Board Thread:Character Discussion/@comment-25926288-20170805235523/@comment-28162607-20170806162547

Lady Junky wrote: Again, this is exactly why this thread is a problem. Because a big part of the discussion is being monopolized by some people who refuse to admit how bad one of these characters has been comparing to the others.

"Never as bad as either of them and his redemption is much better than theirs." Hook's redemption is one of the worst of this show. Period. For many fans, he is redempted cos he is part of CaptainSwan. The end. That's not a redemption. That's "we close our eyes on what he did because he is a part of this couple".

Regina had a longer, more difficult, and more real redemption. You clearly see how it was difficult, how hard it was, how she was so tempted to go back to darkness, how she failed but eventuelly succeeded, etc... It took her more time, but Regina had an excellent redemption arc. This is something well-admitted by most of the fans today, except a small portion of a certain category. And the fact you refuse to see it is showing a lot about your opinions.

Did Hook make some "big crimes" like Regina? No. Does it make it better than her? No. This is not a competition. If you kill someone 2/3 times, you're still a killer. Saying "that woman did more than you" is not an excuse, you're still a killer. Did Hook ruined some lives? Yes, just like the two others. Killing his own father and leaving his young half bro all alone, because your father named him like your dead older brother? Brennan may have been a jerk, but Liam II asked nothing. And the fact that Nemo found him can be seen as "luck", cos he could have died of young age because of Hook. And yes, it IS implied that Hook got children for Pan, whatever you want to think about it.

Hook is no less worse than Regina or Rumple. Despite all excuses you're trying to find, it will not change that fact.

We can't have a serious discussion about why they are viewed different, when some people are basically refusing to admit how "equal" these characters can be. Sorry  I'm just laughing at "Regina's redemption is better than Hook's".

Hook turned his ship around and had no hesitation in offering his unconditional loyalty to a group of people who did not like him (including the man who murdered his lover and maimed him) and took them to and through a place that traumatised him, where he lost his only family. And then he proceeded to dig up painful memories whilst saving David, not for Emma as evidenced in his reluctance to even tell the group he did anything, and then, despite realising he felt something for Emma, immediately went to save Neal and revealed a huge personal secret to do so. Despite that he could have kept the information to himself. And then, after helping save Henry, he then risked his life to draw the shadow out in the church so Tink could capture it. And that is just 3a, in which he did way more than Regina has ever done.

He gave Ariel a tearful, heartfelt apology and made no excuses because he was so torn up over not handing an incredibly shady guy his ship. He then traded said ship (his home which had all the memories of Liam and Milah) to help Emma get back, not to get into Emma's pants but to help her and her family. Again, he did not tell anyone. Why? Because he sought no reward. He also risked his life to save Henry from Zelena and then from the flying monkeys, telling him to "Go, don't stop no matter what you hear" ie. even if I am dying, do not stop. We are only on season 3 and yet Hook's risked his own life a total of 3 times.

Now onto s4, where he admitted to being wrong when it came to Ursula and reunited her with her father, as well as giving her back a very dangerous weapon (not saying she did not have a right to it, but it was he equivalent of giving a murderer their gun back). And when his death was imminent, he did not beg for his life but for everyone else's (4a). And then of course in 4x22, he died so that Emma and Henry, two people he did not have any memory of, could succeed, on the off chance he could maybe survive in the real world.

Season 5, where he saved Snow from Arthur (5x08), and then begged Emma to kill him because, in his own words, he deserved to die. Hook begged for death. Then proceeded to choose to be mauled so that Meg could escape, when told to choose three Nevengers to keep down there he flat out refused, even when faced with the possibility of eternal torture, and had to be persuaded that he may just deserve to live after all. Then even when  Emma had left him down there he still worked to help, risking his own soul to save the book and send it to Emma, and saved the guy who killed him and started this whole mess.

Season 6, risked his life to help Belle hide from Rumple, refused to hurt Liam until Henry was there and subsequently in danger, had no hesitation in getting Henry off the Nautilus despite him not having a chance.

That is why people like him; because he actually changed.

Aside from his Dark  One stint, his backslides included punching a criminal, blackmailing Gold (which wasn't cool but also was not unforgiveable) and pointing a gun at a villain.

Regina did two good things. One was stopping the diamond in 2x22, which was simply cleaning up a mess she started, and letting Henry go in 3x11, when she did not have a choice. And no, she does not get brownie points for giving him good memories. It is not heroic to not abuse the child you abused for years.

Hook takes responsibility for his actions "I am the problem, I was weak, How could I have been so weak, I'm not sure I deserve saving, I was a villain, I was the villain in that little drama, This is about me, I just wanted to be a better man but I failed," rather than blaming them on others like Regina does -"They call be evil because of (Snow White), You made the Evil Queen (to Rumple in 5x01), the book wrote me as a villain". Then in season 6 she started talking about the Evil Queen like she was a completely separate person, and the narrative agreed, even having Snow say "WHen you-the Evil Queen-tried to kill me".

Marian's return is probably the biggest indicator of Regina's lakc of change. If Regina was actually redeemed, she'd have been happy that Marian had come back because it would mean one less death for her conscience. She'd have been grateful to Emma. Instead, she threw a fit and enslaved Sidney (who I may add, she kept as a prisoner in an asylum for over a year and forgot about him, treaing him like an animal!) in order to help her murder Marian but then she 'changed her mind' (how noble) and decided to erase her from history and rape Robin (Operation  Mongoose). She yelled at Emma for saving an innocent person's life. And the cherry on the cake was her sexually abusing Belle just for fun. That is not the actions of a hero. Throughout s4  she was doing the exact same thing the villains were doing but it was presented as okay. In s6 we saw she still has the hearts of innocent people. She still has dozens of people as slaves. That is not a redeemed character. If she had changed, she would give those people their hearts back. Not once has she shown the slightest bit of remorse, and flat out admitted she has no regrets because it got her Henry (the son she abused terribly).

In s5 she abused  Emma just for kicks, and admitted that she thinks indulging in dark impulses "feels good".

And I for one did not find Regina's "I hate being a decent person, it's so hard and it doesn't benefit me, I want to kill people!" compelling at all. Maybe it could have worked in s2 but in s5? That's just showing Regina as a sociopath. She admitted to hating being a good person because it does not benefit her. Regina's redemption is all about her, which is why it does not work. She doesn't want to be a hero, she wants the benefits of being a hero. In 5x22 she said that "if I revert, I lose everyone  I care about", she is not concerned with the fact that other people may get hurt if she reverts. She is concerned that she will suffer.

And then there is how Regina's "redemption" is filled with victim blamng;  Snow was a brat, she "helped bring the Evil Queen into the world". If Regina had changed she'd have corrected Snow and said "No Snow, you didn't, you were a child, you didn't do anything wrong, I should take the blame".

There are some lines Reg crossed that Hook did not; mass murder, child abuse, killing for fun and rape. He was never on her level. And actually changed and took responsibility for his actions.