continuously discussed as if it were true. Lily has been displaying the key timeline events and notes on when this or that happened and we discussed the law amongst other things.
Let’s focus on the totality of facts, context, and discuss this genuinely.

I did not know Emma and Henry's birthdays were given. Can you show me where?

Im sorry for using the p word, i simply do not know how else to put it.

(Edited by Touli2)

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Eskaver·2/23/2018

Touli2 wrote:

Eskaver wrote:
Leaving falsehoods on with speculation is not conducive to this discussion.
Emma was 17 with no evidence countering that. It’s false to say 16, 17, or 18, because there is no equivalence.
Emma and Henry’s birthday is already known. It’s false to speculate on their birthdays when we know them. It’s false to consider them to be the same day when there is overwhelming evidence that when they are and that they are not on the same day.
Words have meaning and the term pedophile shouldn’t be used in this conversation and is not being discussed here. If what was meant was the law, then it is without a doubt against the law of Oregon.
We cannot have substantive discussion when falsehoods are continuously discussed as if it were true. Lily has been displaying the key timeline events and notes on when this or that happened and we discussed the law amongst other things.
Let’s focus on the totality of facts, context, and discuss this genuinely.

I did not know Emma and Henry's birthdays were given. Can you show me where?

Im sorry for using the p word, i simply do not know how else to put it.

Emma’s birthday is Oct 22 and Henry’s is August 15. You can check their page and it’ll show all the citations and sources.

The “p” word is missed used simply because it doesn’t mean what people think it means. In any case, someone in their early twenties falling for someone 17 isn’t when you can use that word (since literally months later, it would be totally legal everywhere).

(Edited by Eskaver)

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FrancisPaul·2/23/2018

CoolDudeAl wrote:

Nightlily wrote:
@CoolDudeAl: If there are less than two years between 101 and 3B, and exactly twelve months between the 3A and 3B, there has to be less than a year between Emma's birthday in 101, and 3A. Plus, 209 takes place less than a year after 101, because of the title card I mentioned.

Technically wasn't the missing year only like 9 months? Based on the Snow pregancy stuff.

She didn't get pregnant immediately. By the time of The Tower, when David learns about the baby, Belle is already back with then and Neal's already "dead". But when Snow announces her pregnancy to Regina, Belle arrives like it's been quite some time since they had seen each other. I always thought that Belle's journey took a while.

(Edited by FrancisPaul)

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Nightlily·2/24/2018

CoolDudeAl wrote:

Nightlily wrote:
@CoolDudeAl: If there are less than two years between 101 and 3B, and exactly twelve months between the 3A and 3B, there has to be less than a year between Emma's birthday in 101, and 3A. Plus, 209 takes place less than a year after 101, because of the title card I mentioned.

Technically wasn't the missing year only like 9 months? Based on the Snow pregancy stuff.

No. The missing year breaks down as follows:

Season 3A: One year before 3B (not part of the missing year but I'm including it nevertheless)
"New York City Serenade" flashback: One year before 3B
"Witch Hunt" flashback: One year before 3B
"Quiet Minds" flashback: One year before 3B
"The Tower" opening scene (where Snow tells David that she's pregnant): 9 months before 3B
"The Jolly Roger" flashback: 9 months before 3B
"A Curious Thing" opening scene (where Zelena announces her plans for Snow and David's child, and Belle returns to the others): 8 months before 3B
The rest of "The Tower" flashback (Charming's quest/ meeting with Rapunzel): Sometime between the opening scene of "A Curios Thing" and the casting of the second curse in the same episode (that is never stated on-screen, but Belle is back with the others, meaning that Charming's quest must take place after she returns on the opening scene of "A Curious Thing").
The rest of the "A Curious Thing" flashback, where Snow casts the new curse and brings everyone back to Storybrooke: 8 months after the opening scene and therefore 0 months before 3B.

(Edited by Nightlily)

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CoolDudeAl·2/24/2018

Nightlily wrote:

CoolDudeAl wrote:

Nightlily wrote:
@CoolDudeAl: If there are less than two years between 101 and 3B, and exactly twelve months between the 3A and 3B, there has to be less than a year between Emma's birthday in 101, and 3A. Plus, 209 takes place less than a year after 101, because of the title card I mentioned.

Technically wasn't the missing year only like 9 months? Based on the Snow pregancy stuff.

No. The missing year breaks down as follows:

Season 3A: One year before 3B (not part of the missing year but I'm including it nevertheless)
"New York City Serenade" flashback: One year before 3B
"Witch Hunt" flashback: One year before 3B
"Quiet Minds" flashback: One year before 3B
"The Tower" opening scene (where Snow tells David that she's pregnant): 9 months before 3B
"The Jolly Roger" flashback: 9 months before 3B
"A Curious Thing" opening scene (where Zelena announces her plans for Snow and David's child, and Belle returns to the others): 8 months before 3B
The rest of "The Tower" flashback (Charming's quest/ meeting with Rapunzel): Sometime between the opening scene of "A Curios Thing" and the casting of the second curse in the same episode (that is never stated on-screen, but Belle is back with the others, meaning that Charming's quest must take place after she returns on the opening scene of "A Curious Thing").
The rest of the "A Curious Thing" flashback, where Snow casts the new curse and brings everyone back to Storybrooke: 8 months after the opening scene and therefore 0 months before 3B.

Alright, that helps, thanks.

(Edited by CoolDudeAl)

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Bill456198·4/6/2022

(Submitted not to criticize, or revive discussion, but only to add my 2 cents)

From “Once Upon a Time”, season 2, episode 6 – “Tallahassee”

Emma Swan: I am not having drinks with you. You might be a pervert.

Neal Cassidy: I might be a pervert, but you're definitely a car thief.

I’m proceeding on the fact circumstance that Neal had sexual intercourse with Emma at least once in the state of Oregon (where the age of legal sexual consent was 18), during a time when Emma was 17 years old and Neal was at least 3 years older than Emma.

My first thought about this circumstance is to consider the creative intent from a show production standpoint. I doubt that there was ever any creative intent to establish a legally or morally controversial circumstance surrounding the relationship between Neal and Emma. I think that there were likely some geographical considerations that went into where to set this aspect of Emma’s backstory (and Neal’s backstory), such as wanting to set events in the western U.S. for Emma and Neal, and Vancouver, B.C., Canada later for a scene between Neal and August. It happens that among the 12 U.S. states where the age of legal sexual consent is 18, this includes Oregon, California, and Arizona (but not Washington). I think what happened was a creative “goof” from a production standpoint, and no more.

My second thought about this circumstance concerns the issue of illegality vs. immorality. It would seem that the illegality is clear, and that illegality would be ascribed to Neal, not Emma. Additionally, from my quick online search of Oregon law in this respect, mistake of age does not appear to be a defense. However, I note that among the various Oregon statutory rape laws I found by online search, the ones which DO NOT fit the facts involving Neal and Emma, ranging from most-serious criminal violations (class A felony) to least-serious criminal violations (class A misdemeanor), are as follows: (1) rape in the first degree (minor <12), (2) rape in the second degree (minor 12-13), (3) rape in the third degree (minor 14-15), (4) first degree unlawful sexual penetration (minor <12), (5) second degree unlawful sexual penetration (minor 12-13), (6) first degree sexual abuse (minor <14), and (7) second degree sexual abuse (minor 14-17 and defendant >21 who is or was the victim’s coach). The ONE remaining Oregon statutory rape law which would seem to fit the facts involving Neal and Emma is (8) third degree sexual abuse (minor 14-17 and defendant at least 3 years older). I note that this offense is classified by Oregon as a class A misdemeanor, with penalties including a fine of up to $6,250, up to one year in jail, or both. I note also that under Oregon Revised Statutes section 819.300, the offense of possession of a stolen vehicle (e.g., the yellow bug) is a class C felony, with penalties including a fine of up to $125,000, up to five years in prison, or both. Additionally, as mentioned earlier, that sexual conduct involving Neal and Emma which is legally third degree sexual abuse in Oregon and otherwise criminal in 11 other U.S. states (about 31.5% of the U.S. state population) is considered entirely legal in the other 38 states (about 68.5% of the U.S. state population). As such, although the illegality may be clear, immorality is more subjective.

(Edited by Bill456198)