Board Thread:Character Discussion/@comment-4467206-20161126101444/@comment-25926288-20161126235744

I think it's dangerous to think that Rumple's morality and redemption leans even partially on Belle.

Rumple is a grown man capable of his own decisions. She has no obligation to do a single thing. She doesn't need to love him or give him anything to fight for because she's a grown woman too and she makes her own decisions. She showed Rumple love in their marrage (which was founded on a lie) and he did evil. So, now she doesn't show love, he's evil. Guess what's similar?! Rumple's evilness is independent of Belle. Rumple has to want to change himself in order to change. The whole idea that you can go in and change a person is problematic. The person can only change is they want to (or magic!).

Hook being good is not related to Rumple being evil. I mean, I totally expect Hook to go to Rumple in the upcoming episode and threaten/ridicule/or whatever he does to Rumple. It's hardly Hook and this is coming from someone that doesn't really like Hook.

If you have an issue, then it's with the writers and whatever "lessons" they are teaching. The way they redeem characters is something I don't agree with. It's:

1. Admit you're evil. See that it's a problem.

2. Try a little.

3. Backslide.

4. Do one heroic deed or try to anyway.

5. Redeemed (until you realize you didn't get everything you want, but you can still call yourself a hero, even though you saved noone.)

This affects all characters and instead of pristine white and black, or the shadowy, smoky grey, we get a bad watercolor rendition.

Snow and David: They are pretty self-centered. They are always sacrificial. They never apologized for their mistakes, only when they realized danger was coming. They are the best of the grey characters, even with the wonky contrived plot.

Regina: She's still suffering from some victim complex. She's changed, but the only real thing that's changed is that she's not lonely and murdery and around decent people. She's made great development, but it's twisted development because she never gets around to apologizing and righting the many wrongs because the plots in the way.

Hook: He's the more realistic villain of the three because no magic, but it's very clear that it all really hinged on Emma. I don't think until recently has his "goodness" unhinged from Emma. I mean, if you are truly analytical despite your feelings about Hook, you'd see that Hook doesn't think he's changed much either and that he's a very weak, weak man. It's mostly everything arounds him that calls him a hero when the character doesn't agree (which is weird because you'd think the writers know). Hook's villainy is also smaller in scale and to the number of people, while Rumple and Regina have thousands.

Emma: She's a tricky issue, but she's slowly morphing into her parents a bit with her selfishness. But honestly this is also realistic given her past. So, she's probably up top, but she's get dragged through weird plots that make her act weird.

Rumple: He's the series villain. They decided that late on because that much is clear because he literally has no other purpose (I do wonder if ABC/Disney doesn't want them to kill Batb). I like Robert Carlyle, so as long as he's happy, I'm happy. But after 4 you could tell how he doesn't feel the same way about his character from the rare interviews, etc. Season 4x01 final scene and onwards buthered his character sending it into redux. Maybe he's cursed to redo his arc from his past over and over and over and it gets progressively worse.

Belle: She's fine, but she's jumped from naive, clever girl, to hopeless dimwit that happens to like books.

All in all: Rumple is the series villain. Belle holds no part in this. Rumple has to want to change in order for him to change.