Board Thread:Character Discussion/@comment-25926288-20151211170125/@comment-1916997-20170804215743

Aine1989 wrote: CoolDudeAl wrote: Aine1989 wrote: CoolDudeAl wrote: Aine1989 wrote: Eskaver wrote: CoolDudeAl wrote: You didn't happen to create a different user, just so you could drag up a long inactive thread, just so you could defend Captain Swan more, did you? Lol, I think it may just be a coincedence.

However to address the points, it's all about framing. Saying Regal Believer is unhealthy is pretty nonsensical as they have had a great relationship since season 3.

Timeline: Regian used and lied actively to Henry for a few months (September to March), she tried to change for him, backslide into bad habits, then from that point forward recognized how important Henry was to her.

I know some would point to "Hey, Regina told Henry she didn't want to see him!" However, I guess they didn't get the narrative contrast that was going on because practically minutes later Henry comes home and Regina welcomes him in happily.

I could frame CS as Hook trying to kill/indirectly kill and betray Emma for months. However, I don't use that any more than Regina's lying to Henry because the relationship got better.

Basically, it appears to simply be favoritism. It's favoritism/hatred + "Look at what they did in the past", which would pretty much condemn every couple and relationship on the show. A 'great relationship' in which Regia neglects  Henry because her week long boyfriend broke up with her, tells him that he is not enough to make her happy and all his time revolves around making her happy. And the fact that in 4x02 Henry had to beg to be let in to his own home and she only did so because he said he believed in her is all kinds of messed up. You don't get to take a day off from being a parent because you're sad and your child should not have to beg to be let into his own home (even saying "I miss my room!")

In s4 Henry was worried she would go evil again because she lost Robin. That is not healthy. He spends all of s4 telling her it wasn't her fault, that the book was wrong for portraying her as a villain. Hell when Marian is dying he says "isn't that a good thing?" Henry is so foucssed on making sure Regina is happy that he argues that a woman's death is a good thing. I am in the camp that he did not actually believe that, he just said what Regina wanted to hear, but it was still disturbing to hear him say it.

All throughout s4 Henry is working iwth Regina to help rape Robin. When he is with Emma and Killian they play video games or go sailing, doing things that make Henry happy. Regina does things that make her happy.

So yes, Regal Beliver is a very good example of how True Love =/= healthy relationship. Whether or not the writers did it on purpose is up for debate. So your points are fair, but if you are going to be that hard on Regina, you should be that hard on all the characters, which includes Emma and Hook. I'm going to do Hook, because he is the easier example, but Emma has flaws as well. Anyway, let's look at some of the things Hook has done:

- Murdered people without good reason (probably the various "ring people", and definitly Robert, David's dad)

- Stole from people (as in piracy), because the king was corrupt and his brother died as a result '''As did Snow. If it is bad when Hook did it it is bad when Snow did it.'''

- Let a woman come with him on his ship, even though he knew she was abandoning her small child '''He helped an abused woman leave a toxic environment, leavint the child with whom she thought was a capable guardian, and intended to come back when he was old enough. Amazing that a common anti Hook argument is that he was not misogynistic and saw Milah as a person.'''

- Wound up taking care of said child later, until they had a fight, and he let the Lost Boys take the child away '''I mean yea that was bad but Bae wanted to leave. The only other option was keep him there against his will.'''

- Takes a mermaid's singing voice (that is very important to her), because he didn't get what he wanted

- Makes many crude sexual remarks to women he has just met

And we can't say that Hook has changed, because Regina has also changed, so then the points about her would be equally null and void.

'''Regina has NOT changed. The moment she lost Robin she went right back to being evil. She sexually assaulted Belle and enslaved Sidney. She spent all of season 4 plotting to rape Robin. She admitted that the only reason she has not gone back to the dark side isbecause it will have negative consequences for her; that's not a change of heart.'''

'''The difference is that Emma does not whitewash Hook the way Henry does to Regina. It is not about who had the worst past. It is about how Henry's life revolves around making Regina happy which is not healthy!'''

I would argue that Regina has changed, since she is not going around killing random people because she wants to find Snow White. But that is neither here nor there. My bigger point is all the characters have flaws (yes, even Snow, Charming, Emma, and Henry), and that is partially what makes the story interesting. No one wants perfect characters that have never made any mistakes, because that is not interesting to watch. Basically, we shouldn't be putting any of these characters on a pedestal. Sexually assaulting abuse survivors just to piss off someone and keeping a man as a literal slave so he can help you kill a woman is not 'changing'. She has stopped killing people because she thnks it will end up bad for her. That is not change.

There is a difference between flawed characters but inherently good characters such as Emma and Killian and abusers like Regina. Emma and Killian make mistakes but work through them and are at their core, good people. Regina is, at her core, selfish and this makes her toxic to Henry.

Also I'll just say it; it is incredibly interesting that my points against Regina were from s4, when she was supposedly 'redeemed' yet yours were from s2 when Hook was a villain. Change is change, regardless of reasoning. I would argue Hook changed mostly because of Emma. If he haden't met Emma, he would have probably continuned on his revenge path of kill Rumple, and then continue to be a pirate, stealing from people and killing them, etc. Maybe he and Cora would have taken over SB. As for my points, those were just the easier ones to remember, but Hook did bad things later in the series as well. Examples: Season 3: Attemted to kill Black Beard (and thought he did), even though it would mean Ariel might never find Eric. Season 6: Lied and tried to cover up about killing Emma's grandfather (which, as I pointed out, was a kill for no good reason). I'm sure I'm missing other things as well, but I'm not going to continue pointing things out, if you aren't going to admit that things Hook does are just as bad Regina does, because it's just going in circles.