Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-25926288-20160328005933/@comment-26159109-20160409141333

Aine1989 wrote: Farerb wrote: Aine1989 wrote: Farerb wrote: Aine1989 wrote: Farerb wrote: This was the weekest episode in 5B.

A few points:

While I'm glad that Emma was blamed for being selfish. I wish it came from other characters and I don't feel like it was portrayed as something serious that she needs to learn from, basically it was used as a "clue" that something is wrong with Liam and not as observing some kind of flaw with Emma. By the end of the episode, Emma didn't learn anything or didn't grow as a character.

In addition, while I agrre that Emma has become selfish, I still think that she is too good for a murdering jerk who still keeps things from his victims. I really don't get why they need to portray Hook as a martyr, he is not a martyr, he has done horrible despicable things, stop whitewash him. It's as if they are insecure about what the viewers think about him so they have to shove what a great guy he is down our throat.

Moreover, the excuse of Hook doing all those horrible things because Emma pissed him off is not acceptable. This is yet again a depiction of the battered wife syndrom. She wasn't balmed for that though. He was. The whole of that episode was showing that it was his weakness.

Also the show does not whitewash him. That would be acting like his villainy never happened. What does happen is he develops. When have they ever delt with his past crimes whether they were in flashbacks or season 2? When was he confronted for bullying a cripple? For selling a young boy to people who could have hurt him? For helping killing a village and using their bodies as a cover? For sexually assault almost every woman on the show ("when I job you with my sword...")? For leaving 4 innocent women to die (just like Hans did in Frozen) ? For kidnapping Archie? For shooting Belle? (oh wait that did happen, it was "sorry?!?"), for allowing a man die for his ship? For using Belle as a means to blackmail Rumple instead of warning her?

All of those were ignored and swept under the rug thus whitewashing him. He was a villain in season 2 and all of a sudden without any build up he was into Emma and "good" or "redeemed" in season 3. They constantly keep telling us he's redeemed and he's a hero, but it was never shown and he keeps acting like an ungreatful jerk. The only ones I can give you are blackmailing Rumple (which he confessed to but that was glossed over becaue Emma had to deal with Regina and he did face consequences for via heart ripping), Cora (in which he was nearly left to die but he was useful to them) and Archie.

Bullying a cripple? When Rumple nearly killed him.

'''Rumple never nearly killed him when he came begging for his wife while Hook laughed it off. Both of them are at fault in this fued which no longer makes any sense.'''

Selling Bae? Neverland was the only place he could go since the JR couldn't leave and he did make up for it by taking the SB crew to, through and off NL to save Henry.

'''He can leave Neverland as we saw in 416, but regardless, it doesn't mean he had to sell Bae to Pan. The fact that he chose to come back in 222, after he decided to let anyone else die, because he felt remorse about Bae was nice, but they tossed it in the garbage and changed the motivation to be about Emma instead which ultimately makes his decision in 222 meaningless.'''

Leaving 4 innocent women to die (despite that one of them had just betrayed him and left HIM to die). When he was fought and nearly killed by one of them.

'''Emma never left Hook to die. If she wanted him dead she would have just told Anton to do so. She left him to be released later so he would not follow them.'''

Sexually assaulting nearly every woman on the show? Really? I didn't know that innuendo=assault and Emma=every woman. Good to know.

Emma, Mulan, Aurora, Snow (twice) and Belle.

DID YOU EVEN WATCH THE JOLLY ROGER? HE RAN AFTER ARIEL, TEARFULLY AND HEARTFELTLY APOLOGISED TO HER, WAS TORN APART WITH GUILT AND WAS SLAPPED IN THE FACE FOR IT!!!!

'''Because ultimately he decided that his ship was more important than saving a man's life. He never tried to help Ariel from the goodness of his heart, all he wanted was his ship and he "helped" her until it no longer suited him.'''

And yes there was build up to his redemption and it had nothing to do with Emma. By watching the episode, it is clear that he went to NL because he was still guilty over selling Bae and wanted to make up for it "Maybe I just needed reminding that I could,"

'''like I said it is meaningless if they tossed it to garbage and retconned it to be about Emma. In fact, all his "redemption" relies on Emma and her affection, when she's out of the picture he longer feels the need to do what's right as we saw in 3B in the missing year.'''

And he is never shown to be a hero? Remember that time he took the SB crew to the place he hated the most, while putting up with continual crap from them? '''why should they trust him after what he did to them? After trying to kill them? After attacking David? After sexually assault both Snow and Emma? Trust is not built solely on one good decision.''' Remember when he saved David's life (and didn't want anyone to know)? which would have been great if he hadn't demanded a kiss from Emma afterwards. Remember when he told them Neal was alive and revealed something incredibly personal to save him? I'll grant you this one. Remember when he put his life at risk to draw out the shadow? No. He was busy fighting with Neal on Emma while their child was in danger and Emma had to save both of them from their stupidity and later he made a disgusting comment towards Emma. Remember when he traded his home so Emma would have a chance to get back to her family and didn't tell her until she kept asking him? Remember when he protected Henry from the flying monkeys, telling him "Don't stop no matter what you hear"-meaning 'even if you hear me dying, don't stop.' Remember when Rumple was going to kill him and he begged for everyone else to be spared and not him? Remember when he confessed his blackmail to Emma and said "I hope you never forgive me." Remember when he sacrificed himself in 4x22, even when he was written as a coward? Remember when he broke out of his chains and stopped Arthur from killing Snow? Remember when he would have rather died than become the Dark One? Remember when he sacrificed himself to stop the Dark One's plan? Remember when he let himself to bashed up by Cerberus to let Meg escape? Remember when he chose to be lowered into the River of Lost Souls rather than condemning anyone else? Yeah, he's obviously so selfish.

'''I can comment on the rest of your points, but I got tired and don't have enough time. It seems to me like you either forgot about season 2 or bought all the retcons that were made on Hook's character that disregard everything that happened in season 2.'''

Is his redemption perfectly written? Sadly no, but it is by far one of the best on this show.

'''The writers don't know how to do redemption arcs. It's not about  forgetting what you did and start do good, even though he hasn't. Redemption is about atonements, amends and forgiveness (not Hook forgiving himself crap, but the people whom he wronged forgiving him).''' My comments are in bold. Rumple has now nearly killed him TWICE and conned him into a fake suicide. Pretty sure some of that was to do with the fact he was mean to him.

He can only leave when Pan lets him and Bae was pretty darn desperate to go. Meaning he could either sell him to Pan (who keeps the Lost Boys alive and therefore ensure the safety of his crew) or have Bae go for a nice lil swim.

How does it render his action "meaningless"? What, people can't care about more than one person? Once he started liking Emma he suddenly stopped caring about Bae? And his redemption is about both, plus wanting to geniunely be a better person.

The missing year showed that he tried to go back to being a villain but couldn't, as shown in him being torn apart with guilt over Ariel. And if his redemption 'solely relies on Emma' why didn't he say "Oh hey I traded my ship, you know my home, to get you back to your fam!" in order to win her affection?

The SB didn't have to trust him (although he had given up a 300 year vendeta and allowed them use of his services and his home to save a boy they just met) but they could have been a little civil towards him. When David started the "you'll never get my daughter" treatment he could've just gone 'Know what, screw y'all, bye.' But he didn't. Furthermore, he refused to take Pan's deal. My point was that even though he had full opportunity to take advantage of them and leave, he didn't.

'Demanded'? Um, okay. I mean he tapped his lips, smirked and said "perhaps gratitude is in order now." Funnily enough, Emma was the one who kept talking to him when he was pretty much saying 'Leave me alone.' And then SHE grabbed HIM and proceeded to smooch.

I think for the shadow, you're talking about a different thing. I'm talking about when SB when they were in the church and he ran out to be a distraction for it.

Also, on that note, at least he admitted they were being idiots and made up with Neal.

Oh of course the oh-so-awful 'when I win your heart, and I will win it, it will be because you want me.' How dare he want Emma to be with him on her own terms. Horrible.

Amends-he has made amends with all the people he can. Ariel-he gave her a heartfelt apology (well he thought it was her) and helped her look for Eric. Ursula-gave her back her voice and reconciled her with her father. Neal-saved his life, saved his son, apologised for being an idiot over Emma. Belle-protected her and comforted her when she felt crappy because her asshole of a husband lied to her. Aurora-saved her heart, risking his own life to do so. The SB crew-saved their lives 3/4 times  now (and dying three times to do so).

Forgiveness-Well clearly he has been forgiven!

And finally, I do very well remember season 2, I just appreciate Killian's character development (cause that's what it is,  not 'retconning.') Well, this has become a rabbit hole argument about Hook and I have already said my opinion numerous times. Here is a nice thread you should read about Hook and his relationship with Emma and unhealthy it is: http://onceuponatime.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:256605