Board Thread:Character Discussion/@comment-26346951-20150427084633/@comment-26301707-20150609204249

Eskaver wrote: Once19 wrote: I personally liked him better when he was a villain. I mean he wasn't the greatest villain ever because he didn't have magic, which, in this show is a major disadvantage. He also seemed more clever as a villain, though, in my opinion he was always more brawn than brains (not that he was stupid, just not as smart as the other villains). One of the reasons I like this show so much is because the villains (try to) use cleverness or trickery rather than brute strength. At this point, I want to roll my eyes because of his constant "I am so amazingly hot!" attitude. What gets me most is his "I am a survivor." It makes me laugh so hard. Every time he's said it, he only survives because some one else saved him or fixed things, so not sure if that counts. He just seems to be along from the ride whenever they do stuff. Not that I have a problem with the actor, he's very good at playing the part. The character just annoys me. He likes himself way way wayyyy to much. Okay that part of the rant is over.

My main problem, sorry, everyone will hate me for this, is just that I find his automatic change to the "Good Side" ridiculous. It wasn't gradual like Regina's change was (still not exactly realisticly gradual but more so). He just decided he was in love with Emma and would be good to impress her. He just doesn't seem to be good for the sake of being good, he just does it for Emma. I'd like to see what would happen if she died. Just like in season 3b, in the Enchanted Forest, he went back to being a pirate, albeit his heart wasn't in it. He plundered from people, and he didn't help Ariel the way he should have. Yes, yes, I know he felt guilty, but he still did it. Because of his "oh so pretty, pretty face" he gets instantaneous forgiveness from just about everyone. They just forgot all the times he tried to kill them. (Again, yes, I know it was pretty much the same with Regina and maybe Gold but not to the same extent.)

I'm great with him trading his ship for Emma, but they belittled the sacrifice by getting it back for him. However once more, he didn't do it to be good or save everyone, he did it to get to Emma.

Truthfully I wish Emma would stay single. Honestly, I wish that for a little while the female characters would be single. They don't need to make it seems like all the female characters need a man to be happy. Sorry off topic.....

Anyway, yes, Hook is kind of handsome, sort of I guess, not my type, but he must be because of all the people that think he is... It just doesn't make me like him. The character's attitude just offsets this for me.

(Please don't kill me, all you Hook lovers!) ;) I couldn't agree more! SInce this is a Hook thread and not a Regina or Rumple thread, I'll keep there stuff to a minimum, but they are starting to do that a bit with Regina. Some call it "whitewashing", which is ironically what happened to Rumple's heart. Regina is at fault for this as well, but most of it is because it isn't organic. Regina goes extreme, while Hook goes mild, but both do actions that aren't responded to with realistic character. No one reacts like people and they just toss words like "hero" and "villain" around. Key example: Rumple and Regina were planning to do the same exact things prior to "Heart of Gold". Both were planning to use the Author to write their happy endings. Both were going to remove others from their happy endings (Regina would have removed Marian from her husband and child, Rumple ....well, we saw what he did.) and the only reason Regina didn't go through with it was she got what she wanted! If Rumple got what he wanted, I'm sure he wouldn't do bad.......

This is what they do to Hook, Regina and now Rumple (in that order). I totally expect Belle to run back to him with little self-respect and he gets her and a child without earning it whatsoever. This is what happens with Hook and Regina. They get what they want and now are "good", "heroes", or "redeemed".

Hook being the non-magic and realistic version of Regina (Regina is the magical and over the top), Both are quite narcissitic, but I would almost say neither of their backstory warrants such narcissism.

The simple fact is that the writers (or showrunners) want their cake and eat it too. Hook is pretty much random romantic hero and pirate. Regina is that struggling borderline (and backsliding still!) person. Rumple is the most self-aware and owns up to it!

To close out my post, if Christopher Walken or Liam Neeson played Hook, I'm sure shippers would walk the plank and the character would be seen for what he truly is. Same with Regina. And if reverse for Rumple, I'm sure people would see no sins. Just like Twilight's Edward: Pretty face, but not a good person or relationship whatsoever. (NO DISCUSSING TWILIGHT!)

Yeah, I completly agree with this. The "whitewashing" has gone over the top. On a side note in my opinion, the writers have done something similar to this with the starring group. For me, it seems like for the 4th season they made almost all of the surrounding characters seem less intellegent than they were before, to make Emma seem smarter. She always needs help because she isn't used to magic and the magical world. This should be normal, she shouldn't be able to do everything by herself! It's the same thing with them giving her credit for defeating Pan, Zelena, and Cora, and Ingrid. She never defeated them! She didn't even really help that much!

Okay back on topic, I definitely agree that Regina, Rumple, and Hook make their decisions based on what they want in life. I think most things they do are just smaller goals to get what they want. I, however also believe that for Regina and Gold, they can't seem to satisfy their wants in life. With Regina she wanted Henery, then when she got him she wanted Robin. Now that she kind of has Robin, she'll probably want another child. With Gold he wanted power, Belle, and to be free of the danger. Well he had two of these things, then he was in reach of the third and he grabbed for the third one. These people win what they wanted, and then they decide to gamble what they have for something else. So I must admit, Hook doesn't really seem to have that problem. He seems content with Emma. (Until he sees something else he wants of course!) I think this is one of a villain's (or former villain's) many flaws. They can't accept what they have, they need more.

And, of course, they whole shipping thing creates another problem as well like you said. I'd love to say I wasn't invested at all in the show because of the ships, but I'm afraid I would be lying. However, I do like it for more than just the ships because I liked the original season just as much when there weren't really any ships.

I think the fan base is part of what contributes to this problem. I have to say that I think the producers would be unbelievably stupid to stop with, as you call it, Once Upon a Ship because the fans love it! Why would they stop making Hook "dashing, brave, handsome, and loving," (more like irritating in my opinion!) when much of the fan base laps it up? These characters are seen for their strengths rather than their weaknesses (at least by their fans, with the possible exception of Gold) which causes everyone to think they are good (or in Hook's case "extreamly morally righteous, sadly previously misfortunate people). Which just isn't the case! These were very bad people! People need to think of that when they evaluate these characters. Hook and Regina (usually) try to be good people, now, yes, but they weren't before.

In my opinion, one of the big parts of this show is that absolutly none, of the characters are 100% good or 100% evil, other than maybe Pan or Zelena. The villains are actually most accepting of this fact. We constantly see what morally righteous airs Snow, Charming, and Emma give themselves. They act like they have never done anything wrong. With Emma she thinks her family are always "the good guys". It's like "Hmm, do you remember like 10 or 11 years ago when you ROBBED people for a living?" I mean great she served her time, but she still did something wrong, just like everyone else in the world.

So, yes, fans look at these characters because of the way they look and forget the rest. The entire "happy endings are given to those who deserve them." just went straight out the window.

Once they get what they want, of course, they won't be villains! Why would they?

This was kind of of topic, but it does all wrap back around to Hook. Probably. Most of it anyway…

So to sum it up and put it in place: I think many, if not most, of the characters on this show aren't thought of for what they really are, but for how they appear, how attractive they are, and how many fans they happen to have. They are looked at either through a clear scope that shows the truth, they are looked at through rose-tinted glasses, or they are completly skewed based on personal bias. Because the characters on this show are extremely polarizing they aren't looked at in a realistic way.

Tying this in to Hook, because people think he is attractive, they decided to forget what a horrible person he was (partially justified or not), and pretend that he is a prince-like hero. They might do this to all the characters but specifically for him. (I'm sure I sometimes forget Regina's sins when I'm thinking about how cool she is after she blasts something to dust with a fireball.)

That is a frighteningly accurate analogy between Hook and Edward. Hook is 100% the Edward of Once Upon a Time, so much so it's almost scary.

That went way off topic, sorry, it makes sense to me, but maybe not to everyone else.

P.S. I think they have done this a lot recently to Robin Hood as well.